THE TWYMAN/FETZER SHELL GAME

[Josiah Thompson]

I agree that a number of Sheriff's Dept. employees, Dallas Police employees, and newsman Tom Alyea, all claimed, from the very first, that three shells were recovered, and that this leads me to suspect there were indeed three shells.

But the early paperwork doesn't really support this. There should have been an 11-22 memo saying three shells were recovered, and that Fritz held onto one. As I recall, no such memo exists. Sloppy. Sloppy. Sloppy.

Posner now claims Lane could have got Oswald acquitted. I can only assume this is one of the reasons why.

But the question here, Pat, is really different. If you could prove that two, not three, cartridge cases were found on the 6th floor this would really be momemtous. However, when you look at the actual evidence produced by Twyman and relied upon by Fetzer, it all looks very vacuous. Would you want to base a claim concerning basic facts of the assassination on evidence so dubious? My point is that this is is changing the evidentiary package of the case without foundation. And I think this is really pernicious? I'd like to know what you think.

You're an independent guy. What do you think?

Josiah Thompson

[Mark Knight]

I find it odd that no one picked up on the OTHER glaring error in the FBI/DPD receipt...that the rifle was referred to as a LEVER action, when it is CLEARLY a BOLT action. Interesting that NEITHER the DPD nor the FBI questioned that. I'm no firearms expert by any stretch of the imagination, but any kid who's ever hunted squirrels with a .22 knows a lever action from a bolt action. Wonder how that slid past BOTH agencies?

was there a description discrepancy in the ads?

The Mannlicher-Carcano was never available as a lever-action rifle [think "cowboy rifle"]. The lever action reference, im MY mind, goes back to the earliest description of the murder weapon released over the radio, which referred to a "30 caliber rifle." The most popular 30 caliber rifle in America, at least in 1963, was the Winchester 30-30, which was a legendary lever action rifle. The military, with the exception of the old Indian-fighting days, has almost exclusively used bolt action rifles.

So obvioulsy any gun expert on the DPD knew that M-C serial number C2766 was a BOLT action rifle, and NOT a Lever action. Ditto for the FBI. So how did BOTH manage to sign off on the receipt for a lever-action rifle...effectively signing something that ALL PARTIES INVOLVED knew was NOT an accurate representation of the rifle before them, and therefore also NOT an accurate representation of the facts?

Mighty puzzling, IMHO, as these were TRAINED PROFESSIONALS here, not rank amateurs.

[Pat Speer]

I agree that a number of Sheriff's Dept. employees, Dallas Police employees, and newsman Tom Alyea, all claimed, from the very first, that three shells were recovered, and that this leads me to suspect there were indeed three shells.

But the early paperwork doesn't really support this. There should have been an 11-22 memo saying three shells were recovered, and that Fritz held onto one. As I recall, no such memo exists. Sloppy. Sloppy. Sloppy.

Posner now claims Lane could have got Oswald acquitted. I can only assume this is one of the reasons why.

But the question here, Pat, is really different. If you could prove that two, not three, cartridge cases were found on the 6th floor this would really be momemtous. However, when you look at the actual evidence produced by Twyman and relied upon by Fetzer, it all looks very vacuous. Would you want to base a claim concerning basic facts of the assassination on evidence so dubious? My point is that this is is changing the evidentiary package of the case without foundation. And I think this is really pernicious? I'd like to know what you think.

You're an independent guy. What do you think?

Josiah Thompson

I agree. I believe only two shots were fired from the sniper's nest. I would love to be able to say that the evidence suggests only two shells were found. But I can't make that leap. If the witnesses were all rehearsed to say there were three, when there were only two, then they would have gotten other bits "right", IMO. Certainly, Mooney and Alyea, who both said there were three, would not have added in that Fritz picked up the shells before Lt. Day arrived on the scene should they have been reciting a cover story.

As far as "basic facts of the assassination," there are many I don't subscribe to. I'm not convinced shots came from the knoll; in fact, I suspect they did not. But I also have strong doubts about the single-bullet theory, and Oswald's ability to hit the shots attributed to him. IMO, there are many CT myths, and LN myths. I just find debunking the LN myths--such as the myth that Kennedy's head wounds were typical, and what one would expect should a 6.5 mm FMJ buillet impact on the back of a man's head--more satisfying than I do the CT myths--such as the myths Oswald was in the doorway at the time of the shots, or was shot by Greer, or that the limo came to a complete stop, etc.

Just a thought... Since you and Lifton had this tete a tete, perhaps the two of you could make out a list of what you believe are red herrings--old or fantastical arguments that don't really stand up and amount to nothing more than a waste of time. As you two don't exactly see eye to eye on the assassination, the thought occurs that any argument rejected by BOTH of you would be something a newbie should avoid, at least initially. You could add to this list as time goes on. And other prominent researchers could be invited to add their comments to your list as time goes on.

I think such a list could be most helpful in combating the tabloidization of conspiracy research you decry.

[Mike Williams]

I find it odd that no one picked up on the OTHER glaring error in the FBI/DPD receipt...that the rifle was referred to as a LEVER action, when it is CLEARLY a BOLT action. Interesting that NEITHER the DPD nor the FBI questioned that. I'm no firearms expert by any stretch of the imagination, but any kid who's ever hunted squirrels with a .22 knows a lever action from a bolt action. Wonder how that slid past BOTH agencies?

was there a description discrepancy in the ads?

The Mannlicher-Carcano was never available as a lever-action rifle [think "cowboy rifle"]. The lever action reference, im MY mind, goes back to the earliest description of the murder weapon released over the radio, which referred to a "30 caliber rifle." The most popular 30 caliber rifle in America, at least in 1963, was the Winchester 30-30, which was a legendary lever action rifle. The military, with the exception of the old Indian-fighting days, has almost exclusively used bolt action rifles.

So obvioulsy any gun expert on the DPD knew that M-C serial number C2766 was a BOLT action rifle, and NOT a Lever action. Ditto for the FBI. So how did BOTH manage to sign off on the receipt for a lever-action rifle...effectively signing something that ALL PARTIES INVOLVED knew was NOT an accurate representation of the rifle before them, and therefore also NOT an accurate representation of the facts?

Mighty puzzling, IMHO, as these were TRAINED PROFESSIONALS here, not rank amateurs.

Mark,

In calling the weapon a .30 cal. They are basically refering to a class of weapons. In 1963 this would have included a long list of weapons. Including the M1 30-06, .308, .300 Winchester, 30-40 krag, 30-30 as you pointed out, the .30 cal carbines of WW2 paratrooper fame, and many others.

How they could have managed to call this a lever action is beyond me. Perhaps someone with limited knowledge filled out the forms. Makes no sense to me I completely agree with you there.

[Mark Knight]

Mike, I realize that as late as Friday night, the DPD hadn't ruled out OTHER "30 caliber" weapons as well...after all, they picked up Frazier's .303 Enfield, didn't they? BUT the big distinguishing feature is that the military-derived "30 calibers" are ALL bolt-action, while the "Western-style" or "cowboy" 30 calibers were almost ALL either Winchester or Marlin 30-30 LEVER actions.

That NEITHER the FBI nor the DPD caught the fact that BOTH were signing off on a receipt for a rifle that didn't exist--at least not in police custody--a LEVER action rifle with serial number C2766, seems QUITE odd. Shouldn't someone on ONE side of the table or the other have said, "WHOA--that's NOT what we have here" ?? Or are we admitting the police, who have to be able to describe a weapon a criminal might be carrying, CAN'T...even when they have it in their grubby little paws?

[Or maybe it's THEIR descendants who keep clamoring for the banning of all SEMIautomatic weapons...because they can't tell the difference between a semi and a full auto?]

Edited May 23, 2010 by Mark Knight

[John Dolva]

I can't find the post where Pat said it. Two shots, I said 1 off when saying three. I think Pat and I are sort of on the same wavelength, but prob not on a lot of stuff. I find this intriguing I actually think you are making a reasonable statement. Elsewhere I've done an uncomfirmed (ie afaik there has been no separate test of this) where when properly scaled the HSCA shows that the crimping makes it difficult to measure the circumference of the cartridge there (to look at why the expansion and discoloration appears to be different from the other two) but when calculating the area from the over head there seems to be one that has expanded less (and at a less discoloring temperature) and similarly when looking at the side on phoos the crimped one is rotated so that its lip width is the same as the others. However a cereful measurement of the area within the cartridge tips and the width of the middle base of the cartridges seem to indicate that one may not have been fired with a bullet in it : or it was perhaps resized to create a cats sneeze which does not require the same loading or cartridge tip opening (the bullet is short and not that wide, but a non silenced silent fire (developed in the Baltic)). Anyway this is an unrecognised shot which makes for shot one, then comes two and three, except that three is not three, it''s three and four, And none of them from the grassy knoll. (I'll regret this post for the rest of my life)

edit add: ok, now I get it, thats the kind that Wayne had, except for the oversize lever. Thank's for the explanation, Mark

Edited May 23, 2010 by John Dolva

[Mike Williams]

Mike, I realize that as late as Friday night, the DPD hadn't ruled out OTHER "30 caliber" weapons as well...after all, they picked up Frazier's .303 Enfield, didn't they? BUT the big distinguishing feature is that the military-derived "30 calibers" are ALL bolt-action, while the "Western-style" or "cowboy" 30 calibers were almost ALL either Winchester or Marlin 30-30 LEVER actions.

That NEITHER the FBI nor the DPD caught the fact that BOTH were signing off on a receipt for a rifle that didn't exist--at least not in police custody--a LEVER action rifle with serial number C2766, seems QUITE odd. Shouldn't someone on ONE side of the table or the other have said, "WHOA--that's NOT what we have here" ?? Or are we admitting the police, who have to be able to describe a weapon a criminal might be carrying, CAN'T...even when they have it in their grubby little paws?

[Or maybe it's THEIR descendants who keep clamoring for the banning of all SEMIautomatic weapons...because they can't tell the difference between a semi and a full auto?]

Mark,

I certainly hear ya!

Obviously with the serial number they are talking about he MC, but why anyone would refer to that as a lever gun rather than a bolt action is beyond me.

Mike

[Josiah Thompson]

[

As far as the third shell, it was never submitted to the identification bureau on 11-22. So where did it go? Even, the WC saw this as a problem... As I recall, it was eventually offered that Fritz held onto a shell for himself, so that he would know what kind of weapon to look for. Why he failed to give it to Day after the recovery of the rifle, or even the next day, after the FBI told him the rifle matched the other two shells, remains to be seen. But perhaps Fritz realized that the dented lip raised questions on whether the shell could even have held a bullet, and was holding it back until it became someone else's problem.

In Six Seconds I stated that CE 543 (the case with the dented lip) was kept by the Dallas Police and not turned over to the FBI until the next week. This, I take it Pat, is what you too are saying. I think that was a mistake on my part and that CE 543 was turned over to Vince Drain on Friday evening, November 22nd. We could pusue this further if you wish, but I wanted you to know that I think now my earlier claim was mistaken.

Josiah Thompson

[Robin Unger]

Fetzer declares: “The evidence photographs published in Noel Twyman's BLOODY TREASON (1997) show two spent casings and one unspent cartridge..”

Turning to Bloody Treason, we find that Twyman has published a muddy version of Commission Exhibit 510 along with a caption that reads: “Two Empty Cartridges: Warren Commission Exhibit showing two empty cartridges and what appears to be one live round of ammunition, circled ‘A,’ on sixth floor of the Texas School Good Depository Building.” Here it is:

The muddy character of the photo printed by Twyman is interesting. Back in 1966, I obtained a print of Commission Exhibit 510 from the Archives. Here it is:

Here now is a closeup of the what is circled and marked with an “A”:

Commission Exhibit 510 was taken by R. L. Studebaker of the Dallas Police. Apparently, the highest resolution copies were held by the Dallas Municipal Archives. Dale Myers, among others obtained close-up copies, of the cartridge case circled and marked “A.” John McAdams posted a copy on his site as part of an article and Todd Vaughan posted recently posted the article on this Forum. Here it is:

What are we seeing circled and marked with an “A” in Commission Exhibit 510? It is precisely what we’ve known all along. It is an empty cartridge case with a separate piece of debis. This is clear not only in the excellent copies of this photo held by the Dallas Municipal Archives but in the standard print I obtained from the Archives in 1967. Had Twyman used a standard print available from the Archives his argument would have died forthwith. He didn’t. We can only speculate as to why this happened. However, as Todd Vaughan points out, this “shell game” was exposed years ago only to be resurrected by Professor Fetzer this past week.

Josiah Thompson

Extra Large version.

http://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/met.../m1/1/sizes/xl/

[Josiah Thompson]

Extra Large version.

http://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/met.../m1/1/sizes/xl/

Thanks Robin. That's a real beauty.

Josiah Thompson

[Karl Kinaski]

Fetzer declares: “The evidence photographs published in Noel Twyman's BLOODY TREASON (1997) show two spent casings and one unspent cartridge..”

Turning to Bloody Treason, we find that Twyman has published a muddy version of Commission Exhibit 510 along with a caption that reads: “Two Empty Cartridges: Warren Commission Exhibit showing two empty cartridges and what appears to be one live round of ammunition, circled ‘A,’ on sixth floor of the Texas School Good Depository Building.” Here it is:

The muddy character of the photo printed by Twyman is interesting. Back in 1966, I obtained a print of Commission Exhibit 510 from the Archives. Here it is:

Here now is a closeup of the what is circled and marked with an “A”:

Commission Exhibit 510 was taken by R. L. Studebaker of the Dallas Police. Apparently, the highest resolution copies were held by the Dallas Municipal Archives. Dale Myers, among others obtained close-up copies, of the cartridge case circled and marked “A.” John McAdams posted a copy on his site as part of an article and Todd Vaughan posted recently posted the article on this Forum. Here it is:

It is an empty cartridge case with a separate piece of debis. This is clear not only in the excellent copies of this photo held by the Dallas Municipal Archives but in the sta

To me this picture shows no empty case,but an intact bullet: I can clearly see the primer, the case, and the bullet at the top...

KK

Edited May 24, 2010 by Karl Kinaski

[John Dolva]

consider the shadows

[Todd W. Vaughan]

Fetzer declares: “The evidence photographs published in Noel Twyman's BLOODY TREASON (1997) show two spent casings and one unspent cartridge..”

Turning to Bloody Treason, we find that Twyman has published a muddy version of Commission Exhibit 510 along with a caption that reads: “Two Empty Cartridges: Warren Commission Exhibit showing two empty cartridges and what appears to be one live round of ammunition, circled ‘A,’ on sixth floor of the Texas School Good Depository Building.” Here it is:

The muddy character of the photo printed by Twyman is interesting. Back in 1966, I obtained a print of Commission Exhibit 510 from the Archives. Here it is:

Here now is a closeup of the what is circled and marked with an “A”:

Commission Exhibit 510 was taken by R. L. Studebaker of the Dallas Police. Apparently, the highest resolution copies were held by the Dallas Municipal Archives. Dale Myers, among others obtained close-up copies, of the cartridge case circled and marked “A.” John McAdams posted a copy on his site as part of an article and Todd Vaughan posted recently posted the article on this Forum. Here it is:

It is an empty cartridge case with a separate piece of debis. This is clear not only in the excellent copies of this photo held by the Dallas Municipal Archives but in the sta

To me this picture shows no empty case,but an intact bullet: I can clearly see the primer, the case, and the bullet at the top...

KK

The primer and the case would be visible if the bullet was fired or unfired. That leaves you with the bullet which is clearly not there.

[Karl Kinaski]

consider the shadows

KK

[Todd W. Vaughan]

consider the shadows

KK

I don't think so. Have you ever seen a live WCC 6.5mm round?