Ballistics

[Mike Williams]

Mr.Hynonen,

Pleasure to see you again Sir.

FMJ rounds by design do not fragment in tissue. This was mandated by the Geneva Convention. It was considered inhumane in a time of war. (Go figure). The 6.5mm MC round is a well known (and well liked in Europe), for its exceptional stability. They have a sectional density and ballistic coefficient that makes them deep penetrating, and very stable. Having said that I am of course surprised that this projectile would fragment inside the head. This is contrary to all that we know about the Carcano round. While it is not surprising that the projectile shed fragments from its open end, one would seriously have to consider that the projectile hit something very hard upon exit, and this is what caused it to shatter. Now in the case of the CE399 bullet, I have other issued, namely its lack of deformity. I would certainly not have expected it to fragment on its way through both men (alleged), however, I would certainly expect to see some deformity of the projectile.

The one true anomaly I see is the lack of deformity of the CE399 projectile. I firmly believe that the projectile exiting the head, struck the window chrome and shattered.

I hope this helped and answered your questions to your satisfaction.

Best to you Sir,

Mike

Mike, Dr. Baden of the HSCA medical panel shared your opinion that the bullet must have shattered upon hitting the windshield strut, as it would be unlikely to shatter in skull. This was due in part to the large fractures at the supposed exit, which would be unlikely should the bullet really have exited in pieces. The problem with this is that this doesn't fit the other evidence. There were two bullet fragments found in the front section of the car, and two impacts--one on the windshield strut, and one on the windshield itself, noted. One of these fragments was the nose of the bullet, the other was the base. Roughly half the bullet was missing...from the middle. This suggests the recovered fragments exited separately. In addition, a cross-section of this missing middle--or slice--is supposedly visible on the x-rays between the tables of the skull on the far back of the head. This, then, would suggest the bullet broke up upon impact with the back of the head.

Or do you think, as Baden, it makes sense for a 6.5 mm slice to rub off the back of a bullet upon impact with a human skull?

Mr. Speer,

I would think that Baden might just be onto something here. I have always held that it is possible for fragments to be left in the head from the rear of the bullet. It would not seem that the wounds are consistent with a projectile fragmenting in the head. This would he highly unlikely with this type of round. I have also further thought that this projectile shattered impacting the chrome. I believe it is very possible that once shattering the crack in the glass was caused by a fragment of that. The inside of the glass had lead, not copper, as I recall. I believe it is very possible that a fragment came off that projectile once it impacted the chrome and cracked the glass.

Hop you are having a great day!

Mike

Mike, you're forgetting about Tague. If the bugger didn't miss then Tague must have been wounded by the missing middle of the bullet impacting on the skull. If the bullet exited in pieces it would seem possible one of the pieces would sail over the windshield and down toward Tague. If the bullet exited intact and only broke up on the windshield strut, this possibility seems more an impossibility.

Mr. Speer,

Oh I have not forgotten good ole JT. But to answer your question, I fully believe that projectile exited intact and struck the chrome. The certainly could have sent a fragment that scratched Tague.

[Martin Hinrichs]

Mr.Hynonen,

Pleasure to see you again Sir.

FMJ rounds by design do not fragment in tissue. This was mandated by the Geneva Convention. It was considered inhumane in a time of war. (Go figure). The 6.5mm MC round is a well known (and well liked in Europe), for its exceptional stability. They have a sectional density and ballistic coefficient that makes them deep penetrating, and very stable. Having said that I am of course surprised that this projectile would fragment inside the head. This is contrary to all that we know about the Carcano round. While it is not surprising that the projectile shed fragments from its open end, one would seriously have to consider that the projectile hit something very hard upon exit, and this is what caused it to shatter. Now in the case of the CE399 bullet, I have other issued, namely its lack of deformity. I would certainly not have expected it to fragment on its way through both men (alleged), however, I would certainly expect to see some deformity of the projectile.

The one true anomaly I see is the lack of deformity of the CE399 projectile. I firmly believe that the projectile exiting the head, struck the window chrome and shattered.

I hope this helped and answered your questions to your satisfaction.

Best to you Sir,

Mike

Mike, Dr. Baden of the HSCA medical panel shared your opinion that the bullet must have shattered upon hitting the windshield strut, as it would be unlikely to shatter in skull. This was due in part to the large fractures at the supposed exit, which would be unlikely should the bullet really have exited in pieces. The problem with this is that this doesn't fit the other evidence. There were two bullet fragments found in the front section of the car, and two impacts--one on the windshield strut, and one on the windshield itself, noted. One of these fragments was the nose of the bullet, the other was the base. Roughly half the bullet was missing...from the middle. This suggests the recovered fragments exited separately. In addition, a cross-section of this missing middle--or slice--is supposedly visible on the x-rays between the tables of the skull on the far back of the head. This, then, would suggest the bullet broke up upon impact with the back of the head.

Or do you think, as Baden, it makes sense for a 6.5 mm slice to rub off the back of a bullet upon impact with a human skull?

Mr. Speer,

I would think that Baden might just be onto something here. I have always held that it is possible for fragments to be left in the head from the rear of the bullet. It would not seem that the wounds are consistent with a projectile fragmenting in the head. This would he highly unlikely with this type of round. I have also further thought that this projectile shattered impacting the chrome. I believe it is very possible that once shattering the crack in the glass was caused by a fragment of that. The inside of the glass had lead, not copper, as I recall. I believe it is very possible that a fragment came off that projectile once it impacted the chrome and cracked the glass.

Hop you are having a great day!

Mike

Mike, you're forgetting about Tague. If the bugger didn't miss then Tague must have been wounded by the missing middle of the bullet impacting on the skull. If the bullet exited in pieces it would seem possible one of the pieces would sail over the windshield and down toward Tague. If the bullet exited intact and only broke up on the windshield strut, this possibility seems more an impossibility.

Mr. Speer,

Oh I have not forgotten good ole JT. But to answer your question, I fully believe that projectile exited intact and struck the chrome. The certainly could have sent a fragment that scratched Tague.

Mike and Pat, no bullet fragment or projectile from the fatal head shot could you have gotten to Tague, except through the windshield (which is doubtful).

There is no straight trajectory for that scenario.

A bone piece flying a curve over the windshield? Mhhh, over how many yards have this solid piece have to fly against the wind to cause this injure of Tague's cheek?

Some 90 yards so far. And what about the damaged curbstone on Main? This tiny damage atop of the curb which is certainly not caused by a car wheel.

The only logical explanation to me is: A shot missed the SS-100-X and the first impacted surface was the curb south of Main, deflecting to James Tague.

best to you

Martin

[Mike Williams]

Mr.Hynonen,

Pleasure to see you again Sir.

FMJ rounds by design do not fragment in tissue. This was mandated by the Geneva Convention. It was considered inhumane in a time of war. (Go figure). The 6.5mm MC round is a well known (and well liked in Europe), for its exceptional stability. They have a sectional density and ballistic coefficient that makes them deep penetrating, and very stable. Having said that I am of course surprised that this projectile would fragment inside the head. This is contrary to all that we know about the Carcano round. While it is not surprising that the projectile shed fragments from its open end, one would seriously have to consider that the projectile hit something very hard upon exit, and this is what caused it to shatter. Now in the case of the CE399 bullet, I have other issued, namely its lack of deformity. I would certainly not have expected it to fragment on its way through both men (alleged), however, I would certainly expect to see some deformity of the projectile.

The one true anomaly I see is the lack of deformity of the CE399 projectile. I firmly believe that the projectile exiting the head, struck the window chrome and shattered.

I hope this helped and answered your questions to your satisfaction.

Best to you Sir,

Mike

Mike, Dr. Baden of the HSCA medical panel shared your opinion that the bullet must have shattered upon hitting the windshield strut, as it would be unlikely to shatter in skull. This was due in part to the large fractures at the supposed exit, which would be unlikely should the bullet really have exited in pieces. The problem with this is that this doesn't fit the other evidence. There were two bullet fragments found in the front section of the car, and two impacts--one on the windshield strut, and one on the windshield itself, noted. One of these fragments was the nose of the bullet, the other was the base. Roughly half the bullet was missing...from the middle. This suggests the recovered fragments exited separately. In addition, a cross-section of this missing middle--or slice--is supposedly visible on the x-rays between the tables of the skull on the far back of the head. This, then, would suggest the bullet broke up upon impact with the back of the head.

Or do you think, as Baden, it makes sense for a 6.5 mm slice to rub off the back of a bullet upon impact with a human skull?

Mr. Speer,

I would think that Baden might just be onto something here. I have always held that it is possible for fragments to be left in the head from the rear of the bullet. It would not seem that the wounds are consistent with a projectile fragmenting in the head. This would he highly unlikely with this type of round. I have also further thought that this projectile shattered impacting the chrome. I believe it is very possible that once shattering the crack in the glass was caused by a fragment of that. The inside of the glass had lead, not copper, as I recall. I believe it is very possible that a fragment came off that projectile once it impacted the chrome and cracked the glass.

Hop you are having a great day!

Mike

Mike, you're forgetting about Tague. If the bugger didn't miss then Tague must have been wounded by the missing middle of the bullet impacting on the skull. If the bullet exited in pieces it would seem possible one of the pieces would sail over the windshield and down toward Tague. If the bullet exited intact and only broke up on the windshield strut, this possibility seems more an impossibility.

Mr. Speer,

Oh I have not forgotten good ole JT. But to answer your question, I fully believe that projectile exited intact and struck the chrome. The certainly could have sent a fragment that scratched Tague.

Mike and Pat, no bullet fragment or projectile from the fatal head shot could you have gotten to Tague, except through the windshield (which is doubtful).

There is no straight trajectory for that scenario.

A bone piece flying a curve over the windshield? Mhhh, over how many yards have this solid piece have to fly against the wind to cause this injure of Tague's cheek?

Some 90 yards so far. And what about the damaged curbstone on Main? This tiny damage atop of the curb which is certainly not caused by a car wheel.

The only logical explanation to me is: A shot missed the SS-100-X and the first impacted surface was the curb south of Main, deflecting to James Tague.

best to you

Martin

Martin,

I disagree. A projectile fragment could well have traveled to Tague. Given that we do not know what the projectile did once it hit the chrome, we could not possibly rule this out.

Mike

[Pat Speer]

Mr.Hynonen,

Pleasure to see you again Sir.

FMJ rounds by design do not fragment in tissue. This was mandated by the Geneva Convention. It was considered inhumane in a time of war. (Go figure). The 6.5mm MC round is a well known (and well liked in Europe), for its exceptional stability. They have a sectional density and ballistic coefficient that makes them deep penetrating, and very stable. Having said that I am of course surprised that this projectile would fragment inside the head. This is contrary to all that we know about the Carcano round. While it is not surprising that the projectile shed fragments from its open end, one would seriously have to consider that the projectile hit something very hard upon exit, and this is what caused it to shatter. Now in the case of the CE399 bullet, I have other issued, namely its lack of deformity. I would certainly not have expected it to fragment on its way through both men (alleged), however, I would certainly expect to see some deformity of the projectile.

The one true anomaly I see is the lack of deformity of the CE399 projectile. I firmly believe that the projectile exiting the head, struck the window chrome and shattered.

I hope this helped and answered your questions to your satisfaction.

Best to you Sir,

Mike

Mike, Dr. Baden of the HSCA medical panel shared your opinion that the bullet must have shattered upon hitting the windshield strut, as it would be unlikely to shatter in skull. This was due in part to the large fractures at the supposed exit, which would be unlikely should the bullet really have exited in pieces. The problem with this is that this doesn't fit the other evidence. There were two bullet fragments found in the front section of the car, and two impacts--one on the windshield strut, and one on the windshield itself, noted. One of these fragments was the nose of the bullet, the other was the base. Roughly half the bullet was missing...from the middle. This suggests the recovered fragments exited separately. In addition, a cross-section of this missing middle--or slice--is supposedly visible on the x-rays between the tables of the skull on the far back of the head. This, then, would suggest the bullet broke up upon impact with the back of the head.

Or do you think, as Baden, it makes sense for a 6.5 mm slice to rub off the back of a bullet upon impact with a human skull?

Mr. Speer,

I would think that Baden might just be onto something here. I have always held that it is possible for fragments to be left in the head from the rear of the bullet. It would not seem that the wounds are consistent with a projectile fragmenting in the head. This would he highly unlikely with this type of round. I have also further thought that this projectile shattered impacting the chrome. I believe it is very possible that once shattering the crack in the glass was caused by a fragment of that. The inside of the glass had lead, not copper, as I recall. I believe it is very possible that a fragment came off that projectile once it impacted the chrome and cracked the glass.

Hop you are having a great day!

Mike

Mike, you're forgetting about Tague. If the bugger didn't miss then Tague must have been wounded by the missing middle of the bullet impacting on the skull. If the bullet exited in pieces it would seem possible one of the pieces would sail over the windshield and down toward Tague. If the bullet exited intact and only broke up on the windshield strut, this possibility seems more an impossibility.

Mr. Speer,

Oh I have not forgotten good ole JT. But to answer your question, I fully believe that projectile exited intact and struck the chrome. The certainly could have sent a fragment that scratched Tague.

Mike and Pat, no bullet fragment or projectile from the fatal head shot could you have gotten to Tague, except through the windshield (which is doubtful).

There is no straight trajectory for that scenario.

A bone piece flying a curve over the windshield? Mhhh, over how many yards have this solid piece have to fly against the wind to cause this injure of Tague's cheek?

Some 90 yards so far. And what about the damaged curbstone on Main? This tiny damage atop of the curb which is certainly not caused by a car wheel.

The only logical explanation to me is: A shot missed the SS-100-X and the first impacted surface was the curb south of Main, deflecting to James Tague.

best to you

Martin

Martin, a bullet fragment deflecting off the top right side of Kennedy's head at frame 313 could pass over the windshield and be on an almost straight course to Tague's position. A fairly large section of the bullet--larger than an M-16 bullet--is missing. If that fragment deflected off largely intact it would have the mass and speed to chip the curb.

If the bullet actually passed through the head, and broke up upon impact with the windshield strut, however, I would agree that it's doubtful that a piece of the bullet could somehow curve through the air over the top of the windshield and chip the concrete by Tague. It's doubtful, IMO, that an M/C would even shatter upon impact with a chrome strip. No one has ever tested this, as far as I know.

[Mike Williams]

Mr.Hynonen,

Pleasure to see you again Sir.

FMJ rounds by design do not fragment in tissue. This was mandated by the Geneva Convention. It was considered inhumane in a time of war. (Go figure). The 6.5mm MC round is a well known (and well liked in Europe), for its exceptional stability. They have a sectional density and ballistic coefficient that makes them deep penetrating, and very stable. Having said that I am of course surprised that this projectile would fragment inside the head. This is contrary to all that we know about the Carcano round. While it is not surprising that the projectile shed fragments from its open end, one would seriously have to consider that the projectile hit something very hard upon exit, and this is what caused it to shatter. Now in the case of the CE399 bullet, I have other issued, namely its lack of deformity. I would certainly not have expected it to fragment on its way through both men (alleged), however, I would certainly expect to see some deformity of the projectile.

The one true anomaly I see is the lack of deformity of the CE399 projectile. I firmly believe that the projectile exiting the head, struck the window chrome and shattered.

I hope this helped and answered your questions to your satisfaction.

Best to you Sir,

Mike

Mike, Dr. Baden of the HSCA medical panel shared your opinion that the bullet must have shattered upon hitting the windshield strut, as it would be unlikely to shatter in skull. This was due in part to the large fractures at the supposed exit, which would be unlikely should the bullet really have exited in pieces. The problem with this is that this doesn't fit the other evidence. There were two bullet fragments found in the front section of the car, and two impacts--one on the windshield strut, and one on the windshield itself, noted. One of these fragments was the nose of the bullet, the other was the base. Roughly half the bullet was missing...from the middle. This suggests the recovered fragments exited separately. In addition, a cross-section of this missing middle--or slice--is supposedly visible on the x-rays between the tables of the skull on the far back of the head. This, then, would suggest the bullet broke up upon impact with the back of the head.

Or do you think, as Baden, it makes sense for a 6.5 mm slice to rub off the back of a bullet upon impact with a human skull?

Mr. Speer,

I would think that Baden might just be onto something here. I have always held that it is possible for fragments to be left in the head from the rear of the bullet. It would not seem that the wounds are consistent with a projectile fragmenting in the head. This would he highly unlikely with this type of round. I have also further thought that this projectile shattered impacting the chrome. I believe it is very possible that once shattering the crack in the glass was caused by a fragment of that. The inside of the glass had lead, not copper, as I recall. I believe it is very possible that a fragment came off that projectile once it impacted the chrome and cracked the glass.

Hop you are having a great day!

Mike

Mike, you're forgetting about Tague. If the bugger didn't miss then Tague must have been wounded by the missing middle of the bullet impacting on the skull. If the bullet exited in pieces it would seem possible one of the pieces would sail over the windshield and down toward Tague. If the bullet exited intact and only broke up on the windshield strut, this possibility seems more an impossibility.

Mr. Speer,

Oh I have not forgotten good ole JT. But to answer your question, I fully believe that projectile exited intact and struck the chrome. The certainly could have sent a fragment that scratched Tague.

Mike and Pat, no bullet fragment or projectile from the fatal head shot could you have gotten to Tague, except through the windshield (which is doubtful).

There is no straight trajectory for that scenario.

A bone piece flying a curve over the windshield? Mhhh, over how many yards have this solid piece have to fly against the wind to cause this injure of Tague's cheek?

Some 90 yards so far. And what about the damaged curbstone on Main? This tiny damage atop of the curb which is certainly not caused by a car wheel.

The only logical explanation to me is: A shot missed the SS-100-X and the first impacted surface was the curb south of Main, deflecting to James Tague.

best to you

Martin

Martin, a bullet fragment deflecting off the top right side of Kennedy's head at frame 313 could pass over the windshield and be on an almost straight course to Tague's position. A fairly large section of the bullet--larger than an M-16 bullet--is missing. If that fragment deflected off largely intact it would have the mass and speed to chip the curb.

If the bullet actually passed through the head, and broke up upon impact with the windshield strut, however, I would agree that it's doubtful that a piece of the bullet could somehow curve through the air over the top of the windshield and chip the concrete by Tague. It's doubtful, IMO, that an M/C would even shatter upon impact with a chrome strip. No one has ever tested this, as far as I know.

Pat,

It is far more unlikely for the projectile to break up inside the head. I would suggest a look at the chrome strip that has a nice circular indentation, roughly the size of a 6.5mm impact. I would suggest that if the tail and nose are in the car, that the bullet shattered on the chrome. Once this happens there is no way to predict the flight paths of those fragments. It would depend largely on the size of the fragment, the spin of the fragment, and certainly and most importantly the shape of the fragment. Nothing can be ruled out here, just because of its sure unpredictability.

Hope your having a great night,

Mike

[Don Jeffries]

Mike,

You appear to bascially be a lone nutter now. I don't believe you presented yourself as such a few years ago. That exact same kind of change seems to be epidemic in the research community.

Harold Weisberg covered the missed shot that nicked Tague extensively in "Whitewash II." You should read his irrefutable research- it's essential to understanding this case.

As Jim notes, these are the same tired arguments we've heard ad nauseum. Shots were easy, gun was fine, Oswald was a good shot, "no evidence" that shots were fired from anywhere else, etc. Dr. Perry's belated claims that the throat wound was one of exit are belied by his initial description, which was unequivocally that it was an entrance wound. Anyone in the legal system will tell you that initial testimony is the most valuable.

EVERY piece of "evidence" cited against Oswald is tainted beyond repair. In fact, none of it could have been entered into the record at trial because of the laughable chain-of-possession issues that plague the crime scene (limo), mannlicher carcano, all ammunition, etc. To cite just one example; if I'd been Oswald's defense attorney, my first act would have been to introduce into the record the sworn affidavits of officers Boone and Weitzman, who both identified the rifle found on the sixth floor as a German mauser. Since the prosecution could not have even introduced the carcano into the record, because the only legal record of the search identified the alleged murder weapon as something else entirely, I would have then asked for all charges to be dismissed. Legally speaking, the state had no case against Oswald.

[Mike Williams]

You appear to bascially be a lone nutter now. I don't believe you presented yourself as such a few years ago. That exact same kind of change seems to be epidemic in the research community.

Oh I dont know about that. I have changed positions on some issues, but this is just because I have had significant more time to evaluate and determine some things. I do not think that is such a bad thing.

Harold Weisberg covered the missed shot that nicked Tague extensively in "Whitewash II." You should read his irrefutable research- it's essential to understanding this case.

While I have not read this writing, I would love to. The one thing I can tell you is when dealing with as many variables as a ricochet, or round coming apart, there can be no "irrefutable" research. No disrespect to Mr, Weisberg intended. If this book available on the internet?

As Jim notes, these are the same tired arguments we've heard ad nauseum. Shots were easy, gun was fine, Oswald was a good shot, "no evidence" that shots were fired from anywhere else, etc. Dr. Perry's belated claims that the throat wound was one of exit are belied by his initial description, which was unequivocally that it was an entrance wound. Anyone in the legal system will tell you that initial testimony is the most valuable.

I beg to differ, informed testimony is the most valuable. Perry had no idea at that time of the full circumstances. I do believe it is fully possible for the 6mm to leave an exit of this type(that is not to say that in this case I believe it DID).

I would suggest that the reason some maybe tired of these same old arguments is because they have no defense for them. The shots were easy, I have 24 years experience not just shooting but training others to do so as well. There are many things I do not know, this is not one of those lol. Oswald would have been a more than fair shot in comparison to the average civilian. Lat but not least, there is no indication whatsoever of a shot from anywhere but the 6th floor. The back and to the left foolishness only reveals those who do and do not remember basic physics, nothing more.

Anyhow I hope you are having a super night.

Mike

[Jerry Logan]

..... if I'd been Oswald's defense attorney, my first act would have been to introduce into the record the sworn affidavits of officers Boone and Weitzman, who both identified the rifle found on the sixth floor as a German mauser. Since the prosecution could not have even introduced the carcano into the record, because the only legal record of the search identified the alleged murder weapon as something else entirely, I would have then asked for all charges to be dismissed. Legally speaking, the state had no case against Oswald.

Don,

You should run this by Doug Weldon and see how a former prosecutor reacts.

I'm sure Doug wouldn't have had any trouble getting the rifle into evidence in 1964 Texas.

Jerry

[Mike Williams]

..... if I'd been Oswald's defense attorney, my first act would have been to introduce into the record the sworn affidavits of officers Boone and Weitzman, who both identified the rifle found on the sixth floor as a German mauser. Since the prosecution could not have even introduced the carcano into the record, because the only legal record of the search identified the alleged murder weapon as something else entirely, I would have then asked for all charges to be dismissed. Legally speaking, the state had no case against Oswald.

Don,

You should run this by Doug Weldon and see how a former prosecutor reacts.

I'm sure Doug wouldn't have had any trouble getting the rifle into evidence in 1964 Texas.

Jerry

Mr. Logan,

Nice to see you again.

I agree. Prints, Fibers, Paper Trail....what more could you want than a picture of the assassin holding the rifle?

Best Sir,

Mike

[Glenn Viklund]

Jim,

"JFK was hit in the throat and in the right temple by shots that were fired from in front." These are not irrefutable facts of this matter. I'm sure you would like them to be, but they're not. They never were.

I appreciate Mr Williams approach to ballistics in this thread, as he's basically trying to make his own calls on a number of subjects others may consider set in stone. In my opinion, such an approach is what is needed in many areas of the JFK case.

[Antti Hynonen]

Thank you for your reply.

Good to see that we are on the same page on FMJ rounds and fragmenting.

I'll skip over the "magic bullet" the very slightly deformed one found for now.

However, considering your reply on FMJ's and fragmenting, do you not find it rather bizarre, that there were bullet fragments in both Kennedy's brain as well as Connally's wrist?

As far as I can discern, these were two seprate bullets, and therefore two unusual FMJ rounds pertaining to this case.

I just can't get over how an FMJ round (let alone two) would leave all that led and metal behind, having only struck human tissue?

Just raises a big red flag in my mind.

Any further education on this would be appreciated.

Antti

Hi,

You seem to be experienced with rifles, bullets and shooting. Thanks for your replies.

What is your opinion of a fragmenting FMJ round? From what I understand, and have looked into this, it seems like FMJ rounds do not fragment upon impact. Over the internet I took part in a discussion on rifles, Carcanos more particularly. Most who replied on the forum denied there was anything fishy about Oswald and the Kennedy assassination, nor the assumed weapon&ballsitics as reported by the WC.

However, a few members replied to me via private messages, they didn't seem to want to get into the discussion publicly.

Those who replied privately had actually hunted with Carcano's, some had used FMJ rounds for hunting. Those who replied to me indicated that in their expericence FMJ rounds always went right through the deer. They had never experienced a fragmenting FMJ round, nor any wounds that had only partially penetrated the deer.

Here's one set of opinions found on the net:

http://karws.gso.uri.edu/jfk/the_critics/g...ead_wounds.html

Any thoughts regarding this are appreciated. Thanks.

Regards,

Antti

Mr. Kelly,

Just a note to say thank you for this information. This has proved to be some of the most interesting reading I have found here in quite sometime.

Again, thank you Sir.

Mike

Hey Mike,

I'm glad someone is finding all this as interesting as I do.

And thanks for being a vet.

I have a few questions for you, with your background.

Having reviewed the case now, can you tell me in your opinion:

1) Did the Sixth floor sniper use the Manlicher Carcano or another rifle?

2) If the MC was used, did the shooter use the scope or not?

3) If the MC was used, did the shooter use the strap for support and accuracy?

4) As seen in the Zapruder film, does the head shot originate from the front or the rear?

Thank you,

BK

Mr. Kelly,

No thanks needed Sir.

To answer a your questions:

1) I believe the 6th floor shooter used the MC rifle. The wounds would seem to be consistent with the this type of rifle, but more importantly the impact angles seem to indicate strongly that the shots were fired from that window.

2) To be quite frank here, I do not know. I have an MC with a cantilever mount, and in my opinion it could be used either way. However with the longest shot being a mere 100 yards, a scope would not be needed at all.

3) Again there really is no way to know. I would think as the shots were not at any great range that "saddling" or "snapping in" would not be needed.

4) The head shot without fail comes from the rear. For one, projectiles that perforate do not transfer the kind of energy it requires to "slam" a human body back like we see in the famous "back and to the left". A more honest representation is the sight forward head movement we initially see. It is relatively simple to calculate, but generally the impact of a transiting projectile is no more than .1%-.3% of the energy the projectile has at time of impact.

Another indication of a rear shot is that upon entry the wound will emit back spatter. This is generally large drops of blood traveling at moderate speed, Upon exit things change. We then see forward spatter, which is a very dense cloud of almost mist like droplets in very high speed.

To offer an example take a straw and fill 2 inches of it with ketchup. Then simply blow out the ketchup. That is back spatter.

Next fill a spray bottle with water and red food color, set it to mist rather than stream, and spray it a few times. The dense cloud of mist hangs in the air and is compromised of small droplets. This is forward spatter.

I think this is exactly what we see in the Z film.

I hope that I have at least given my opinion satisfactorily to your questions. If not, I am at your service.

Best to you Sir,

Mike

Mr.Hynonen,

Pleasure to see you again Sir.

FMJ rounds by design do not fragment in tissue. This was mandated by the Geneva Convention. It was considered inhumane in a time of war. (Go figure). The 6.5mm MC round is a well known (and well liked in Europe), for its exceptional stability. They have a sectional density and ballistic coefficient that makes them deep penetrating, and very stable. Having said that I am of course surprised that this projectile would fragment inside the head. This is contrary to all that we know about the Carcano round. While it is not surprising that the projectile shed fragments from its open end, one would seriously have to consider that the projectile hit something very hard upon exit, and this is what caused it to shatter. Now in the case of the CE399 bullet, I have other issued, namely its lack of deformity. I would certainly not have expected it to fragment on its way through both men (alleged), however, I would certainly expect to see some deformity of the projectile.

The one true anomaly I see is the lack of deformity of the CE399 projectile. I firmly believe that the projectile exiting the head, struck the window chrome and shattered.

I hope this helped and answered your questions to your satisfaction.

Best to you Sir,

Mike

[Mike Williams]

Jim,

"JFK was hit in the throat and in the right temple by shots that were fired from in front." These are not irrefutable facts of this matter. I'm sure you would like them to be, but they're not. They never were.

I appreciate Mr Williams approach to ballistics in this thread, as he's basically trying to make his own calls on a number of subjects others may consider set in stone. In my opinion, such an approach is what is needed in many areas of the JFK case.

Mr. Viklund,

Thank You kindly Sir.

I do try and form my own conclusions. Some I base on practical experience, and some on good old fashion science.

The clear fact is that in order for JFK to be "thrown back violently" as some would claim, he would have to be hit with a howitzer.

I suspect as Fetzer claims to be a former Artillery Officer, that perhaps he has been "shell shocked" and is no thinking clearly. I prefer to think this, as my only other option is to recognize the fact that he either A) Truly is as mentally flaccid as he appears, or He is nothing more than a snake oil salesman.

I would like just once for one of these "frontal shot supporters" to give me specific numbers on the amount of kinetic energy transferred to a target by a perforating bullet. (here is a hint its .1to.3%) A 30-06 firing at 2600fps would impact with 2298 ft lbs of energy at 100 yards. This means if the bullet transits that only .1-.3% or 2.298ft lbs to 6.89 ft lbs of energy would be transferred. An average human punch is 110 ft lbs. So you see Sir it is impossible that a transiting bullet caused that violent rearward reaction.

MY best to you Sir,

Mike

[Mike Williams]

Thank you for your reply.

Good to see that we are on the same page on FMJ rounds and fragmenting.

I'll skip over the "magic bullet" the very slightly deformed one found for now.

However, considering your reply on FMJ's and fragmenting, do you not find it rather bizarre, that there were bullet fragments in both Kennedy's brain as well as Connally's wrist?

As far as I can discern, these were two seprate bullets, and therefore two unusual FMJ rounds pertaining to this case.

I just can't get over how an FMJ round (let alone two) would leave all that led and metal behind, having only struck human tissue?

Just raises a big red flag in my mind.

Any further education on this would be appreciated.

Antti

Sir,

Yes sir I would be glad to.

The 6.5mm Carcano round is a copper jacketed bullet. The reason these are jacketed at all, is because at velocities over 1100fps the lead begins to heat and deform. This can cause serious trajectory issues.

However. When these projectiles are in flight and hit a target, it is not uncommon to lose some lead from the tail of the projectile. It is common given two facts. One the lead is very soft and mailable, so if the jacket deforms at all it squeezes the soft lead out of the tail.

Second, I have seen examples of projectiles that are non jacketed on the bottom, and ones that are jacketed on the bottom. If this projectile had a copper jacket on the bottom as well it would still not necessarily preclude the escape of lead out of the bottom.

It seems at one time someone told me that they were not jacketed on the bottom, but I have been out of the game for a couple years and do not recall.

I hope this has helped and if there is anything I can do I remain

At your service,

Mike

Edited March 26, 2010 by Mike Williams

[Jerry Logan]

..... if I'd been Oswald's defense attorney, my first act would have been to introduce into the record the sworn affidavits of officers Boone and Weitzman, who both identified the rifle found on the sixth floor as a German mauser. Since the prosecution could not have even introduced the carcano into the record, because the only legal record of the search identified the alleged murder weapon as something else entirely, I would have then asked for all charges to be dismissed. Legally speaking, the state had no case against Oswald.

Don,

You should run this by Doug Weldon and see how a former prosecutor reacts.

I'm sure Doug wouldn't have had any trouble getting the rifle into evidence in 1964 Texas.

Jerry

Mr. Logan,

Nice to see you again.

I agree. Prints, Fibers, Paper Trail....what more could you want than a picture of the assassin holding the rifle?

Best Sir,

Mike

Mr. Williams,

I'm glad to see you're back! I hope all is well with you and yours.

There'd be lots of problems with a case against Oswald, but getting the rifle into evidence is definitely not one of them.

On a totally different topic, do you have an opinion about the sound of a high-powered round penetrating a windshield?

Assuming a suppressor - do you think the round through the glass would sound like a firecracker?

Our local SWAT commander had some thoughts but I'd like to get your view before I share his reaction.

From now on I'll be Jerry if you'll be Mike.

Best regards,

Jerry

[Mike Williams]

..... if I'd been Oswald's defense attorney, my first act would have been to introduce into the record the sworn affidavits of officers Boone and Weitzman, who both identified the rifle found on the sixth floor as a German mauser. Since the prosecution could not have even introduced the carcano into the record, because the only legal record of the search identified the alleged murder weapon as something else entirely, I would have then asked for all charges to be dismissed. Legally speaking, the state had no case against Oswald.

Don,

You should run this by Doug Weldon and see how a former prosecutor reacts.

I'm sure Doug wouldn't have had any trouble getting the rifle into evidence in 1964 Texas.

Jerry

Mr. Logan,

Nice to see you again.

I agree. Prints, Fibers, Paper Trail....what more could you want than a picture of the assassin holding the rifle?

Best Sir,

Mike

Mr. Williams,

I'm glad to see you're back! I hope all is well with you and yours.

There'd be lots of problems with a case against Oswald, but getting the rifle into evidence is definitely not one of them.

On a totally different topic, do you have an opinion about the sound of a high-powered round penetrating a windshield?

Assuming a suppressor - do you think the round through the glass would sound like a firecracker?

Our local SWAT commander had some thoughts but I'd like to get your view before I share his reaction.

From now on I'll be Jerry if you'll be Mike.

Best regards,

Jerry

Jerry,

You betcha! It is good to see an old friend.

Initially I would tell you that suppressing a high-powered round is not practical. What you are suppressing is the blast of the muzzle, once the projectile reaches the speed of sound, the crack experienced by those near the path of the bullet would be extremely loud. Most military ammo is loaded to sub sonic standard for use with suppressors.

Now a word about windshields. One I believe the sound could be likened to a firecracker, using sub sonic rounds, were you using full velocity rounds, I assure you the sound of that glass would be the least of your concerns lol.

Windshields present all kinds of issues. They distort the perception of your view on the target, if they have any angle on them at all. While this does not make them impossible to shoot through, it does offer negotiation issues for the shooter.

Glass can deflect even high power rounds. We used a tactic in the Military which involved a small charge on the glass and a detonator to eliminate the glass at almost the same instant as the shot. It was effective, but not to practical on a vehicle.

I assume your addressing the hole in the windshield issue. I would like you to read my post from old titled "A Hole In One". I believe I made some good analysis in that post and the final conclusion to my satisfaction was that there was in fact no hole. I have never bought into the hole theory, and wanted to put the issue to rest, if only for myself. many support the work, many did not. I did and frankly that was enough for me.

I hope I have helped you out here a bit.

If not I am at your service Jerry and again it is great to be back and see you again.

Mike