Chris Davidson Posted March 31, 2010 Author Share Posted March 31, 2010 13 frames equals approx 10 ft. farther down the street with limo traveling at 9.2 mph.Mr. ALTGENS - This would put me at approximately this area here, which would be about 15 feet from me at the time he was shot in the head--about 15 feet from the car on the west side of the car--on the side that Mrs. Kennedy was riding in the car. I had refocused to 15 feet because I wanted a good closeup of the President and Mrs. Kennedy, and that's why I know that it would be right at 15 feet, because I had prefocused in that area, and I had my camera almost to my eye when it happened and that's as far as I got with my camera. Because, you see, even up to that time I didn't know that the President had been shot previously. I still thought up until that time that all I heard was fireworks and that they were giving some sort of celebration to the President by popping these fireworks. It stunned me so at what I saw that I failed to do my duty and make the picture that I was hoping to make. There was flesh particles that flew out of the side of his head in my direction from where I was standing, Mr. LIEBELER - And that it was 15 feet away at the time the third shot was fired. Mr. ALTGENS - Yes, sir. Mr. LIEBELER - I don't know how many feet it moved, but it moved quite a ways from the time the first shot was fired until the time the third shot was fired. I'm having trouble on this Exhibit No. 203 understanding how you could have been within 30 feet of the President's car when you took Commission Exhibit No. 203 and within 15 feet of the car when he was hit with the last shot in the head without having moved yourself. Now, you have previously indicated that you were right beside the President's car when he was hit in the head. Mr. ALTGENS - Well, I was about 15 feet from it. Mr. LIEBELER - But it was almost directly in front of you as it went down the street; isn't that right? Mr. ALTGENS - Yes. Mr. LIEBELER - So, it is clear from your testimony that the third shot--the last shot, rather--hit the President? Mr. ALTGENS - Well, off and on we have been referring to the third shot and the fourth shot; but actually, it was the last shot, the shot did strike the President and there was no other sound like a shot that was made after that. I was just going to make a conclusion here, but that's not my place to do that, so I'll just forget it--what I was going to say chris Distance Measurements. Thank you Tom Purvis. http://98.155.2.255:8400/4CD9F/Yellow_Curb...easurements.jpg chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Burnham Posted March 31, 2010 Share Posted March 31, 2010 I'll start this with an excerpt from the S.M. Holland interview.http://98.155.2.255:8400/F3DEA/HOLLAND.mov Please note his description of the sound difference between shots. chris Holland says the 4th shot was much louder than the 3rd shot. Bill Newman's reaction is to the loudest shot. Newman sees and describes the 313 shot, but his reaction in Nix indicates a response to the later shot. chris Chris, I tend to believe that the location of Z-313 (physically marked on the street) is erroneous. I further believe that the Z-film frames are less than reliable [read:INACCURATE] when used as a baseline to determine...ummmm--just about anything! It is not an accurate "time clock" for starters, for numerous reasons. Unfortunately, it is "just close enough" to occupy our attention in an attempt to discover the truth, only to disappoint in the end. However, close scrutiny reveals little about reality, beyond the fact that the perpetrators were very thorough. The alteration of the Zapruder film is probably the single most effective element of the ongoing cover up [obstruction of justice] in the assassination of John F Kennedy. It sends even sincere researchers down the wrong path... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dolva Posted March 31, 2010 Share Posted March 31, 2010 ''The'' - varied notions of -'' alteration of the Zapruder film is probably the single most effective element of the ongoing cover up [obstruction of justice] in the assassination of John F Kennedy. It sends even sincere researchers down the wrong path...''. ------------------ Chris, can you get your mind around the notion of a combination of muzzle blast and sonic signature re the third and fourth as one and thence work out some scenario with the position of Holland and the snipers location? I can't I got a glimmer of a notion that there might be some way to use the outside the norm shot descriptions to perhaps triangulate the source? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hogan Posted April 1, 2010 Share Posted April 1, 2010 The alteration of the Zapruder film is probably the single most effective element of the ongoing cover up [obstruction of justice] in the assassination of John F Kennedy. It sends even sincere researchers down the wrong path... Greg, I certainly enjoy reading your contributions to the Education Forum. The above seems true. It might be that the falsification and destruction of so much of the medical evidence runs a close second. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack White Posted April 1, 2010 Share Posted April 1, 2010 I'll start this with an excerpt from the S.M. Holland interview.http://98.155.2.255:8400/F3DEA/HOLLAND.mov Please note his description of the sound difference between shots. chris Holland says the 4th shot was much louder than the 3rd shot. Bill Newman's reaction is to the loudest shot. Newman sees and describes the 313 shot, but his reaction in Nix indicates a response to the later shot. chris Chris, I tend to believe that the location of Z-313 (physically marked on the street) is erroneous. I further believe that the Z-film frames are less than reliable [read:INACCURATE] when used as a baseline to determine...ummmm--just about anything! It is not an accurate "time clock" for starters, for numerous reasons. Unfortunately, it is "just close enough" to occupy our attention in an attempt to discover the truth, only to disappoint in the end. However, close scrutiny reveals little about reality, beyond the fact that the perpetrators were very thorough. The alteration of the Zapruder film is probably the single most effective element of the ongoing cover up [obstruction of justice] in the assassination of John F Kennedy. It sends even sincere researchers down the wrong path... Tom Wilson established that the head shot was approximately across from the knoll steps. Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Burnham Posted April 1, 2010 Share Posted April 1, 2010 The alteration of the Zapruder film is probably the single most effective element of the ongoing cover up [obstruction of justice] in the assassination of John F Kennedy. It sends even sincere researchers down the wrong path... Greg, I certainly enjoy reading your contributions to the Education Forum. The above seems true. It might be that the falsification and destruction of so much of the medical evidence runs a close second. Thank you Michael--and I agree with you about the medical record. Of course, if we split hairs, the Secret Service screw ups were possibly the most egregious of those that directly effected the immediate outcome of the event itself. Given that fact, perhaps the cover up of their negligence (if not complicity) is perhaps monumental. Secret---indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Williams Posted April 1, 2010 Share Posted April 1, 2010 I'll start this with an excerpt from the S.M. Holland interview.http://98.155.2.255:8400/F3DEA/HOLLAND.mov Please note his description of the sound difference between shots. chris Holland says the 4th shot was much louder than the 3rd shot. Bill Newman's reaction is to the loudest shot. Newman sees and describes the 313 shot, but his reaction in Nix indicates a response to the later shot. chris Chris, I tend to believe that the location of Z-313 (physically marked on the street) is erroneous. I further believe that the Z-film frames are less than reliable [read:INACCURATE] when used as a baseline to determine...ummmm--just about anything! It is not an accurate "time clock" for starters, for numerous reasons. Unfortunately, it is "just close enough" to occupy our attention in an attempt to discover the truth, only to disappoint in the end. However, close scrutiny reveals little about reality, beyond the fact that the perpetrators were very thorough. The alteration of the Zapruder film is probably the single most effective element of the ongoing cover up [obstruction of justice] in the assassination of John F Kennedy. It sends even sincere researchers down the wrong path... Tom Wilson established that the head shot was approximately across from the knoll steps. Jack Jack that would put the spot just a bit east of the x on the road correct? I thought I saw Gary mack in a video standing on the correct spot, and saying the X was incorrect. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Davidson Posted April 1, 2010 Author Share Posted April 1, 2010 (edited) I'll start this with an excerpt from the S.M. Holland interview.http://98.155.2.255:8400/F3DEA/HOLLAND.mov Please note his description of the sound difference between shots. chris Holland says the 4th shot was much louder than the 3rd shot. Bill Newman's reaction is to the loudest shot. Newman sees and describes the 313 shot, but his reaction in Nix indicates a response to the later shot. chris Chris, I tend to believe that the location of Z-313 (physically marked on the street) is erroneous. I further believe that the Z-film frames are less than reliable [read:INACCURATE] when used as a baseline to determine...ummmm--just about anything! It is not an accurate "time clock" for starters, for numerous reasons. Unfortunately, it is "just close enough" to occupy our attention in an attempt to discover the truth, only to disappoint in the end. However, close scrutiny reveals little about reality, beyond the fact that the perpetrators were very thorough. The alteration of the Zapruder film is probably the single most effective element of the ongoing cover up [obstruction of justice] in the assassination of John F Kennedy. It sends even sincere researchers down the wrong path... Tom Wilson established that the head shot was approximately across from the knoll steps. Jack Thanks Jack. Can you briefly describe how he came to that conclusion? That would corroborate what Tom Purvis has provided in the past, WC document 875, which is provided as part of this file. http://98.155.2.255:8400/98C58/Orientation.jpg I also included a view of that curb mark from a photo taken at or near the steps, along with Tom's measurements again. chris Edited April 2, 2010 by Chris Davidson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Davidson Posted April 1, 2010 Author Share Posted April 1, 2010 ''The'' - varied notions of -'' alteration of the Zapruder film is probably the single most effective element of the ongoing cover up [obstruction of justice] in the assassination of John F Kennedy. It sends even sincere researchers down the wrong path...''.------------------ Chris, can you get your mind around the notion of a combination of muzzle blast and sonic signature re the third and fourth as one and thence work out some scenario with the position of Holland and the snipers location? I can't I got a glimmer of a notion that there might be some way to use the outside the norm shot descriptions to perhaps triangulate the source? John, Haven't got that far, yet. I'm trying to keep the firing location aspect out of this right now. I've tried to mold together different pieces, and see if this scenario is feasible. I believe there is at least one shot after 313. Newman starts ducking and covering at about 332. He said he only heard two shots. I don't think he heard the 313 shot. I think he saw it's affect, but reacted to the louder sound a split second later. If there is a weak link/s in what I have presented, please chime in. chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Davidson Posted April 1, 2010 Author Share Posted April 1, 2010 I'll start this with an excerpt from the S.M. Holland interview.http://98.155.2.255:8400/F3DEA/HOLLAND.mov Please note his description of the sound difference between shots. chris Holland says the 4th shot was much louder than the 3rd shot. Bill Newman's reaction is to the loudest shot. Newman sees and describes the 313 shot, but his reaction in Nix indicates a response to the later shot. chris Chris, I tend to believe that the location of Z-313 (physically marked on the street) is erroneous. I further believe that the Z-film frames are less than reliable [read:INACCURATE] when used as a baseline to determine...ummmm--just about anything! It is not an accurate "time clock" for starters, for numerous reasons. Unfortunately, it is "just close enough" to occupy our attention in an attempt to discover the truth, only to disappoint in the end. However, close scrutiny reveals little about reality, beyond the fact that the perpetrators were very thorough. The alteration of the Zapruder film is probably the single most effective element of the ongoing cover up [obstruction of justice] in the assassination of John F Kennedy. It sends even sincere researchers down the wrong path... Hi Greg, I would tend to agree with much of what you have said. But, I'm trying to supply a somewhat cohesive scenario with (in my opinion) concrete multiple elements thrown in, to see if it holds water. chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dolva Posted April 1, 2010 Share Posted April 1, 2010 Chris, I'm very intrigued with your study and am following it. I think it can answer many questions. I'll mention things now and then that porb are peripheral, but please keep presenting to your agenda. Imo your approach has a lot of merit, particularlu, imo, the lack of pre judice. It's the way to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Burnham Posted April 1, 2010 Share Posted April 1, 2010 (edited) I understand, Chris. Good approach, IMO. BTW: when I watched your NIX film and identified the frame number where Toni appears to react, it seems to be at 322. It is in that frame that she literally changes direction from where she was originally running. Her left foot is planted, then bends at the knee, while she pushes off of it to move to her right--away from what she appears to percieve as the line of fire. I thought that Newman reacted slightly in the same frame or the next one (323) and "began" his move away (in the same direction as Toni back up Elm St.) before hitting the ground. Edited April 1, 2010 by Greg Burnham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Andrews Posted April 1, 2010 Share Posted April 1, 2010 What I find very interesting--as I've said before--is the relative SIZE of Zapruder as compared to people seen in the foreground. Closer objects should appear larger than objects of relatively the same size that are farther away. He seems awfully tall using that standard.But, I digress, that's a topic for a different thread. An aside, toward that different thread: Are there eyewitnesses to "that guy in black filming from the pedestal" - Zapruder? He and Marilyn Sitzman must have attracted some attention up there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Davidson Posted April 2, 2010 Author Share Posted April 2, 2010 (edited) Audio of the gunshots. http://98.155.2.255:8400/F480E/DEALEY8K.mp3 Timed with a stopwatch, I get these results. First sound at 0. Second at 2.2 seconds. Third at 7.8 seconds. Last at 8.8 seconds. If you compare the individual time difference between shots 2/3 and 2/4 to the previously supplied D.B. Thomas document, sounds 2,3 and 4 work well. The first sound comparison is off by approx 7/10 of a second. chris Edited April 2, 2010 by Chris Davidson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antti Hynonen Posted April 8, 2010 Share Posted April 8, 2010 (edited) Third at 7.8 seconds.Last at 8.8 seconds. Yes, what carcano can you recycle and fire relatively accurately in 1.0 seconds? I think Second at 2.2 seconds. is also very challenging.Audio of the gunshots.http://98.155.2.255:8400/F480E/DEALEY8K.mp3 Timed with a stopwatch, I get these results. First sound at 0. Second at 2.2 seconds. Third at 7.8 seconds. Last at 8.8 seconds. If you compare the individual time difference between shots 2/3 and 2/4 to the previously supplied D.B. Thomas document, sounds 2,3 and 4 work well. The first sound comparison is off by approx 7/10 of a second. chris Edited April 8, 2010 by Antti Hynonen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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