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Lifton attacks Fetzer over 9/11 and Israeli complicity


Guest James H. Fetzer
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Great god, what a nutcase.

That was obviously a mistake, just as when soldiers are killed by friendly fire. Israel paid over three million dollars to the families of the American men who died in that attack.

Why would Israel deliberately attack their greatest ally and supporter? That would be suicidal.

I keep thinking that someday you will write something that makes a tiny bit of sense, but I guess I need to be a lot more patient.

Robert Harris

You seem to be referring to the USS Liberty incident; it was already widely discussed in a 10 page. If you think you have anything new to add that would be the place.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=9846&view=findpost&p=107418&hl=liberty&fromsearch=1

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Interview with Tito Howard director of the film "Lost Liberty" that deals with Israels unprovoked attack on USS Liberty.

http://asx.ljcentral.net/wms/eir/tls/2003/tls030329_en_hi.asx

Edited by Terry Mauro
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Interview with Tito Howard director of the film "Lost Liberty" that deals with Israels unprovoked attack on USS Liberty.

http://asx.ljcentral.net/wms/eir/tls/2003/tls030329_en_hi.asx

The keys to understanding the Liberty incident (as I recall them).

1. Israel was at war.

2. The Liberty was near a hot spot in the war.

3. The Israelis were on the look-out for Egyptian ships.

4. The Liberty did not resemble the Egyptian ships they were looking for, and was not traveling at a speed or in a direction where Israel would be immediately threatened.

5. Israel attacked the ship anyhow. It was flying its U.S. flag. It was in waters that were technically international waters.

Now, this, so far, makes it look like Israel knowingly attacked the U.S. Some have proposed that Israel thought the Liberty was providing info to the Egyptians, and attacked out of what they perceived was their self-defense. But the rest of the story suggests that, yes indeed, it was a case of mistaken identity.

6. Once the Liberty was crippled, the Israelis moved in to sink the ship. They stopped, however, and instead contacted the ship and offered help. This suggests that they suddenly realized they were attacking Americans. They've stuck by this story ever since.

Now, while some refuse to believe the Israelis could be so incompetent that they'd attack a ship that they hadn't properly identified, this is ISRAEL we're talking about...a tiny country, always fearful of attack, always willing to kill a hundred civilians of their perceived enemy to save one of their own...OF COURSE they would attack a ship that they hadn't properly identified!

That a couple of Israeli yahoos jumped the gun sure makes a lot more sense to me than that Israel would attack a U.S. spy ship for some unknown reason...and then FAIL to finish the job...

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Interview with Tito Howard director of the film "Lost Liberty" that deals with Israels unprovoked attack on USS Liberty.

http://asx.ljcentral.net/wms/eir/tls/2003/tls030329_en_hi.asx

The keys to understanding the Liberty incident (as I recall them).

1. Israel was at war.

2. The Liberty was near a hot spot in the war.

3. The Israelis were on the look-out for Egyptian ships.

4. The Liberty did not resemble the Egyptian ships they were looking for, and was not traveling at a speed or in a direction where Israel would be immediately threatened.

5. Israel attacked the ship anyhow. It was flying its U.S. flag. It was in waters that were technically international waters.

Now, this, so far, makes it look like Israel knowingly attacked the U.S. Some have proposed that Israel thought the Liberty was providing info to the Egyptians, and attacked out of what they perceived was their self-defense. But the rest of the story suggests that, yes indeed, it was a case of mistaken identity.

6. Once the Liberty was crippled, the Israelis moved in to sink the ship. They stopped, however, and instead contacted the ship and offered help. This suggests that they suddenly realized they were attacking Americans. They've stuck by this story ever since.

Now, while some refuse to believe the Israelis could be so incompetent that they'd attack a ship that they hadn't properly identified, this is ISRAEL we're talking about...a tiny country, always fearful of attack, always willing to kill a hundred civilians of their perceived enemy to save one of their own...OF COURSE they would attack a ship that they hadn't properly identified!

That a couple of Israeli yahoos jumped the gun sure makes a lot more sense to me than that Israel would attack a U.S. spy ship for some unknown reason...and then FAIL to finish the job...

One of the things Tito Howard mentioned during his interview was that Israel "jammed" all 5 American emergency channels".

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Guest James H. Fetzer

Pat Speer and Robert Harris should read WHAT I SAW THAT DAY

by Phillip F. Tourney and Mark Glenn. I have interviewed Glenn on

"The Real Deal". It was a deliberate attack that was going to be

blamed on the Egyptians, so the US could weigh in on the side of

Israel. What went wrong is the ship did not sink. Does no one on

this forum do research? The Israeli pilots recognized the US flag

and notified their control that it was an American ship. They were

ordered to attack it and sink it anyway, which included, by the way,

strafing the life rafts, which is a war crime, if Pat and Robert want

to check it. On this forum, no one does research. James Petras, of

course, is a recognized authority on "Israeli War Crimes: From the

U.S. Liberty to the Humanitarian Flotilla". This is just a bit too much.

Interview with Tito Howard director of the film "Lost Liberty" that deals with Israels unprovoked attack on USS Liberty.

http://asx.ljcentral.net/wms/eir/tls/2003/tls030329_en_hi.asx

The keys to understanding the Liberty incident (as I recall them).

1. Israel was at war.

2. The Liberty was near a hot spot in the war.

3. The Israelis were on the look-out for Egyptian ships.

4. The Liberty did not resemble the Egyptian ships they were looking for, and was not traveling at a speed or in a direction where Israel would be immediately threatened.

5. Israel attacked the ship anyhow. It was flying its U.S. flag. It was in waters that were technically international waters.

Now, this, so far, makes it look like Israel knowingly attacked the U.S. Some have proposed that Israel thought the Liberty was providing info to the Egyptians, and attacked out of what they perceived was their self-defense. But the rest of the story suggests that, yes indeed, it was a case of mistaken identity.

6. Once the Liberty was crippled, the Israelis moved in to sink the ship. They stopped, however, and instead contacted the ship and offered help. This suggests that they suddenly realized they were attacking Americans. They've stuck by this story ever since.

Now, while some refuse to believe the Israelis could be so incompetent that they'd attack a ship that they hadn't properly identified, this is ISRAEL we're talking about...a tiny country, always fearful of attack, always willing to kill a hundred civilians of their perceived enemy to save one of their own...OF COURSE they would attack a ship that they hadn't properly identified!

That a couple of Israeli yahoos jumped the gun sure makes a lot more sense to me than that Israel would attack a U.S. spy ship for some unknown reason...and then FAIL to finish the job...

One of the things Tito Howard mentioned during his interview was that Israel "jammed" all 5 American emergency channels".

Edited by James H. Fetzer
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Pat Speer and Robert Harris should read WHAT I SAW THAT DAY

by Phillip F. Tourney and Mark Glenn. I have interviewed Glenn on

"The Real Deal". It was a deliberate attack that was going to be

blamed on the Egyptians, so the US could weigh in on the side of

Israel. What went wrong is the ship did not sink. Does no one on

this forum do research? The Israeli pilots recognized the US flag

and notified their control that it was an American ship. They were

ordered to attack it and sink it anyway, which included, by the way,

strafing the life rafts, which is a war crime, if Pat and Robert want

to check it. On this forum, no one does research. James Petras, of

course, is a recognized authority on "Israeli War Crimes: From the

U.S. Liberty to the Humanitarian Flotilla". This is just a bit too much.

Interview with Tito Howard director of the film "Lost Liberty" that deals with Israels unprovoked attack on USS Liberty.

http://asx.ljcentral.net/wms/eir/tls/2003/tls030329_en_hi.asx

The keys to understanding the Liberty incident (as I recall them).

1. Israel was at war.

2. The Liberty was near a hot spot in the war.

3. The Israelis were on the look-out for Egyptian ships.

4. The Liberty did not resemble the Egyptian ships they were looking for, and was not traveling at a speed or in a direction where Israel would be immediately threatened.

5. Israel attacked the ship anyhow. It was flying its U.S. flag. It was in waters that were technically international waters.

Now, this, so far, makes it look like Israel knowingly attacked the U.S. Some have proposed that Israel thought the Liberty was providing info to the Egyptians, and attacked out of what they perceived was their self-defense. But the rest of the story suggests that, yes indeed, it was a case of mistaken identity.

6. Once the Liberty was crippled, the Israelis moved in to sink the ship. They stopped, however, and instead contacted the ship and offered help. This suggests that they suddenly realized they were attacking Americans. They've stuck by this story ever since.

Now, while some refuse to believe the Israelis could be so incompetent that they'd attack a ship that they hadn't properly identified, this is ISRAEL we're talking about...a tiny country, always fearful of attack, always willing to kill a hundred civilians of their perceived enemy to save one of their own...OF COURSE they would attack a ship that they hadn't properly identified!

That a couple of Israeli yahoos jumped the gun sure makes a lot more sense to me than that Israel would attack a U.S. spy ship for some unknown reason...and then FAIL to finish the job...

One of the things Tito Howard mentioned during his interview was that Israel "jammed" all 5 American emergency channels".

You missed point number 6, Jim. The problem wasn't that the ship didn't sink. The FACT is that the Israelis decided not to sink the ship. I've read a fair-minded book on the incident written by one of the Liberty's survivors, still angry over the way the incident was handled. It is basically a conspiracy book. And I've looked through the more recent Attack on the Liberty, which concludes the Israelis attacked by mistake. Both books agree on a key point: the Liberty was helpless; its lifeboats had been shot up, etc, and its sailors were just waiting for the end. But instead of sinking the ship, the Israelis stopped firing and offered help. This suggests that they realized they'd made a mistake.

If they were trying to blame the Egyptians, after all, they would have made sure there were no survivors...

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Pat Speer and Robert Harris should read WHAT I SAW THAT DAY

by Phillip F. Tourney and Mark Glenn. I have interviewed Glenn on

"The Real Deal". It was a deliberate attack that was going to be

blamed on the Egyptians,

Evidence?

so the US could weigh in on the side of Israel.

As if they need any help at that point

What went wrong is the ship did not sink.

Why did the Israeli patrol boats only fire their torpedoes after the Liberty fired on them? Why weren’t the Israeli fighters carrying anti-ship munitions?

The Israeli pilots recognized the US flag and notified their control that it was an American ship. They were

ordered to attack it and sink it anyway,

BS – find a credible citation in support of this claim

which included, by the way, strafing the life rafts, which is a war crime,

According to the witness who made this claim the raft was empty and floating away from the Liberty in the director of one of the patrol boats.

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Okay, we'll be separating the 9-11 related posts into a separate thread on the Political Conspiracies sub-forum. We'll try to make sure that only 9-11 specific posts get moved; if there is a relationship to JFK (despite their being 9-11 content) we'll leave it here. If people believe a post should be moved, then please use the 'Report Post' function and we'll consider it.

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Guest James H. Fetzer

This attack was deliberate and premeditated. I worry about you,

Pat. If you can't sort out a simple case like this one, how in the

world could you sort out the more complicated cases like JFK and

9/11? I have given you several sources, which you appear to be

neglecting. Try WHAT I SAW THAT DAY and listen to my interview

with Mark Glenn, who turns out to be quite a brilliant fellow. I have

even observed that THEY STRAFED THE LIFE RAFTS, which, as

I note, is A WAR CRIME. I can't wait to hear your apology for that,

too. You really need to learn how to think things though, because

what you are saying here is incredible on its face to anyone who

has an understanding of what actually took place--a vicious attack

which revisionists and apologists desperately want to "cover up"!

Pat Speer and Robert Harris should read WHAT I SAW THAT DAY

by Phillip F. Tourney and Mark Glenn. I have interviewed Glenn on

"The Real Deal". It was a deliberate attack that was going to be

blamed on the Egyptians, so the US could weigh in on the side of

Israel. What went wrong is the ship did not sink. Does no one on

this forum do research? The Israeli pilots recognized the US flag

and notified their control that it was an American ship. They were

ordered to attack it and sink it anyway, which included, by the way,

strafing the life rafts, which is a war crime, if Pat and Robert want

to check it. On this forum, no one does research. James Petras, of

course, is a recognized authority on "Israeli War Crimes: From the

U.S. Liberty to the Humanitarian Flotilla". This is just a bit too much.

Interview with Tito Howard director of the film "Lost Liberty" that deals with Israels unprovoked attack on USS Liberty.

http://asx.ljcentral.net/wms/eir/tls/2003/tls030329_en_hi.asx

The keys to understanding the Liberty incident (as I recall them).

1. Israel was at war.

2. The Liberty was near a hot spot in the war.

3. The Israelis were on the look-out for Egyptian ships.

4. The Liberty did not resemble the Egyptian ships they were looking for, and was not traveling at a speed or in a direction where Israel would be immediately threatened.

5. Israel attacked the ship anyhow. It was flying its U.S. flag. It was in waters that were technically international waters.

Now, this, so far, makes it look like Israel knowingly attacked the U.S. Some have proposed that Israel thought the Liberty was providing info to the Egyptians, and attacked out of what they perceived was their self-defense. But the rest of the story suggests that, yes indeed, it was a case of mistaken identity.

6. Once the Liberty was crippled, the Israelis moved in to sink the ship. They stopped, however, and instead contacted the ship and offered help. This suggests that they suddenly realized they were attacking Americans. They've stuck by this story ever since.

Now, while some refuse to believe the Israelis could be so incompetent that they'd attack a ship that they hadn't properly identified, this is ISRAEL we're talking about...a tiny country, always fearful of attack, always willing to kill a hundred civilians of their perceived enemy to save one of their own...OF COURSE they would attack a ship that they hadn't properly identified!

That a couple of Israeli yahoos jumped the gun sure makes a lot more sense to me than that Israel would attack a U.S. spy ship for some unknown reason...and then FAIL to finish the job...

One of the things Tito Howard mentioned during his interview was that Israel "jammed" all 5 American emergency channels".

You missed point number 6, Jim. The problem wasn't that the ship didn't sink. The FACT is that the Israelis decided not to sink the ship. I've read a fair-minded book on the incident written by one of the Liberty's survivors, still angry over the way the incident was handled. It is basically a conspiracy book. And I've looked through the more recent Attack on the Liberty, which concludes the Israelis attacked by mistake. Both books agree on a key point: the Liberty was helpless; its lifeboats had been shot up, etc, and its sailors were just waiting for the end. But instead of sinking the ship, the Israelis stopped firing and offered help. This suggests that they realized they'd made a mistake.

If they were trying to blame the Egyptians, after all, they would have made sure there were no survivors...

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This attack was deliberate and premeditated. I worry about you,

Pat. If you can't sort out a simple case like this one, how in the

world could you sort out the more complicated cases like JFK and

9/11? I have given you several sources, which you appear to be

neglecting. Try WHAT I SAW THAT DAY and listen to my interview

with Mark Glenn, who turns out to be quite a brilliant fellow. I have

even observed that THEY STRAFED THE LIFE RAFTS, which, as

I note, is A WAR CRIME.

Clearly promoting his agenda is more important to Fetzer than verifying his claims. Only three crew members claim to have seen life rafts getting shot and only said this decades after the fact.

Lt. Painter said recently he “personally observed an Israeli MTB methodically machine gun ONE of the Liberty's EMPTY life rafts THAT HAD BEEN CUT LOOSE and was floating in the water”. Painter claims that he testified about this at the inquiry but that this was exercised from the transcript and report however he was not quoted as saying anything about it in the 1984 book Assault on the Liberty. In the inquiry transcript he said that he gave orders to “knock most of [the unusable life rafts] over the side”.

Glenn Oliphant, never claimed to have said anything about this at the time but a few years ago claimed to have seen “three life rafts floating in the water, I would say about 150 yards behind the ship” getting shot.

In Assault on the Liberty Thomas Smith claimed that he inflated three of the few usable life rafts and tied them to the side and these were the ones shot by the Israelis but this was contradicted by Painter and Oliphant.

Thus the shooting of the life rafts is not confirmed though probably at least one and perhaps up to three were shot. But based on 2 of the 3 witness accounts the rafts were far from the Liberty and floating away and might well have been unusable even if they had been tethered to the ship.

The text of Assault on the Liberty is available from Amazon through the “Look Inside” feature (registration required) see pages 94 - 6: http://www.amazon.com/Assault-Liberty-James-Ennes-Jr/dp/0972311602

Citations for the rest and more details here:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=9846&view=findpost&p=107098

I can't wait to hear your apology for that,

too. You really need to learn how to think things though, because

what you are saying here is incredible on its face to anyone who

has an understanding of what actually took place--a vicious attack

which revisionists and apologists desperately want to "cover up"!

Fetzer has a skewed understanding of the word "revisionist" every official investigation concluded it was a case of mistaken identity.

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This attack was deliberate and premeditated. I worry about you,

Pat. If you can't sort out a simple case like this one, how in the

world could you sort out the more complicated cases like JFK and

9/11? I have given you several sources, which you appear to be

neglecting. Try WHAT I SAW THAT DAY and listen to my interview

with Mark Glenn, who turns out to be quite a brilliant fellow. I have

even observed that THEY STRAFED THE LIFE RAFTS, which, as

I note, is A WAR CRIME. I can't wait to hear your apology for that,

too. You really need to learn how to think things though, because

what you are saying here is incredible on its face to anyone who

has an understanding of what actually took place--a vicious attack

which revisionists and apologists desperately want to "cover up"!

Pat Speer and Robert Harris should read WHAT I SAW THAT DAY

by Phillip F. Tourney and Mark Glenn. I have interviewed Glenn on

"The Real Deal". It was a deliberate attack that was going to be

blamed on the Egyptians, so the US could weigh in on the side of

Israel. What went wrong is the ship did not sink. Does no one on

this forum do research? The Israeli pilots recognized the US flag

and notified their control that it was an American ship. They were

ordered to attack it and sink it anyway, which included, by the way,

strafing the life rafts, which is a war crime, if Pat and Robert want

to check it. On this forum, no one does research. James Petras, of

course, is a recognized authority on "Israeli War Crimes: From the

U.S. Liberty to the Humanitarian Flotilla". This is just a bit too much.

Interview with Tito Howard director of the film "Lost Liberty" that deals with Israels unprovoked attack on USS Liberty.

http://asx.ljcentral.net/wms/eir/tls/2003/tls030329_en_hi.asx

The keys to understanding the Liberty incident (as I recall them).

1. Israel was at war.

2. The Liberty was near a hot spot in the war.

3. The Israelis were on the look-out for Egyptian ships.

4. The Liberty did not resemble the Egyptian ships they were looking for, and was not traveling at a speed or in a direction where Israel would be immediately threatened.

5. Israel attacked the ship anyhow. It was flying its U.S. flag. It was in waters that were technically international waters.

Now, this, so far, makes it look like Israel knowingly attacked the U.S. Some have proposed that Israel thought the Liberty was providing info to the Egyptians, and attacked out of what they perceived was their self-defense. But the rest of the story suggests that, yes indeed, it was a case of mistaken identity.

6. Once the Liberty was crippled, the Israelis moved in to sink the ship. They stopped, however, and instead contacted the ship and offered help. This suggests that they suddenly realized they were attacking Americans. They've stuck by this story ever since.

Now, while some refuse to believe the Israelis could be so incompetent that they'd attack a ship that they hadn't properly identified, this is ISRAEL we're talking about...a tiny country, always fearful of attack, always willing to kill a hundred civilians of their perceived enemy to save one of their own...OF COURSE they would attack a ship that they hadn't properly identified!

That a couple of Israeli yahoos jumped the gun sure makes a lot more sense to me than that Israel would attack a U.S. spy ship for some unknown reason...and then FAIL to finish the job...

One of the things Tito Howard mentioned during his interview was that Israel "jammed" all 5 American emergency channels".

You missed point number 6, Jim. The problem wasn't that the ship didn't sink. The FACT is that the Israelis decided not to sink the ship. I've read a fair-minded book on the incident written by one of the Liberty's survivors, still angry over the way the incident was handled. It is basically a conspiracy book. And I've looked through the more recent Attack on the Liberty, which concludes the Israelis attacked by mistake. Both books agree on a key point: the Liberty was helpless; its lifeboats had been shot up, etc, and its sailors were just waiting for the end. But instead of sinking the ship, the Israelis stopped firing and offered help. This suggests that they realized they'd made a mistake.

If they were trying to blame the Egyptians, after all, they would have made sure there were no survivors...

Jim, you mistakenly think I'm trying to "cover up" the crime. This is not true. The facts as I came to understand them are that Israel--with blatant disregard for human decency--attacked a ship that not only had not attacked them, but was in international waters. They did this, from all appearances, while assuming the ship to be an Egyptian ship...even though the ship's size, speed, and profile matched no ships known to them. In other words, it was a horrible and unjustified mistake, driven by Israel's MO of shooting first and asking questions later.

In light of this fact, it is not surprising that they fired on the life boats. They were out to kill the enemies. No quarter. Only it turned out the enemy they fired upon was their greatest ally. OOOPS.

Now, questions about Israel's behavior were undoubtedly muffled by the Johnson Administration--it seems clear they feared a backlash. This de facto cover up, of course, led to conspiracy theories, much as the Johnson Administration's cover up of the Kennedy assassination led to conspiracy theories.

But not all conspiracy theories are equal, or true.

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