Lifton attacks Fetzer over 9/11 and Israeli complicity

[Evan Burton]

One wonders if this thread should be open at all!

[John Simkin]

One of the definitions of "inchohate" is "lacking structure, order, or organization."

As currently laid out, this thread is inchohate.

In early June (2010), Jim Fetzer posted a memo I had written, expressing my own surprise (and, yes, amazement) at his involvement in Websites that I believed were promulgating an anti-Semitic message--specifically, that Israel, and certain specific American Jews were behind the 9/11 attacks.

The thread grew and grew (and sometimes wandered all over the place, including such matters as whether or not I owed Fetzer money, etc etc) but at least the beginning was there. And there was some logical connection between one point and the next.

And, I might add, the thread had thousands and thousands of views, as people saw for themselves how Fetzer responded to criticism, and just what his beliefs really were.

I had written a critique, Fetzer replied, and matters proceeded from there.

But now, everything has changed, and there is no logical connection between the title of this thread, and its content. Apparently, the editors have come along and--attempting to remove what they deemed to be irrelevant material--have shifted many of the posts and sub-arguments to other threads.

But in doing so, they have lost the internal logic of the entire thread.

What this thread was really all about was whether or not a person who held the bizarre beliefs of Professor Fetzer (in the area of 9/11, and whether or not we went to the moon, etc.) could be a credible spokesman for the JFK research movement. That was the connection, the nexus, but now all that is gone.

What has happened, because of editing, is that the baby has been thrown out with the bath water.

Somehow, the original posting of mine --addressing Fetzer's credibility-- and Fetzer's original objections (defending his credibility, and opposing my arguments) have been completely lopped off.

So now what do we have? A real mess. The beginning of what was a serious matter has vanished, so there is no logical antecedent to what the fuss was all about, yet the title remains!

Just consider how this thread now starts--and with a post (from John Dolva) that is repeated at the top of every page, a post in which Dolva was responding to what I had written: "Jim [Fetzer] shows his true colours. I'm not surprised at all except for the fact that he has finally done so. I wont be surprised by what's to come."

Anyone reading this thread has to ask: what the heck is Mr. Dolva talking about? And the reason for the puzzlement is that my entire original critique (of Fetzer) is gone.

Let me repeat what I have just said: What remains is a title bearing my name ("Lifton Attacks Fetzer over 9/11 and Israeli complicity") but completely gone is my original post (i.e., my so-called "attack"). The result is so muddled that its not even clear what the (original) fuss was all about.

I think the moderators and editors should reexamine this matter, rethink their edits, and--at least to some extent--press the "reset" button (as they say).

Either restore my original critique of Fetzer's antics, or (if that is not going to be done) then please remove my name from this thread.

If this thread is to bear the title "Lifton attacks fetzer over 9/11 and Israeli complicity", then at least leave my original critique. If, for any reason, the original critique is not deemed relevant, then please remove my name entirely from the title of this thread.

And what about Josiah Thompson's posts, defending my position, and the impropriety of Fetzer posting records of cancelled checks. His posts--which surely took time to compose and write--are now left out there hanging in cyberspace, with no logical connection to what (once) preceded it.

Please editors:

As currently edited, the content of this thread bears little, if any, relationship to the the title. So the result is a mish-mash which is completely illogical--and, as I said in my opening sentence, this thread, as currently structured, is "inchohate."

I do request that, if my original critique is to be deleted, then the title be changed.

If those reading this thread want to debate matters concerning the Six Day War, the attack on the Liberty, the legitimacy of Israel, the Palestinians, etc etc--by all means do so, those are all issues worthy of discussion; but then take my name off the title. I think that is a reasonable request.

And by the way: as currently structured, this thread has little to do with the Kennedy assassination--and isn't that what this discussion group is all about? (or was supposed to be all about?)

Thank you.

DSL

David, you make a series of good points. I am not sure if it is possible to restore the posts that have been deleted. Maybe Evan can answer that question. If not, would the best way forward be to delete this thread and for you to start another?

[Evan Burton]

I don't think any posts have been deleted, but would have to review the thread. It has gone on for so long I cannot say for certain what has happened. I would imagine that most missing posts have been made invisible rather than deleted. I know I rarely delete any posts; if need be I make them invisible. That allows other mods to determine if I have made the correct decision (and correct it).

[John Dolva]

Lol,

I've had almost no interest whatsoever with this topic. . How come it's mine now?

OK, It's ''mine''.

I ask the moderators to delete the whole lot or move it from the JFK section.

At once!

[John Dolva]

But then again, this phenomenomenon is a bit amusing so why not make the w/ best of it. Could the Topic name also be changed, please.

I'd like : ''How to make enemies without really trying''

[John Dolva]

ok I think I get it. When posts were deleted mine rose to the top and the topic auto became mine.

Ok I stand by what I said. I support David 100% on this issue and consider jim a few short of a six pack.

There.

[Evan Burton]

I've restored the posts that were made invisible (3 of them).

If posts still appear to be missing, please check on this or this thread to see if they were moved.

[Josiah Thompson]

One of the definitions of "inchohate" is "lacking structure, order, or organization."

As currently laid out, this thread is inchohate.

In early June (2010), Jim Fetzer posted a memo I had written, expressing my own surprise (and, yes, amazement) at his involvement in Websites that I believed were promulgating an anti-Semitic message--specifically, that Israel, and certain specific American Jews were behind the 9/11 attacks.

The thread grew and grew (and sometimes wandered all over the place, including such matters as whether or not I owed Fetzer money, etc etc) but at least the beginning was there. And there was some logical connection between one point and the next.

And, I might add, the thread had thousands and thousands of views, as people saw for themselves how Fetzer responded to criticism, and just what his beliefs really were.

I had written a critique, Fetzer replied, and matters proceeded from there.

But now, everything has changed, and there is no logical connection between the title of this thread, and its content. Apparently, the editors have come along and--attempting to remove what they deemed to be irrelevant material--have shifted many of the posts and sub-arguments to other threads.

But in doing so, they have lost the internal logic of the entire thread.

What this thread was really all about was whether or not a person who held the bizarre beliefs of Professor Fetzer (in the area of 9/11, and whether or not we went to the moon, etc.) could be a credible spokesman for the JFK research movement. That was the connection, the nexus, but now all that is gone.

What has happened, because of editing, is that the baby has been thrown out with the bath water.

Somehow, the original posting of mine --addressing Fetzer's credibility-- and Fetzer's original objections (defending his credibility, and opposing my arguments) have been completely lopped off.

So now what do we have? A real mess. The beginning of what was a serious matter has vanished, so there is no logical antecedent to what the fuss was all about, yet the title remains!

Just consider how this thread now starts--and with a post (from John Dolva) that is repeated at the top of every page, a post in which Dolva was responding to what I had written: "Jim [Fetzer] shows his true colours. I'm not surprised at all except for the fact that he has finally done so. I wont be surprised by what's to come."

Anyone reading this thread has to ask: what the heck is Mr. Dolva talking about? And the reason for the puzzlement is that my entire original critique (of Fetzer) is gone.

Let me repeat what I have just said: What remains is a title bearing my name ("Lifton Attacks Fetzer over 9/11 and Israeli complicity") but completely gone is my original post (i.e., my so-called "attack"). The result is so muddled that its not even clear what the (original) fuss was all about.

I think the moderators and editors should reexamine this matter, rethink their edits, and--at least to some extent--press the "reset" button (as they say).

Either restore my original critique of Fetzer's antics, or (if that is not going to be done) then please remove my name from this thread.

If this thread is to bear the title "Lifton attacks fetzer over 9/11 and Israeli complicity", then at least leave my original critique. If, for any reason, the original critique is not deemed relevant, then please remove my name entirely from the title of this thread.

And what about Josiah Thompson's posts, defending my position, and the impropriety of Fetzer posting records of cancelled checks. His posts--which surely took time to compose and write--are now left out there hanging in cyberspace, with no logical connection to what (once) preceded it.

Please editors:

As currently edited, the content of this thread bears little, if any, relationship to the the title. So the result is a mish-mash which is completely illogical--and, as I said in my opening sentence, this thread, as currently structured, is "inchohate."

I do request that, if my original critique is to be deleted, then the title be changed.

If those reading this thread want to debate matters concerning the Six Day War, the attack on the Liberty, the legitimacy of Israel, the Palestinians, etc etc--by all means do so, those are all issues worthy of discussion; but then take my name off the title. I think that is a reasonable request.

And by the way: as currently structured, this thread has little to do with the Kennedy assassination--and isn't that what this discussion group is all about? (or was supposed to be all about?)

Thank you.

DSL

This is all very bizarre, David. The posts could only have been removed by someone with the power to do that and I would guess there are only a few people who have that power. Hence, it is truly bizarre that the removal remains right now a mystery. I guess my posts in support of you bit the dust with the rest.

My bet is that this is no conspiracy but just a screw-up of some sort. I found the thread truly revealing about Fetzer... not only his affinity for anti-Semites and weirdos, but his hilarious attempt to say you owed him money when he studiously avoided living up to the terms of the business deal you and he had. I'm still wondering how he managed to fill out his tax returns for years without any idea what his royalties from Open Court were.

JT

[Evan Burton]

Did you check the other threads to see if they were there?

[Evan Burton]

Are these the posts?

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=16139&view=findpost&p=194650

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=16139&view=findpost&p=194567

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=16139&view=findpost&p=194526

[John Dolva]

I really don't mind, but I don't think it's fair to attribute this thread to me. I still see me listed as the starter of the thread on the page, but I'm not. It's a mistrepresenatation and a bit ridiculous. Don't the persons concerned feel this way as well?

[Martin Hinrichs]

I really don't mind, but I don't think it's fair to attribute this thread to me. I still see me listed as the starter of the thread on the page, but I'm not. It's a mistrepresenatation and a bit ridiculous. Don't the persons concerned feel this way as well?

I agree. John is not responsible for that thread. It was Jim Fetzer.

The initial posting is lost. It contains veritable informations which are important.

I considered to make a posting. But now it's difficult cause many postings are lost.

I want to ask Jim a couple of questions but first i needed an education lesson on some issues, which

i have accomplished already...almost.

Thanks

Martin

[Josiah Thompson]

Are these the posts?

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=16139&view=findpost&p=194650

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=16139&view=findpost&p=194567

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=16139&view=findpost&p=194526

Thanks Evan. I guess these are some of the posts and maybe all of them. I just don't remember. Is there anyway to reconstitute the thread as it was? If so, that might be the best way to go. If not, nothing great is lost. I'm confident Fetzer will reappear and let us have a look again at his CV and his razor sharp mind.

JT

[Evan Burton]

Well, yes it can be done... but that means dragging 9-11 and Apollo posts back into the JFK section, and I am loathe to do that.

John - I'll see what I can do.

[John Dolva]

Evan, thank you.