Jump to content
The Education Forum

Captain Fritz and the spent cartridges


Recommended Posts

Captain Fritz and the spent cartridges: another look at the Alyea allegation.

Hi folks,

The subject of the spent rifle cartridges is quite topical at the moment so I thought that some of you might like to read an article I have done that looks at one aspect of this subject.

Did_Captain_William_Fritz_have_a.rtf

Edited by Tony Austin
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 35
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Captain Fritz and the spent cartridges: another look at the Alyea allegation.

Hi folks,

The subject of the spent rifle cartridges ia quite topical at the moment so I thought that some of you might like to read an article I have done that looks at one aspect of this subject.

Tony,

How could Fritz have aided Alyea within a minute of the casings being found, when he was not even on the 6th floor when they were found?

This is only one of many questions. There are some serious accuracy issues with the article, if you wish I will address them.

Mike

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Captain Fritz and the spent cartridges: another look at the Alyea allegation.

Hi folks,

The subject of the spent rifle cartridges ia quite topical at the moment so I thought that some of you might like to read an article I have done that looks at one aspect of this subject.

I've printed out your very interesting article and I look forward to reading it tonight. I don't know whether this aspect is treated in your article but I wanted you to know about it. In Six Seconds I state that CE 543 was the cartridge case kept by the Dallas Police until the following week, that CE 544 and CE 545 were picked up by Agent Vince Drain on Friday night and sent to Washington. I believe that to be a mistake. Additional evidence has persuaded me that CE 543 was one of the two cartridge cases picked up by Vincent Drain on Friday night and sent to Washington. I won't belabor you now with the reasons for this but I wanted you to know at least that the former claim was a mistake.

Josiah Thompson

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Captain Fritz and the spent cartridges: another look at the Alyea allegation.

Hi folks,

The subject of the spent rifle cartridges ia quite topical at the moment so I thought that some of you might like to read an article I have done that looks at one aspect of this subject.

Tony,

How could Fritz have aided Alyea within a minute of the casings being found, when he was not even on the 6th floor when they were found?

This is only one of many questions. There are some serious accuracy issues with the article, if you wish I will address them.

Mike

Mike

Statement of Detective B.L. Senkel (CE 2003 page 324):

"Weatheford and I entered the building and proceeded to check building from ground floor up. I got to the sixth floor about 1:10pm. The empty hulls were found at window about 1:15pm. Capt. Fritz, Dets. Sims and Boyd were present at this time."

Lee

Mooney specifically said he found the casing, looked out the window and saw Fritz and Decker on the ground. He repeated same to me in a phone interview 2 years ago.

Also of note is that Mooney says the pictures of the casings are exactly as he found them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Captain Fritz and the spent cartridges: another look at the Alyea allegation.

Hi folks,

The subject of the spent rifle cartridges ia quite topical at the moment so I thought that some of you might like to read an article I have done that looks at one aspect of this subject.

Tony,

How could Fritz have aided Alyea within a minute of the casings being found, when he was not even on the 6th floor when they were found?

This is only one of many questions. There are some serious accuracy issues with the article, if you wish I will address them.

Mike

Mike

Statement of Detective B.L. Senkel (CE 2003 page 324):

"Weatheford and I entered the building and proceeded to check building from ground floor up. I got to the sixth floor about 1:10pm. The empty hulls were found at window about 1:15pm. Capt. Fritz, Dets. Sims and Boyd were present at this time."

Lee

Mooney specifically said he found the casing, looked out the window and saw Fritz and Decker on the ground. He repeated same to me in a phone interview 2 years ago.

Also of note is that Mooney says the pictures of the casings are exactly as he found them.

Correct, Mike. Mooney makes it quite clear he was alone when he found the shells. Next upon the scene was Gerald Hill.

Mr. BELIN. When you got off the passenger elevator, what did you do?

Mr. HILL. We asked them where the stairway was to the top floor, and if this was on the fifth, we walked through---there is a little office section near the elevator. We walked over past it and through a large room to the stairway, and then went all the way as high as the stairway would take us, which would have been on seven.

In the middle of the floor on the seventh floor there was a ladder leading up into an area they called the penthouse, which was used mainly for storage.

Westphal went up this ladder, I know, and the uniformed officer went up it.

The rest of us were checking around the boxes and books.

So on file we verified that there was not anyone on the seventh floor, and we didn't find any indication that the shots had been fired from there.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. HILL. Left the uniformed officer there, and these two deputies and I went down to sixth. I started to the right side of the building.

Mr. BELIN. When you say the right side, you mean----

Mr. HILL. Well, it would have been the west side.

Mr. BELIN. All right, they moved over to the east side?

Mr. HILL. We hadn't been there but a minute until someone yelled, "Here it is," or words to that effect.

I moved over and found they had found an area where the boxes had been stacked in sort of a triangle shape with three sides over near the window.

Two small boxes with Roller books on the side of the carton were stacked near the east side of the window.

Mr. BELIN. Let's talk about which window now, sir. First of all, what side of the building? Was it on the north, east, south, or west?

Mr. HILL. It would have been on the south side near the east wall. It would have been the window on the southeast corner of the building facing south.

Mr. BELIN. Would it have been the first window next to the east wall or the second window, or what, if you remember?

Mr. HILL. As near as I can remember, it was the first window next to the east wall, but here again it is--I stayed up there such a short time that--yes, that is the one I am going to have to say it was, because as near as I can remember, that is the one it was.

Mr. BELIN. What did you see over there?

Mr. HILL. There was the boxes. The boxes were stacked in sort of a three-sided shield.

That would have concealed from general view, unless somebody specifically walked up and looked over them, anyone who was in a sitting or crouched position between them and the window. In front of this window and to the left or east corner of the window, there were two boxes, cardboard boxes that had the words "Roller books," on them.

On top of the larger stack of boxes that would have been used for concealment. there was a chicken leg bone and a paper sack which appeared to have been about the size normally used for a lunch sack. I wouldn't know what the sizes were. It was a sack, I would say extended, it would probably be 12 inches high, 10 inches long, and about 4 inches thick.

Then, on the floor near the baseboard or against the baseboard of the south wall of the building, in front of the second window, in front of the, well, we would have to say second window from the east corner, were three spent shells.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Captain Fritz and the spent cartridges: another look at the Alyea allegation.

Hi folks,

The subject of the spent rifle cartridges ia quite topical at the moment so I thought that some of you might like to read an article I have done that looks at one aspect of this subject.

Tony,

How could Fritz have aided Alyea within a minute of the casings being found, when he was not even on the 6th floor when they were found?

This is only one of many questions. There are some serious accuracy issues with the article, if you wish I will address them.

Mike

Mike

Statement of Detective B.L. Senkel (CE 2003 page 324):

"Weatheford and I entered the building and proceeded to check building from ground floor up. I got to the sixth floor about 1:10pm. The empty hulls were found at window about 1:15pm. Capt. Fritz, Dets. Sims and Boyd were present at this time."

Lee

Mooney specifically said he found the casing, looked out the window and saw Fritz and Decker on the ground. He repeated same to me in a phone interview 2 years ago.

Also of note is that Mooney says the pictures of the casings are exactly as he found them.

Correct, Mike. Mooney makes it quite clear he was alone when he found the shells. Next upon the scene was Gerald Hill.

Mr. BELIN. When you got off the passenger elevator, what did you do?

Mr. HILL. We asked them where the stairway was to the top floor, and if this was on the fifth, we walked through---there is a little office section near the elevator. We walked over past it and through a large room to the stairway, and then went all the way as high as the stairway would take us, which would have been on seven.

In the middle of the floor on the seventh floor there was a ladder leading up into an area they called the penthouse, which was used mainly for storage.

Westphal went up this ladder, I know, and the uniformed officer went up it.

The rest of us were checking around the boxes and books.

So on file we verified that there was not anyone on the seventh floor, and we didn't find any indication that the shots had been fired from there.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. HILL. Left the uniformed officer there, and these two deputies and I went down to sixth. I started to the right side of the building.

Mr. BELIN. When you say the right side, you mean----

Mr. HILL. Well, it would have been the west side.

Mr. BELIN. All right, they moved over to the east side?

Mr. HILL. We hadn't been there but a minute until someone yelled, "Here it is," or words to that effect.

I moved over and found they had found an area where the boxes had been stacked in sort of a triangle shape with three sides over near the window.

Two small boxes with Roller books on the side of the carton were stacked near the east side of the window.

Mr. BELIN. Let's talk about which window now, sir. First of all, what side of the building? Was it on the north, east, south, or west?

Mr. HILL. It would have been on the south side near the east wall. It would have been the window on the southeast corner of the building facing south.

Mr. BELIN. Would it have been the first window next to the east wall or the second window, or what, if you remember?

Mr. HILL. As near as I can remember, it was the first window next to the east wall, but here again it is--I stayed up there such a short time that--yes, that is the one I am going to have to say it was, because as near as I can remember, that is the one it was.

Mr. BELIN. What did you see over there?

Mr. HILL. There was the boxes. The boxes were stacked in sort of a three-sided shield.

That would have concealed from general view, unless somebody specifically walked up and looked over them, anyone who was in a sitting or crouched position between them and the window. In front of this window and to the left or east corner of the window, there were two boxes, cardboard boxes that had the words "Roller books," on them.

On top of the larger stack of boxes that would have been used for concealment. there was a chicken leg bone and a paper sack which appeared to have been about the size normally used for a lunch sack. I wouldn't know what the sizes were. It was a sack, I would say extended, it would probably be 12 inches high, 10 inches long, and about 4 inches thick.

Then, on the floor near the baseboard or against the baseboard of the south wall of the building, in front of the second window, in front of the, well, we would have to say second window from the east corner, were three spent shells.

Mike,

Your objection is correct that Alyea is wrong about Fitz being there in the building when the shells were found, but Alyea is right about the shells being moved before they were photographed by the crime lab officer.

You are wrong however in saying that Mooney said the shells were in the same postiion in the photographs as he found them, as TA points out:

Deputy Sheriff Mooney was the first person to see the spent cartridges on the floor and he was the man who said he saw Captain Fritz pick up the cartridges and examine them. During his testimony before the Warren Commission he was shown Commission Exhibit 510 and he told them that he thought that he remembered cartridge "B" being a little closer to cartridge "C" than it appeared to be in the photograph.

They can't be in the same position in the photos as he found them if two of them were closer. It's either one way or the other. If they were closer, then they were moved.

Also, I'd like to mention to Tony that his early references to the Dallas Police at the scene should note that most of the officers who stampeeded the crime scene were not Dallas policeman but County Sheriff's officers, including Luke Mooney, Roger Criag and the guy who found the rifle. They didn't work for Fritz or Curry but answered to Dallas Sheriff Bill Decker.

In addition, Tony offers up the options that Captain Fritz was too well trained and educated law enforcement officer to disturb the crime scene before it could be photographed, and therefore Alyea had to be mistaken or lying.

The other option isn't that the Dallas cops were buffons, but rather they intentionally disturbed the crime scene on purpose, and did so under the leadership of the top crime scene bull - Capt. Fritz. And please note that after disturbing the shells at the Sniper's Nest, checking out the rifle, requesting the shells be brought to him and getting the name of Oswald from Truly as a missing worker, Fritz goes across the street to visit his old friend Sheriff Bill Decker before going back to his office. Is there a report on what Fritz and Decker discussed at 1:30 PM that day?

Then again, maybe Fritz didn't pick up the shells before anyone photographed them, as Alyea says that he got the whole scene on film, and then fed the film out the window to someone who took it to be processed immediately. What happened to that film of the undisturbed sniper's nest and shells?

Also note that Luke Mooney and other first arrivals did oral history recordings for the Sixth Floor Oral History Project. Has anyone checked to see if they say anything more about what happened.

Bill Kelly

Edited by William Kelly
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Captain Fritz and the spent cartridges: another look at the Alyea allegation.

Hi folks,

The subject of the spent rifle cartridges ia quite topical at the moment so I thought that some of you might like to read an article I have done that looks at one aspect of this subject.

Tony,

How could Fritz have aided Alyea within a minute of the casings being found, when he was not even on the 6th floor when they were found?

This is only one of many questions. There are some serious accuracy issues with the article, if you wish I will address them.

Mike

Mike

Statement of Detective B.L. Senkel (CE 2003 page 324):

"Weatheford and I entered the building and proceeded to check building from ground floor up. I got to the sixth floor about 1:10pm. The empty hulls were found at window about 1:15pm. Capt. Fritz, Dets. Sims and Boyd were present at this time."

Lee

Mooney specifically said he found the casing, looked out the window and saw Fritz and Decker on the ground. He repeated same to me in a phone interview 2 years ago.

Also of note is that Mooney says the pictures of the casings are exactly as he found them.

Correct, Mike. Mooney makes it quite clear he was alone when he found the shells. Next upon the scene was Gerald Hill.

Mr. BELIN. When you got off the passenger elevator, what did you do?

Mr. HILL. We asked them where the stairway was to the top floor, and if this was on the fifth, we walked through---there is a little office section near the elevator. We walked over past it and through a large room to the stairway, and then went all the way as high as the stairway would take us, which would have been on seven.

In the middle of the floor on the seventh floor there was a ladder leading up into an area they called the penthouse, which was used mainly for storage.

Westphal went up this ladder, I know, and the uniformed officer went up it.

The rest of us were checking around the boxes and books.

So on file we verified that there was not anyone on the seventh floor, and we didn't find any indication that the shots had been fired from there.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. HILL. Left the uniformed officer there, and these two deputies and I went down to sixth. I started to the right side of the building.

Mr. BELIN. When you say the right side, you mean----

Mr. HILL. Well, it would have been the west side.

Mr. BELIN. All right, they moved over to the east side?

Mr. HILL. We hadn't been there but a minute until someone yelled, "Here it is," or words to that effect.

I moved over and found they had found an area where the boxes had been stacked in sort of a triangle shape with three sides over near the window.

Two small boxes with Roller books on the side of the carton were stacked near the east side of the window.

Mr. BELIN. Let's talk about which window now, sir. First of all, what side of the building? Was it on the north, east, south, or west?

Mr. HILL. It would have been on the south side near the east wall. It would have been the window on the southeast corner of the building facing south.

Mr. BELIN. Would it have been the first window next to the east wall or the second window, or what, if you remember?

Mr. HILL. As near as I can remember, it was the first window next to the east wall, but here again it is--I stayed up there such a short time that--yes, that is the one I am going to have to say it was, because as near as I can remember, that is the one it was.

Mr. BELIN. What did you see over there?

Mr. HILL. There was the boxes. The boxes were stacked in sort of a three-sided shield.

That would have concealed from general view, unless somebody specifically walked up and looked over them, anyone who was in a sitting or crouched position between them and the window. In front of this window and to the left or east corner of the window, there were two boxes, cardboard boxes that had the words "Roller books," on them.

On top of the larger stack of boxes that would have been used for concealment. there was a chicken leg bone and a paper sack which appeared to have been about the size normally used for a lunch sack. I wouldn't know what the sizes were. It was a sack, I would say extended, it would probably be 12 inches high, 10 inches long, and about 4 inches thick.

Then, on the floor near the baseboard or against the baseboard of the south wall of the building, in front of the second window, in front of the, well, we would have to say second window from the east corner, were three spent shells.

Hi

A little further on in Hill's testimony he relates how he yelled out of the window to get the crime lab - "I asked the deputies again to guard the scene and I would go down and make sure that the crime lab was en route." Hill goes on to tell about meeting Fritz coming up on the elevator "I told him what we had found . . . and told him also that I was going to make sure the crime lab was en route." 7 H 46-47. If this statement is correct - then Fritz was at the SN prior to Day and Studebaker.

In Mooney's statement he had this to say: "MR. BALL: They were the empty shells?

MR. MOONEY: Yes, sir.

MR. BALL: They were turned over to Captain Fritz?

MR. MOONEY: Yes, sir; he was the first officer that picked them up, as far as I know, because I stood there and watched him go over and pick them up and look at them. 3 H 286.

Alyea told me he had followed some of the deputies up to 7th floor.

Mooney, in his testimony had this to say: "At that time, some news reporter, or press, I don't know who he was -- he was coming up with a camera." Mooney "And then I says I am going back down on six." 3 H 284

WFFA Cameraman Alyea, Kent Biffle - Dallas Morning News Reporter, and Pierce Allman WFAA radio reporter, are the only newsmen that were in TSBD when it was sealed. (POTP, 521.

Alyea told me he asked Fritz if he could photograph the SN. Fritz said no. But when Fritz squeezed in he held the hulls over the top of the boxes so Alyea could film them. Alyea was throwing his reels down to a courier to take over to WFAA. (Tom said when he finally got back - he walked into a room and the floor was filled with little ribbons of film (he had 500 feet of film with him at TSBD) and they were gathering it up into a big barrel-like carton - they had picked out what they wanted to get on the air and trashed the rest.)

According to Fritz's affidavit 6/8/64: "Three spent rifle hulls were found under the window in the southeast corner of the 6th floor of the Texas School book Depository Building . . . .When the officers called me to this window, I asked them not to move the shells nor touch them until Lt. Day of the Dallas Police Department could make pictures of the hulls." 7 H 401-402.

Martha Moyer

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Captain Fritz and the spent cartridges: another look at the Alyea allegation.

Hi folks,

The subject of the spent rifle cartridges ia quite topical at the moment so I thought that some of you might like to read an article I have done that looks at one aspect of this subject.

Tony,

How could Fritz have aided Alyea within a minute of the casings being found, when he was not even on the 6th floor when they were found?

This is only one of many questions. There are some serious accuracy issues with the article, if you wish I will address them.

Mike

Mike,

If you look at the "Report on the officer's duties in regards to the President's murder - R.M. Sims and E.L. Boyd" in the City of Dallas Archives: JFK collection in box 3, folder 4, item 5 on the second page you find that they state that the empty hull were found about 1:15pm and that Lt Day and Detective Studebaker (the crime scene officers) arrived on the scene about 1:20pm ( see: http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box3.htm )

This fits in with Lee Farley's reference to Detective Senkel stating the spent cartridges were found at 1:15pm.

If we assume that Captain Fritz took a minute to get to the sniper's nest, then it appears that there would be 4 minutes, between 1:16pm and 1:20pm when Captain Fritz could have picked up the spent cartridges for Tom Alyea before the crime scene officers arrived. I am not aware of an evidence to show that Tom Alyea was not on the sixth floor at this time.

If you have found some serious accuracy errors in my article, please let me know what they are. I am not a JFK assassination expert, I am only a student of the assassination. If I get things wrong I would rather know about it and use the information to increase my understanding of the issues. So feel free to point out my errors.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I just remembered. In last year's Three Shots that Changed America" program, they had a snippet of the Alyea film which showed something I'd never seen before--Fritz kneeling by the westernmost cartridge and picking something up. I'd seen this footage before but it had been cropped, and you couldn't see Fritz's hands reach down between himself and the other officer and pick something up to show the other officer (Sims? Boyd?). I concluded from this that Fritz most probably picked up ONE of the shells in order to determine the caliber of the rifle they were looking for, and that Alyea over time came to recall it as this big personal moment between Fritz and himself, in which Fritz showed him all three shells.

I made a grab of this image below.

AlyeaFritzshellsfrom3shots.jpg

Perhaps someone more tech-savvy than myself can find the sequence and post it on Youtube.

And, oh yeah, there's also this.

WH_Vol17_0263a.jpg

Look out the window. This photo was supposedly taken only minutes after the Alyea film above. But there's now a big truck out the window. Does anyone know what this was? The white station wagon I believe belonged to the crime lab. But what was the truck?

Edited by Pat Speer
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Captain Fritz and the spent cartridges: another look at the Alyea allegation.

Hi folks,

The subject of the spent rifle cartridges ia quite topical at the moment so I thought that some of you might like to read an article I have done that looks at one aspect of this subject.

Tony,

How could Fritz have aided Alyea within a minute of the casings being found, when he was not even on the 6th floor when they were found?

This is only one of many questions. There are some serious accuracy issues with the article, if you wish I will address them.

Mike

Mike

Statement of Detective B.L. Senkel (CE 2003 page 324):

"Weatheford and I entered the building and proceeded to check building from ground floor up. I got to the sixth floor about 1:10pm. The empty hulls were found at window about 1:15pm. Capt. Fritz, Dets. Sims and Boyd were present at this time."

Lee

Mooney specifically said he found the casing, looked out the window and saw Fritz and Decker on the ground. He repeated same to me in a phone interview 2 years ago.

Also of note is that Mooney says the pictures of the casings are exactly as he found them.

Correct, Mike. Mooney makes it quite clear he was alone when he found the shells. Next upon the scene was Gerald Hill.

Mr. BELIN. When you got off the passenger elevator, what did you do?

Mr. HILL. We asked them where the stairway was to the top floor, and if this was on the fifth, we walked through---there is a little office section near the elevator. We walked over past it and through a large room to the stairway, and then went all the way as high as the stairway would take us, which would have been on seven.

In the middle of the floor on the seventh floor there was a ladder leading up into an area they called the penthouse, which was used mainly for storage.

Westphal went up this ladder, I know, and the uniformed officer went up it.

The rest of us were checking around the boxes and books.

So on file we verified that there was not anyone on the seventh floor, and we didn't find any indication that the shots had been fired from there.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. HILL. Left the uniformed officer there, and these two deputies and I went down to sixth. I started to the right side of the building.

Mr. BELIN. When you say the right side, you mean----

Mr. HILL. Well, it would have been the west side.

Mr. BELIN. All right, they moved over to the east side?

Mr. HILL. We hadn't been there but a minute until someone yelled, "Here it is," or words to that effect.

I moved over and found they had found an area where the boxes had been stacked in sort of a triangle shape with three sides over near the window.

Two small boxes with Roller books on the side of the carton were stacked near the east side of the window.

Mr. BELIN. Let's talk about which window now, sir. First of all, what side of the building? Was it on the north, east, south, or west?

Mr. HILL. It would have been on the south side near the east wall. It would have been the window on the southeast corner of the building facing south.

Mr. BELIN. Would it have been the first window next to the east wall or the second window, or what, if you remember?

Mr. HILL. As near as I can remember, it was the first window next to the east wall, but here again it is--I stayed up there such a short time that--yes, that is the one I am going to have to say it was, because as near as I can remember, that is the one it was.

Mr. BELIN. What did you see over there?

Mr. HILL. There was the boxes. The boxes were stacked in sort of a three-sided shield.

That would have concealed from general view, unless somebody specifically walked up and looked over them, anyone who was in a sitting or crouched position between them and the window. In front of this window and to the left or east corner of the window, there were two boxes, cardboard boxes that had the words "Roller books," on them.

On top of the larger stack of boxes that would have been used for concealment. there was a chicken leg bone and a paper sack which appeared to have been about the size normally used for a lunch sack. I wouldn't know what the sizes were. It was a sack, I would say extended, it would probably be 12 inches high, 10 inches long, and about 4 inches thick.

Then, on the floor near the baseboard or against the baseboard of the south wall of the building, in front of the second window, in front of the, well, we would have to say second window from the east corner, were three spent shells.

Mike,

Your objection is correct that Alyea is wrong about Fitz being there in the building when the shells were found, but Alyea is right about the shells being moved before they were photographed by the crime lab officer.

You are wrong however in saying that Mooney said the shells were in the same postiion in the photographs as he found them, as TA points out:

Deputy Sheriff Mooney was the first person to see the spent cartridges on the floor and he was the man who said he saw Captain Fritz pick up the cartridges and examine them. During his testimony before the Warren Commission he was shown Commission Exhibit 510 and he told them that he thought that he remembered cartridge "B" being a little closer to cartridge "C" than it appeared to be in the photograph.

They can't be in the same position in the photos as he found them if two of them were closer. It's either one way or the other. If they were closer, then they were moved.

Also, I'd like to mention to Tony that his early references to the Dallas Police at the scene should note that most of the officers who stampeeded the crime scene were not Dallas policeman but County Sheriff's officers, including Luke Mooney, Roger Criag and the guy who found the rifle. They didn't work for Fritz or Curry but answered to Dallas Sheriff Bill Decker.

In addition, Tony offers up the options that Captain Fritz was too well trained and educated law enforcement officer to disturb the crime scene before it could be photographed, and therefore Alyea had to be mistaken or lying.

The other option isn't that the Dallas cops were buffons, but rather they intentionally disturbed the crime scene on purpose, and did so under the leadership of the top crime scene bull - Capt. Fritz. And please note that after disturbing the shells at the Sniper's Nest, checking out the rifle, requesting the shells be brought to him and getting the name of Oswald from Truly as a missing worker, Fritz goes across the street to visit his old friend Sheriff Bill Decker before going back to his office. Is there a report on what Fritz and Decker discussed at 1:30 PM that day?

Then again, maybe Fritz didn't pick up the shells before anyone photographed them, as Alyea says that he got the whole scene on film, and then fed the film out the window to someone who took it to be processed immediately. What happened to that film of the undisturbed sniper's nest and shells?

Also note that Luke Mooney and other first arrivals did oral history recordings for the Sixth Floor Oral History Project. Has anyone checked to see if they say anything more about what happened.

Bill Kelly

Bill,

At the time of my talking to Mooney, I was attempting to clarify some of the things we are discussing. I asked him about the testimony issues, and his reply was quite simple. The angle of the photographs made the placement of the shells seem a bit different. He also told me that during his testimony he was shown a photo taken from a bit of a different angle, and that the shell placement did seem to be consistent with what he found.

Someone may want to contact Mooney and see if the story is the same. Just a thought. He was alive, and quite well, still living in Texas as of two years ago.

I also specifically asked him when Fritz had picked up the shells, be it before or after the photos. He told me he was unsure, but believed it was after, simply because the photos seemed to reflect what he saw when he discovered the shells.

Part of my digging into all this revolved around the fact that we know the ejection pattern of the M/C rifle. We also know the placement of the boxes in the snipers nest. This could give us some indication as to the order of shots. 1 early and 2 later as the majority of witnesses seemt o claim. Perhaps one day I will get back to that examination.

Mike

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Captain Fritz and the spent cartridges: another look at the Alyea allegation.

Hi folks,

The subject of the spent rifle cartridges ia quite topical at the moment so I thought that some of you might like to read an article I have done that looks at one aspect of this subject.

Tony,

How could Fritz have aided Alyea within a minute of the casings being found, when he was not even on the 6th floor when they were found?

This is only one of many questions. There are some serious accuracy issues with the article, if you wish I will address them.

Mike

Mike,

If you look at the "Report on the officer's duties in regards to the President's murder - R.M. Sims and E.L. Boyd" in the City of Dallas Archives: JFK collection in box 3, folder 4, item 5 on the second page you find that they state that the empty hull were found about 1:15pm and that Lt Day and Detective Studebaker (the crime scene officers) arrived on the scene about 1:20pm ( see: http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box3.htm )

This fits in with Lee Farley's reference to Detective Senkel stating the spent cartridges were found at 1:15pm.

If we assume that Captain Fritz took a minute to get to the sniper's nest, then it appears that there would be 4 minutes, between 1:16pm and 1:20pm when Captain Fritz could have picked up the spent cartridges for Tom Alyea before the crime scene officers arrived. I am not aware of an evidence to show that Tom Alyea was not on the sixth floor at this time.

If you have found some serious accuracy errors in my article, please let me know what they are. I am not a JFK assassination expert, I am only a student of the assassination. If I get things wrong I would rather know about it and use the information to increase my understanding of the issues. So feel free to point out my errors.

Tony,

If I recall correctly, the shells were discovered at 1:12PM. I believe this was the time that the crime scene guys were called to the building in regard to the shells being found. I believe one of them states as much in his testimony.

Let me have a bit of a closer read of your article, and I will post any questions I might have from there.

I am glad to see that you are one who appears to be more worried about getting it right, than being right. It is an excellent quality.

Mike

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I just remembered. In last year's Three Shots that Changed America" program, they had a snippet of the Alyea film which showed something I'd never seen before--Fritz kneeling by the westernmost cartridge and picking something up. I'd seen this footage before but it had been cropped, and you couldn't see Fritz's hands reach down between himself and the other officer and pick something up to show the other officer (Sims? Boyd?). I concluded from this that Fritz most probably picked up ONE of the shells in order to determine the caliber of the rifle they were looking for, and that Alyea over time came to recall it as this big personal moment between Fritz and himself, in which Fritz showed him all three shells.

I made a grab of this image below.

AlyeaFritzshellsfrom3shots.jpg

Perhaps someone more tech-savvy than myself can find the sequence and post it on Youtube.

And, oh yeah, there's also this.

WH_Vol17_0263a.jpg

Look out the window. This photo was supposedly taken only minutes after the Alyea film above. But there's now a big truck out the window. Does anyone know what this was? The white station wagon I believe belonged to the crime lab. But what was the truck?

Anyone know the status of this batch of film?

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...bsPageId=779491

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Captain Fritz and the spent cartridges: another look at the Alyea allegation.

Hi folks,

The subject of the spent rifle cartridges ia quite topical at the moment so I thought that some of you might like to read an article I have done that looks at one aspect of this subject.

Tony,

How could Fritz have aided Alyea within a minute of the casings being found, when he was not even on the 6th floor when they were found?

This is only one of many questions. There are some serious accuracy issues with the article, if you wish I will address them.

Mike

Mike,

If you look at the "Report on the officer's duties in regards to the President's murder - R.M. Sims and E.L. Boyd" in the City of Dallas Archives: JFK collection in box 3, folder 4, item 5 on the second page you find that they state that the empty hull were found about 1:15pm and that Lt Day and Detective Studebaker (the crime scene officers) arrived on the scene about 1:20pm ( see: http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box3.htm )

This fits in with Lee Farley's reference to Detective Senkel stating the spent cartridges were found at 1:15pm.

If we assume that Captain Fritz took a minute to get to the sniper's nest, then it appears that there would be 4 minutes, between 1:16pm and 1:20pm when Captain Fritz could have picked up the spent cartridges for Tom Alyea before the crime scene officers arrived. I am not aware of an evidence to show that Tom Alyea was not on the sixth floor at this time.

If you have found some serious accuracy errors in my article, please let me know what they are. I am not a JFK assassination expert, I am only a student of the assassination. If I get things wrong I would rather know about it and use the information to increase my understanding of the issues. So feel free to point out my errors.

T.L. Baker's report:

"Captain Fritz, Dets. Boyd and Sims and several other officers took the freight elevator and stopped on the second floor and found officers already on this floor. They also found officers on the 3rd, 4th and proceeded to the 5th floor, and made a search along the front and west windows and then went up to the 6th floor. Some of the officers got off to search this floor and Capt. Fritz, Dets. Sims and Boyd went to the 7th floor and began the search there. At 1:15PM Deputy Sheriff, Luke S. Mooney, found the empty rounds on the floor under the southeast window, and Captain Fritz was notified. He inspected the scene and placed Dets. Johnson and Montgomery in charge of the scene where the empty rounds were found to wait the arrival of Lt. Day of the Crime Lab. He then instigated a thorough search of the entire floor from east to west. At 1:20PM Lt. Day arrived and Johnson and Montgomery assisted him."

To suggest that Fritz wasn't even in the building when the shells were found is nonsense. Fritz was at the TSBD no later than 12:58PM. If Mooney claims to have seen Fritz out the window when he found the empty hulls then Luke Mooney is, unfortunately, a xxxx.

Lee

Lee,

So let me ask you, just for the sake of argument. Why would he then have to be a xxxx, could he not just be mistaken?

What good reason would he have for lying? Its ridiculous to accuse someone of this when there is no cause even for it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Captain Fritz and the spent cartridges: another look at the Alyea allegation.

Hi folks,

The subject of the spent rifle cartridges ia quite topical at the moment so I thought that some of you might like to read an article I have done that looks at one aspect of this subject.

Tony,

How could Fritz have aided Alyea within a minute of the casings being found, when he was not even on the 6th floor when they were found?

This is only one of many questions. There are some serious accuracy issues with the article, if you wish I will address them.

Mike

Mike,

If you look at the "Report on the officer's duties in regards to the President's murder - R.M. Sims and E.L. Boyd" in the City of Dallas Archives: JFK collection in box 3, folder 4, item 5 on the second page you find that they state that the empty hull were found about 1:15pm and that Lt Day and Detective Studebaker (the crime scene officers) arrived on the scene about 1:20pm ( see: http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box3.htm )

This fits in with Lee Farley's reference to Detective Senkel stating the spent cartridges were found at 1:15pm.

If we assume that Captain Fritz took a minute to get to the sniper's nest, then it appears that there would be 4 minutes, between 1:16pm and 1:20pm when Captain Fritz could have picked up the spent cartridges for Tom Alyea before the crime scene officers arrived. I am not aware of an evidence to show that Tom Alyea was not on the sixth floor at this time.

If you have found some serious accuracy errors in my article, please let me know what they are. I am not a JFK assassination expert, I am only a student of the assassination. If I get things wrong I would rather know about it and use the information to increase my understanding of the issues. So feel free to point out my errors.

T.L. Baker's report:

"Captain Fritz, Dets. Boyd and Sims and several other officers took the freight elevator and stopped on the second floor and found officers already on this floor. They also found officers on the 3rd, 4th and proceeded to the 5th floor, and made a search along the front and west windows and then went up to the 6th floor. Some of the officers got off to search this floor and Capt. Fritz, Dets. Sims and Boyd went to the 7th floor and began the search there. At 1:15PM Deputy Sheriff, Luke S. Mooney, found the empty rounds on the floor under the southeast window, and Captain Fritz was notified. He inspected the scene and placed Dets. Johnson and Montgomery in charge of the scene where the empty rounds were found to wait the arrival of Lt. Day of the Crime Lab. He then instigated a thorough search of the entire floor from east to west. At 1:20PM Lt. Day arrived and Johnson and Montgomery assisted him."

To suggest that Fritz wasn't even in the building when the shells were found is nonsense. Fritz was at the TSBD no later than 12:58PM. If Mooney claims to have seen Fritz out the window when he found the empty hulls then Luke Mooney is, unfortunately, a xxxx.

Lee

Lee,

So let me ask you, just for the sake of argument. Why would he then have to be a xxxx, could he not just be mistaken?

What good reason would he have for lying? Its ridiculous to accuse someone of this when there is no cause even for it.

Okay Mike. You and Martin are right. He MAY have been mistaken. I should have said IMO he lied.

However, you were the one that called him 2 years ago and he was promoting this "mistake." And, if you'd have done your homework you could have put him straight on the matter couldn't you? Instead, you hadn't done your homework and now you are promoting this mistake as a "fact" as well.

As far as asking me "what good reason he would have for lying?" Why are you asking me? For the life of me I don't know why anyone from the DPD lied over the course of that weekend and beyond, but you know what?

They did...

Lee,

I still wonder if in fact Fritz was in the building when the casings were found. Really though it was needless to the original point. Alyea was not on the sixth floor when the casings were found, as he claimed to have been.

I would wonder why Mooney says he saw Fritz on the ground if in fact Fritz was in the building?

he stated that in his WC testimony, and in the call with me two years ago. Is it possible he is mistaken, sure it is. Is it just as possible others are, of course.

I just refuse to put a sinister turn on something causing a mistake to be called a lie, until there is an intention placed on it. If it is made to intentionally mislead then by all means, but to what end would this lie serve purpose? None None at all. If he was incorrect, and he may well be, it certainly does not mean he lied intentionally.

As for my doing my homework, What I was examining had little to do with where Fritz was, or was not. I simply asked for and received clarification about the placement of the casings.

Had you done your homework, as I said you would realize that Alyea was mistaken about being on the 6th when the casings were found, which was the whole point I was making.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...