Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile

[Jack White]

Plus Jack; he left it in writing...also, you don't get any better imo, plus his son and wife and the executive, ower of the plant backed his honesty..like others she is just going to have to wait for the book, perhaps that is what continues to bother her, the forthcoming book, i do not know, but she certainly enjoys harping on dougs info and work , with the least provocation..perhaps he will be along, to answer her..?.b

He also left a tape recording which Doug gave me a copy of. I don't remember just where it is right now.

Jack

When you and Weldon chose to move forward, did you even think about finding out where the limo actually went when it was in Dearborn? Or did you just move ahead with this story because you found it persuasive? Isn't that what Judyth is asking of us -- that we set aside anything else we may have heard about LHO in NOLA and listen to her? And yet Weldon was able to ask a myriad of questions about her statements. What accounts for the difference in insight?

The tape you mention was the one played at NID 98. It has a number of gaffes in it. I don't want to rehash them, we did enough of that on the RDR forum; just to point out that, probably as a result, they were mostly eliminated from the interview in TMWKK. I believe the same thing is happening with Judyth's statements -- glaring errors in the earlier book will have been removed or reworked based on the issues that have been debated here and on aaj.

As far as I know Doug has not eliminated anything from the recording and stands behind everything said.

It is more trustworthy than ANY OFFICIAL RECORDS.

Jack

You are making my point for me. Are there not some who say the same thing about Judyth's statements?

Mrs. Baker and Mr, Whitaker are at opposite poles. She is a publicity seeker. He was so reluctant that he feared for his life.

Jack

[Pamela Brown]

Plus Jack; he left it in writing...also, you don't get any better imo, plus his son and wife and the executive, ower of the plant backed his honesty..like others she is just going to have to wait for the book, perhaps that is what continues to bother her, the forthcoming book, i do not know, but she certainly enjoys harping on dougs info and work , with the least provocation..perhaps he will be along, to answer her..?.b

He also left a tape recording which Doug gave me a copy of. I don't remember just where it is right now.

Jack

When you and Weldon chose to move forward, did you even think about finding out where the limo actually went when it was in Dearborn? Or did you just move ahead with this story because you found it persuasive? Isn't that what Judyth is asking of us -- that we set aside anything else we may have heard about LHO in NOLA and listen to her? And yet Weldon was able to ask a myriad of questions about her statements. What accounts for the difference in insight?

The tape you mention was the one played at NID 98. It has a number of gaffes in it. I don't want to rehash them, we did enough of that on the RDR forum; just to point out that, probably as a result, they were mostly eliminated from the interview in TMWKK. I believe the same thing is happening with Judyth's statements -- glaring errors in the earlier book will have been removed or reworked based on the issues that have been debated here and on aaj.

As far as I know Doug has not eliminated anything from the recording and stands behind everything said.

It is more trustworthy than ANY OFFICIAL RECORDS.

Jack

You are making my point for me. Are there not some who say the same thing about Judyth's statements?

Mrs. Baker and Mr, Whitaker are at opposite poles. She is a publicity seeker. He was so reluctant that he feared for his life.

Jack

Or maybe he was afraid Vaugn Ferguson would speak up on his own first.

At any rate, that is not really the point. They both seem to have attracted believers who put anything they say at a higher level than anything from other sources, such as the govt. Thus, when we are tempted to become outraged at those who believe Judyth, perhaps we can gain perspective by referencing those who enthusiastically embrace Whitaker's statements, which also at times seem to fly in the face of existing documentation. That's all.

[Jack White]

Plus Jack; he left it in writing...also, you don't get any better imo, plus his son and wife and the executive, ower of the plant backed his honesty..like others she is just going to have to wait for the book, perhaps that is what continues to bother her, the forthcoming book, i do not know, but she certainly enjoys harping on dougs info and work , with the least provocation..perhaps he will be along, to answer her..?.b

He also left a tape recording which Doug gave me a copy of. I don't remember just where it is right now.

Jack

When you and Weldon chose to move forward, did you even think about finding out where the limo actually went when it was in Dearborn? Or did you just move ahead with this story because you found it persuasive? Isn't that what Judyth is asking of us -- that we set aside anything else we may have heard about LHO in NOLA and listen to her? And yet Weldon was able to ask a myriad of questions about her statements. What accounts for the difference in insight?

The tape you mention was the one played at NID 98. It has a number of gaffes in it. I don't want to rehash them, we did enough of that on the RDR forum; just to point out that, probably as a result, they were mostly eliminated from the interview in TMWKK. I believe the same thing is happening with Judyth's statements -- glaring errors in the earlier book will have been removed or reworked based on the issues that have been debated here and on aaj.

As far as I know Doug has not eliminated anything from the recording and stands behind everything said.

It is more trustworthy than ANY OFFICIAL RECORDS.

Jack

You are making my point for me. Are there not some who say the same thing about Judyth's statements?

Mrs. Baker and Mr, Whitaker are at opposite poles. She is a publicity seeker. He was so reluctant that he feared for his life.

Jack

Or maybe he was afraid Vaugn Ferguson would speak up on his own first.

At any rate, that is not really the point. They both seem to have attracted believers who put anything they say at a higher level than anything from other sources, such as the govt. Thus, when we are tempted to become outraged at those who believe Judyth, perhaps we can gain perspective by referencing those who enthusiastically embrace Whitaker's statements, which also at times seem to fly in the face of existing documentation. That's all.

MAYBE is speculation. Speculation is not research. Speculation is not evidence.

Jack

[Pamela Brown]

Plus Jack; he left it in writing...also, you don't get any better imo, plus his son and wife and the executive, ower of the plant backed his honesty..like others she is just going to have to wait for the book, perhaps that is what continues to bother her, the forthcoming book, i do not know, but she certainly enjoys harping on dougs info and work , with the least provocation..perhaps he will be along, to answer her..?.b

He also left a tape recording which Doug gave me a copy of. I don't remember just where it is right now.

Jack

When you and Weldon chose to move forward, did you even think about finding out where the limo actually went when it was in Dearborn? Or did you just move ahead with this story because you found it persuasive? Isn't that what Judyth is asking of us -- that we set aside anything else we may have heard about LHO in NOLA and listen to her? And yet Weldon was able to ask a myriad of questions about her statements. What accounts for the difference in insight?

The tape you mention was the one played at NID 98. It has a number of gaffes in it. I don't want to rehash them, we did enough of that on the RDR forum; just to point out that, probably as a result, they were mostly eliminated from the interview in TMWKK. I believe the same thing is happening with Judyth's statements -- glaring errors in the earlier book will have been removed or reworked based on the issues that have been debated here and on aaj.

As far as I know Doug has not eliminated anything from the recording and stands behind everything said.

It is more trustworthy than ANY OFFICIAL RECORDS.

Jack

You are making my point for me. Are there not some who say the same thing about Judyth's statements?

Mrs. Baker and Mr, Whitaker are at opposite poles. She is a publicity seeker. He was so reluctant that he feared for his life.

Jack

Or maybe he was afraid Vaugn Ferguson would speak up on his own first.

At any rate, that is not really the point. They both seem to have attracted believers who put anything they say at a higher level than anything from other sources, such as the govt. Thus, when we are tempted to become outraged at those who believe Judyth, perhaps we can gain perspective by referencing those who enthusiastically embrace Whitaker's statements, which also at times seem to fly in the face of existing documentation. That's all.

MAYBE is speculation. Speculation is not research. Speculation is not evidence.

Jack

My statement is a counter speculation to yours. You give credence to the speculation that Mr. Whitaker had reason to fear for his life.

Judyth has made the same claim that she had reason to fear for her life, but you do not find that credible, do you?

[Karl Kinaski]

xxx

[B. A. Copeland]

BlackOps would have no problem whatsoever making sure Baker does not talk, which begs the question......

[Karl Kinaski]

On 1.8.2011 at 10:23 AM, B. A. Copeland said:

BlackOps would have no problem whatsoever making sure Baker does not talk, which begs the question......

 edit

Edited February 22, 2017 by Karl Kinaski

[Karl Kinaski]

What DRIVER'S LICENSE? LHO could not drive and did not have a driver's license.

If JVB has a copy of one...THAT IS BIG NEWS.

Lee knew how to drive. Harvey didn't. Maybe in those days, many Russians didn't have cars.

Kathy C

Yes Lee could drive. Testimony of Edith Whitworth

Edited January 5, 2012 by Karl Kinaski

[Guest Robert Morrow]

_{I had an email exchange with a JFK researcher last night about Judyth Vary Baker. This researcher is someone who I respect and who is quite knowledgeable and he has HUGE problems with Judyth Vary Baker.}

_{David Lifton, Jim DiEugenio, Debra Conway and the late Jack White all believe (if I can put words in their mouths) that Judyth Vary Baker is a complete and utter fraud, a xxxx of epic proportions.}

_{This other respected researcher said: "She seems bi-polar to me. Lacks boundaries. She looks like a classic bipolar woman, a sociopath with massive prevarication. She may even believe what she says at this point."}

_{He would not let me post his entire email but it was a hard core smack down on Judyth Vary Baker.}

_{Then I emailed back "All I care about is the truth and I value your opinion. My theory is Judy knew and was friends with Oswald, then went nuts making stuff up with 1/2 truth blended with 1/2 fabrication. Ed Tatro believes her and he is a high quality JFK researcher. Tatro even had Chauncey Holt come to live with him for a couple of weeks--- and decided he was not tramp."}

_{Then this researcher emailed back to me that he agreed with my theory on Judyth Baker.}

_{So that is where I am at not folks. I wanted to believe Judyth Vary Baker on everything, I really did. I wanted to believe that what she was saying was God's truth. But I can't.}

_{As of right now (August, 2013), I believe Judyth Baker had a friendship with Oswald and was indeed a secret cancer researcher and that is quite important. But it appears to me that Judyth Vary Baker on many points is MAKING STUFF UP and is introducing much GARBAGE into the historical record.}

_{That is not an easy or simple answer. It is not neat and tidy, but it is where I am at right now on Judyth Baker. I think Judyth Vary Baker has historical truth, floating around in buckets of feces.}

Edited August 30, 2013 by Robert Morrow

[Pamela Brown]

[...]As of right now (August, 2013), I believe Judyth Baker had a friendship with Oswald and was indeed a secret cancer researcher and that is quite important. But it appears to me that Judyth Vary Baker on many points is MAKING STUFF UP and is introducing much GARBAGE into the historical record.

_{That is not an easy or simple answer. It is not neat and tidy, but it is where I am at right now on Judyth Baker. I think Judyth Vary Baker has historical truth, floating around in buckets of feces.}

Robert,

As you know, I spent seven years as part of Judyth's support team, doing everything I could to be objective and give her a place to share her statements because she had documentation putting her at Reily Coffee at the same time as Lee Oswald. I was unable to let the possibility of a witness of great value get tossed out like garbage simply because of the controversy that her statements were creating and her inability to stay out of the fray and make things even worse.

My point in doing what I did, which has cost me enormously, was and still is, to allow people to decide for themselves what to think about her statements. As things ended up, my two greatest concerns were what I consider her unfair treatment of Marina and the fact that when I told her that my agreement with her was completed (I agreed to keep an open mind until her book -- it ended up 'authorized version of her book' came out), she pretty much turned on me and said, 'who will believe you now?' If I hadn't hit a low point before then (and there were several) that dead end did it for me.

Edited September 2, 2013 by Pamela Brown

[Pamela Brown]

DR said, "You're saying you don't find Judyth's story believable?"

As I have stated too many times to count, my historical process does not include 'believing' or 'disbelieving' people. Therefore, the question is a strawman.

What I am doing, or attempting to do, is to define my experience in hopes that doing so will help others decide for themselves what to think.

In that light, if someone who was documented to be in proximity to LHO, as Judyth was at Reily, and had become personally involved with him, and had sacrificed all to come forward with her account, why would they take aim at Marina? Why would they not, out of respect for Marina and the children that belonged to Marina and Lee, treat Marina with the utmost respect? I don't have an answer for that one. I asked Judyth and got excuses and denials. To me, that speaks volumes.

My second grave concern is why someone who claims they were willing to die for LHO etc etc did not do everything possible to come forward at the time of the Garrison investigation, when they knew that by doing so there was a good chance of exonerating LHO once and for all? I asked Judyth that on at least two occasions, and got excuses and runarounds. That speaks volumes to me as well.

At the same time, I sincerely think that anyone who is interested in Judyth and her statements should pursue them, as she, and Ed Haslam, march into the murky world of NOLA in the summer of 1963, and whether or not one finds anything really persuasive, there are enough questions asked to keep things moving forward for a long time, imo.

[Pamela Brown]

Just an update that, due to an email request (either from JVB in disguise or one of her fans) plus Reitzes' reminder on aaj, I acknowledge that I have not yet produced the article on Judyth that I promised. I had planned to do that earlier this year; hopefully, following an article Barb J said she intended to write that has not yet appeared -- yes, I know that is an excuse. There seemed little interest in JVB, however, and when I was invited to speak at NID I quickly and happily switched gears into all things limo.

But, my conscience got to me and I find that switching to something different helps me focus on editing my NID presentation and getting all the documents and photos in order, so I am and will be making sketches of issues on my Finding Judyth blog from now through November, to give readers an idea of where I am at and what I consider of importance. During this 50th, it seems to be especially important to provide definition to Judyth's statements, so that new people will have an opportunity to look at things objectively (I hope) and then decide for themselves what to think, rather than being bulldogged either by Judyth and her camp or by the equally pushy (imo) opposition.

Time will tell...:-0

[Pamela Brown]

Just an update that, due to an email request (either from JVB in disguise or one of her fans) plus Reitzes' reminder on aaj, I acknowledge that I have not yet produced the article on Judyth that I promised. I had planned to do that earlier this year; hopefully, following an article Barb J said she intended to write that has not yet appeared -- yes, I know that is an excuse. There seemed little interest in JVB, however, and when I was invited to speak at NID I quickly and happily switched gears into all things limo.

But, my conscience got to me and I find that switching to something different helps me focus on editing my NID presentation and getting all the documents and photos in order, so I am and will be making sketches of issues on my Finding Judyth blog from now through November, to give readers an idea of where I am at and what I consider of importance. During this 50th, it seems to be especially important to provide definition to Judyth's statements, so that new people will have an opportunity to look at things objectively (I hope) and then decide for themselves what to think, rather than being bulldogged either by Judyth and her camp or by the equally pushy (imo) opposition.

Time will tell...:-0

I would just like to point out that my reminder at a.a.j. was posted prior to the very thoughtful response to me that you posted here recently. As I said at a.a.j. the other day, your NID presentation certainly takes precedence over any matter involving Judyth. I look forward to hearing about your presentation.

Dave

It was indeed. I thank you for your support. I hope that we can agree-to-disagree on many issues in the future.

My NID limo presentation will add definition to an area of the limo timeline not yet fully explored -- the process that took place to decide to rebuild the limo and 'get it out of Dodge'. I will be sharing documents from Henry Ford Museum which, to my knowledge, have not been brought forward before. In addition, I will be adding definition to my early viewing of one of the Z-film(s) in NYC in 1964, which was a major factor in my deciding to focus on researching the limo. I know there are some (such as DL) who just can't wait for that!

And tying everything together will be the historical method that I developed (yes, I can hear roars of applause..or are those groans? :-0) which, ideally, will give all of us who question the WCR a simple means toward will working in tandem and being inclusive as we move forward.

Edited September 27, 2013 by Pamela Brown

[Pamela Brown]

Just saw this on the Vindication for JVB page https://www.facebook.com/groups/348063875669/

"DEAR FRIENDS! UNBELIEVABLY, THIS FUND RAISER (DEADLINE 20 DAYS) STARTED TODAY WITH ONLY 17 DAYS! (DON'T KNOW WHY ONLY 17 DAYS WHEN EVERYBODY ELSE GETS 20, BUT HERE'S HOPING YOU WILL MAKE IT HAPPEN ANYWAY! HELP ME REACH NEW ORLEANS, DALLAS, ARLINGTON, OLNEY, ATLANTA, MINNEAPOLIS--AND YOU! MANY THANKS, MY FRIENDS!http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/jfk-50th-anniversary-me-lee-book-tour-bring-judyth-vary-baker-for-the-50th"

Minneapolis! Really?

This could be interesting....

Edited September 27, 2013 by Pamela Brown

[Pamela Brown]

What about vindication for Marina Oswald? (from a post at my Finding Judyth blog):

We have seen FB groups devoted to "vindication" for Lee Oswald and for Judyth, but what about the widow of Lee Oswald, Marina Oswald Porter, who has been viciously villified by Ms. Baker both on groups and in her book Lee and Me?

Marina has had to deal with an intense personal scrutiny from someone making claims that affected her life and have affected her children. Judyth has, apparently, even attempted to insinuate herself into the lives of Lee's daughters. I find this all appalling.

While Judyth has been posting about everything Marina, Marina has said nothing publicly about Judyth's claims. Marina has retained her stature as a gentlewoman. Just because Marina remains silent does not mean that she should not have support. The turbulence that seems to surround everything M. Baker does has its vortex at Marina's front doorstep.

For it is my impression that, for one reason or another, it seems to be Judyth's intent to replace Marina in the public eye as the 'true love' of Lee Oswald, even at the cost of slander.

I am not going to tell anyone what to think about Judyth, but I do ask that you weigh and evaluate the effect of Judyth's treatment of Marina, and, if you feel as I do, offer Marina your support.

And, as I stated at the beginning of my blog, at the end of my article I will ask for an apology from Judyth to Marina. An apology for slander would be a good place to start.