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"Mafia Lawyer" example in Rep. Wolf's Letter to Attorney General: Inadvertent Criticism of Warren Commission Appointees' Conflicted Interests?

Guest Tom Scully

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Guest Tom Scully

Glen Greenwald devoted three recent columns to this sudden, rabid right, emphasis on examining "conflicts of interests" inside the DOJ.:

Salon Radio: The lawyers smeared by Liz Cheney

The full-scale collapse: From Murrow to Blitzer

The WP's employment of a fear-mongering smear artist

Frank R. Wolf is aligned politically with Liz and Bill, and declares this in a letter to Eric Holder.:

The decision to allow attorneys who advocated for terrorists held at Guantanamo to craft detainee policy during the War on Terror would be akin to allowing attorneys for the Mafia to draft organized crime policy during the 1960s,...

The Washington Post gives these political extremists serious attention.:


Conservatives raise ruckus over Justice appointees' prior work with detainees

The problem for these idiots shrieking at Atty. Gen. Holder and the press using Rep. Frank R. Wolf's example of the insertion of the 1960's Mafia lawyer, into a sensitive position of grave importance, appears to have actually happened, and, for the sake of consistency, shouldn't Liz, Bill, and Frank be just as eager to support full inquiry into this 1960's conflict of interest, since it is so strongly supported, (as follows) and threatens to expose bi-partisan corruption on a grand scale?

According to the posthumously (in 1974) published diaries of the late muckraker and newspaper columnist, Drew Pearson, the names of the men Pearson described in 1963, are finally revealed.:


Daytona Beach Morning Journal - Oct 26, 1963 pg. 8

Murder Of A Chicago Gambler . Washington Merry Go Round

By Drew Pearson

...I took the story back to Washington and Atty. Gen. Tom Clark authorized a dozen or so FBI men to check on Ragen's facts. A couple of weeks later, they reported that they were true. They also reported that control of the underworld reached into very high places. Some of the rulers of the underworld had become supposedly respected businessmen and politicians whose names were household words in Chicago. Some of them, it was stated, had reformed. Yet they still controlled the mob...

It was not until the 1990's that the names of the "rulers of the underworld" that Drew Pearson reported were given to J. Edgar Hoover and Tom Clark in 1946 were published; as direct quotes from the pages of Pearson's 1974 diary.:


...Tom Clark told me afterwards that it led to very high places...I learned later trhat it pointed to the Hilton Hotel chain, Henry Crown...financier in Chicago, (involved in Cook County real estate deals with Jake Arvey, the local Democratic political boss), and Walter Annenberg (son of the pre-war wire-service owner, Moe Annenberg.)

Here are some to the issues that would be dredged up if this actaul 1960's "Mafia" conflict of interests receives the consideration Rep/ Frank Wolf wants his hypothetical example to presumably receive.

1.) Tom Clark, US Atty Gen. in 1946 when Pearson claimed Clark told him that James Ragen had named Henry Crown as a top Chicago mob figure, was serving as a Supreme Court Justice by 1956, when he appointed Henry Crown's son, John, as one of his two law clerks for the 1956-57 court term.

2.) )In December, 1963, Tom Clark had to know that his former clerk, John Crown, was employed since 1959, as an associate at the law firm where Albert E. Jenner, Jr., personal attorney of Henry Crown, was a law partner. In spite of all of the conflicts I've described, Tom Clark seems to have been one of two references cited by Earl Warren to support the selection of "MAfia Lawter" Albert E. Jenner as a senior investigative counsel on the Warren Commission's staff.

3.) Albert Jenner was tasked by the seven Warren Commissioners to investigate whether of not Oswald and Ruby acted alone or whether one or both had been associated with conspirators with an emphasis, we were assured, on whether or not either suspect was associated with the Mafia. Albert E. Jenner claimed to have found no evidence of conspiracy or of Mafia involvement.

4.) Warren Commission chairman and chief justice of the US Supreme Court. Earl Warren, his wife and his daughter, Virginia were all close friends of Henry Crown's principle real estate partner, Conrad Hilton. Crown was the second largest Hilton Hotels stockholder. Mafia lawyer, Sidney Korshak, was closely associated with Hilton.

5.) On page 31. of Seth Kantor's 1978 book, titled, "Who Was Jack Ruby", Kantor describes the three men suspected of the 1946 murder of Tom Clark's informant, James Ragen, as closely associated with Jack Ruby.

6.) From Harry Truman, who appointed the ethically compromised Tom Clark to the Supreme Court,


...On October 3, 1947 Clark received Truman's appointment to the Supreme Court as part of a deal he made with The Outfit (part of Chicago's mafia)..

to Gerald Ford who "served" on the Warren Commission as secret FBI plant and was responsible for altering the Commission's final description of the location of the entrance wound in JFK's back, to Barry Goldwater, John McCain, and Barak Obama, the men named in Pearson's diary and their race wire service associates, have been a powerful influence. McCain and Goldwater's political careers were financed by Kemper Marley;s Arizona Mafia branch of the Chicago "outfit", and one of Obama's early and wealthiest political benefactors is Henry Crown's son.

Nixon appointed Walter Annenberg to be US ambassador to Britain. Annenberg was a close friend of Reagan, who was also linked to Mafia associates Lew Wasserman and Sidney Korshak.

Since Albert Jenner's legal representation of Paul and Allen Dorfman were post 1964, I have not used this subject to support the premise that Warren Commissions senior investigative counse, Albert Jenner was an "attorney for the Mafia" as described in congressman Frank R. Wolf's example, included in his March 3, 2010 letter to Eric Holder.


U.S. weekly, Volume 94, Issues 1-12‎ - Page 84

Biography & Autobiography - 1983

Albert E. Jenner, Jr., of Chicago, whose law firm represented Allen Dorfman, ...

said he would be an assassination target if it were

known in the underworld that he could disclose information about Dorfman.


Please Liz Cheney and Frank Wolf, join us in demanding a new DOJ probe into the conflict of interests riddled appointments of Albert E. Jenner, Jr., Earl Warren, and Gerald Ford to the Warren Commission, and how these appointement compromised the integrity of that Commission's investigation and the conclusions in its report. It is also reasonable and justified to delve into the Mafia's influence ib the rise of the careers of both McCain and Obama, by investigating the origins of the Hensley, Marley, and the Crown family fortunes, starting with:



264 F. Supp. 465

Harry R. BOOTH, Plaintiff, v. GENERAL DYNAMICS CORPORATION, a foreign

...Harry R. Booth, Chicago, Ill., for plaintiff.

Albert E. Jenner, Jr., Edward R. Johnston, Keith F. Bode,

Raymond, Mayer, Jenner & Block, Chicago, Ill., for defendant.


Lions in the street: the inside story of the great Wall Street law firms‎ - Page 14

Paul Hoffman - Law - 1973 - 244 pages

Gilpatric himself had an office in General Dynamics' headquarters in Rockefeller

Center and had advised the company on its acquisition of Material Services ...


Captive city‎ - Page 216

Ovid Demaris - Social Science - 1969 - 366 pages

16 Attorney Harry Booth is Chicago's most formidable dragon slayer. Frail,

myopic, rumpled and no taller or heavier than a jockey, his favorite

mount is a monolithic public utility. The bigger they are, the faster they run

when the diminutive attorney gets that riding gleam behind his thick-lensed spectacles. ....

...Crown was to grow up to become the greatest exponent of sand and gravel in the world— virtually

transforming sanitary district sand piles and quarries into gold mines.

"Henry Crown," said Booth, "views the Sanitary District as a small subsidiary of

Material Service Corporation." From the mid 1920s to the early 1940s, Crown purchased nearly 1000

acres of district land through nominees — Benjamin Z. Gould, general counsel of MSC,

and one Clarence R. Serb — without competitive bidding, paying an average of $64 an acre.

These vast holdings, plus another 420 acres held under long-term leases negotiated mostly in the 1950s, literally formed the foundation of MSC. These properties had mountains of earth and rock deposits on their surface (spoil banks rich in limestone used for crushed rock and cement) which were the residue from channel widening and deepening at the turn of the century. They saved MSC the expense of quarrying for years. In his complaint, Booth pointed out that "none of the leases approved by the Trustees authorized Material Service Corporation to engage in excavation of sand, gravel, or other materials from below the surface of the ground. On information and belief Material Service Corporation has engaged in extensive excavating operations and removed enormous quantities of sand, gravel, limestone and other materials from below the surface of the ground which it has sold. . .[obtaining] large revenues . . . and has unjustly and unlawfully enriched itself thereby.

. . . All such acts and operations . . .

are illegal and beyond the power granted . . . under the laws of the State of Illinois. ...

From time to time Material Service Corporation has also been granted sub-leases

and short-term leases also at inadequate rentals as well as buy the right to take other spoil banks at nominal prices.

Pg 215

Edited by Tom Scully
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AFAIK RR was FBI informant SF T - ? (1), ie he reported to the Tomato salesmens buddy. (sideline - got this vague memory of Oswald mentioning something about fruit or vegie shops during one of the radio interviews, can't remember the context)

I wonder how much of it was mineral sands? Also, I don't know if a look back to the two Charlies under Eisenhower might bear some fruit given the Gen. Dyn. reference, which I suppose also has a tie in with an extraction of particular minerals, and hence perhaps a tie to the nuclear bandwagon and I suppose ultimately war.

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Guest Tom Scully

The most prominent "lawyer for the Mafia" in U.S. history, succeeded Tony Accardo's lawyer, Stanford Clinton,

as Allen Dorfman's lawyer. Why did Earl Warren appoint "lawyer for the Mafia," Albert E. Jenner to such a sensitive position on the Warren Commission's investigative staff? Why did Tom Clark support the appointment of Jenner by Earl Warren? Why did LBJ pardon a man convicted of lying about the ransom money in the kidnapping and murder of a six years old chilld?


FBI History

Famous Cases - The Greenlease Kidnapping

The Crime

At approximately 10:55 a.m. on September 28, 1953, Sister Morand of the French Institute of Notre Dame De Sion, a school for small children in Kansas City, Missouri, answered the door and was confronted by a woman who said she was the aunt of Bobby Greenlease. Robert Cosgrove Greenlease, Jr., known as Bobby, was six years old and the son of Robert Cosgrove Greenlease, Sr., a wealthy automobile dealer who resided in Mission Hills, Kansas City, Missouri....

...The second ransom letter was postmarked 9:30 p.m. on September 29, 1953. Inside the envelope in which this letter was mailed was the Jerusalem medal which had been worn by Bobby Greenlease. The letter again contained demands for $600,000 and stated that Bobby was okay but homesick. Overall, the Greenleases received over a half dozen ransom notes and 15 telephone calls.

The final communication between the Greenleases and the kidnappers was a telephone call received at 1:00 a.m. on October 5, 1953, at the Greenlease residence. The kidnappers stated that they had received the $600,000 ransom money and assured the Greenleases that their son was alive and that he would be returned in 24 hours.

Unknown to the family, the kidnappers, Carl Hall and Bonnie Heady, had killed the boy soon after the abduction and buried the body near Heady's house in St. Joseph, Missouri. Then the two murderers took the ransom money and traveled approximately 380 miles to St. Louis, Missouri....

The Judgement...

...Carl Austin Hall and Bonnie Emily Heady were executed together in Missouri's lethal gas chamber at the State Penitentiary, Jefferson City, Missouri, on December 18, 1953. Hall was pronounced dead at 12:12 a.m. and Bonnie Heady was pronounced dead twenty seconds later.

Over half of the $600,000 was never found. FBI investigation established that the two suitcases which reportedly contained the ransom money, and which were in Hall's possession at the time of his arrest, were not brought to the 11th District Precinct Station as testified by the arresting officers, Lieutenant Louis Ira Shoulders and Patrolman Elmer Dolan. Both officers were subsequently federally indicted for perjury. Lieutenant Shoulders was convicted on April 15, 1954, and sentenced to three years in prison, and patrolman Dolan was convicted on March 31, 1954, and sentenced to two years. After they were released from prison, both returned to the St. Louis area. Shoulders died on May 12, 1962. Dolan received a full pardon from President Johnson on July 21, 1965.


...The FBI's best guess is that the other $300,000 got laundered through Teamsters rackets in Chicago. Most of it never turned up.




Pay-Per-View - Chicago Tribune - ProQuest Archiver - Jul 12, 1960

EXPECT RULING ON ACCARDO S TAX TUESDAY. Arguments on a motion to dismiss an income ... Stanford Clinton, Accardo's attorney. Robert Tieken, United States ..

Anthony Accardo;Stanford Clinton - LIFE

Gangster, Anthony Accardo (L) during trial for evasion of income tax w. lawyer Stanford Clinton ®. (Photo by Francis Miller//Time Life Pictures/Getty ...


T H E S A T U R D A Y E V E N I N G P O S T - August 1, 1959


Revelations of the Third Hearing


As the mystery surrounding certain union affairs

deepened, Kennedy's investigators

made a desperate last-minute search for new evidence

to topple the Teamsters' boss.


\_)n Sunday morning, June 5, 1955, David Probstcin, an Indianapolis lavv-yer, was greatly

agitated when he called another lawyer, James Wood, Jr., to his expensive home. Prohstcin

and his wife sent their little boy out to play, then Probstein said he was in great dangerhe

had become involved with dangerous people and now was going away on a dangerous

mission, and he asked Wood to be lenient about foreclosing a mortgage on his home if he

failed to return. Wood asked where he was going. Probstein said, "Well, all I can tell you

is that I am going to St. Louis, and then I am going East," Mrs. Probstein said her husband

had been talking like this for "several weeks." Wood pressed him. Whom was he involved

with? Had it anything to do with the State Cab Company, Probstein's taxicah company, which

was in financial difficulties? Probstcin would say nothing, "He was a scared man," said

Wood, Probstein left for St, Louis later that day. His wife. Wood and the police never saw

him again.

Nearly three years later an investigator for the McClellan committee on labor and management

rackets, Walt Sheridan, a slender, clean-cut ex-FBI man of thirty-three, stumbled

onto this story in Indianapolis. Mrs. Probstein said that shortly before her husband

disappeared, he had telephoned Jimmy HofFa. Hoffa now was president of the Teamsters

Union and the chief target of the McClellan committee, Sheridan hurried to Washington.

Bob Kennedy, the committee's chief counsel, told him to pursue the case.

The Probstein story and other fantastic tales were told at the third hearings the committee

held on Jimmy Hoffa in August and September of 1958—a renewal of its long effort

to dislodge Hoffa from his seat of power.

Early in 19,'54, Dave Probstein, once described as a "pesty little fellow" who "gets in

your hair," an undistinguished lawyer with little money and no previous connection with

the taxicab business, suddenly formed State Cab, saying that he had plenty of financial

backing from undisclosed sources. The rumor around town was that the Teamsters Union

was hacking Probstein; State Cab would be unionized and so, in time, would all Indianapolis


The Teamster leader in Indianapolis was Gene San Soucie, a dark, dapper, muscular

man with the manner of an overbearing actor. He is close to Jimmy Hoffa. Formerly he had

been a business agent for Harold Gibbons, Teamster leader in St, Louis, He had been

arrested several times, but convicted only once, for trespass. San Soucie says Dave Probstein

asked him for help in financing State Cab. San Soucie took him to Detroit and introduced him

to Jimmy Hoffa and Bert Brennan, Hoffa's "partner" in unionism and many private ventures.

They lent him §8000. The money came from a company owned by Hoffa's wife and

Brennan's wife. But Probstein had started the cab company earlier with ^20,000. Where did

it come from? Not, Hoffa says, from him. Oddly, the union never had a contract with

State Cah, On September 16, 1 Sí*, a bank account was opened in Indianapolis in the name of Aldor

Insurance Agency, Inc.; the authorized signatures were David Prohstcin and Allen M.

Dorfman, Dorfman is a Chicago insurance man deeply (Continued on Page SO)

(Continued from Page .It))

involved with Jimmy Hoffa nnd the son of il key figure in the Chicago undenvorld.

At about the same time, Dave Probstcin ' moved State Cab into the insurance

agency's otiicc. And on October twenty seventh Jimmy HotTa's Detroit local deposited

S125.000 in thesimie Indianapolis bank. Hofla testified it was put there to

warn employers that San Soucie's local had money behind it. But why was it

deposited in a checking account where it would earn no interest? And why

didn't Hoffa simply announce publicly that his credit was behind San Soucie?

Bob Kennedy says nobody has ever properly explained the S125,OOO. He

suspects that HofTa deposited it to guarantee further bank loans to State Cab. as

he once had done in a Florida land scheme in which he had a hidden interest.

Hoffa denies it. Not a penny of the S125,000 ever was withdrawn up to the time

of the committee hearings four years later.

State Cab lost money from the start. Late in 1954 Probstein told friends that

somebody was coming in from St. Louis to look it over. About December tenth

two husky Teamsters from St. Louis. Ben Saltzman and Bamey Baker, veterans

of violent St. Louis taxicab strikes, arrived. Bamey Baker's former wife says

that Baker told her he had to go to Indianapolis "to take care of a shyster

lawyer for Jimmy Hoffa, and if he did this one more job for Jimmy, he would be

close [to Hoffa] forever." Baker denies this. In any case. Probstein was removed

as president of State Cab and replaced by Gus Zapas, a Chicagoan once convicted

of burglary who had been hired as a Teamster business agent by San Soucie.

San Soucie says he put Zapas into State Cab at Probstein's request. But a secretary

says that Zapas told Probstein he was through and said something about killing

Probstein. Zapas denies the threat. About six weeks later Probstein was told he was

also through as the from man for Allen Dorfman's insurance agency.

In April Dave Probstein's mortgage came up for foreclosure. On April twenty ninth

Probstein telephoned Jimmy Hoffa in Detroit. He called him again May

second. On May third he called a Chicago attorney associated with Allen

Dorfman. On May sixth he called Hoffa's accountant. On May tenth or eleventh he

met at the insurance office with Allen Dorfman and two other men. Kennedy

charges that Dorfman had advanced Probstein money to buy up tax liens, that

Probstein had diverted most of it to his private use. and that Dorfman now

wanted either the liens or the money. A secretary testified. "They gave him until

the first part of June." On Sunday, June fifth, Probstein disappeared. He telephoned

his wife from St. Louis on Monday, saying he was driving to New York

with "some men" and would call her from there. He never did.

Walt Sheridan, concluding his investigation in Indianapolis, went to St. Louis;

Probstein had checked into the Congress Hotel and was last seen there at four P.M.

Monday. It was at an annex of the Congress that Carl Austin Hall, the kidnaper

and murderer of the child. Bobby Greenlease. had been arrested October 6. 1953.

At the time of the arrest half the ransom, S300.000, disappeared. The lieutenant

and patrolman who arrested Hall were convicted of perjury. The S300,000 never

was found. It was the hottest thing in the Midwest, Only a little of it ever has turned

up. FBI agents are still working on tt.

TTiey suspect that Joe Costello, a notorious fence who owned the Ace Cab Company

in St. Louis, fenced the money through the Chicago underworld, perhaps

via John Vitale, head of the St. Louis syndicate,

Sheridan was working on the theory that Dave Probstein may have been a

courier for the Greenlease money—that that was his "dangerous mission." A few

of the ransom bills turned up in August, 1955, about two months after Probstcin

disappeared, in towns between St. Louis and Chicago, A carnival had recently

visited several towns where they turned up. And the Teamsters had been organizing

carnival workers. Barney Baker was a close associate of Joe Costello and

John Vitale, According to the testimony of Baker's former wife at the committee

hearings. Baker told her that Joe Costello had shot himself during the Greenlease

investigation because he got the Greenlease money. She was afraid to testify

about it—"After all, 1 have a little girl to raise, and I know what 1 am dealing with.

You may not know these people, but I do. . . . I may get killed for telling," She

said that every time the heat was on Jimmy Hoffa or Harold Gibbons would

put Bitrney Baker in a hospital to get him out of sight, though they called it "weight

reducing." And the testimony showed that two days after the Greenlease ransom

disappeared, Barney Baker went Into the Battle Creek Sanitarium and

stayed three weeks, his bills paid by Jimmy Hoffa's Detroit Joint Council of


A year later Baker turned up In Indianapolis, as we have seen, when Dave

Probstein was replaced at State Cab by Gus Zapas. Baker told his wife Zapas was

his best friend. And about the time the first Greenlease money appeared after

Dave Probstein vanished. Barney Baker went into a hospital again and stayed a

month. Zapas denied handling, any "hot money," but when Kennedy asked

whether he had received "any money other than from a union since 1953." he

said. "I don't recall. I have exchanged a lot of money, but never as salary." Kennedy

said, "That is why we are so interested in you, Mr. Zapas, that you have

exchanged a great deal of money." And here the trail of Dave Probstein ended.

Barney Baker, Zapas, San Soucie and Jimmy Hoffa all say they don't know

what happened to him. Hoffa said recently, "State Cab—we had nothing to do

with the damn cab company. We had nothing to do with it."

Another main line of inquiry at the third Hoffa hearings was Barney Baker

himself. Baker was almost globular, 385 pounds. Once he ate thirty-eight pounds

of meat at a sitting. Born in New York City in 1911, he hung around the New

York water front as a youth, was a prize fighter for a time, and during labor trouble

in 1934, was convicted of throwing stink bombs in movie theaters. In 1936

he was shot on a Manhattan street while in the company of two water-front mobsters

and John O'Rourke, today one of Jimmy Hoffa's vice presidents of the

Teamsters. At that time, according to one expert at the hearings. Baker was a strongarm

man who participated in a waterfront racket. Baker denied it—"1 knew

the people that did, but I did not." "Who were the people that did?"

Kennedy asked.

"A Mr, Dunne." "Cockeyed Dunne?" "I don't know him as Cockeyed Dunne. I knew him as John Dunne."

"Where is he now?" Baker said, "He has met his Maker,** "How did he do that?"

"i believe through electrocution in the City of New York of the State of New


JJunne killed a man in 1947. Baker was by then a bouncer and an escort for big

winners at the Colonial Inn, a Florida gambling joint controlled by Frank Costello's

syndicate. During the murder investigation. Baker went to Las Vegas

where Bupy Siegel was building a resort and hid out—"I was hibernating."

Soon Barney Baker turned up in Washington, D.C, driving a truck and living

with a woman named Mollie. In 1950 a daughter was born to them and in 1952

they were married. He told her about his past after their child was bom. In

1950 Baker became president of a Teamster local in Washington. In the spring

of 1952 he became head of a labor committee for Averell Harriman, then campaigning

for the Democratic presidential nomination. Baker helped Harriman win

the Washington primary.

Moilie Baker said her husband was very close to Harriman. had a picture inscribed,

"To my dearest friend, Bamey, Averel! Harriman," and once was entertained

by Harriman at the home of Perle Mesta. Bamey Baker himself testified,

"Entertained? They had a party there, a victory party, for around a thousand

people there, all the rooters and everyone had worked for him. They went out there

for a wiener roast, grabbed a sandwich and went on home." Harriman never had

written a personal inscription on the photograph—"1 am a ham at heart, and

I might have wrote it down myself, and I drop names, and I talk big." He never

had really been close to Harriman; he simply had been bragging to his wife.

At an Americans for Democratic Action dinner that spring he met Harold

Gibbons, the St. Louis Teamster who was then on the A.D.A.'s board and who

is today Jimmy Hoffa's right-hand man. Gibbons hired him as a Teamster organizer

in St. Louis. Baker told Mollie he was Gibbons' bodyguard. The police suspected

him of being a Teamster strongarm man in Gibbons' violent taxicab

strikes. They tailed him often and once picked him up with a gun. Kennedy said,

"It is just a coincidence that every place you go, there happens to be violence."

He said, "My job was to organize unorganized workers."

In 1953 and 1954, as we have seen, Bamey Baker may have been involved

in the Greenlease and Probstein eases. though he deni&s it. In the spring of 1955

Baker went to Florida....

...On December 9, 1955. Ruth was suddenly taken off to jail. Her appeal had

failed. Five days later Harold Gibbons ordered Burke to leave Miami immediately

and "report for assignment" to Jimmy Hoffa in Detroit. Barney Baker

went home to St. Louis on Christmas Eve, bringing jewelry. Mollie had divorced

him because of Ruth Brougher, Baker tried to sell her a ring, but Joe

Costello told her it wasn't worth the price. Before long Baker married a pretty college graduate....

...Kennedy put in, "Mr, Chairman." but Baker went on, "I lived a life, Mr. Chairman,

It might not have been all lilywhite, and it might have been twenty-six

years ago. What is the pay-olT? Where is lhe penalty? When docs it stop? Why

don't they stop harassing people',' I can explain the gun incidents, I can explain

the jewel incident, I can explain everything. Btjl that is nothing. When they try

to take a man as a political pig and destroy him and cut him up because my

name is bad, 'Throw Baker in with him and you will defeat him come November,

. . ,' [Harriman] don't even know what I look like. Sure I attended places.

Excuse me. Excuse me, Mr, Kennedy, I will wait until you ask me the questions."

VXhile Kennedy was hammering at Baker's union activities and gangster

connections, the senators were politicizing. Senator Ives, a Republican, questioned

Baker about Harriman; and Senator Kennedy, a Democrat, strove valiantly

to protect Harriman; and Baker. caught in the cross fire, squirmed and

said, "I know everybody is pitching and I am taking. But let me consult my lawyer."

Ives asked if he had been more active than anybody else in the Washington

primar>', and Baker said, "The same as if I was working for you, senator, and I iidmireyouagreat

deal for your liberal outlook of life," Senator Ives said, "I appreciate

the compliment, but 1 would rather you would not work for me."

Senator McClellan said, "Proceed. Let us have order,"

Bob Kennedy said, "I don't want Mr. Baker to leave the stand with the idea

that he is just some kind of a Teamster jokester." Then, turning to Baker, Kennedy

recapitulated the testimony, always addressing Baker; "You" were a close

a^ociate of New York gangsters; "you" went to St, Louis and became involved

with Joe Costello, who handled the Greenlease money ; "you" associated

with John Vitale, head of the St, Louis syndicate; "you" took pay-offs from employers.

"1 just say." Kennedy concluded, "that these people are the scum of the

United States, the people you are associated with, and you are a part of them, Mr. Baker."

Jimmy Hoffa said he hadn't known of Baker's record when the Teamsters hired

him. but now that he'd heard about it, "it doesn'l disturb me one iota."

The committee devoted much attention during the third Hoffa hearing.1 to

Harold Gibbons, the Teamster leader in St, Louis. Gibbons is a tali, rangy, articulate

man of forty-nine with a high. freckled forehead and quick eyes, getting

bald. He seems to care deeply about the labor movement. Gibbons has often been

called "the Teamsters' egghead." Asked by Senator Ives whether he was "in

cahoots" with Johnny Dio, the New York racketeer. Gibbons replied, "No. 1 am

friendly at the point that Dulles and Eisenhower might be friendly with Ibn

Saud," surely an answer no other Teamster would have made. In the A.D.A. he

was considered an intellectual of the trade-union movement, an actionist of

the liberal movement. It has been said that "Gibbons is the

brains and Hoffa is the muscle." To say this is to underestimate both Hoffa's

brains and Gibbons' muscle. They differ, however, in many ways....



43A. Signature card of Aldor Insurance Agency, Inc., signed

by David Probstein, president, and Allen Dorfman,


44. Ledger sheet of the account of Union Loan & Finance

Corp., September 17, 1954, with initial deposit of $3,000

44A. Signature card of Union Loan & Finance Corp., signed

by David Probstein, president, and Allen Dorfman,


45. Ledger sheet of International Brotherhood of Team-

sters account, with initial deposit of $125,000,

October 27, 1954 ...




United States Senate,

Select Committee on Improper Activities

in the Labor or Management Field, Washington, D. C.

The select committee met at 10 a. m., pursuant to Senate Resolution

74, agreed to January 30, 1957, in the caucus room, Senate Office

Building, Senator John L. McClellan (chairman of the select com-

mittee) presiding.

Present: Senator John L. McClellan, Democrat, Arkansas; Sena-

tor Karl E. Mundt, Republican, South Dakota.

Also present : Robert F. Kennedy, chief counsel ; P. Kenneth O'Don-

nell, assistant counsel ; Irwin Langenbacher, assistant counsel ; Pierre

Salinger, investigator; Walter Sheridan, investigator; Carmine S.

Bellino, accounting consultant ; Ruth Young Watt, chief clerk.

Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Allen Dorf man.

The Chairman. You do solemnly swear that the evidence you shall

give before this Senate select committee shall be the truth, the whole

truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?

Mr. Dorfman. I do.


...Mr. Kennedy. Was it ?

Mr. Dorfman. It never was.

Mr. Kennedy. It never was ? You never had an interest in it ?

Mr. Dorfman. It is my agency. It has been just a name. It is not


Mr. Kennedy. You never had any books or records for it ?

Mr. Dorfman. No, sir.

David Probstein, general agent, Union Casualty Co. ? I have

covered that about a dozen times with your investigators. That

comes under Allen Dorfman, general agent. For all intents and pur-

poses they are identical companies.

The Chairman. If they are identical, there is no question about


(The witness conferred with his counsel.)...


United States Senate,

Select Committee on Improper Activities

in the Labor or Management Field, Washington, D. C.

...The Chairman. Call the next witness.

Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Francis Moore, of the Fidelity Bank & Trust

Co., and I believe there are two gentlemen. ...

...Mr. Kennedy. I would like with the help of you gentlemen to get in

the record certain facts regarding certain bank accounts that were

opened at the Fidelity Bank & Trust Co., in Indianapolis.

Now, was there an account opened on or about January 7, 1954, in

the name of Mr. David Probstein, trust ee ?

The Chairman. Before you proceed further, are you officers of this


Mr. Lewis. Mr. Moore is vice president of the bank, and I am gen-

eral counsel for (he bank and I am a member of the board of directors

of (he bank.

The ( Chairman. Proceed.

Mr. Moore. We had an account opened for David Probstein, trustee,

on January 3, 1955.

Mr. Kennedy. How much was deposited at that time ?

Mr. Moore. $20,000 on a signature card.

Mr. Kennedy. Are you sure of that date, January 7, 1954, 1 believe?

Mr. Moore. 1 beg your pardon, I was looking at the ledger card.

It is January 7, 1954.

Mr. Kennedy. That was money deposited in the account of David

Probstein, trustee?

Mr. Moore. Yes. sir.

Mr. Kennedy. Who were on the signature cards, or what did the

signature cards show '.

Mr. Moore. David Probstein, trustee.

Mr. Kennedy. Did he come in and deposit that money personally,

can you tell from the records ?

Mr. Moore. Based on this information here, I would say that he

did come in personallv, and deposit the money.

Mr. Kennedy. The $20,000 ?

Mr. Moore. Yes, sir.

Mr. Kennedy. Is that by check or cash, can you tell ?

Mr. Moore. I understood by check.

Mr. Kennedy. By check ?

Mr. Moore. Yes, sir.

Mr. Kennedy. On the following day, January 8, do the records

show that he withdrew some money from that account ?

Mr. Moore. I am sorry, sir, I don't have the ledger card on that

with me.

Mr. Kennedy. All right. Did he establish another account the fol-

lowing day, then ?

Mr. Moore. There were several accounts in the bank that Mr. Prob-

stein was connected with.

Mr. Kennedy. Did he establish one on January 8 ? I just want to

follow this chonologically. Did he establish one on January 8, 1954 ?'

Mr. Moore. I don't have the evidence of it here.

Mr. Kennedy. In the name of State Cab, Inc. ?

Mr. Moore. There was an account established in the name of the

State Cab Co. on January 8, 1954, with a deposit of $17,500.

Mr. Kennedy. $17,500 ?

Mr. Moore. Yes, sir.

Mr. Kennedy. Was that by check or by cash ?

Mr. Moore. From appearances, it would be by check.

Mr. Kennedy. Now, Mr. Chairman, could we have the documents

on those 2 bank accounts made exhibits, and offer the signature cards

for those 2 bank accounts?

The Chairman. Gentlemen, let the original documents be submitted

and we can arrange for photostatic copies later, if you desire.

Mr. Moore. Yes, sir.

The Chairman. The ledger accounts will be made exhibit 41, and

the signature card will be made exhibit 41 (A) .

Do you have more than one account ?

Mr. Kennedy. We have two accounts as of this type. One is on

David Probstein, trustee, established on January 7, 1954, and another

one on State Cab, Inc., account, established January 8, 1954, with a

deposit of $17,500. What does the signature card on State Cab, Inc.,

show ?

The Chairman. Let me get this record straight. The ledger sheet

on the January 7 account in the amount of $20,000 will be made ex-

hibit 41, and the signature card for it will be made 41-A, and the

ledger sheet on the State Cab Co. account opened January 8, in the

amount of $17,500 will be made exhibit 42, and the signature card

for it 42-A.

(The documents referred to were marked "Exhibit Nos. 41 and 41-

A," also "42 and 42-A," for reference, and may be found in the files of

the select committee.)

Mr. Kennedy. What does the signature card on the State Cab ac-

count show ?

Mr. Moore. The signature card of State Cab, Inc., shows the au-

thorized signature to be David Probstein.

Mr. Kennedy. Then on July 20, 1954, was the State Cab, Inc., ex-

tended a loan by your bank, a loan of $27,083.28 ?

Mr. Moore. Yes, sir; on July 13, 1954, an installment loan was made

to the State Cab Co. in the total amount of $27,083.28. We held as

collateral to this loan, 12 1954 Fords, 12 mobile Motorola and 2-way

radios, and 1 transmitter unit and tire, and chattel mortgage on office

furniture and air conditioner, and time clock.

Mr. Kennedy. On September 17, 1954, was there a bank account

opened in the name of Alclor Insurance Agency ?

Mr. Moore. On September 16, 1954, an account was opened in the

name of Aldor Insurance Agency, Inc., and the authorized signature

was David Probstein, president; Allen M. Dorfman, treasurer.

Mr. Kennedy. Allen Dorfman was the treasurer ?

Mr. Moore. Yes, sir.

Mr. Kennedy. And David Probstein was the president, is that

correct ?

Mr. Moore. That is correct ; yes, sir.

Mr. Kennedy. What was the amount of that account ?

Mr. Moore. The initial deposit was $3,000.

Mr. Kennedy. Do you have the signature card there ?

Mr. Moore. Yes, sir.

Mr. Kennedy. Could we have that as an exhibit?

The Chairman. The account of the Aldor Insurance Agency may

be made exhibit 43, and the signature card 43-A.

(Documents referred to were marked "Exhibits Nos. 43 and 43-A,"

for reference, and may be found in the files of the select committee.)

Mr. Kennedy. I might point out here that the Allen Dorfman Co.,

and not this Aldor Insurance Co., but another one of his companies, is

the agent handling the insurance for the Central States Conference

of the Teamsters.

The Chairman. All right.

Mr. Kennedy. Now, there was also an account opened in the name

of the Union Loan & Finance Corp. on that same day ?

Mr. Moore. On September 16, 1954, a $3,000 account was opened in

the name of Union Loan & Finance Corp., David Probstein, presi-

dent ; Allen M. Dorfman, treasurer.

The Chairman. That account may be made exhibit 44 and the sig-

nature card 44-A.

(Documents referred to were marked "Exhibits Nos. 44 and 44-A,"

for reference, and may be found in the files of the select committee.)

Mr. Kennedy. How much was the deposit, the initial deposit in

that account ?

The Chairman". I believe you stated the initial deposit was $3,000.

Mr. Kennedy. This is in the Union Loan & Finance Corp., and it

was $3,000 in both, I believe.

Mr. Moore. The initial deposit was $3,000.

Mr. Kennedy. Now, on October 22, 1954, or thereabouts, did you

receive some money from Local 299 of the International Brotherhood

of Teamsters in your bank?

Mr. Moore. On October 27, 1954, an account was opened in the

name of the International Brotherhood of Teamsters, Chauffeurs,

Stablemen, and Helpers of America, Local Union 299, 2741 Trumbull,

Detroit, Mich. The authorized signatures — and this happens to be a

replacement card, and I don't have the original card here, and the

replacement card shows that authorized signatures are James R.

Hoffa and Frank Collins.

Mr. Kennedy. That was for $125,000?

Mr. Moore. That is correct.

Mr. Kennedy. That is from local 299 i

Air. Moore. Yes, sir.

Mr. Kennedy. Do you have the original authorization or do we

have the original authorization ?

Mr. Lewis. You have the only one we have, Mr. Kennedy.

The Chairman. I present to you a document and ask you to examine

it and state what it is.

(A document was handed to the witness.)

Mr. Moore. This is a picture of the original authorization.

The Chairman. It is a photostatic copy of the original authori-

zation ?

Mr. Moore. That is correct ; yes, sir.

The Chairman. Let the ledger sheet of the International Brother-

hood of Teamsters, Local 299, with the initial deposit of $125,000,

be made exhibit No. 45 and the signature card or authorization for it

be made exhibit 45-A.

(Documents referred to were marked "Exhibits Nos. 45 and 45-A,"

for reference and may be found in the files of the select committee.)

Mr. Kennedy. What has happened to the original card, the original

signature card ?

Mr. Moore. Sir, we attempted to locate it, and we didn't find it.

In many cases where there is an original signature card involved,

when it is supplemented by a new permanent card, the original is


Mr. Kennedy. What are the names on the replacement card ?

Mr. Moore. James R. Hotfa and Frank Collins.

Mr. Kennedy. How did that account happen to come into your


Mr. Moore. To the best of my recollection, it came in in the normal

course of business, and I don't recall specifically having looked at the

account, and the check in connection with it, the girl must have re-

ferred it to me as floor officer at the time, and it was made payable

to the Fidelity Bank & Trust Co. At that particular time, in 1954,

there was no Fidelity Bank & Trust Co., and our bank name was

Fidelity Trust Co. Apparently I referred the check back to the girl

and told her to correct it by endorsement, and when it was returned to

me typed, and I signed it.

Mr. Kennedy. What do your records show as to who introduced

the account into the bank ?

Mr. Moore. It would be my idea that it was referred to me because

the authority of the association has my handwriting on it, and I would

think from that that it was referred directly to me at the time.

Mr. Kennedy. By whom was it brought in ?

Mr. Moore. The signatures authorized at the time that this tempor-

ary association form was made up was Gene San Soucie and Norman

C. Murrin.

Mr. Kennedy. Who was Gene San Soucie ?

Mr. Moore. He was president of the local teamsters at Indianapolis.

Mr. Kennedy. Who was the other gentleman ?

Mr. Moore. He is secretary of the local union in Indianapolis.

Mr. Kennedy. What is his name ?

Mr. Moore. Norman C. Murrin.

Mr. Kennedy. Could I have that, please ? Who brought this in

to you ?

Mr. Moore. I don't recall definitely who did bring it in, but with

the signatures on the form you are looking at 1 would presume that

possibly Mr. San Soucie brought it in.

Mr. Kennedy. Do you know what the purpose of this account was ?

Mr. Moore. No, sir ; nothing other than the deposit of the account.

Mr. Kennedy. Why would local 299 in Detroit be sending $125,000

to this bank in Indianapolis ?

Mr. Moore. I wouldn't know that. We have other out-of-town de-

positors, and it was considered to be a normal thing.

Mr. Kennedy. Doesn't the local itself, which Mr. San Soucie is

president of, don't they have their own bank accounts in Indianapolis?

Mr. Moore. I believe they do ; yes, sir.

Mr. Kennedy. What I am trying to understand is if you have any

explanation as to why local 299 in Detroit, a local union in Detroit,

would be sending $125,000 to a bank in Indianapolis ?

Mr. Moore. I wouldn't have any idea why, other than just

Mr. Kennedy. Did you ever talk to Mr. Hoffa about it ?

Mr. Moore. No, sir.

21243—58 — pt. 37 7

Mr. Kennedy. Do you know if anybody from your bank talked to

Mr. Hoffa about it ?

Mr. Moore. No, sir ; I don't.

Mr. Kennedy. You can't tell us any more about your conversa-

tions with Mr. San Soucie regarding this?

Mr. Moore. No, sir; I couldn't. I don't recall any conversation

I had at all on the account.

Mr. Kennedy. Was any money withdrawn out of the account ?

Mr. Moore. No, sir; it is still on the account in full, $125,000, with

proper signatures, and it could be withdrawn.

Mr. Kennedy. Now, it says here this is the Fidelity Trust Co., In-

ternational Brotherhood of Teamsters, Chauffeurs, Stablemen, and

Helpers of America, Local Union 299, and then it gives as president

Gene San Soucie. Gene San Soucie is not president of local 299.

Mr. Moore. I noticed that, too, and I couldn't understand it at the

time. At the particular time I didn't know whether Mr. San Soucie

was president of it or not. I didn't know who was president of the


Mr. Kennedy. So you do remember the incident ?

Mr. Moore. No, sir; not particularly, I don't remember.

Mr. Kennedy. You remember being struck by the fact that Mr. San

Soucie is listed as president of 299 ?

Mr. Moore. At that time, I didn't know who was president of the

local union, or 299. I had been away from the city and I returned to

the Fidelity Trust Co. in 1953 from California and I didn't know

whether that was a proper signature or not.

Mr. Kennedy. Well, now, these are officers of a local in Indianapolis,

and yet it says here that they are president and secretary of local 299

in Detroit ?

Mr. Moore. That is right.

Mr. Kennedy. You don T t have any explanation for that?

Mr. Moore. No, sir ; I don't.

The Chairman. When did you discover that Mr. San Soucie was

not president of local 299 ?

Mr. Moore. When the permanent authority was received in the bank,

and we had a permanent authority which was received in November of

1954, November 10, 1954, and it was drawn for the account known as

Truck Drivers Local Union 299. The authorized signatures on that

were James R. Hoffa, president, and Frank Collins, secretary-treas-

urer. It required two signatures to withdraw any funds from the


The Chairman. Do you have a temporary authority, and then a

permanent authority ?

Mr. Moore. Yes, sir ; we do, and very often when there is an account

opened up, we give out the permanent authority, and it is signed

and sent back to the bank to replace the one we have on file.

The Chairman. You first got the authority, or the signatures of

San Soucie and Murrin, is that correct ?

Mr. Moore. That was a temporary authority, yes, sir.

The Chairman. Well, does that permanent authority cancel out the

temporary authority ?

Mr. Moore. Yes, sir.

The Chairman. Does the temporary authority have any part to

play in the transaction ?

Mr. Moore. No, sir.

The Chairman. In other words, somebody else just comes in and

puts in a card and says, "We can draw this money out," and you take


Mr. Moore. We had to go by the authority we received finally, with

the complete signatures.

The Chairman. I am not questioning it, but I just see here, two peo-

ple put the money in the bank, $125,000, and they certify they are

the ones to draw it out. Two weeks later you get a card, another au-

thorization, and two other people certify they are the ones to draw

on the account. How do you know which ones are authorized ?

Mr. Moore. We don't always know exactly who is to draw it out,

except by the final resolution that we have, the final authority that we


The Chairman. That is if another one came in tomorrow with two

other names, what would happen ? Do you consult the original deposi-

tors, as to whether this new authority is correct?

Mr. Moore. No, sir ; we don't. We give them a copy of a supple-

mental authority, such as I have here, for them to have sent in to

replace the temporary one.

The Chairman. If I go down and deposit $125,000 in your bank,

and sign my name to a card, and say I am the one to draw it out, I

don't see how Mr. Kennedy could come along the next day and hand

you a card and say he is going to draw it out. That doesn't make

sense to me, without my consent, or without the original depositor

consenting to it.

Mr. Lewis. May I answer that ?

The Chairman. I don't understand it.

Mr. Lewis. A depository authority for a voluntary association or a

corporation is somewhat different from an individual who signs a

signature card. If an individual comes in and opens an account and

signs a signature card, it takes that individual's signature to transfer

that account to someone else. But this is what we call a voluntary

association depository authority, used for lodges, churches, and unions,

and union eorporated organizations.

The original signatures can be replaced at any time by proper

resolution of the duly authorized officers of the voluntary association

sending in a change of signatures, or a change of authority.

The Chairman. I can understand that. Is that the way this hap-

pened ?

Mr. Lewis. Undoubtedly what happened in this case, and I don't

know what happened, and I have been trying to look through it to

see what happened, the two gentlemen who brought this account in

originally were apparently the men San Soucie and Murrin. They

opened the account for the bank to have something in its files to

indicate the authority to have the money. They signed this temporary


It may be that there wasn't a signature card originally, and they

couldn't have withdrawn it without the signature card. Undoubtedly

a bank officer told them to get the proper authorization from the men

in Detroit, and send it in. It came in in due course in about the

usual mail time, and replaced the temporary holding in the bank of

the depository authority.

The Chairman. That may be correct, and I am not challenging it,

but I just didn't understand it.

Mr. Lewis. I am trying to fill in. I would say that would be a

usual transaction.

The Chairman. Proceed.

Senator Ives. I have a question. I would like to ask the witness,

the vice president, this question : How long has this $125,000 been on

deposit ?

Mr. Moore. It lias been on deposit, sir, continously since the first

day it was put in the bank.

Senator Ives. What date was that 3

Mr. Moore. October 27, 1954.

Senator Ives. Well, that is almost 4 years, isn't it ?

Mr. Moore. That is correct.

Senator Ives. You have paid interest on it regularly ?

Mr. Moore. No.

Senator Ives. No arrangements were made for interest on an

amount like that 3

Mr. Moore. No, sir, it is in a checking account.

Senator Ives. That doesn't make any difference. I have had some

experience in banking. You sometimes pay interest on balances, you

know, and I take it this money was undisturbed all of this time,

$125,000 was left there?

Air. Moore. That is correct.

Senator Ives. Reposing peacefully for your own use, and you were

getting the advantage of it and nobody else?

Mr. Moore. Yes, sir.

(At this point, the following members were present: Senators

McClellan, Ives, Goldwater, and Curtis.)

The Chairman. I hand you a photostatic copy of a check in the

amount of $125,000, dated October 21, 1954. Will you examine it and

state if that is a photostatic copy of the check that was deposited?

(The document was handed to the witness.)

Mr. Moore. Yes, sir ; it is.

The Chairman. That photostatic copy of the check may be made

exhibit No. 46.

(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 46" for

reference and will be found in the appendix on p. 14131.)

Mr. Kennedy. Was there something your bank was going to do for

the Teamsters Union or for David Probstein that brought about the

$125,000 deposit in your bank?

Mr. Moore. Not to my knowledge ; no, sir.

Mr. Kennedy. Do you know of anything, any favors that you

were going to grant to the union or to David Probstein?

Mr. Lewis. Absolutely not, Mr. Kennedy, and I have made diligent

inquiry of everyone who is an officer, of the 45 officers of that bank,

and there isn't anything like that.

Mr. Kennedy. On December 10, 1954, another account was opened,

in the amount of $2,000, was it not, in the name of David Probstein,

general agent, Union Casualty & Life Insurance Co. ?

(At this point, Senator Mundt entered the hearing room.)

Mr. Moore. Yes, sir, an account was opened on December 10, 1954,

in the amount of $2,000, David Probstein, general agent, Union Cas-

ualty & Life Insurance Co. The authorized signators are David

Probstein and Robert S. Greenfield.

Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Chairman, Robert S. Greenfield is the same

Robert S. Greenfield that appeared before the committee in connec-

tion with the investigation we were making of the Chicago Restau-

rant Association.

The Chairman. All right. Has that been made an exhibit? That

account and the signature card may be made exhibits Nos. 47 and 47A.

(The documents referred to were marked "Exhibits Nos. 47 and

47A" for reference and may be found in the files of the select commit-


Mr. Kennedy. On April 28, 1955, an account was opened also in the

name of the Union Casualty & Life Insurance Co. in the amount of

$1,065.80; is that right?

It is of less importance, if you can't find it.

Mr. Moore. On April 19, 1955, an account was opened in the name

of Union Casualty & Life Insurance Co.

The initial deposit was $129.12. Listing the authorized signature

is Albert G. Baker, Lewis L. El well, it looks like on here, William

Smith, and Paul Hurbert or Hubert.

The Chairman. That account may be made exhibit 48, and the sig-

nature card as 48A.

(The documents referred to were marked "Exhibits Nos. 48 and

48A" for reference and may be found in the files of the select com-

mittee. )

The Chairman. This $125,000 account, is that just an open ac-

count, a checking account, or is it on time deposit?

Mr. Moore. It is an open checking account, sir.

The Chairman. Sir ?

Mr. Moore. An open checking account.

The Chairman. But no checks have ever been drawn on it ?

Mr. Moore. No, sir ; no checks have ever been drawn.

The Chairman. You have had the money now how long — about

3 years or 4 years ?

Mr. Moore. Almost 4 years. I might say that on checking accounts

in the State of Indiana, it is a violation of the law to pay interest on

the deposit.

The Chairman. I don't challenge that. I am not challenging any-

thing at the moment, but it seems to me if I had $125,000 and wasn't

going to use it, I would let it make a little money. That is the way

it occurs to me. Is there anything further ?

Mr. Kennedy. You also have $1 million in the Fidelity Bank &

Trust Co. for the funds of the Central States Conference of Team-

sters ; have you not?

Mr. Moore. There is one in the trust department; yes, sir.

Mr. Kennedy. The trust department ?

Mr. Moore. Yes, sir.

Mr. Kennedy. When was that deposited, approximately? That

was February 1957 ?

Mr. Lewis. Mr. Kennedy, you have that date.

Mr. Kennedy. That is not directlv involved.

Mr. Moore. That is in a different department, sir.

Mr. Kennedy. And not directly involved in what we are interested


Mr. Moore. No, sir.

Mr. Kennedy. I just wanted to make sure we had the full facts.

That is all, Mr. Chairman.

The Chairman. All right. Are there any further questions? If

not, thank you very much.




Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Hoffa.

Mr. Hoffa, why was the $125,000 deposited in this Indianapolis


Mr. Hoffa. The $125,000 was deposited in the Indianapolis bank

so that Local Union 135 would be able to have stability in the com-

munity. It so happens that the employers, knowing that 135 was in

bad financial shape, were taking advantage of the local union, an-

ticipating the fact they could not win a strike or take on an organiz-

ing campaign. I discussed with San Soucie the question of his

organization, and he requested the right to borrow $125,000 from our

union. I decided rather than to borrow the money, to loan the money

to San Soucie, we would deposit $125,000 in the bank, with the in-

tention that if San Soucie needed money to conduct an organizing

campaign or a strike, we would be in a position to draw money from

that Indianapolis bank in necessary amounts to support San Soucie

in any way necessary to win either an organizing campaign or a strike.

Mr. Kennedy. If the money was a loan

Mr. Hoffa. I did not say that it was a loan, Mr. Kennedy. Just a

moment. I said that Mr. San Soucie asked for a loan, and rather than

make a loan, it was in the bank. Now, whether he carried it as a loan

or not in his books, I don't know. And we may have carried it in our

books. But in any event, at no time did the money get out of the pos-

session of local union 299. How it was carried in the books, I can't

tell you offhand. Mr. Bellino has the records.

Mr. Kennedy. How were the employers to know that this money

belonged to Mr. San Soucie's local ?

Mr. Hoffa. I am quite sure that San Soucie announced it publicly

in meetings so that the employers would know about it.

When you announce in meetings, anything that transpires in a

local union, it becomes generally public property in a very short order.

Mr. Kennedy. But the account, as I understand it, was not de-

posited in the name of Mr. San Soucie's local. It was deposited in the

name of local 299.

Mr. Hoffa. But I am quite sure that he announced the fact that

it was there for the protection of local 135 if and when needed.

Mr. Kennedy. But didn't the employers always know that the in-

ternational was going to back them up when funds were needed ?

Mr. Hoffa. This was not the international union.

Mr. Kennedy. All right, the Central States Conference was going

to back them up ? You could say that without having the money in

the bank under the name of local 299.


Mr. Hoffa. I believe this made it a more positive effect, and I be-

lieve it very definitely had an effect on local 135's organizational


Mr. Kennedy. Did you have any interest or did you know Mr.

David Probstein ?

Mr. Hoffa. I have met him, yes.

Mr. Kennedy. Did you have any interest in any of his financial

affairs ?

Mr. Hoffa. No.

Mr. Kennedy. You never did ?

Mr. Hoffa. I loaned him some money.

Mr. Kennedy. How much money did you loan him ?

Mr. Hoffa. We loaned him, and I got this over the phone so I

assume that the dates and amounts are right — Mr. Bellino has the

record, and if it is wrong he can correct it — on May 14, 1954, $8,000

was loaned to the State Cab Co., $7,000 has been paid back, there is

a $1,000 balance, nothing has been paid on the account since the last

2 years, 1957 and 1958. That came out of either Hobren or Test Fleet.

I am not sure what the name of the corporation was at that particular


Mr. Kennedy. That was May 14, 1954 ?

Mr. Hoffa. That is the record I have here, and Mr. Bellino has

the records.

The Chairman. I am not quite clear. Was the loan of $8,000 your

money or the Teamsters' money?

Mr. Hoffa. It was the Hobren Corp. money, sir.

The Chairman. It what ?

Mr. Hoffa. Hobren or Test Fleet, the truck company that my wife

and Mrs. Brennan has money in, had stock in.

The Chairman. I just wanted to clear it up. I didn't quite under-

stand whether the union loaned them the money.

Mr. Hoffa. No, sir, they did not.

Mr. Kennedy. This was a loan of $8,000 from you and Bert Bren-

nan, or from you ?

Mr. Hoffa. It was a loan of $8,000 either from Hobren or Test


Mr. Kennedy. So that we get it straight, isn't Hobren and Test

Fleet owned by you ?

Mr. Hoffa. Hobren and Test Fleet is my wife and Brennan's com-

pany where they have the stock in it.

Mr. Kennedy. In order to get answers to questions about their fi-

nances, do you want us to have your wife and Mr. Brennan's wife

down here to answer the questions ?

Mr. Hoffa. Now, Mr.— —

Mr. Kennedy. Wait a minute. You keep putting this on your wife

and Mr. Brennan's wife.

Mr. Hoffa. Look, I don't put nothing on my wife, and I want it

very clearly understood that my wife knows nothing of the operation

of this company whatsoever.

Mr. Kennedy. All right, let's get down to it. Did you make the

loan, you and Mr. Brennan make the loan, through the Hobren Corp. ?

Mr. Hoffa. You didn't ask that question. The answer to that

question is that I recommended the loan and so did Brennan.


Mr. Kennedy. To whom did you recommend the loan ?

Mr. Hoffa. Recommended it to our wives and it was made through

the company.

Mr. Kennedy. That was $4,000 from each one of you; is that cor-


Mr. Hoffa. It would be $8,000 from the company, and necessarily,

since they are equal partners, it would be $4,000 apiece.

Mr. Kennedy. Why did you make that loan to Mr. Probstein \

Mr. Hoffa. Because he requested it.

Mr. Kennedy. How long had you known Mr. Probstein?

Mr. Hoffa. San Soucie recommended the loan, not Probstein, be-

cause I didn't know Probstein hardly at all.

Mr. Kennnedy. Tell us about your conversation with Mr. San


Mr. Hoffa. He wauled to know whether or not we would loan the

State Cab Co. that much money if he was the guaranty as to the

repayment. That is all it amounted to.

A I v. K i . n n i:dy. Did you talk to Probstein about it ?

Mr. Hoffa. Yes. 1 believe Probstein came to Detroit once or twice.

I am not sure.

(At tli is point, Senator McClellan withdrew from the hearing

room. )

M r. Ke x n edy. Did you meet with him about this situation ?

Mr. Hoffa. Yes.

Mr. Kennedy. Would you tell us what he was going to do with the

money ?

Mr. Hoffa. Here is what he was going to do. The State Cab Co.

Mr. Kennedy. From the State Cab Co. ?

Mr. Hoffa. That was my understanding ; yes.

Mr. Kennedy. Did you have anything to do with the insurance

company ?

Mr. Hoffa. What insurance company ?

Mr. Kennedy. He was also engaged or involved in an insurance

company in Indianapolis. Did you have anything to do with that?

Mr. Hoffa. I understand that was Union Casualty Insurance Co.

Mr. Kennedy. Yes. Did you have anything to do with it ?

Mr. Hoffa. I personally had nothing to do with the insurance com-

pany. I am no stockholder in it personally.

Mr. Kennedy. Did you or your wife or Bert Brennan's wife have

anything to do with financing or setting up that insurance company ?

Mr. Hoffa. I had nothing to do with setting it up.

Mr. Kennedy. Did you have anything to do with financing it ?

Mr. Hoffa. I did not.

Mr. Kennedy. Did you, your wife, Bert Brennan, or his wife or

Hobren Corp. or Test Fleet Corp. have any other financial dealings

with Mr. Probstein ?

Mr. Hoffa. This is my extent of the financing of Probstein.

Mr. Kennedy. Did you have any other financial dealings with Mr.

San Soucie, then, on behalf of Mr. Probstein ?

Mr. Hoffa. On this loan? No.

Mr. Kennedy. Well, any other financial dealings with Gene San


(At this point Senator Ervin entered the hearing room.)


Mr. Williams. Is this at any time, Mr. Kennedy ?

Mr. Kennedy. Since January 1, 1953.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. Hoffa. The answer is "No." I don't recall having any busi-

ness, and I am sure I did not, with San Soucie.

Mr. Kennedy. You never advanced him any money? The only

financial operation that he knew anything about, then, was the $8,000 ?

Mr. Hoffa. I don't know what he knew. That is what we loaned


Mr. Kennedy. Well, you said it was through his effort s.

Mr. Hoffa. I said I don't know what he knew about State Cab Co.

I am saying that $8,000 is what we loaned.

Mr. Kennedy. And it was on his recommendation, as I understood


Mr. Hoffa. Yes, you are right.

Mr. Kennedy. And you or any of these companies that you own or

operate never had any other financial operations or dealings with Mr.

Probstein, is that correct, other than the $8,000 ?

Mr. Hoffa. I did not.

Mr. Kennedy. Excuse me ?

Mr. Hoffa. I did not.

Mr. Kennedy. Well, did Hobren

Mr. PIoffa. No ; the records reflect nothing.

Mr. Kennedy. Well, do you know of any other financial dealings ?

You say the records reflect nothing. Do you know of any other finan-

cial dealings

Mr. Hoffa. No.

Mr. Kennedy. Would you wait until I finish ?

Mr. Hoffa. You asked me a question and I answered it.

Mr. Kennedy. Did you, Mr. Hoffa, have any other financial deal-

ings with Mr. Probstein, other than the $8,000?

Mr. Hoffa. I had no dealings with Probstein. This money was

loaned to Probstein at the suggestion of San Soucie, so actually I had

no business with Probstein.

Mr. Kennedy. I thought you loaned Mr. Probstein $8,000.

Mr. Hoffa. I just got through saying we did. But I say I actually

had nothing to do with Probstein, because if it would have been Prob-

stein alone, he never Avould have received a loan from us, but only on

the recommendation of San Soucie and with the assurance that he

would see that it was paid back if they did not pay it back.

Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Hoffa, I understand that.

Mr. Hoffa. Then you have the answer, then.

Mr. Kennedy. No ; all I am asking, and I think we can move along

very quickly, all I am asking you is whether you had any other finan-

cial dealings with Mr. Probstein? Other than the $8,000 that you


Mr. Hoffa. I told you "no," not, to my recollection. I don't know

what you mean, business. I was in no business at any time with


Mr. Kennedy. Just any financial transactions with him.

Mr. Hoffa. I was not in any business with Probstein, and the only

thing I had to do with Probstein was this loan that I have discussed

with you.

Mr. Kennedy. All right. Did your wife have any other financial

transactions with Mr. Probstein ?

Mr. Hoffa. No. I don't even think she knew him, I know she


Mr. Kennedy. Do you know if Mr. Brennan had any financial

transactions with Mr. Probstein ?

Mr. Hoffa. I wouldn't believe he did. But unless he told me, and

he never told me he did

Mr. Kennedy. You don't know of any ?

Mr. Hoffa. No.

(At this point, Senator McClellan entered the hearing room.)

Mr. Kennedy. And you don't know of any that Mr. Brennan's wife

had with Mr. Probstein ?

Mr. Hoffa. I don't believe they had any. I think this was all we

were involved in.

Mr. Kennedy. And that is to do with Mr. Probstein or any com-

pany in which he had an interest, like the State Cab Co., or any of

these other companies, is that right ?

Mr. Hoffa. It had nothing to do with the insurance, and I loaned

him no money to the cab company, other than this $8,000 that I

know of, reflected from our records.

Mr. Kennedy. "What do you mean reflected from your records?

Is there anything that is not in your records ?

Mr. Hoffa. There wouldn't be. But I didn't get this information

myself, and I am sure the accountant was the one that called it into

Washington in regards to this loan.

Mr. Kennedy. But you know of no other financial transactions that

you had with Mr. Probstein ?

Mr. Hoffa. I don't know of any of them.

Mr. Kennedy. Other than the $8,000 ?

Mr. Hoffa. That is right.

Mr. Kennedy. How did you get the $8,000 repaid ?

Mr. Hoffa. Well, he must have paid it to Hobren.

Mr. Kennedy. Did he repay it ?

Mr. Hoffa. I say they must have paid it to Hobren. I don't know

what the books reflect. It reflects the payments. I don't know that.

Mr. Kennedy. So you don't know how it

Mr. Hoffa. You have the books, the records. If you will look, I

think it must reflect how it was paid.

Mr. Kennedy. You don't have any independent recollection?

Mr. Hoffa. No, I don't have an independent recollection.

Mr. Kennedy. Did you talk to Mr. San Soucie about the $8,000 ?

Mr. Hoffa. At the time of the loan, yes.

Mr. Kennedy. When it was being repaid, did you talk to him about

it then ?

Mr. Hoffa. Well, I don't think there was any need for it. I think

the auditor would have handled it, if it was not paying.

Mr. Kennedy. But you never discussed it with Mr. San Soucie?

Mr. Hoffa. I don't know whether I did or not. If they were de-

linquent and the auditor would have told me, I would have called them.

I don't know whether I did or not. The record would have to reflect

whether they paid promptly or not. I couldn't answer that.

Mr. Kennedy. You never had anything to do with the operation of

the cab company ?

Mr. Hoffa. I did not.

Mr. Kennedy. Did you ever give any instructions to Mr. San

Soucie about the operations of the cab company ?

Mr. Hoffa. I did not.

Mr. Kennedy. Did you tell anyone to give instructions to Mr. San

Soucie about the operations of the cab company ?

Mr. Hoffa. Did I?

Mr. Kennedy. Yes.

Mr. Hoffa. Well, now, we may have discussed the question con-

cerning the cab company starting up, because all the cab companies

in Indianapolis were nonunion, and if this cab company would have

started up it would have been union and the opening of a union opera-

tion. He may have discussed that with me. I don't recall.

Mr. Kennedy. But you had just a general conversation about it?

Is that what you had with him ?

Mr. Hoffa. I would think you could call it general, yes.

Mr. Kennedy. What about Mr. Zapas ?

Mr. Hoffa. I never discussed it with him.

Mr. Kennedy. Do you know if he had anything to do with the op-

eration of the cab company ?

Mr. Hoffa. No, I don't.

Mr. Kennedy. Do you know if Mr. San Soucie had anything to do

with the operation ?

Mr. Hoffa. I don't know if he did physically or not.

(At this point, Senator Curtis withdrew from the hearing room.)

The Chairman. Are there any other questions ?

Mr. Kennedy. That is all.

The Chairman. All right. Thank you.

Call the next witness. ...

Edited by Tom Scully
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Guest Tom Scully

High standards at The Washington Post

By Glenn Greenwald

By publishing a book that clearly and unapologetically defends the Bush torture regime, Marc Thiessen catapulted himself from obscure, low-level Bush speechwriter into regular Washington Post columnist, joining fellow torture defenders Charles Krauthammer and Bill Kristol. Today, Thiessen's column defends the Liz-Cheney/Kristol smear campaign against DOJ lawyers and says this:

Yet Attorney General Eric Holder hired former al-Qaeda lawyers to serve in the Justice Department and resisted providing Congress this basic information. . . . Some defenders say al-Qaeda lawyers are simply following a great American tradition, in which everyone gets a lawyer and their day in court. Not so, says Andy McCarthy . . . . The habeas lawyers were not doing their constitutional duty to defend unpopular criminal defendants. They were using the federal courts as a tool to undermine our military's ability to keep dangerous enemy combatants off the battlefield in a time of war.

So any lawyer who represents accused Terrorists and argues that the Government is violating constitutional limitations in its Terrorism policies is -- all together now -- an "al Qaeda lawyer" (even if those detainees were innocent, as most were). ...

So, why can't we use the twisted logic of this crazy, former Bush admin. speech writer, especially since the Washington Post is providing a forum for its distribution, and apply the exact same standard to what Tom Clark and Earl Warren seem to have done....sponsored "attorney for the mafia", Albert E. Jenner, Jr., who Drew Pearson told us Tom Clark knew, since 1946, was an attorney for alleged Chicago mafia kingpin, Henry Crown?


Edited by Tom Scully
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