Ballistics

[Antti Hynonen]

Cmdr. Humes to the Commission: "I can't conceive of where they came from this missile."

http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/index.php/Connally_Wounding

Thank you for your reply.

Good to see that we are on the same page on FMJ rounds and fragmenting.

I'll skip over the "magic bullet" the very slightly deformed one found for now.

However, considering your reply on FMJ's and fragmenting, do you not find it rather bizarre, that there were bullet fragments in both Kennedy's brain as well as Connally's wrist?

As far as I can discern, these were two seprate bullets, and therefore two unusual FMJ rounds pertaining to this case.

I just can't get over how an FMJ round (let alone two) would leave all that led and metal behind, having only struck human tissue?

Just raises a big red flag in my mind.

Any further education on this would be appreciated.

Antti

Sir,

Yes sir I would be glad to.

The 6.5mm Carcano round is a copper jacketed bullet. The reason these are jacketed at all, is because at velocities over 1100fps the lead begins to heat and deform. This can cause serious trajectory issues.

However. When these projectiles are in flight and hit a target, it is not uncommon to lose some lead from the tail of the projectile. It is common given two facts. One the lead is very soft and mailable, so if the jacket deforms at all it squeezes the soft lead out of the tail.

Second, I have seen examples of projectiles that are non jacketed on the bottom, and ones that are jacketed on the bottom. If this projectile had a copper jacket on the bottom as well it would still not necessarily preclude the escape of lead out of the bottom.

It seems at one time someone told me that they were not jacketed on the bottom, but I have been out of the game for a couple years and do not recall.

I hope this has helped and if there is anything I can do I remain

At your service,

Mike

[Mike Williams]

Cmdr. Humes to the Commission: "I can't conceive of where they came from this missile."

http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/index.php/Connally_Wounding

Thank you for your reply.

Good to see that we are on the same page on FMJ rounds and fragmenting.

I'll skip over the "magic bullet" the very slightly deformed one found for now.

However, considering your reply on FMJ's and fragmenting, do you not find it rather bizarre, that there were bullet fragments in both Kennedy's brain as well as Connally's wrist?

As far as I can discern, these were two seprate bullets, and therefore two unusual FMJ rounds pertaining to this case.

I just can't get over how an FMJ round (let alone two) would leave all that led and metal behind, having only struck human tissue?

Just raises a big red flag in my mind.

Any further education on this would be appreciated.

Antti

Sir,

Yes sir I would be glad to.

The 6.5mm Carcano round is a copper jacketed bullet. The reason these are jacketed at all, is because at velocities over 1100fps the lead begins to heat and deform. This can cause serious trajectory issues.

However. When these projectiles are in flight and hit a target, it is not uncommon to lose some lead from the tail of the projectile. It is common given two facts. One the lead is very soft and mailable, so if the jacket deforms at all it squeezes the soft lead out of the tail.

Second, I have seen examples of projectiles that are non jacketed on the bottom, and ones that are jacketed on the bottom. If this projectile had a copper jacket on the bottom as well it would still not necessarily preclude the escape of lead out of the bottom.

It seems at one time someone told me that they were not jacketed on the bottom, but I have been out of the game for a couple years and do not recall.

I hope this has helped and if there is anything I can do I remain

At your service,

Mike

Mr. Hynonen,

I thought CE842 was a single 1/2 grain fragment?

I also found the article that tells us the base of CE399 does have an open core.

Mike

[Antti Hynonen]

Mr. Williams,

I don't know about CE842.... I know that the x-ray shows more than one fragment in the wrist x-ray and apparently more than one in the thigh. (You can find the x-rays in the link provided by me).

Humes also says "they" referring to multiple fragments. My first point is, if a military pathologsist (working with the actual body and the forensic evidence) has trouble accepting the evidence and "putting the puzzle together", no wonder many others do too.

My second point is, that with the above and e.g. Humes' statement, I suggest that he too considered that a military style FMJ (non fragmenting round) would not leave the type of fragments behind. Further evidence suggestive of the trouble with this case is the massive destruction of the brain and the large defect to the skull.

From what I have read and learned, the head wound is extremely unlikely with an FMJ round, even with an open core.

Nevertheless, thanks for all your insight.

Antti

Cmdr. Humes to the Commission: "I can't conceive of where they came from this missile."

http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/index.php/Connally_Wounding

Thank you for your reply.

Good to see that we are on the same page on FMJ rounds and fragmenting.

I'll skip over the "magic bullet" the very slightly deformed one found for now.

However, considering your reply on FMJ's and fragmenting, do you not find it rather bizarre, that there were bullet fragments in both Kennedy's brain as well as Connally's wrist?

As far as I can discern, these were two seprate bullets, and therefore two unusual FMJ rounds pertaining to this case.

I just can't get over how an FMJ round (let alone two) would leave all that led and metal behind, having only struck human tissue?

Just raises a big red flag in my mind.

Any further education on this would be appreciated.

Antti

Sir,

Yes sir I would be glad to.

The 6.5mm Carcano round is a copper jacketed bullet. The reason these are jacketed at all, is because at velocities over 1100fps the lead begins to heat and deform. This can cause serious trajectory issues.

However. When these projectiles are in flight and hit a target, it is not uncommon to lose some lead from the tail of the projectile. It is common given two facts. One the lead is very soft and mailable, so if the jacket deforms at all it squeezes the soft lead out of the tail.

Second, I have seen examples of projectiles that are non jacketed on the bottom, and ones that are jacketed on the bottom. If this projectile had a copper jacket on the bottom as well it would still not necessarily preclude the escape of lead out of the bottom.

It seems at one time someone told me that they were not jacketed on the bottom, but I have been out of the game for a couple years and do not recall.

I hope this has helped and if there is anything I can do I remain

At your service,

Mike

Mr. Hynonen,

I thought CE842 was a single 1/2 grain fragment?

I also found the article that tells us the base of CE399 does have an open core.

Mike

Edited March 30, 2010 by Antti Hynonen

[Martin Hinrichs]

Martin, a bullet fragment deflecting off the top right side of Kennedy's head at frame 313 could pass over the windshield and be on an almost straight course to Tague's position. A fairly large section of the bullet--larger than an M-16 bullet--is missing. If that fragment deflected off largely intact it would have the mass and speed to chip the curb.

If the bullet actually passed through the head, and broke up upon impact with the windshield strut, however, I would agree that it's doubtful that a piece of the bullet could somehow curve through the air over the top of the windshield and chip the concrete by Tague. It's doubtful, IMO, that an M/C would even shatter upon impact with a chrome strip. No one has ever tested this, as far as I know.

Thank you Pat for you thoughts. Much appreciated.

Please let me illustrate what i mean.

Altgens6, belonging to Z#255 shows the Limousine through Altgens viewfinder.

Ike Altgens was standing at street level shooting that picture. I don't know how tall he was but it is fair to assume that his lens height was

a little over the top of the limousine's windshield.

We can see in Atgens6 that the top of JFK's head is out of sight although Altgens lens was actually higher (should look over the windshield a bit.).

That depends most likely on the fact the JFK slumped forward and down after he was hit at Z#210-232.

Even more during 255 and 313 his progress to slump forward continues. Means his head height was lower at Z#313 than Z#255.

Here you see an illustration where i estimate the top of JFK's head in Altgens6.

That would mean a bullet fragment deflecting off the top of Kennedy's head at frame 313 would pass over the windshield at an upward angle to Tague's position.

Even if it would be just 1°, at a distance of approx 80 Meter (the distance from Z#313 to Tague) means that a bullet fragment flying straight traversing 1,39m

higher than the windshield at that distance. At an angle of 2.5° it would ending 3,49m higher than the windshield. You have to add the height of the windshield(which is approx 57 inches ergo 1,44m) to this numbers. So, in the last example it would means a sum of 4,93m or 194 inches or roughly 16 feet.

An angle of 2.5 degrees is a proper but conservative estimate.

Here is a composite showing this trajectory at that angle:

This calculation is based on the very little chance that this fragement traveled between this two sun visors of the SS-100-X. (Look at Altgens5-6)

A traversing over the sun visors would increase the angle to some 5-6 degrees.

But a straight trajectory from Tague---between the two sun visors---to JFK's head would place JFK's head to the left side of the limousine....almost where Jackie was sitting.

Please let me know when you need an illustration for that scenario.

best to you

Martin

Edited March 28, 2010 by Martin Hinrichs

[Martin Hinrichs]

Martin,

I disagree. A projectile fragment could well have traveled to Tague. Given that we do not know what the projectile did once it hit the chrome, we could not possibly rule this out.

Mike

Hi Mike. No problem to disagree. That happens most of times on forums. Isn't it?

You talking about a proctile hit the chrome.

I asssume you are familiar with that image:

What i see is a serious damage to the the chrome caused by a bullet/bullet fragement in the center of the metal windshield frame.

I see a serious intact portion of the windshield metal above of the damage. An inch? Maybe.

I cannot imagine how a fragment could travel over this bulge damage.

But if that really happend at what degree and what power loss?

That projectile would most likely falling down back into the limousine.

best to you

Martin

[Mike Williams]

Martin,

I disagree. A projectile fragment could well have traveled to Tague. Given that we do not know what the projectile did once it hit the chrome, we could not possibly rule this out.

Mike

Hi Mike. No problem to disagree. That happens most of times on forums. Isn't it?

You talking about a proctile hit the chrome.

I asssume you are familiar with that image:

What i see is a serious damage to the the chrome caused by a bullet/bullet fragement in the center of the metal windshield frame.

I see a serious intact portion of the windshield metal above of the damage. An inch? Maybe.

I cannot imagine how a fragment could travel over this bulge damage.

But if that really happend at what degree and what power loss?

That projectile would most likely falling down back into the limousine.

best to you

Martin

Martin,

Compared to the rear view mirror dimensions the dent in the chrome fits a 6.5mm rather well. I do not think the projectile left JFK and went straight to JT. I believe that bullet passed through JFK and hit that Chrome. (I could calculate the velocity) And shattered and a fragment of that struck JT. I should have made that a bit more specific than just saying "from the head shot" So if that projectile struck the chrome at over 1000 FPS, then I have every confidence it could make the trip. The Distance from 313 to Tague is 282', if the fragment weighed just 5 grains, it would still be at 972 feet per second when reaching JT.

So the bullet leaves the muzzle at 2165fps, reaches JFK @ 1889 FPS/1268ft-lbs, passes through a 12" head losing 30ft-lbs per inch.so it exits JFK @ 1598fps or 900 ft-lbs. So even considering the impact to the chrome cast off is still plenty fast enough to hit JT and give him a nick, or much worse.

I would say that would be sufficient to leave a scratch, and very likely just tells us that JT may have been a pretty lucky man that day.

Best to you Martin!

Mike

Edited March 29, 2010 by Mike Williams

[Martin Hinrichs]

Martin,

Compared to the rear view mirror dimensions the dent in the chrome fits a 6.5mm rather well. I do not think the projectile left JFK and went straight to JT. I believe that bullet passed through JFK and hit that Chrome. (I could calculate the velocity) And shattered and a fragment of that struck JT. I should have made that a bit more specific than just saying "from the head shot" So if that projectile struck the chrome at over 1000 FPS, then I have every confidence it could make the trip. The Distance from 313 to Tague is 282', if the fragment weighed just 5 grains, it would still be at 972 feet per second when reaching JT.

So the bullet leaves the muzzle at 2165fps, reaches JFK @ 1889 FPS/1268ft-lbs, passes through a 12" head losing 30ft-lbs per inch.so it exits JFK @ 1598fps or 900 ft-lbs. So even considering the impact to the chrome cast off is still plenty fast enough to hit JT and give him a nick, or much worse.

I would say that would be sufficient to leave a scratch, and very likely just tells us that JT may have been a pretty lucky man that day.

Best to you Martin!

Mike

Mike,

just to make sure i got it correct, here's an illustration of your scenario.

You said: I believe that bullet passed through JFK and hit that Chrome. (I could calculate the velocity) And shattered and a fragment of that struck JT

This fragment would make a turn around the windshield frame in order to hit James Tague:

Sorry mate, thats beyond my imagination power. LOL

What i miss in your calculations is.....what about the curb with the fresh chip damage south of Main?

What's with that?

best to you Mike

Martin

[John Dolva]

Typical turcoid(sic?) scratches.

Obviously the sunvisors were up, and it looks to me that, in line with the cracked glass area, the visor mount is distoried.

[Mike Williams]

Martin,

Compared to the rear view mirror dimensions the dent in the chrome fits a 6.5mm rather well. I do not think the projectile left JFK and went straight to JT. I believe that bullet passed through JFK and hit that Chrome. (I could calculate the velocity) And shattered and a fragment of that struck JT. I should have made that a bit more specific than just saying "from the head shot" So if that projectile struck the chrome at over 1000 FPS, then I have every confidence it could make the trip. The Distance from 313 to Tague is 282', if the fragment weighed just 5 grains, it would still be at 972 feet per second when reaching JT.

So the bullet leaves the muzzle at 2165fps, reaches JFK @ 1889 FPS/1268ft-lbs, passes through a 12" head losing 30ft-lbs per inch.so it exits JFK @ 1598fps or 900 ft-lbs. So even considering the impact to the chrome cast off is still plenty fast enough to hit JT and give him a nick, or much worse.

I would say that would be sufficient to leave a scratch, and very likely just tells us that JT may have been a pretty lucky man that day.

Best to you Martin!

Mike

Mike,

just to make sure i got it correct, here's an illustration of your scenario.

You said: I believe that bullet passed through JFK and hit that Chrome. (I could calculate the velocity) And shattered and a fragment of that struck JT

This fragment would make a turn around the windshield frame in order to hit James Tague:

Sorry mate, thats beyond my imagination power. LOL

What i miss in your calculations is.....what about the curb with the fresh chip damage south of Main?

What's with that?

best to you Mike

Martin

Martin damage to the curb does not have to come from the same fragment that injured JT. You are assuming that the fragment would carry a direct trajectory. This would actually be a very slight chance. It is far more likely that this fragment was in irregular shape, and there for would have unknown flight characteristics. All we can accurately calculate is the velocity, after that any conclusion would be pure speculation based on the amount of unknown factors. Such as shape of the fragment. There is sufficient evidence to prove it had the velocity. That is really all we can prove. We do know that this was not the impact of a direct projectile, as it had lead and no copper in the mark. Had it been a direct strike it would have contained copper.

Mike

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Thank you for your reply.

Good to see that we are on the same page on FMJ rounds and fragmenting.

I'll skip over the "magic bullet" the very slightly deformed one found for now.

However, considering your reply on FMJ's and fragmenting, do you not find it rather bizarre, that there were bullet fragments in both Kennedy's brain as well as Connally's wrist?

As far as I can discern, these were two seprate bullets, and therefore two unusual FMJ rounds pertaining to this case.

I just can't get over how an FMJ round (let alone two) would leave all that led and metal behind, having only struck human tissue?

Just raises a big red flag in my mind.

Any further education on this would be appreciated.

Antti

Sir,

Yes sir I would be glad to.

The 6.5mm Carcano round is a copper jacketed bullet. The reason these are jacketed at all, is because at velocities over 1100fps the lead begins to heat and deform. This can cause serious trajectory issues.

However. When these projectiles are in flight and hit a target, it is not uncommon to lose some lead from the tail of the projectile. It is common given two facts. One the lead is very soft and mailable, so if the jacket deforms at all it squeezes the soft lead out of the tail.

Second, I have seen examples of projectiles that are non jacketed on the bottom, and ones that are jacketed on the bottom. If this projectile had a copper jacket on the bottom as well it would still not necessarily preclude the escape of lead out of the bottom.

It seems at one time someone told me that they were not jacketed on the bottom, but I have been out of the game for a couple years and do not recall.

I hope this has helped and if there is anything I can do I remain

At your service,

Mike

Mike:

Too bad you missed the "photo" works of long ago.

The WCC 6.5mm Carcano round is constructed with the copper jacket partially covering the lead core at the bullet base.

The copper jacket is "crimped" over/around the base to a width of approximately 1mm for the entire circumference of the base of the bullet.

This leaves a 4.5mm width/diameter, virtually perfect circle of the lead core exposed at the base of the bullet.

Tom

[Mike Williams]

Thank you for your reply.

Good to see that we are on the same page on FMJ rounds and fragmenting.

I'll skip over the "magic bullet" the very slightly deformed one found for now.

However, considering your reply on FMJ's and fragmenting, do you not find it rather bizarre, that there were bullet fragments in both Kennedy's brain as well as Connally's wrist?

As far as I can discern, these were two seprate bullets, and therefore two unusual FMJ rounds pertaining to this case.

I just can't get over how an FMJ round (let alone two) would leave all that led and metal behind, having only struck human tissue?

Just raises a big red flag in my mind.

Any further education on this would be appreciated.

Antti

Sir,

Yes sir I would be glad to.

The 6.5mm Carcano round is a copper jacketed bullet. The reason these are jacketed at all, is because at velocities over 1100fps the lead begins to heat and deform. This can cause serious trajectory issues.

However. When these projectiles are in flight and hit a target, it is not uncommon to lose some lead from the tail of the projectile. It is common given two facts. One the lead is very soft and mailable, so if the jacket deforms at all it squeezes the soft lead out of the tail.

Second, I have seen examples of projectiles that are non jacketed on the bottom, and ones that are jacketed on the bottom. If this projectile had a copper jacket on the bottom as well it would still not necessarily preclude the escape of lead out of the bottom.

It seems at one time someone told me that they were not jacketed on the bottom, but I have been out of the game for a couple years and do not recall.

I hope this has helped and if there is anything I can do I remain

At your service,

Mike

Mike:

Too bad you missed the "photo" works of long ago.

The WCC 6.5mm Carcano round is constructed with the copper jacket partially covering the lead core at the bullet base.

The copper jacket is "crimped" over/around the base to a width of approximately 1mm for the entire circumference of the base of the bullet.

This leaves a 4.5mm width/diameter, virtually perfect circle of the lead core exposed at the base of the bullet.

Tom

Yes Sir and this is the area in cause and effect for the toothpaste to be squeezed from the tube!

I have a few rounds of this era 6.5 Carcano ammo, but have not disassembled any, perhaps I should take just one of them apart for demonstration purposes.

Hope you have been well my friend!

Mike

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Thank you for your reply.

Good to see that we are on the same page on FMJ rounds and fragmenting.

I'll skip over the "magic bullet" the very slightly deformed one found for now.

However, considering your reply on FMJ's and fragmenting, do you not find it rather bizarre, that there were bullet fragments in both Kennedy's brain as well as Connally's wrist?

As far as I can discern, these were two seprate bullets, and therefore two unusual FMJ rounds pertaining to this case.

I just can't get over how an FMJ round (let alone two) would leave all that led and metal behind, having only struck human tissue?

Just raises a big red flag in my mind.

Any further education on this would be appreciated.

Antti

Take a good look at CE840 and you will find that portion of the "toothpaste" which was squeezed out of the tube and subsequently sheared from the base of the bullet as a result of impact with the right transvese process of the C7 vertebrae.

Thereafter, to exit through the throat, creating a small lateral tear in the trachea as it passed through, prior to exiting in the anterior throat and creating the extremely small 3mm to 5mm exit wound of the anterior throat which Dr. Perry observed and through which wound he made the tracheotomy incision.

The "cone-shaped"/"flat-based" fragment of CE840 was found in the left rear floor (where Jackie placed her feet).

It weighed 0.9 grains and FBI Agent Robert Frazier identified it as "POSS C1"/aka Possibly from CE399, prior to FBI Supervisor William Sullivan having removed it and the two other fragments of CE840 from the FBI Ballistics Laboratory.

There, my friend, is 0.9 grain of the missing weight to CE399, and, when coupled with the approximately 0.67 grains of weight loss to CE399 from merely having been fired, we now have slightly in excess of 160.0 grains of CE399 account for.

(160.17 grains actually), which does not include the small metallic residue which has been observed in the X-rays and which fragments/residue is located within the neck of JFK at the approximate location of the fracture to the right transverse process of the damaged vertebrae.

Tom

PS. If you run out of anything better to do, shoot a WCC Carcano bullet through a 1-inch thick tree limb.

Thereafter, determine at approximately what distance the bullet begins to tumble in flight as a result of loss of stability, and then also do a "comparative analysis" of the test bullet with the anomailies which CE399 possesses.

Might suprise you what you will find.

P.P.S. The Warren Commission did not cut the limbs out of the top of the live oak tree located directly in front of the TSDB, on May 25, 1963 (the day after their assassination survey & re-enactment), because they just had nothing better to do that day.

Sir,

Yes sir I would be glad to.

The 6.5mm Carcano round is a copper jacketed bullet. The reason these are jacketed at all, is because at velocities over 1100fps the lead begins to heat and deform. This can cause serious trajectory issues.

However. When these projectiles are in flight and hit a target, it is not uncommon to lose some lead from the tail of the projectile. It is common given two facts. One the lead is very soft and mailable, so if the jacket deforms at all it squeezes the soft lead out of the tail.

Second, I have seen examples of projectiles that are non jacketed on the bottom, and ones that are jacketed on the bottom. If this projectile had a copper jacket on the bottom as well it would still not necessarily preclude the escape of lead out of the bottom.

It seems at one time someone told me that they were not jacketed on the bottom, but I have been out of the game for a couple years and do not recall.

I hope this has helped and if there is anything I can do I remain

At your service,

Mike

Mike:

Too bad you missed the "photo" works of long ago.

The WCC 6.5mm Carcano round is constructed with the copper jacket partially covering the lead core at the bullet base.

The copper jacket is "crimped" over/around the base to a width of approximately 1mm for the entire circumference of the base of the bullet.

This leaves a 4.5mm width/diameter, virtually perfect circle of the lead core exposed at the base of the bullet.

Tom

Yes Sir and this is the area in cause and effect for the toothpaste to be squeezed from the tube!

I have a few rounds of this era 6.5 Carcano ammo, but have not disassembled any, perhaps I should take just one of them apart for demonstration purposes.

Hope you have been well my friend!

Mike

[Mike Williams]

Tom,

All good stuff!

Guess I need to come off some of those old MC rounds and get to shootin.

Mike

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Tom,

All good stuff!

Guess I need to come off some of those old MC rounds and get to shootin.

Mike

Actually, I have only two remaining (intact) WCC 6.5mm Carcano rounds, and have no intention of shooting either one.

As difficult as it was to part with (shoot) a portion of those found, if one is going to do "comparative testing", then one should not attempt to do so with any of the new NORMA ammo.

However, the actual Italian rounds are quite similiar in structure to the WCC round, and can be easily utilized to determine if (which it does) a copper-jacketed Carcano bullet actually loses stability and begins to tumble in flight after having been fired through a 1-inch thick oak limb.

[William Kelly]

Tom,

All good stuff!

Guess I need to come off some of those old MC rounds and get to shootin.

Mike

Actually, I have only two remaining (intact) WCC 6.5mm Carcano rounds, and have no intention of shooting either one.

As difficult as it was to part with (shoot) a portion of those found, if one is going to do "comparative testing", then one should not attempt to do so with any of the new NORMA ammo.

However, the actual Italian rounds are quite similiar in structure to the WCC round, and can be easily utilized to determine if (which it does) a copper-jacketed Carcano bullet actually loses stability and begins to tumble in flight after having been fired through a 1-inch thick oak limb.

Do you ballistics guys know how or why and of any other examples of a bullet fragmenting like the one that hit JFK's head?

And has anyone tried to account for all of the fragments?

Thanks,

BK