Jump to content
The Education Forum

Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile


Guest James H. Fetzer

Recommended Posts

Guest James H. Fetzer

JUDYTH REPLIES TO JACK WHITE ABOUT ADELE EDISEN AND HER ALLEGATIONS

NOTE: Judyth has discussed her relationship with Mary Ferrell in earlier posts, which is not addressed

here. The remarks attributed to Adele about Dr. Jose Rivera are at odds with her personal experiences.

JUDYTH RESPONDS:

I'M SO UPSET. ADELE EDISEN IS CLAIMING THAT I TOLD HER ALTON OCHSNER INTRODUCED ME TO

DR. JOSE RIVERA AT THE TULANE MEDICAL SCHOOL LIBRARY. THE FACT IS THAT I ONLY MET OCHSNER

AT CHARITY HOSPITAL. I HAD A LIBRARY CARD ISSUED FROM OCHSNER CLINIC TO USE THE TULANE

MEDICAL LIBRARY--IT WAS DAVE FERRIE'S, ACTUALLY, AND I HAD BORROWED IT.

OCHSNER NEVER MET ME OUTSIDE OF CHARITY HOSPITAL. I DO NOT KNOW WHERE SHE GOT THIS FROM,

BUT I NEVER TOLD HER SUCH A THING. I DID TELL HER THAT I MIGHT HAVE SEEN HIM IN THE LIBRARY,

AS I HAD SEEN SOMEBODY THERE WHO SEEMED TO BE WATCHING ME. BUT I WAS JUST GUESSING IT

MIGHT HAVE BEEN HIM BECAUSE I'D BEEN TOLD THAT HE WAS IN NEW ORLEANS, AND HAD BEEN OUT

TO THE MENTAL HOSPITAL.

I DO NOT KNOW WHAT TO DO. EDISEN SAYS I SAID OTHER THINGS TO HER, TOO, BUT IF THEY ARE ON

THIS ORDER, I HAVE SERIOUS CONCERNS ABOUT HER CREDIBILITY.

NIGEL TURNER INTERVIEWED ME EXTENSIVELY AND I NEVER AT ANY TIME EVER SAID I MET OCHSNER

ANYWHERE EXCEPT AT CHARITY HOSPITAL.

I'M JUST DEVASTATED OVER THIS.

WHAT ALSO CONCERNS ME IS HER NOT BEING CRITICIZED BY THE COMMUNITY EVEN THOUGH SHE TALKED

ABOUT BEING FED LSD BY RIVERA AND, OF COURSE, SHE ACTS AS IF SHE IS THERE TO SPREAD MKULTRA

ABOUT LEE--ANYTHING TO POINT AWAY FROM THE TRUE CONSPIRATORS.

ALL I CAN THINK OF IS THAT HE WAS OUT AT THE MENTAL HOSPITAL. I THOUGHT MAYBE I SAW HIM IN

THE LIBRARY, BECAUSE SOMEBODY HAD TOLD ME HE WAS THERE OFTEN. THIS ONE PERSON, A WHITE,

CUBAN-LOOKING PERSON, I SAW THERE SEVERAL TIMES. WE HAD TALKED ABOUT RIVERA A FEW TIMES,

BUT OCHSNER NEVER, EVER MENTIONED HIM TO ME.

I DID NOT RECALL SPEAKING TO HER THAT LONG ON THE PHONE, BUT I'VE HAD HEAD INJURIES SINCE WE

SPOKE AND MY MEMORIES IN THE PERIOD OF 2000-2003 ARE NOT VERY GOOD. NEVERTHELESS, NEVER

UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES DID OCHSNER EVER INTRODUCE ME TO ANY OTHER LIVING SOUL. I DON'T

KNOW WHERE SHE GOT THAT FROM.

JVB

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 3k
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

I have decided to put my entire email exchange with Judyth Baker on this matter on record, deleting only her email address, as she had requested it not be made public and the name of a friend of hers. I will follow it up with some comments of my own. To read it in chronological order start at the bottom. I never promised Judyth confidentiality although she at one point trys to claim it after the fact.

Hi Gary,

Thank you for posting all of these ... quite the typical firestorm. I have deleted the exchanges here, but anyone interested in a reminder of Judyth's several exchanges with you over her contradictory responses to whether or not LHO was circumcised can find your original post on page 175, post #2613.

End of exchange. My comments:

Judyth initially suggests that the 2001 email was perhaps invented. She maintains that she never used the americanwebworks address and later she questios the header. However, eventually she acknowledges writing the email while mantaining that the circumcision paragraph was added or altered. But if there was an original email then why alter the web address or header? As Stephen Roy said earlier, Howard Platzman could perhaps settle this as he was copied on the email.

Judyth says that "60 Minutes" had asked her the same question in 1999,which makes sense, and if she has any evidence as to her answer to them I would be most interested in seeing it. Professor Fetzer has said that the matter is moot as LHO was "partially circumcised." I do not find this argument persuasive. It seems to me that Judyth, if her claims are true, would answer "yes" or "no" on the question and not both at different times.

I agree on all counts. The question of whether or not LHO was circumcised does not become moot just because Fetzer deems it so ... based on photo(s), some of which are questioned as to their authenticity (by Fetzer no less) and what any one of us might or might not be able to tell by looking at them. Earl Rose looked at the body. He reported LHO was circumcised. And, as you note, him being circumcised ... or not ... is not the salient issue when it comes to Judyth ... the salient point there is that Judyth said/wrote that he was not circumcised to two separate people in 2000, then in a 2009 missive to someone else, she wrote that he was circumcised ...and she herself cites the autopsy report. End of story on that one, imo.

In our exchange, we comment several times on an earlier exchange on "sodium morphate." If there is interest perhaps I could post that exchange as well, athough it would take a bit of digging. Briefly, Judyth had said (to David Reitzes again) that Ferrie had mentioned sodium morphate to her. As no such substance exists, and there is no mention of "sodium morphate" prior to the publication of the Skeleton Key to the Gemstone File in 1975, I naturally found this of interest.

I, for one, would be very interested in your exchanges on the fictional "sodium morphate" - if you have time to look for it without much hassle. I think it could be quite interesting for us to see. As you note, there was no mention of it until the Gemstone File in 1975 ... and that was online well before Judyth emerged as a "witness." I have seen where one person likened the use of "sodium morphate" in movies to use of 555-whatever phone numbers. No one is bothered with crank calls ... and no one is given the key to a perfect murder.

Some months ago I concluded that Judyth was probably telling the truth. I am much less certain of that now. Yet there are matters that puzzle me. Parts of her story ring true, such as the part concerning Charles Thomas, and I would like to see more research done. Then there is the matter of the second Judyth Vary Baker, as Haslam related. I am not ready to call Judyth a xxxx, however extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Judyth has supplied some evidence but not such as to be sufficient to prove her claims, and there are certainly some problems with her story.

In 2009, you and I had a couple of exchanges on the mod group about Charles Thomas/Arthur Young. I noted some differences between Judyth's claims about the man and an article that had appeared in the Dealey Plaza Echo in 2006. In addition, you posted a request from a man on ancestry.com asking for help in locating info about his grandfather ... Charles Thomas, said to use Arthur Young as an alias. That man noted that Mr. Thomas never mentioned any of his past to his second family.

Were you ever able to follow up with this man and verify that they had been contacted by Judyth, that they had given her pictures, and that his grandfather had tatoos on his fingers, etc?

Our exchanges on the mod group can be seen here:

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassi...s%22+%2B+Oswald

On any 2nd Judyth ... Haslam did not tell the story of the 1972 party where he met a Judyth in his first book (1995) ... only after Judyth emerged and he was made aware of her. Then, he first said "Judyth" ...and told the story of how when he met her, she introduced herself to him at this party as "Judyth" ... and when he asked if that would be Judy ... she replied no, that it was Judyth. No other names involved. Later it became Judyth Vary Baker. For me, it is far from persuasive that he met anyone named Judyth Vary Baker in 1972.

Thanks again,

Barb :-)

Link to post
Share on other sites

Adele Edison (per Jack White) said:Also, (in New Orleans) Marina said Lee (Harvey) was home every night after work.

Marina said to whom and for what reason?

Per her statements in the Clay Shaw trial she complained to a priest at one point that she didn't know where LHO was a lot of the time in NOLA, plus LHO didn't even tell her he had been fired from Reily for two weeks.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Adele Edison (per Jack White) said:Also, (in New Orleans) Marina said Lee (Harvey) was home every night after work.

Marina said to whom and for what reason?

Per her statements in the Clay Shaw trial she complained to a priest at one point that she didn't know where LHO was a lot of the time in NOLA, plus LHO didn't even tell her he had been fired from Reily for two weeks.

Some excerpts from Marina Oswald's testimony:

Q: Did you have occasion to have a conversation with Jesuit priest at that time who also spoke Russian?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: And was this done while the speech was going on, were you having a conversation while Lee was making the speech?

A: I don't remember right now, sir, whether it was afterwards or before.

Q: Do you recall telling the priest that you didn't know who Lee's friends (were) or what he did down in New Orleans at all?

A: I don't remember right now, sir.

Q: Do you know as a matter of your own knowledge what Lee was doing when he was pretending to be working?

A: No. I couldn't know, sir, that.

Q: I take it then he wasn't home?

A: What did you say?

Q: I take it he wasn't home if he was pretending to be working, is that correct?

A: I guess so.

Q: Now, approximately what time did Lee return home from work?

A: Five-thirty.

Q: Five-thirty?

A: Five o'clock or five-thirty.

Q: Five o'clock or five-thirty. Was it light or dark then?

A: It was quite light.

Q: What?

A: Light.

Q: Light. Did he come home every night at the same time?

A: Yes.

Q: Every night?

A: Well, when he was working.

Q: What about when he was pretending to work?

A: O.K., sir. I can recall, for example, he told me -- when he told me he lose his job, and he told me it wasn't very long, so right now I can't say exact days and everything when he lost and when he --

Q: I understand when he was pretending --

A: But it haven't been for very many days, because he just can't pretend any longer so he told me.

_________________________________________________________________________

Q: Now, Mrs. Oswald, during the time that you and Lee Harvey Oswald were living here in New Orleans, did you ever know him to stay away from home for any period of time?

A: Only once when he spent the night in jail.

Q: Only once when he spent the night in jail?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: Do you remember the date or the approximate date of that?

A: No, sir.

Q: Do you recall any other nights that he was not at home during the period that you were living here?

A: Not at all.

_____________________________________________________________________

Q: Was he absent from home any night when he might have been visiting with someone else?

A: No.

Q: Was he always home?

A: What did you say?

Q: Was he at home at night all the time?

A: Yes, sir.

________________________________________________________________

Q: Now, Mrs. Porter, if I told you he lost his job on July 19, 1963, would you consider that a fair estimate as to the date he lost his job?

A: No, I say it wouldn't be.

Q: It would not be?

A: No, I think it was closer to the time we left New Orleans.

Q: Oh, I see. Well, how much closer, Mrs. Porter?

A: For example, if we left in September, if I left September 23, it could be approximately a month before we left.

Q: About a month before you left you think he lost his job?

A: Yes.

Q: That would be approximately the middle -- August 23 then?

A: Sir, it is very hard for me to remember the month, it is too much time passed by. You can find this information probably at the place where he used to work.

Q: That is what I am suggesting. You are suggesting that you felt that he lost his job at most a month before you left New Orleans, is that correct?

A: Yes, sir, because seemed like it was -- he was looking for a while, he was looking for a job, trying to find another job, and it was quite a while, maybe two weeks or so.

Q: Well, would you say then, Mrs. Porter, from July 19 to August 23 that he would leave the house in the morning as if going to work?

A: I can't tell, sir.
When he lost his job he pretend for a few days that he is going to work.
(bold added) Then later on he said he hadn't been working but he tried to find another job, and after he admit he didn't have a job, then he was looking through the newspaper in the house and, you know, cut the addresses and then go contact the people by the phone or go see them for an interview.

Q: I see. In other words, he admitted pretending to you that he was still working when he wasn't? Is that correct?

A: Yes, sir.

http://www.jfk-online.com/marinashaw.html

Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest James H. Fetzer

JUDYTH REPLIES TO EVERYONE ABOUT DR. JOSE RIVERA'S SKIN COLOR

NOTE: According to Jack White, Adele Edisen has discredited Judyth for having described

Dr. Jose Rivera as "white". If so, he must have very limited exposure to Cubans and many

others of Hispanic descent. When I was teaching at New College of the University of South

Florida, I had a colleague who was of Hispanic--I think, even Cuban!--birth, who was dark-

complected but nevertheless clearly "white". I have another close associate who was born

in Spain and, like my former colleague, is also dark-complected but clearly "white". In my

opinion, Adele Edisen and Jack White have discredited themselves with a clearly unfounded

attack on Judyth for (what appears to have been) her accurate report about Dr. Jose Rivera.

JUDYTH RESPONDS:

Perhaps Adele Edisen was not familiar, as I was, with "white" Cubans and "black" Cubans.

I shook hands with Dr. Ochsner when he came to Shands Hospital in Gainesville, Florida,

when they were fund-raising for new medical equipment, in 1962. He gave me no particular

attention. The meeting was held in the hospital's medical library conference room and I simply

happened to be in the medical library when the meeting took place.

I had reported this slight encounter with Dr. Ochsner only to Ed Haslam (long ago) and to Nigel

Turner...also, to Howard and Martin Shackelford....but perhaps I mentioned it to Edisen. There

has never been room in the book for the Shands encounter, brief as it was, but I believe this is

where Adele and I might have misunderstood each other.

I definitely did state that I thought I might have seen Dr. Rivera in the Tulane Medical Library,

in the stacks--that area where you are not allowed to check out books, or at least, I was not.

I was trying to be helpful. I was never sure and told her that.

Since my description was wrong, I obviously did not see him after all. The man I remember was

not very tall and was nervous and wore glasses, all of which I can still recall. He spoke Spanish

to the lady at the desk and to somebody at the elevator. I do not recall him being dark-skinned.

in4o0g.jpg      

This is his photo. You decide! Many Cubans are 'blacks" and of course I

meant he was not a "black." Here is another photo, but it is very grainy.

10f45ft.jpg    

HERE IS ANOTHER PHOTO OF HIM. AGAIN, I CONSIDER THIS A 'WHITE'

PERSON. BELOW ARE SOME PHOTOS OF 'DARK-SKINNED' CUBANS:

20as80n.jpg  

I had many anti-Castro Cuban friends. They considered themselves to be WHITE.

30k7qzm.jpg

The eastern end of Cuba is full of former black slaves. They are the "dark skinned" Cubans, as in the

photos above.

Adele Edisen believes that Dr. Rivera was "dark-skinned" -- but she obviously does not know that black

Cubans are "dark-skinned" and that Dr. Rivera considered himself--as do I, "white."

What else did Adele get wrong that Jack White thinks is important enough to use to denounce me?

Edisen also has the impression that I said Ochsner introduced him to me. HOWEVER, DR. RIVERA WAS

MENTIONED IN A PRIVATE INTERVIEW WITH DR. OCHSNER at Charity Hospital. While he introduced me,

insofar as making me aware of him, because I had to go to the east Louisiana Mental Hospital, the intro

was NOT not face-to-face. She may have got that impression, but she misunderstood me.

I told her I had the medical library card (Dave Ferrie's, issued by Ochsner Clinic, for use there).

Ochsner never introduced me to anybody: he even interviewed me and Lee separately. But because I go

off track sometimes, perhaps it came across to Adele that way.

I've prayed about this, and I was pretty certain I had seen Rivera at the Tulane University Medical Library.

I described him as wearing glasses and being a nervous person. Note that in the common photos available

he is not wearing glasses, but he is wearing glasses in his military photo..

I do believe he was mentioned to me as being in the library, Perhaps one of the ladies at the desk told me,

or pointed him out --I make friends easily and we became rather chatty.

Be that as it may, I was trying to give Adele every scrap of information from memory that I had. Ochsner

did not introduce him to me. I insist that he was "white."

I do believe I might have told Edisen that Ochsner sometimes visited the Tulane Medical Library, as he wrote

many papers.

I also dimly recall that the person I thought was Rivera was standing by the elevator and also in the stacks.

Somebody told me it was Dr. Rivera, and we muight have exchanged a nod or something.

JVB

Adele has authorized me to use the following quotes from several long emails. I am quoting only

Adele's "facts" and have omitted her many "opinions". She does not want to be involved in any

discussion about JVB. She had enough of it ten years ago. Here are a couple of excerpts from

her first conversation with Judyth, and with Mary Ferrell:

..............

.....Judyth called me after Ed Haslam gave her my phone number, and on her nickel told me her story for three hours.  She also said she had been introduced to Jose Rivera by Dr. Alton Ochsner at the Tulane U. School of Medicine Library.  I asked for his description, and all she told me was that he was nervous and fidgety.  Nothing about his physical appearance.   After a while I asked her what color his skin was (he was dark-skinned).   She said it was "white, of course".   I knew she was lying.   She wanted me to corroborate her story, of which I could not have known anything, except for what she had told me.  This is the way she operates, using some kind of hook to draw you into her tale, as in my case, using Rivera......

(there is much more, mostly Adele's interpretations of Judyth's tales)

..........

Adele says in part about Mary Ferrell and Judyth:

..........

.....Mary Ferrell did not believe her story.  Mary could account for all of Oswald's stay in New Orleans, except for three days, she told me..  We had a number of discussions about it.  I was in Dallas when Judyth made one of her break-ins into Mary's apartment, and I was on the phone with Mary when Judyth had visited her at her house.  Also, (in New Orleans) Marina said Lee (Harvey) was home every night after work.  Mrs. Garner, the apartment manager's wife on Magazine Street, had said that she saw Oswald reading on his porch most evenings while there was light.   She had been asked to keep an eye on any visitors to Oswald by an FBI agent, Milton Kaack, shortly after the Oswalds moved into the apartment.....

...............

Adele authorizes this and no more. She does not want to be involved in ANYTHING regarding JVB.

The time of day is now 7:50 pm, CST

Edited by James H. Fetzer
Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest James H. Fetzer

SPECIAL REQUEST TO JOHN SIMKIN AND EVAN BURTON ABOUT HIJACKING THREADS

John and Evan,

Anyone who has followed this thread is aware that Josiah Thompson and Mike Williams have no

knowledge or interest in the subject of this thread but are here for the plain and simple reason

of wanting to attack, ridicule, and belittle me, regardless of the merits of their case. They have

hijacked this thread devoted to Judyth Vary Baker, which is both unprofessional but also easily

predicable for those with any familiarity with their character. This conduct on their part--which

I inadvertently encouraged by responding to one of Mike Williams' posts--not only undermines

the efforts of those who are seriously concerned with Judyth's credibility but sets a very poor

example for other threads where, if this kind of conduct is tolerated here, it may be expected

to occur on other threads at other times for other reasons. I therefore formally request that a

neutral party--Evan Burton would be fine!--review the past 100 posts or so and remove them

from this thread and add them to some other. I know that Williams and Thompson created a

thread, "Fetzer and Ballistics 101", for the obvious reasons. That might be a suitable location

for these posts, since they are assailing me, often in relation to questions of ballistics. I have

no problem with being attacked: it goes with the territory! But it is extremely unfair to me and

to Judyth and to everyone else, such as Jack White, Michael Hogan, Pamela Brown, David Lifton

Douglas Weldon, Stephen Roy, Pat Speer, Gregory Burnham, Dean Hagerman, Barb Junkkarinen,

and many others--to have the thread taken over by parties with no serious interest in its subject.

I therefore request in the interest of fair-play that irrelevant posts, including mine, be moved to

another location, where the parties are welcome to continue to assail me to their heart's content.

With appreciation,

Jim

Link to post
Share on other sites
Adele Edison (per Jack White) said:Also, (in New Orleans) Marina said Lee (Harvey) was home every night after work.

Marina said to whom and for what reason?

Per her statements in the Clay Shaw trial she complained to a priest at one point that she didn't know where LHO was a lot of the time in NOLA, plus LHO didn't even tell her he had been fired from Reily for two weeks.

Some excerpts from Marina Oswald's testimony:

Q: Did you have occasion to have a conversation with Jesuit priest at that time who also spoke Russian?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: And was this done while the speech was going on, were you having a conversation while Lee was making the speech?

A: I don't remember right now, sir, whether it was afterwards or before.

Q: Do you recall telling the priest that you didn't know who Lee's friends (were) or what he did down in New Orleans at all?

A: I don't remember right now, sir.

Q: Do you know as a matter of your own knowledge what Lee was doing when he was pretending to be working?

A: No. I couldn't know, sir, that.

Q: I take it then he wasn't home?

A: What did you say?

Q: I take it he wasn't home if he was pretending to be working, is that correct?

A: I guess so.

Q: Now, approximately what time did Lee return home from work?

A: Five-thirty.

Q: Five-thirty?

A: Five o'clock or five-thirty.

Q: Five o'clock or five-thirty. Was it light or dark then?

A: It was quite light.

Q: What?

A: Light.

Q: Light. Did he come home every night at the same time?

A: Yes.

Q: Every night?

A: Well, when he was working.

Q: What about when he was pretending to work?

A: O.K., sir. I can recall, for example, he told me -- when he told me he lose his job, and he told me it wasn't very long, so right now I can't say exact days and everything when he lost and when he --

Q: I understand when he was pretending --

A: But it haven't been for very many days, because he just can't pretend any longer so he told me.

_________________________________________________________________________

Q: Now, Mrs. Oswald, during the time that you and Lee Harvey Oswald were living here in New Orleans, did you ever know him to stay away from home for any period of time?

A: Only once when he spent the night in jail.

Q: Only once when he spent the night in jail?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: Do you remember the date or the approximate date of that?

A: No, sir.

Q: Do you recall any other nights that he was not at home during the period that you were living here?

A: Not at all.

_____________________________________________________________________

Q: Was he absent from home any night when he might have been visiting with someone else?

A: No.

Q: Was he always home?

A: What did you say?

Q: Was he at home at night all the time?

A: Yes, sir.

________________________________________________________________

Q: Now, Mrs. Porter, if I told you he lost his job on July 19, 1963, would you consider that a fair estimate as to the date he lost his job?

A: No, I say it wouldn't be.

Q: It would not be?

A: No, I think it was closer to the time we left New Orleans.

Q: Oh, I see. Well, how much closer, Mrs. Porter?

A: For example, if we left in September, if I left September 23, it could be approximately a month before we left.

Q: About a month before you left you think he lost his job?

A: Yes.

Q: That would be approximately the middle -- August 23 then?

A: Sir, it is very hard for me to remember the month, it is too much time passed by. You can find this information probably at the place where he used to work.

Q: That is what I am suggesting. You are suggesting that you felt that he lost his job at most a month before you left New Orleans, is that correct?

A: Yes, sir, because seemed like it was -- he was looking for a while, he was looking for a job, trying to find another job, and it was quite a while, maybe two weeks or so.

Q: Well, would you say then, Mrs. Porter, from July 19 to August 23 that he would leave the house in the morning as if going to work?

A: I can't tell, sir.
When he lost his job he pretend for a few days that he is going to work.
(bold added) Then later on he said he hadn't been working but he tried to find another job, and after he admit he didn't have a job, then he was looking through the newspaper in the house and, you know, cut the addresses and then go contact the people by the phone or go see them for an interview.

Q: I see. In other words, he admitted pretending to you that he was still working when he wasn't? Is that correct?

A: Yes, sir.

http://www.jfk-online.com/marinashaw.html

Please note this testimony is approximately six years after the assassination. This represents exactly what one would expect of a witness to such specific questions that long after the event. Compare this with Judyth over 45 years later. Less anyone think to the contrary Marina Oswald is one of the brightest and "sharpest" people I have ever talked with.

Doug Weldon

Link to post
Share on other sites

Doug,

I spoke to her over a year ago, and that was EXACTLY the impression I got. She is not only very sharp, and bright as you pointed out, she is VERY straight forward.

I hear so many disconcerting things about her that it was refreshing to hear something that I could relate to. I enjoyed talking with her very much.

Best to you Doug,

Mike

Link to post
Share on other sites

Jim, would you like your rule applied to all topics or just this one?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Jim. while I don't agree that Tink or Willams have deliberately hijacked this thread, I agree that everyone would be better served if the "high-velocity" and non-Judyth-related questions for you be placed elsewhere, perhaps in a thread entitled "Arguments with Jim.". That way, whenever you write something non-Judyth-related to which someone disagrees, they could confront you on it, without sidetracking this thread.

I also agree that Mike is out of line in questioning your patriotism. I watched an episode of Frontline on My Lai last night. It made me sick. I knew what happened, but had little appreciation of how many officers participated in the cover up, and how none of them were punished because Nixon was afraid of a backlash from the far right.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Prof Fetzer,

Being ignorant of JFK matters, I would feel uncomfortable trying to decide what is relevant, what is not, etc. I have asked other mods - more knowledgeable about the JFK theories - to consider your request.

I have no problem removing clear breaches of the Forum rules, but sometimes we mods can be believed to censoring or stifling lively discussion if we act when we think it is warranted but others do not. The sheer volume of posts and views to this thread has made us tend to adopt the later attitude and if we have been reticent in our obligations, I apologise and hope members will understand.

SPECIAL REQUEST TO JOHN SIMKIN AND EVAN BURTON ABOUT HIJACKING THREADS

John and Evan,

Anyone who has followed this thread is aware that Josiah Thompson and Mike Williams have no

knowledge or interest in the subject of this thread but are here for the plain and simple reason

of wanting to attack, ridicule, and belittle me, regardless of the merits of their case. They have

hijacked this thread devoted to Judyth Vary Baker, which is both unprofessional but also easily

predicable for those with any familiarity with their character. This conduct on their part--which

I inadvertently encouraged by responding to one of Mike Williams' posts--not only undermines

the efforts of those who are seriously concerned with Judyth's credibility but sets a very poor

example for other threads where, if this kind of conduct is tolerated here, it may be expected

to occur on other threads at other times for other reasons. I therefore formally request that a

neutral party--Evan Burton would be fine!--review the past 100 posts or so and remove them

from this thread and add them to some other. I know that Williams and Thompson created a

thread, "Fetzer and Ballistics 101", for the obvious reasons. That might be a suitable location

for these posts, since they are assailing me, often in relation to questions of ballistics. I have

no problem with being attacked: it goes with the territory! But it is extremely unfair to me and

to Judyth and to everyone else, such as Jack White, Michael Hogan, Pamela Brown, David Lifton

Douglas Weldon, Stephen Roy, Pat Speer, Gregory Burnham, Dean Hagerman, Barb Junkkarinen,

and many others--to have the thread taken over by parties with no serious interest in its subject.

I therefore request in the interest of fair-play that irrelevant posts, including mine, be moved to

another location, where the parties are welcome to continue to assail me to their heart's content.

With appreciation,

Jim

Link to post
Share on other sites

Mike,

You have referred to Prof Fetzer's military service, and his character in this thread. Please do NOT question it again or your posts will be made invisible and you may be made subject to moderation. By all means attack his ideas, his claims, and prove them incorrect or suspect... but motivations regarding past periods of his life and honesty on this thread will not be tolerate.

Play the ball, not the man.

If you believe you have clear evidence of deception by a Forum member then raise it with a moderator, and seek the most appropriate way forward.

Thank you.

Can this man not be honest about anything?

Professor who do you think you are fooling?

I ask again, why did you turn your back on your Country and your men, when they needed you most?

Link to post
Share on other sites

A question for Judyth ...

What were you told about the use of a particle accelerator during the summer in

NO ... and who told you about it? Did you ever visit the hospital where Haslam says it was located ... and perhaps even see it?

Thanks,

Barb :-)

Link to post
Share on other sites

Let me make this clear: do not question any member's motives regarding military service, in any theatre, why they served or they did not serve. It is STRICTLY a member's personal choice and NOTHING to do with the various arguments put forward.

As a serving military member of near 20 years service, I will take great offence if anyone is questioned - regardless of what decisions they made.

Link to post
Share on other sites

JVB is quite an accomplished tap-dancer.

The time of day is 7:54 a.m.

Jack

JUDYTH RESPONDS:

Perhaps Adele Edisen was not familiar, as I was, with "white" Cubans and "black" Cubans.

I shook hands with Dr. Ochsner when he came to Shands Hospital in Gainesville, Florida,

when they were fund-raising for new medical equipment, in 1962. He gave me no particular

attention. The meeting was held in the hospital's medical library conference room and I simply

happened to be in the medical library when the meeting took place.

I had reported this slight encounter with Dr. Ochsner only to Ed Haslam (long ago) and to Nigel

Turner...also, to Howard and Martin Shackelford....but perhaps I mentioned it to Edisen. There

has never been room in the book for the Shands encounter, brief as it was, but I believe this is

where Adele and I might have misunderstood each other.

I definitely did state that I thought I might have seen Dr. Rivera in the Tulane Medical Library,

in the stacks--that area where you are not allowed to check out books, or at least, I was not.

I was trying to be helpful. I was never sure and told her that.

Since my description was wrong, I obviously did not see him after all. The man I remember was

not very tall and was nervous and wore glasses, all of which I can still recall. He spoke Spanish

to the lady at the desk and to somebody at the elevator. I do not recall him being dark-skinned.

in4o0g.jpg      

This is his photo. You decide! Many Cubans are 'blacks" and of course I

meant he was not a "black." Here is another photo, but it is very grainy.

10f45ft.jpg    

HERE IS ANOTHER PHOTO OF HIM. AGAIN, I CONSIDER THIS A 'WHITE'

PERSON. BELOW ARE SOME PHOTOS OF 'DARK-SKINNED' CUBANS:

20as80n.jpg  

I had many anti-Castro Cuban friends. They considered themselves to be WHITE.

30k7qzm.jpg

The eastern end of Cuba is full of former black slaves. They are the "dark skinned" Cubans, as in the

photos above.

Adele Edisen believes that Dr. Rivera was "dark-skinned" -- but she obviously does not know that black

Cubans are "dark-skinned" and that Dr. Rivera considered himself--as do I, "white."

What else did Adele get wrong that Jack White thinks is important enough to use to denounce me?

Edisen also has the impression that I said Ochsner introduced him to me. HOWEVER, DR. RIVERA WAS

MENTIONED IN A PRIVATE INTERVIEW WITH DR. OCHSNER at Charity Hospital. While he introduced me,

insofar as making me aware of him, because I had to go to the east Louisiana Mental Hospital, the intro

was NOT not face-to-face. She may have got that impression, but she misunderstood me.

I told her I had the medical library card (Dave Ferrie's, issued by Ochsner Clinic, for use there).

Ochsner never introduced me to anybody: he even interviewed me and Lee separately. But because I go

off track sometimes, perhaps it came across to Adele that way.

I've prayed about this, and I was pretty certain I had seen Rivera at the Tulane University Medical Library.

I described him as wearing glasses and being a nervous person. Note that in the common photos available

he is not wearing glasses, but he is wearing glasses in his military photo..

I do believe he was mentioned to me as being in the library, Perhaps one of the ladies at the desk told me,

or pointed him out --I make friends easily and we became rather chatty.

Be that as it may, I was trying to give Adele every scrap of information from memory that I had. Ochsner

did not introduce him to me. I insist that he was "white."

I do believe I might have told Edisen that Ochsner sometimes visited the Tulane Medical Library, as he wrote

many papers.

I also dimly recall that the person I thought was Rivera was standing by the elevator and also in the stacks.

Somebody told me it was Dr. Rivera, and we muight have exchanged a nod or something.

JVB

Link to post
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...