Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile

[Evan Burton]

Prof Fetzer,

Being ignorant of JFK matters, I would feel uncomfortable trying to decide what is relevant, what is not, etc. I have asked other mods - more knowledgeable about the JFK theories - to consider your request.

I have no problem removing clear breaches of the Forum rules, but sometimes we mods can be believed to censoring or stifling lively discussion if we act when we think it is warranted but others do not. The sheer volume of posts and views to this thread has made us tend to adopt the later attitude and if we have been reticent in our obligations, I apologise and hope members will understand.

SPECIAL REQUEST TO JOHN SIMKIN AND EVAN BURTON ABOUT HIJACKING THREADS

John and Evan,

Anyone who has followed this thread is aware that Josiah Thompson and Mike Williams have no

knowledge or interest in the subject of this thread but are here for the plain and simple reason

of wanting to attack, ridicule, and belittle me, regardless of the merits of their case. They have

hijacked this thread devoted to Judyth Vary Baker, which is both unprofessional but also easily

predicable for those with any familiarity with their character. This conduct on their part--which

I inadvertently encouraged by responding to one of Mike Williams' posts--not only undermines

the efforts of those who are seriously concerned with Judyth's credibility but sets a very poor

example for other threads where, if this kind of conduct is tolerated here, it may be expected

to occur on other threads at other times for other reasons. I therefore formally request that a

neutral party--Evan Burton would be fine!--review the past 100 posts or so and remove them

from this thread and add them to some other. I know that Williams and Thompson created a

thread, "Fetzer and Ballistics 101", for the obvious reasons. That might be a suitable location

for these posts, since they are assailing me, often in relation to questions of ballistics. I have

no problem with being attacked: it goes with the territory! But it is extremely unfair to me and

to Judyth and to everyone else, such as Jack White, Michael Hogan, Pamela Brown, David Lifton

Douglas Weldon, Stephen Roy, Pat Speer, Gregory Burnham, Dean Hagerman, Barb Junkkarinen,

and many others--to have the thread taken over by parties with no serious interest in its subject.

I therefore request in the interest of fair-play that irrelevant posts, including mine, be moved to

another location, where the parties are welcome to continue to assail me to their heart's content.

With appreciation,

Jim

[Evan Burton]

Mike,

You have referred to Prof Fetzer's military service, and his character in this thread. Please do NOT question it again or your posts will be made invisible and you may be made subject to moderation. By all means attack his ideas, his claims, and prove them incorrect or suspect... but motivations regarding past periods of his life and honesty on this thread will not be tolerate.

Play the ball, not the man.

If you believe you have clear evidence of deception by a Forum member then raise it with a moderator, and seek the most appropriate way forward.

Thank you.

Can this man not be honest about anything?

Professor who do you think you are fooling?

I ask again, why did you turn your back on your Country and your men, when they needed you most?

[Barb Junkkarinen]

A question for Judyth ...

What were you told about the use of a particle accelerator during the summer in

NO ... and who told you about it? Did you ever visit the hospital where Haslam says it was located ... and perhaps even see it?

Thanks,

Barb :-)

[Evan Burton]

Let me make this clear: do not question any member's motives regarding military service, in any theatre, why they served or they did not serve. It is STRICTLY a member's personal choice and NOTHING to do with the various arguments put forward.

As a serving military member of near 20 years service, I will take great offence if anyone is questioned - regardless of what decisions they made.

[Jack White]

JVB is quite an accomplished tap-dancer.

The time of day is 7:54 a.m.

Jack

JUDYTH RESPONDS:

Perhaps Adele Edisen was not familiar, as I was, with "white" Cubans and "black" Cubans.

I shook hands with Dr. Ochsner when he came to Shands Hospital in Gainesville, Florida,

when they were fund-raising for new medical equipment, in 1962. He gave me no particular

attention. The meeting was held in the hospital's medical library conference room and I simply

happened to be in the medical library when the meeting took place.

I had reported this slight encounter with Dr. Ochsner only to Ed Haslam (long ago) and to Nigel

Turner...also, to Howard and Martin Shackelford....but perhaps I mentioned it to Edisen. There

has never been room in the book for the Shands encounter, brief as it was, but I believe this is

where Adele and I might have misunderstood each other.

I definitely did state that I thought I might have seen Dr. Rivera in the Tulane Medical Library,

in the stacks--that area where you are not allowed to check out books, or at least, I was not.

I was trying to be helpful. I was never sure and told her that.

Since my description was wrong, I obviously did not see him after all. The man I remember was

not very tall and was nervous and wore glasses, all of which I can still recall. He spoke Spanish

to the lady at the desk and to somebody at the elevator. I do not recall him being dark-skinned.

     

This is his photo. You decide! Many Cubans are 'blacks" and of course I

meant he was not a "black." Here is another photo, but it is very grainy.

   

HERE IS ANOTHER PHOTO OF HIM. AGAIN, I CONSIDER THIS A 'WHITE'

PERSON. BELOW ARE SOME PHOTOS OF 'DARK-SKINNED' CUBANS:

 

I had many anti-Castro Cuban friends. They considered themselves to be WHITE.

The eastern end of Cuba is full of former black slaves. They are the "dark skinned" Cubans, as in the

photos above.

Adele Edisen believes that Dr. Rivera was "dark-skinned" -- but she obviously does not know that black

Cubans are "dark-skinned" and that Dr. Rivera considered himself--as do I, "white."

What else did Adele get wrong that Jack White thinks is important enough to use to denounce me?

Edisen also has the impression that I said Ochsner introduced him to me. HOWEVER, DR. RIVERA WAS

MENTIONED IN A PRIVATE INTERVIEW WITH DR. OCHSNER at Charity Hospital. While he introduced me,

insofar as making me aware of him, because I had to go to the east Louisiana Mental Hospital, the intro

was NOT not face-to-face. She may have got that impression, but she misunderstood me.

I told her I had the medical library card (Dave Ferrie's, issued by Ochsner Clinic, for use there).

Ochsner never introduced me to anybody: he even interviewed me and Lee separately. But because I go

off track sometimes, perhaps it came across to Adele that way.

I've prayed about this, and I was pretty certain I had seen Rivera at the Tulane University Medical Library.

I described him as wearing glasses and being a nervous person. Note that in the common photos available

he is not wearing glasses, but he is wearing glasses in his military photo..

I do believe he was mentioned to me as being in the library, Perhaps one of the ladies at the desk told me,

or pointed him out --I make friends easily and we became rather chatty.

Be that as it may, I was trying to give Adele every scrap of information from memory that I had. Ochsner

did not introduce him to me. I insist that he was "white."

I do believe I might have told Edisen that Ochsner sometimes visited the Tulane Medical Library, as he wrote

many papers.

I also dimly recall that the person I thought was Rivera was standing by the elevator and also in the stacks.

Somebody told me it was Dr. Rivera, and we muight have exchanged a nod or something.

JVB

[Jack White]

Question for Judyth:

You say this was Dr. Rivera. Was he also a naval officer?

The time of day is 8:21 CST.

Jack

[John Dolva]

Exactly.

[Greg Burnham]

Mike,

Just for the record, I agree that Jim has also crossed the line, IMO. In fact, Jim admitted that himself when he recommended that the irrelevant posts be removed, including his own.

I have been friends with both Jim and Jack for over a decade. So watching them bicker is kinda yucky. But, Jim drew first personal blood with Jack, too, IMO. And it was not appropriate. However, Jim reacted to what he perceived as a personal attack on Judyth -- with his own personal attack on Jack. Unfortunately, that really is what happened and how the nastiness began. Perhaps all "personal" attacks, even of folks not currently posting themselves (JVB) should have been stopped before the temperature rose to its current level.

As it is, we seem to have a "pile on" effect, where those, like you, who even admit to only having a very narrow field of expertise (ballistics, that does NOT include sufficient knowledge about JVB) are weighing in to the discussion and doing so with considerable force. So, while I agree that both sides have crossed the line, one should not expect that a person will remain non-defensive when a mob is attempting to back them into a corner.

Moreover, I think the only reason you injected yourself into this thread is because you have a bone to pick with Jim on another topic relating to ballistics, which is why this thread has been steered away from JVB and re-directed to ballistics. IOW: Hijacked.

I think it is unreasonable for anyone to think that thread topics won't drift sometimes, but there is a difference between drifting and steering.

[Barb Junkkarinen]

Question for Judyth:

You say this was Dr. Rivera. Was he also a naval officer?

The time of day is 8:21 CST.

Jack

Good catch, Jack. That is a picture of a Naval officer. Dr. Jose Rivera was, indeed, Army.

And go figure all her talk (long explanatory post on pg 192) about *Cubans* being

light/dark/white/black and all the pics

accompanying what I believe you correctly termed a "tap dance"...

Dr. Jose Rivera was born in Peru.

There are several articles about Rivera from different ranks of his career starting in message #92 on the Ed Forum at:

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http:/...%26tbs%3Disch:1

Bests,

Barb :-)

Edited May 21, 2010 by Barb Junkkarinen

[John Dolva]

Jose might be a cover name, Anne, Linda and Natalie are not exactly spanish

[Jack White]

Good catch, Jack. That is a picture of a Naval officer. Dr. Jose Rivera was, indeed, Army.

If she shows us a naval officer and claims it is Rivera, how does that affect the credibility of her

other claims? And her comparisons of Cubans was total non sequitur, since Rivera was Peruvian.

She forgets that Adele was with Rivera on numerous occasions, while Judyth admits she only

saw from a distance a person she was told was Rivera. So Adele would know him much better

than JVB. I have sent the photo to Adele for comment.

Jack

[Barb Junkkarinen]

Jose might be a cover name, Anne, Linda and Natalie are not exactly spanish

Looks like he was just about 18 when he came to the U.S. to go to college. and like he married

an American girl, not unusual for the kids to have American names, me thinks.

Bests,

Barb :-)

[Barb Junkkarinen]

Good catch, Jack. That is a picture of a Naval officer. Dr. Jose Rivera was, indeed, Army.

If she shows us a naval officer and claims it is Rivera, how does that affect the credibility of her

other claims? And her comparisons of Cubans was total non sequitur, since Rivera was Peruvian.

She forgets that Adele was with Rivera on numerous occasions, while Judyth admits she only

saw from a distance a person she was told was Rivera. So Adele would know him much better

than JVB. I have sent the photo to Adele for comment.

Jack

Good, Jack. Could you also ask her again what she recollects Judyth told her, if anything, about

meeting Rivera ... having been introduced to him by Ochsner? Judyth's explanation below doesn't make much sense, imo.

In the long tap expanation post on page 192, Judyth says:

"Edisen also has the impression that I said Ochsner introduced him to me. HOWEVER, DR. RIVERA WAS

MENTIONED IN A PRIVATE INTERVIEW WITH DR. OCHSNER at Charity Hospital. While he introduced me,

insofar as making me aware of him, because I had to go to the east Louisiana Mental Hospital, the intro

was NOT not face-to-face. She may have got that impression, but she misunderstood me."

He "introduced" her to him .... by making her aware of him when she and Ochsner were alone? Please.

And what does having "introduced" Judyth to him have to do with her having to go to the mental hospital

in Jackson?

Judyth also said:

"....I was pretty certain I had seen Rivera at the Tulane University Medical Library.

I described him as wearing glasses and being a nervous person. Note that in the common photos available

he is not wearing glasses, but he is wearing glasses in his military photo."

But, as we now know, that's not Rivera in the military photo.

Bests,

Barb :-)

Edited May 21, 2010 by Barb Junkkarinen

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

JUDYTH REPLIES TO JACK ABOUT THE MYSTERIOUS PERUVIAN ARMY OFFICER

Good catch, Jack. That is a picture of a Naval officer. Dr. Jose Rivera was, indeed, Army.

If she shows us a naval officer and claims it is Rivera, how does that affect the credibility of her

other claims? And her comparisons of Cubans was total non sequitur, since Rivera was Peruvian.

== I showed other photos besides that one. I thought it was him, too. So what? it was many years ago. I went to the Internet to seek photos of Rivera...as I recollected a man who was NOT a Negro...thought he was a Cuban. Half the people in New Orleans who spoke Spanish were either Cuban or from Mexico. If anything, this should serve to prove I did not frantically 'do research" on Rivera before speaking to Edisen. I couild have, if I had been dishonest, and got it all 'correct,' such as that he was from Peru, BUT NOBODY EVER TOLD ME THAT IN 1963. I simply related to Edisen what I remembered, sparse as it was. I did the best I could to rely on memory alone. However, I was not trying to look things up and then invent something. Besides the 'wrong' photo, I did show two others that were on the Internet. .

Be that as it may, I thought he was Cuban...has nothing to do with credibility...I never talked to the man and simply had the impression he was Cuban.. I was giving Adele as much information as I could remember in an effort to support her, for I, too, knew that LHO was to move into his apartment ahead of time: he installed me at 1032 Marengo a week before moving into his apartment on Magazine St. He knew he was going to live at 4905 Magazine when he moved me to my apartment. My sole desire in talking to Adele was to support her as much as I could with what I knew.

She could have talked to me about her objections. Perhaps then she would see that I thought he was Cuban -- nobody ever told me his nationality -- and indeed, I did not look up his life story when I accessed his photos. I do not "do research" on such things as this because my contact and knowledge was so very slight, and 'doing research' would have contaminated the memory I had.

So I did not even look at his biography..

Besides the apartment, that Edisen knew about, I also knew that Rivera had been in New Orleans that summer and had been to the Tulane Medical Library. My sole desire was to support her by assuring her that he had been in New Orleans that summer. She could have spoken to me about her concerns. It would have been the polite thing to do. ==JVB

She forgets that Adele was with Rivera on numerous occasions, while Judyth admits she only

saw from a distance a person she was told was Rivera. So Adele would know him much better

than JVB. I have sent the photo to Adele for comment.

Jack

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

JUDYTH REPLIES TO BARB JUNKKARINEN ABOUT A MYSTERIOUS PERSON

I sent some photos found on the Internet --two of them were correct, one was not--and how did that happen?--It was because I did NOT 'do research'-- I knew very little about Rivera and did not think it was honest to 'read about' him. I thought the photo was of him in younger days....My goal was simply to keep my memory uncontaminated.

Therefore, I did not read his biography. That would have given me information I had never had about him. From my memories in 1963, almost everybody who was Hispanic in New Orleans was from Cuba or Mexico. I am being criticized for trying to stick with my memory instead of reading all about the man.

However, my response to Edisen was also based on the supposition that he was Cuban. And Cubans were divided into "whites" and "negroes." He was obviously NOT a "negro" and that is what I conveyed to her, based on the belief that he was a Cuban.

That should have told her that I did not 'do research' on the man, but simply relied on my memory.

Of course I have done additional research on those I knew well, having sometimes to back up what I knew with what was available. For example, I stated that Dave Ferrie and Lee were the same height but when challenged, I asked for access to Ferrie's autopsy to prove it.

On the other hand, I knew nothing about Rivera except the slight amount of information I was able to convey to Edisen. She received my uncontaminated memory. That was my goal. I replied to her question about skin color based on my knowledge of CUBANS not Peruvians. All she had to do was to honestly tell me her concerns about my answer, I would have gone into more detail--that Cubans were thus divided by race--and she would have realized I thought he was a Cuban. Then she would have understood why I said so clearly that he was "white" (not a Cuban Negro). Instead, she decided I did not see him, though I am pretty sure I did.==

JVB