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Lifton attacks Fetzer over 9/11 and Israeli complicity


Guest James H. Fetzer
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David Lifton asked me to post this:

Yes, the jewish "bank conspiracy" is probably Fetzer's next project. Who would be surprised to see him dive into another area he does not understand? I would not. And, I would just love to discuss that issue with him, but as usual when the going gets tough, he'll probably bail out.

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Guest James H. Fetzer

LIFTON COMPOUNDS HIS FLAWED AND DISGRACEFUL BEHAVIOR

The only blunder here is that, while I read 6-8 chapters of STRANGER

THAN FICTION, I did not create the video and have no idea who did. I

think this is a nice illustration of David Lifton's slovenly approach when-

even he steps away from BEST EVIDENCE, which appears to define the

range of his intellectual interests and his research competence. Egad!

He has claimed that I read the entire book, when the book has around

18 chapters. He claims that I did so in five segments, when my show

only has four. He complains about a video, when the program is only

audio. He apparently had never read the book nor even listened to the

program about which he complains. This is about as shabby as it gets.

I cannot imagine a better illustration of Lifton's incompetence when he

confronts something he does not like. The video he attacks no doubt

deserves to be criticized, BUT I DIDN'T MAKE IT. My guess would be

that it is a mini-false flag attack by supporters of Israel who set it up

for tools like Lifton to attack because it is too close to the whole truth.

Read the false claims that Lifton makes here: "The graphics employed

by Fetzer make explicitly clear what he thinks of "the Jews" in general,

and Israel in particular. The first one makes clear who Fetzer believes

is responsible—the Jewish Star of David superimposed over the image

of the burning Twin Towers in New York City." THE VIDEO ISN'T MINE.

You might have thought that, before launching a rampage about 9/11,

where Lifton appears to be massively ignorant, he would at least make

sure he had the right target. I have said I take for granted his assault

is not related to my defense of Judyth or the money he owes me. But

it is obvious at this point that Lifton suffers from serious character flaws.

His venomous attack, which is purportedly justified on the basis of some

video I did not make--which I now suspect is intended to undermine my

efforts to present a symposium in London--demonstrates that he has no

regard for the truth or respect for others. His attack is an intellectually

irresponsible exercise that violates the most basic canons of morality.

It is obvious that he has not read any of my work on this subject, not

even "9/11 and the Neo-Con Agenda" or (what would seem especially

relevant) "Is 9/11 research 'anti-Semitic'?" If Lifton is so concerned

about anti-Semitism--a concern I share--you would think he would at

least know how to spell the word correctly instead of "anti-Semetism".

Lifton displays his lack of knowledge of the alleged "hijackers", unaware

that the first point David Ray Griffin makes about them in his book THE

9/11 COMMISSON: OMISSION AND DISTORTIONS, is that several have

turned up alive and well since the events of 9/11. But this is far from

the only evidence that 9/11 was a staged event. Consider the following.

Elias Davidsson, "No evidence that Muslims hijacked planes on 9/11",

has demonstrated that the government has never produced proof that

any of them were actually aboard any of the planes. And Griffin has

now established that the phone calls from the planes were all faked:

see http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?con...a&aid=10103

And Col. George Nelson, USAF (ret.), has observed that, even though

there are millions of uniquely identifiable parts from these four planes,

the government has yet to produce a single one! See "New Proof of

Video Fakery on 9/11", which you can google. Or read the studies in

THE 9/11 CONSPIRACY! Get up to speed about research on 9/11!

Lifton is acting like a lone-nutter to research showing that the Zapruder

film has been faked! If anyone ever wondered whether his competence

extended beyond the scope of his own tiny world of JFK research, here

is the answer. LIFTON HAS NO IDEA WHAT HE IS TALKING ABOUT.

That other flakes join him in this misconceived exercise is no surprise.

The evidence for Israeli complicity in the events of 9/11, by the way, is

extensive and compelling. Lifton may want to adopt the Ostrich policy

or follow the Goebell's practice of smearing your enemies independent

of the facts, as he does here, but those with the integrity and courage to

confront the grim reality of 9/11 should study http://rediscover911.com.

To censor or not to censor, that is the question. Have you read the book

Lifton attacks, STRANGER THAN FICTION? Have you listened to the

program during which I read from it? Are you aware my programs are

archived as mp3s and have no video component? Have you given any

thought at all to the baselessness of most of what Lifton has written?

DSL REPLYING HERE TO FETZER:

See below for a verbal description of some of the graphics used in connection with Fetzer’s podcasts. These graphics are on the screen during his YouTube presentation, as he reads aloud from “Stranger than Fiction,” Pastore’s book promoting the theory that Israel was responsible for 9/11.

From beginning to end, it is clear that Jim Fetzer endorses the view that Israel is responsible for the destruction of the World Trade Center in New York City on September 11, 2001, and he illustrates his view with very ugly and inflammatory anti-Semitic graphics. In Fetzer’s view, “the Jews” (over the last 150 years, at least) are responsible for many of the evils of the modern world, and when one buys into his theory that the State of Israel was the responsible for the destruction of the World Trade Center, the circle is complete (as they say) and the elements are all there for demonizing the Jews, and for arguing, to a large extent, that they are the “first cause” of much evil in the modern world.

The graphics employed by Fetzer make explicitly clear what he thinks of "the Jews" in general, and Israel in particular.

The first one makes clear who Fetzer believes is responsible—the Jewish Star of David superimposed over the image of the burning Twin Towers in New York City.

Next comes an anti-Semitic headline in newspaper asserting that Jewish forces political forces were responsible for starting the conflict with Germany (“Judea Declares War on German/Jews Of the World Unite in Action”). In other words—Hitler didn’t start World War II—it was an act of self-defense after being provoked by world Jewry!

Another shows the burly hand of a Jew, emblazoned with the Star of David, stabbing a knife in the back of a German Solder—another of Fetzer’s graphics pushing the view that Judaism plotted to destroy Germany (and, like the other graphics, all tis appears under the YouTube headline, presumably written by Fetzer himself), “Jim Fetzer KNOWS Israel Did 911”.

Next comes a caricature of a smiling fat Jewish banker, with blood dripping from his hands, and (again) a Star of David , apparently intended to show how Jewish bankers control world events (and particularly, how they influenced Britain in connection with the Balfour declaration, the partition of Palestine, etc.).

Another graphic shows Fetzer’s rogue’s gallery of politicians and financial interests—symbolized by specific Jews—that influenced US President Woodrow Wilson (the photos are of Chaim Weizmann, Louis Brandeis, Bernard Baruch, captioned as “The Three Zionists who Squeezed Woodrow Wilson”);

. . .and then finally, the graphic showing an ugly and evil looking Jewish bird of prey, identified by the Star of David, having a helpless figure labeled “International Community” in its jaws.

So this is Fetzer’s latest “conspiracy theory”—we have now moved beyond Dealey Plaza and beyond the fantasist Judyth, to this area; to the case of 9/11—another area where Fetzer claims expertise (of course!)—and to his belief that the "the Jews"--over the course of many decades--and the State of Israel, in this instance, are the culprits.

Speaking only for myself, I don’t care if Jim Fetzer can edit a list of 59 witnesses who believed the President’s car stopped on Elm Street, or whether he endorses my book (or Doug Horne’s work) about the falsification of the medical evidence.

I don’t want to be associated with this kind of political pornography against Jewish people and the State of Israel.

As I wrote in an email to a friend this morning, addressing the issue of just what makes Fetzer tick:

QUOTE: “But to repeat my major point: Fetzer is not really an anti-Semite. He's just an attention-seeking fool, who will argue ANY position with great authority and pomposity as long as it puts him in the spotlight.

In this case, and most unfortunately, his historical "confreres" are the likes of Goebbels and Hitler.

“If they were alive and had sponsored a '9/11 Conference,' you can be sure that Jim Fetzer would be among the first to sign up, and then utilize that as a springboard to get on the equivalent of O'Reilly. UNQUOTE

As Fetzer exulted recently (in an email) upon discovering he was the accidental beneficiary of some unexpected publicity (when another person named Fetzer (Republican chairman Tim Fetzer, of North Carolina—no relation) improperly endorsed a primary opponent, causing a dust-up amongst the supporters of his tea party opponent): “You can't buy publicity like this and I am doing an event in London in Judy about 9/11!”

All very well. Let Fetzer market his political pornography elsewhere. I want no part of it (or him). Its not that Fetzer is “politically incorrect.” He’s just a pompous ass. Remember what attorney Welch said to Sen. Joe McCarthy in June, 1954: “Have you no sense of decency?” That’s just about how I feel about Jim Fetzer, and his attempt to gain publicity for himself as he attempts to hold Israel (and “the Jews”) responsible for the destruction for the World Trade Center on September 11, 2001.

DSL

PS: And oh, by the way, did you know that many of the hijackers who flew the planes in 9/11/2001, actually are alive and well? . . .and were simply victims of identity theft? Didn't know that, eh? Well, then you must read "Stronger Than Fiction," because that's what this book, promoted by Fetzer, states. But I'll save everyone the trouble of reading that tripe, by quoting, here, from page 17:

QUOTE: That's right! Seven of the nineteen "hijackers" are alive and well. They were victims of identity theft, some of whom had had their passports stolen. They were interviewed by several news organizations including the Telegraph of England." etc. UNQUOTE

This is the kind of junk that Fetzer is promoting, aside from the over arching multiple anti-Semitic theses, illustrated by highly inflammatory graphics, about "the Jews."

6/6/10; 1:40 AM PDT

Los Angeles, CA

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Guest James H. Fetzer

NOTE: I have added the two graphics that came with the article, which appeared on

an influential international web site. Those who have not dealt with these issues may

not be aware of the commonality of political art as a feature of studies of these issues.

The distinction between anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism is far more familiar to the rest

of the world than within the United States. There is widespread contempt for Zionism.

ISRAELI WAR CRIMES: FROM THE USS LIBERTY TO THE HUMANITARIAN FLOTILLA

When is Lifton going to cease his misconceived ad hominem attack and deal with the

real issues, which concern the history of Zionism and a host of "false flag" attacks by

the State of Isreal as well as other war crimes, documented here by James Petras?

Anyone who read my articles, "9/11 and the Neo-Con Agenda" or "Is 9/11 research

'anti-Semitic'?" would know that, based upon my research, the primary perpetrators

of 9/11 were US Neo-Cons, many of whom have joint US-Israeli citizenship. I have

long admired Israel, but the evidence of Israeli complicity in the events of 9/11 is

massive and compelling. Lifton would rather talk about a video I did not make than

confront the evidence. That is the sign of a zealot, not a serious student of 9/11. I

ask him to step back and regain composure. He is making a complete fool of himself.

James Petrus, "Israeli War Crimes: From the U.S. Liberty to the Humanitarian Flotilla", http://www.voltairenet.org/article165694.html

Israeli War Crimes: From the U.S. Liberty to the Humanitarian Flotilla

by James Petras*

It is unthinkable that Israel’s premeditated deadly assault on the humanitarian flotilla could have gone ahead without a nod from Washington. James Petras lambastes Barack Obama and the U.S. Government for their refusal to condemn Israel and their outrageous political cover-up of a deliberate criminal act. In the face of such State complicity, the only way to put pressure on Israel is for civil society to sustain the world-wide boycott, disinvestment and sanctions campaign (BDS) against all Israeli products, cultural activities and professional exchanges.

bds2.jpg

5 June 2010

Introduction: Israel Crimes on the High Seas

On June 8, 1967, two squadrons of Israeli warplanes bombed, napalmed and machine-gunned the US intelligence-gathering ship, USS Liberty, in international waters, killing 34 US sailors and wounding another 172. The assault took place on a sunny afternoon, with the US flag and identifying markers clearly visible. The Israelis targeted the antennae to prevent the crew from broadcasting for help and shot up the lifeboats to ensure no survivors. There were, however, survivors who rigged up an antenna and radioed their distress, a call for help that reached Washington D.C. In an unprecedented act of betrayal, President Johnson, in close liaison with powerful American Jewish Zionist political backers, covered up the mass murder on the high seas by issuing orders first to recall Mediterranean-based warplanes from rushing to assist their besieged comrades, then threatening to court-martial the survivors who might expose the deliberate nature of the Israeli assault and finally by repeating the Israeli line that the attack was a matter of mistaken identity, a lie which numerous military leaders later rejected.

Almost to the day, 43 years later, on May 31, 2010, Israeli warships, helicopter gun ships and commandos assaulted a convoy of humanitarian ships carrying ten thousand tons of aid to Gaza in international waters. Prior to the aid mission Turkish authorities had examined the passengers and the ship to ensure no weapons were on board. The Israelis never the less came on board shooting and clubbing the unarmed passengers, killing up to19 and wounding dozens. Despite subsequent Israeli and Zionist claims to the contrary no weapons were found, apart from sticks used by some of the victims attempting to fend off the murderous premeditated assault planned, directed and defended by top Israeli leaders and the entire leadership of the major Zionist organizations in the US and elsewhere. The invading Israeli storm troopers systematically destroyed all cameras, videos and tape recorders that had documented their savage assault, in order to subsequently spread their brazen lies about their being subject to armed resistance.

The World Response

Within hours of Israel’s bloody act of piracy, nations, political leaders, human rights organizations and the vast majority of the international community condemned the Israeli state for its violation of international law. Turkey, Spain, Greece, Denmark and Austria summoned their Israeli Ambassadors to protest the deadly assault. The Financial Times, (June 1, 2010) referred to the Israeli assault as a “brazen act of piracy … hurtling into lawlessness” rooted in its “illegal blockage of Gaza”. Turkey’s Prime Minister Recep Erdogan called the Israeli assault an act of “state terrorism” which would have “serious consequences”. Israel’s attacks on ships flying Turkish, Greek and Irish flags on the high seas were described by legal experts as an “act of war”. The UN Security Council, NATO and the Secretary General of the UN demanded Israel cease its aggression, while tens of thousands of demonstrators marched denouncing Israel’s blatant act of state murder and wounding of pacifists, humanitarians and protestors from 60 countries. UN experts demanded that Israeli leaders “must be held criminally responsible”. Only the Obama regime refused to condemn the Israeli act of state terror, merely expressing “concern and regret”. The Israeli state defended its murderous assault, promised more in the future and insisted on maintaining its blockade of Gaza, even after the US suggested it might be loosened.

The Israeli Defense of Piracy and State Terror

As news of the Israeli massacre slipped out and the international community reacted with horror and anger, the Israeli government “sought to flood the airwaves with their versions of events … more importantly, the authorities ensured that their narrative gained early dominance by largely silencing the hundreds of activists who were on board during the attack” (Financial Times, June 2, 2010, p2.). The Jewish state held all the prisoners alive, wounded and dead incommunicado, seized their mobile phones and prohibited any interviews, barring all journalists. Like most terrorist states, the Jewish state wanted to monopolize the propaganda media. The Israeli propaganda machine via its state sponsored journalists and news media employed several ploys typical of totalitarian regimes.

- 1. Israeli storm troopers invading the ship were turned into victims and the humanitarian pacifists were turned into aggressors. “Israeli Soldiers Met by Well-Planned Lynch Mob” (Jerusalem Post, March 31, 2010); “Israeli Soldiers Attacked” (IDF, March 31, 2010).

- 2. Israel’s act of piracy in international waters was declared legal by a Professor Sabel of the Hebrew University.

- 3. The humanitarian organizers were accused of having ties to terrorists according to Deputy Foreign Minister Ayalon, though no evidence was presented (Ha’aretz, May 30, 2010). The organizers including the Turkish human rights group accused by Ayalon were cleared by the Turkish intelligence agency, the military and the Erdogan government, a member of NATO and for many years (in the past) a collaborator with the Israeli Mossad. The other 600 plus human rights volunteers, included pacifists, parliamentarians, former diplomats, as well as current members of the Israeli parliament.

- 4. While dozens of human rights people were shot, killed and maimed, Israeli propagandists doctored video releases portraying one of the Israeli assailants on the deck, cutting out the preceding sequence of attack (Financial Times, June 2, 2010, p. 2).

- 5. The Israeli sea and airborne assailants were described as the victims of a “Brutal Ambush at Sea” (Ynet News, June 1, 2010).

- 6. The terrorized human rights workers were accused of being a “lynch mob”, attacking the Jewish commandos who were firing automatic rifles wildly across the deck and at cornered victims. The few courageous individuals who fought back to stop the murderous attack were slandered by the Zion-prop, which itself is as monstrous as the crimes they perpetrated.

Once the Israeli propaganda machine started spewing out its gutter lies, the entire leadership of the Zionist Fifth column swung into action … first and foremost in the United States.

The US Zionist Power Configuration: In Defense of the Massacre

Just as the entire leadership of the 51 principle American Jewish organizations defended every Israeli war crime in the past, from the bombing of the US Liberty, to the Occupation of the West Bank and the blockade of Gaza so too did these most honorable apologists repeat verbatim the lies of the Israeli state regarding the assault of the humanitarian flotilla.

The Daily Alert (May 31 – June 2, 2010), the official public propaganda organ of the Presidents of the Major American Jewish Organizations, published every scurrilous Israeli state lie, about the Israeli commandos being ‘lynched’, ‘attacked’ and the human rights victims being responsible for the death of their comrades … at the hands of Israeli commandos. Not a single deviation, not a single word of criticism. Not even a single mention of even the superficial Israeli critics who faulted the execution, the use of deadly weapons, the assault in international waters, and the public relations fiasco.

The vast majority of Israeli Jews and organized Zionists in the US supported the bloody massacre and were opposed by a small minority who has no access to the mass media. Zionist control over the mass media was once again demonstrated by the reporting through “Israel’s eyes” (FAIR, June 1, 2010). Essentially the New York Times, the Washington Post, CNN, CBS, NBC presented the Israeli commandos attacking the humanitarian boat as being … “assaulted and beaten” (Washington Post, June 1, 2010). The New York Times gave credence to the Israeli claim that its act of piracy on the high seas was legal (NY Times, June 1, 2010). For the US mass media the problem is not Israeli state terror, but how to manipulate and disarm the outrage of the international community. To that end the entire Zionist Power configuration has a reliable ally in the Zionized Obama White House and US Congress.

The Obama Response to Israeli State Terror

There is only one basic reason why Israel repeatedly commits crimes against humanity, including the latest assault on the humanitarian flotilla: because it knows that the Zionist Power Configuration, embedded in the US power structure, will ensure government support, in this case the Obama White House.

In the face of the world-wide condemnation of Israel’s crime on the high seas, and calls from the international community for legal action, the Obama regime absolutely refused to criticize Israel. A White House spokesman said “The United States deeply regrets the loss of life and injuries sustained and is currently working to understand the circumstances surrounding the tragedy” (AFP May 31, 2010). An act of state terrorism does not evoke “regrets” – it normally provokes condemnation and punishment. The power which caused “loss of life and injuries” has a name – Israel; the persons who suffered death and injuries during the Israeli assault – have a name – humanitarian volunteers. It was not simply a “loss of life” but a well planned premeditated murder which is openly defended by Prime Minister Netanyahu and his entire Cabinet. The “circumstances” of the murders are clear: Israel assaulted an unarmed ship in international waters, opening fire as they boarded the ship. The Obama regime’s obscene political cover-up of a deliberate criminal act in violation of international law is evident in his description of a serial homicide as a ‘tragedy’. Premeditated state terror has no resemblance to a tragic noble ruler forced by circumstances into a criminal act against their closest allies.

Washington, pressed to participate at a UN Security Council meeting, spent 10 hours eliminating all references to Israel’s illegal criminal act, ending in a resolution which merely calls for an “impartial” investigation, with Washington pushing for an Israeli investigatory committee. To the world at large, including the Turkish government, the Obama regime and the US government, by refusing to condemn Israel, are “accomplices to a mass murder”.

To understand why the Obama regime brought shame and infamy to itself in the eyes of the world, one need look at the Zionist composition of the Obama White House and, equally important, the direct power and access that the principle Jewish-Zionist organizations have over the US political system. In the week preceding Israel’s announced assault on the humanitarian flotilla, (pro-Israel) Jewish leaders met with over a third of US senators to pressure them to pass harsher sanctions on Iran by June. Among the key operatives attending were the Jewish Federation of North America, AIPAC and the rest of the Israeli Fifth Column (Jewish Telegraph Agency, May 26, 2010). The following day a squadron of leaders from the Jewish Federations flew into Washington to meet with top Obama administration officials, to ensure that the White House and Congress did not in any way or form publicly express any criticism of Israel’s settlement policy. No doubt the Zionist apologists for Israeli war crimes extended their agenda to include no public criticism of the Israeli assault on the flotilla. Rahm Emmanuel, top US Presidential aide, was in Tel Aviv as a guest of top officials of the Israel Defense Force a few days before the IDF launched the assault, no doubt having filled Rahm in on the details. The Israeli-American aide to Obama no doubt assured the war criminals of Washington’s unconditional political and military support for Israel’s acts of aggression.

From within the Obama Administration and without, the aggressive pressure from the 51 principle organizations of the American Zionists have guaranteed Israeli war criminals immunity from any War Crimes Tribunal, or even serious political condemnation by the UN Security Council. The Zionized White House’s tactic is to deflect attention from immediate consequential condemnation let alone sanctions, hoping that over time, aided by the blanket mass media apology in the US, the mass indignation and protest overseas will gradually wither away. Obama and his Zionist cohort are already in a belly crawl mode with Israel. Part of Rahm’s mission to Israel was to hand Netanyahu an invitation to the White House, during the week of the slaughter at sea. The only reason Netanyahu did not come to Washington was because he rushed back to Israel to buttress the Foreign Office’s defense of the slaughter in the face of world-wide outrage. But in a phone conversation, Obama promised Netanyahu a prompt new invitation – assuring the Jewish statesman that violating international laws and bloodying dozens of humanitarian activists is of no consequence, especially since it insures continued financial support by Obama’s Zionist backers.

Like Lyndon Johnson with the cover-up of the USS Liberty, Obama’s apology of Israel’s war crimes, is the price for ensuring the backing of billionaire Zionist financiers and media moguls, the tens of thousands of pro-Israel Jews and the 51 President of the Major American Jewish Organizations.

In the face of Washington’s complicity with Israeli war crimes, the only road is to intensify the world-wide boycott, disinvestment and sanctions campaign against all Israeli products, cultural activities and professional exchanges.

bds11.jpg

Hopefully, the Islamic led mass protests will find echo in the wider anti-Zionist Christian and Jewish communities – especially, when Israeli apologists for state terror make public appearances. Even more important each and every Israeli involved in the mass assault should be subject to criminal prosecution wherever they visit. Only by making the Israelis understand that they will pay a high price for their serial homicides and violations of international law will reason possibly enter their political narrative. Only by moving beyond symbolic protests, like recalling diplomats, and taking substantive actions, like breaking relations, will the international community isolate the perpetrator of state terrorism.

All Americans should send loud and clear to President Obama –NEVER AGAIN. Otherwise, with the Zionist Power Configuration active 7/24, the Obama regime, true to the Zionist agenda, will once again focus attention on attacking Iran. Israel’s action today with US complicity is a prelude of the kind of deadly force it has in store for sabotaging the recent Turkey-Brazil-Iran diplomatic agreement.

This is dedicated to the brave Turkish martyrs on the Mavi Marmara, May 31, 2010, and to the 34 murdered American sailors on the USS Liberty, June 8, 1967 – all victims of an unrepentant criminal state - Israel.

James Petras

James Petras is a Bartle Professor (Emeritus) of Sociology at Binghamton University, New York. He is the author of 64 books translated in 29 languages and has published over 2000 articles. His most recent book: Global Depression and Regional Wars, Clarity Press (2009).

Edited by James H. Fetzer
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I don’t want to be associated with this kind of political pornography against Jewish people and the State of Israel.

As I wrote in an email to a friend this morning, addressing the issue of just what makes Fetzer tick:

QUOTE: “But to repeat my major point: Fetzer is not really an anti-Semite. He's just an attention-seeking fool, who will argue ANY position with great authority and pomposity as long as it puts him in the spotlight.

---------

All very well. Let Fetzer market his political pornography elsewhere. I want no part of it (or him). Its not that Fetzer is “politically incorrect.” He’s just a pompous ass. Remember what attorney Welch said to Sen. Joe McCarthy in June, 1954: “Have you no sense of decency?” That’s just about how I feel about Jim Fetzer, and his attempt to gain publicity for himself as he attempts to hold Israel (and “the Jews”) responsible for the destruction for the World Trade Center on September 11, 2001.

DSL

PS: And oh, by the way, did you know that many of the hijackers who flew the planes in 9/11/2001, actually are alive and well? . . .and were simply victims of identity theft? Didn't know that, eh? Well, then you must read "Stronger Than Fiction," because that's what this book, promoted by Fetzer, states. But I'll save everyone the trouble of reading that tripe, by quoting, here, from page 17:

QUOTE: That's right! Seven of the nineteen "hijackers" are alive and well. They were victims of identity theft, some of whom had had their passports stolen. They were interviewed by several news organizations including the Telegraph of England." etc. UNQUOTE

This is the kind of junk that Fetzer is promoting, aside from the over arching multiple anti-Semitic theses, illustrated by highly inflammatory graphics, about "the Jews."

6/6/10; 1:40 AM PDT

Los Angeles, CA

David,

You are certainly spot on about the spotlight. I would just add that in his own mind, it seems, seeking for "the truth" and "going where the evidence" points, are the justifications for most of these outlandish views. In his own mind, Fetzer, no doubt, sees himself as the saviour who's brave mission it is to enlighten the rest of the world.

What other excuse and explanation could there possibly be for these preposterous views?

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David Lifton asked me to post this:

Yes, the jewish "bank conspiracy" is probably Fetzer's next project. Who would be surprised to see him dive into another area he does not understand? I would not. And, I would just love to discuss that issue with him, but as usual when the going gets tough, he'll probably bail out.

Agreed. Completely. And BTW, I read the book--every page. Except for the opening parts, which lauds philosophy and the importance of seeking the truth, it then veers off and is extremist nonsense, written for the looney tune set.Its as if someone with credentials in astronomy gave a lecture on astrology, and expected us to take it seriously as "science." No matter--as long as Fetzer gets his daily quota of "attention," he doesn't care.

DSL

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ISRAELI WAR CRIMES: FROM THE USS LIBERTY TO THE HUMANITARIAN FLOTILLA

When is Lifton going to cease his misconceived ad hominem attack and deal with the

real issues, which concern the history of Zionism and a host of "false flag" attacks by

the State of Isreal as well as other war crimes, documented here by James Petras?

Anyone who read my articles, "9/11 and the Neo-Con Agenda" or "Is 9/11 research

'anti-Semitic'?" would know that, based upon my research, the primary perpetrators

of 9/11 were US Neo-Cons, many of whom have joint US-Israeli citizenship. I have

long admired Israel, but the evidence of Israeli complicity in the events of 9/11 is

massive and compelling. Lifton would rather talk about a video I did not make than

confront the evidence. That is the sign of a zealot, not a serious student of 9/11. I

ask him to step back and regain composure. He is making a complete fool of himself.

James Petrus, "Israeli War Crimes: From the U.S. Liberty to the Humanitarian Flotilla", http://www.voltairenet.org/article165694.html

Israeli War Crimes: From the U.S. Liberty to the Humanitarian Flotilla

by James Petras*

It is unthinkable that Israel’s premeditated deadly assault on the humanitarian flotilla could have gone ahead without a nod from Washington. James Petras lambastes Barack Obama and the U.S. Government for their refusal to condemn Israel and their outrageous political cover-up of a deliberate criminal act. In the face of such State complicity, the only way to put pressure on Israel is for civil society to sustain the world-wide boycott, disinvestment and sanctions campaign (BDS) against all Israeli products, cultural activities and professional exchanges.

5 June 2010

Introduction: Israel Crimes on the High Seas

On June 8, 1967, two squadrons of Israeli warplanes bombed, napalmed and machine-gunned the US intelligence-gathering ship, USS Liberty, in international waters, killing 34 US sailors and wounding another 172. The assault took place on a sunny afternoon, with the US flag and identifying markers clearly visible. The Israelis targeted the antennae to prevent the crew from broadcasting for help and shot up the lifeboats to ensure no survivors. There were, however, survivors who rigged up an antenna and radioed their distress, a call for help that reached Washington D.C. In an unprecedented act of betrayal, President Johnson, in close liaison with powerful American Jewish Zionist political backers, covered up the mass murder on the high seas by issuing orders first to recall Mediterranean-based warplanes from rushing to assist their besieged comrades, then threatening to court-martial the survivors who might expose the deliberate nature of the Israeli assault and finally by repeating the Israeli line that the attack was a matter of mistaken identity, a lie which numerous military leaders later rejected.

Almost to the day, 43 years later, on May 31, 2010, Israeli warships, helicopter gun ships and commandos assaulted a convoy of humanitarian ships carrying ten thousand tons of aid to Gaza in international waters. Prior to the aid mission Turkish authorities had examined the passengers and the ship to ensure no weapons were on board. The Israelis never the less came on board shooting and clubbing the unarmed passengers, killing up to19 and wounding dozens. Despite subsequent Israeli and Zionist claims to the contrary no weapons were found, apart from sticks used by some of the victims attempting to fend off the murderous premeditated assault planned, directed and defended by top Israeli leaders and the entire leadership of the major Zionist organizations in the US and elsewhere. The invading Israeli storm troopers systematically destroyed all cameras, videos and tape recorders that had documented their savage assault, in order to subsequently spread their brazen lies about their being subject to armed resistance.

The World Response

Within hours of Israel’s bloody act of piracy, nations, political leaders, human rights organizations and the vast majority of the international community condemned the Israeli state for its violation of international law. Turkey, Spain, Greece, Denmark and Austria summoned their Israeli Ambassadors to protest the deadly assault. The Financial Times, (June 1, 2010) referred to the Israeli assault as a “brazen act of piracy … hurtling into lawlessness” rooted in its “illegal blockage of Gaza”. Turkey’s Prime Minister Recep Erdogan called the Israeli assault an act of “state terrorism” which would have “serious consequences”. Israel’s attacks on ships flying Turkish, Greek and Irish flags on the high seas were described by legal experts as an “act of war”. The UN Security Council, NATO and the Secretary General of the UN demanded Israel cease its aggression, while tens of thousands of demonstrators marched denouncing Israel’s blatant act of state murder and wounding of pacifists, humanitarians and protestors from 60 countries. UN experts demanded that Israeli leaders “must be held criminally responsible”. Only the Obama regime refused to condemn the Israeli act of state terror, merely expressing “concern and regret”. The Israeli state defended its murderous assault, promised more in the future and insisted on maintaining its blockade of Gaza, even after the US suggested it might be loosened.

The Israeli Defense of Piracy and State Terror

As news of the Israeli massacre slipped out and the international community reacted with horror and anger, the Israeli government “sought to flood the airwaves with their versions of events … more importantly, the authorities ensured that their narrative gained early dominance by largely silencing the hundreds of activists who were on board during the attack” (Financial Times, June 2, 2010, p2.). The Jewish state held all the prisoners alive, wounded and dead incommunicado, seized their mobile phones and prohibited any interviews, barring all journalists. Like most terrorist states, the Jewish state wanted to monopolize the propaganda media. The Israeli propaganda machine via its state sponsored journalists and news media employed several ploys typical of totalitarian regimes.

- 1. Israeli storm troopers invading the ship were turned into victims and the humanitarian pacifists were turned into aggressors. “Israeli Soldiers Met by Well-Planned Lynch Mob” (Jerusalem Post, March 31, 2010); “Israeli Soldiers Attacked” (IDF, March 31, 2010).

- 2. Israel’s act of piracy in international waters was declared legal by a Professor Sabel of the Hebrew University.

- 3. The humanitarian organizers were accused of having ties to terrorists according to Deputy Foreign Minister Ayalon, though no evidence was presented (Ha’aretz, May 30, 2010). The organizers including the Turkish human rights group accused by Ayalon were cleared by the Turkish intelligence agency, the military and the Erdogan government, a member of NATO and for many years (in the past) a collaborator with the Israeli Mossad. The other 600 plus human rights volunteers, included pacifists, parliamentarians, former diplomats, as well as current members of the Israeli parliament.

- 4. While dozens of human rights people were shot, killed and maimed, Israeli propagandists doctored video releases portraying one of the Israeli assailants on the deck, cutting out the preceding sequence of attack (Financial Times, June 2, 2010, p. 2).

- 5. The Israeli sea and airborne assailants were described as the victims of a “Brutal Ambush at Sea” (Ynet News, June 1, 2010).

- 6. The terrorized human rights workers were accused of being a “lynch mob”, attacking the Jewish commandos who were firing automatic rifles wildly across the deck and at cornered victims. The few courageous individuals who fought back to stop the murderous attack were slandered by the Zion-prop, which itself is as monstrous as the crimes they perpetrated.

Once the Israeli propaganda machine started spewing out its gutter lies, the entire leadership of the Zionist Fifth column swung into action … first and foremost in the United States.

The US Zionist Power Configuration: In Defense of the Massacre

Just as the entire leadership of the 51 principle American Jewish organizations defended every Israeli war crime in the past, from the bombing of the US Liberty, to the Occupation of the West Bank and the blockade of Gaza so too did these most honorable apologists repeat verbatim the lies of the Israeli state regarding the assault of the humanitarian flotilla.

The Daily Alert (May 31 – June 2, 2010), the official public propaganda organ of the Presidents of the Major American Jewish Organizations, published every scurrilous Israeli state lie, about the Israeli commandos being ‘lynched’, ‘attacked’ and the human rights victims being responsible for the death of their comrades … at the hands of Israeli commandos. Not a single deviation, not a single word of criticism. Not even a single mention of even the superficial Israeli critics who faulted the execution, the use of deadly weapons, the assault in international waters, and the public relations fiasco.

The vast majority of Israeli Jews and organized Zionists in the US supported the bloody massacre and were opposed by a small minority who has no access to the mass media. Zionist control over the mass media was once again demonstrated by the reporting through “Israel’s eyes” (FAIR, June 1, 2010). Essentially the New York Times, the Washington Post, CNN, CBS, NBC presented the Israeli commandos attacking the humanitarian boat as being … “assaulted and beaten” (Washington Post, June 1, 2010). The New York Times gave credence to the Israeli claim that its act of piracy on the high seas was legal (NY Times, June 1, 2010). For the US mass media the problem is not Israeli state terror, but how to manipulate and disarm the outrage of the international community. To that end the entire Zionist Power configuration has a reliable ally in the Zionized Obama White House and US Congress.

The Obama Response to Israeli State Terror

There is only one basic reason why Israel repeatedly commits crimes against humanity, including the latest assault on the humanitarian flotilla: because it knows that the Zionist Power Configuration, embedded in the US power structure, will ensure government support, in this case the Obama White House.

In the face of the world-wide condemnation of Israel’s crime on the high seas, and calls from the international community for legal action, the Obama regime absolutely refused to criticize Israel. A White House spokesman said “The United States deeply regrets the loss of life and injuries sustained and is currently working to understand the circumstances surrounding the tragedy” (AFP May 31, 2010). An act of state terrorism does not evoke “regrets” – it normally provokes condemnation and punishment. The power which caused “loss of life and injuries” has a name – Israel; the persons who suffered death and injuries during the Israeli assault – have a name – humanitarian volunteers. It was not simply a “loss of life” but a well planned premeditated murder which is openly defended by Prime Minister Netanyahu and his entire Cabinet. The “circumstances” of the murders are clear: Israel assaulted an unarmed ship in international waters, opening fire as they boarded the ship. The Obama regime’s obscene political cover-up of a deliberate criminal act in violation of international law is evident in his description of a serial homicide as a ‘tragedy’. Premeditated state terror has no resemblance to a tragic noble ruler forced by circumstances into a criminal act against their closest allies.

Washington, pressed to participate at a UN Security Council meeting, spent 10 hours eliminating all references to Israel’s illegal criminal act, ending in a resolution which merely calls for an “impartial” investigation, with Washington pushing for an Israeli investigatory committee. To the world at large, including the Turkish government, the Obama regime and the US government, by refusing to condemn Israel, are “accomplices to a mass murder”.

To understand why the Obama regime brought shame and infamy to itself in the eyes of the world, one need look at the Zionist composition of the Obama White House and, equally important, the direct power and access that the principle Jewish-Zionist organizations have over the US political system. In the week preceding Israel’s announced assault on the humanitarian flotilla, (pro-Israel) Jewish leaders met with over a third of US senators to pressure them to pass harsher sanctions on Iran by June. Among the key operatives attending were the Jewish Federation of North America, AIPAC and the rest of the Israeli Fifth Column (Jewish Telegraph Agency, May 26, 2010). The following day a squadron of leaders from the Jewish Federations flew into Washington to meet with top Obama administration officials, to ensure that the White House and Congress did not in any way or form publicly express any criticism of Israel’s settlement policy. No doubt the Zionist apologists for Israeli war crimes extended their agenda to include no public criticism of the Israeli assault on the flotilla. Rahm Emmanuel, top US Presidential aide, was in Tel Aviv as a guest of top officials of the Israel Defense Force a few days before the IDF launched the assault, no doubt having filled Rahm in on the details. The Israeli-American aide to Obama no doubt assured the war criminals of Washington’s unconditional political and military support for Israel’s acts of aggression.

From within the Obama Administration and without, the aggressive pressure from the 51 principle organizations of the American Zionists have guaranteed Israeli war criminals immunity from any War Crimes Tribunal, or even serious political condemnation by the UN Security Council. The Zionized White House’s tactic is to deflect attention from immediate consequential condemnation let alone sanctions, hoping that over time, aided by the blanket mass media apology in the US, the mass indignation and protest overseas will gradually wither away. Obama and his Zionist cohort are already in a belly crawl mode with Israel. Part of Rahm’s mission to Israel was to hand Netanyahu an invitation to the White House, during the week of the slaughter at sea. The only reason Netanyahu did not come to Washington was because he rushed back to Israel to buttress the Foreign Office’s defense of the slaughter in the face of world-wide outrage. But in a phone conversation, Obama promised Netanyahu a prompt new invitation – assuring the Jewish statesman that violating international laws and bloodying dozens of humanitarian activists is of no consequence, especially since it insures continued financial support by Obama’s Zionist backers.

Like Lyndon Johnson with the cover-up of the USS Liberty, Obama’s apology of Israel’s war crimes, is the price for ensuring the backing of billionaire Zionist financiers and media moguls, the tens of thousands of pro-Israel Jews and the 51 President of the Major American Jewish Organizations.

In the face of Washington’s complicity with Israeli war crimes, the only road is to intensify the world-wide boycott, disinvestment and sanctions campaign against all Israeli products, cultural activities and professional exchanges.

Hopefully, the Islamic led mass protests will find echo in the wider anti-Zionist Christian and Jewish communities – especially, when Israeli apologists for state terror make public appearances. Even more important each and every Israeli involved in the mass assault should be subject to criminal prosecution wherever they visit. Only by making the Israelis understand that they will pay a high price for their serial homicides and violations of international law will reason possibly enter their political narrative. Only by moving beyond symbolic protests, like recalling diplomats, and taking substantive actions, like breaking relations, will the international community isolate the perpetrator of state terrorism.

All Americans should send loud and clear to President Obama –NEVER AGAIN. Otherwise, with the Zionist Power Configuration active 7/24, the Obama regime, true to the Zionist agenda, will once again focus attention on attacking Iran. Israel’s action today with US complicity is a prelude of the kind of deadly force it has in store for sabotaging the recent Turkey-Brazil-Iran diplomatic agreement.

This is dedicated to the brave Turkish martyrs on the Mavi Marmara, May 31, 2010, and to the 34 murdered American sailors on the USS Liberty, June 8, 1967 – all victims of an unrepentant criminal state - Israel.

James Petras

James Petras is a Bartle Professor (Emeritus) of Sociology at Binghamton University, New York. He is the author of 64 books translated in 29 languages and has published over 2000 articles. His most recent book: Global Depression and Regional Wars, Clarity Press (2009).

Jim, I've done some reading on the Liberty Incident and it's not as clear a matter as it would seem. While the evidence is 100% clear the Israelis should have known it was an American ship, it's not as clear that they DID know it was an American ship. The Israelis, after the initial attacks, and approaching a wounded ship they could have sent to the bottom, offered instead to help those on the ship. This supports their position that the initial attacks were a mistake.

As for your position on Israel and Israeli complicity in 9/11... While you have claimed the images posted by Lifton are not YOUR images, you haven't disavowed them.

So...tell us...do you believe and are you pushing that Israel was involved in 9/11, and that this was part of a long series of Israeli/Jewish crimes against humanity?

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One of the most interesting aspects of the recent Judyth Baker thread for me was the fact that some people seemed to believe it somehow revealed new flaws in Mr. Fetzer's reasoning methods. Those flaws (ie, relentless attacks of those who dare to disagree with him, a tendency to attract attention with a sensational claim he has failed to research, an inability to offer any credible evidence to back up his claims, etc, etc) have actually been an integral part of the good professor's public persona for a great many years.

By the same token, Fetzer's flirtations with anti semitism is not at all new. Here, for instance, is a story about him defending well known holocaust denier Eric Hufschmid back in 2007.

http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/bastard/2...ic_d_willia.php

Perhaps Fetzer's predilections in this area started when he began associating himself with Kevin Barrett, who calls the Holocaust a myth. The two of them co hosted a radio show and will be making a public appearance together in London next month. Just last week, Fetzer sent out an email trumpeting an interview Barrett did with Alan Hart, a fellow who blames Israel for 9/11. Mr. Hart is an interesting fellow with a documented history of making false accusations about Jews (see, for instance, http://adamholland.blogspot.com/2008/09/al...apped-alan.html ) When I pointed out this sorry part of Hart's history to Fetzer, he- of course- responded with a personal attack.

Edited by Kevin Greenlee
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Let me also recommend a 9/11 web site that

has the courage to confront evidence of Israeli complicity in

9/11, which is http://rediscover911.com. I recommend it to

everyone who has a serious interest in the truth about 9/11.

This is all getting weirder and weirder... wow! You say here that there is "evidence of Israeli complicity in 9/11." Did you mean this or did you misspeak? Do you really think Israel was involved in the 9/11 attacks? If so, what evidence leads you to this conclusion. I know something about 9/11 having been paid as a professional for a couple of years to investigate the collapse of WTC7 on 9/11. Various anti-Semites have been claiming this for years but no serious person ever took it seriously. Do you?

Josiah Thompson

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Let me also recommend a 9/11 web site that

has the courage to confront evidence of Israeli complicity in

9/11, which is http://rediscover911.com. I recommend it to

everyone who has a serious interest in the truth about 9/11.

This is all getting weirder and weirder... wow! You say here that there is "evidence of Israeli complicity in 9/11." Did you mean this or did you misspeak? Do you really think Israel was involved in the 9/11 attacks? If so, what evidence leads you to this conclusion. I know something about 9/11 having been paid as a professional for a couple of years to investigate the collapse of WTC7 on 9/11. Various anti-Semites have been claiming this for years but no serious person ever took it seriously. Do you?

Josiah Thompson

That charming website of Fetzer's is, not surprisingly, full of antisemitic words and images. Here is the part where they address the "evidence" of Israel's complicity in 9/11.

kevin

from http://rediscover911.com/2010/06/mossad-di...aeli-consulate/

WHY DO PEOPLE SAY: “ISRAEL DID 9/11?”

The answer to that question can be summed up in only three words: Lucky Larry Silverstein.

Lucky Larry is a New York real estate tycoon, a Zionist Jew and an intimate of Bibi Netanyahu.

Two months before 9/11, Larry leased the World Trade Center, claiming some sort of compulsion made him do it. It did not make good business sense to lease the buildings. They were outdated, with a vacancy problem and a huge asbestos problem. It would cost a billion dollars to remove the asbestos and New York City was demanding that the former owner, the NY/NJ Port Authority, fix the asbestos problem or demolish the buildings.

Lucky Larry bought an insurance policy which would pay off in case of a “terrorist attack.” And what do you know? 9/11 comes along and Lucky Larry has 5.6 billion dollars of insurance money, no asbestos problem and a level building lot. His pal Bibi Netanyahu has an enraged American public ready to go to war with Israel’s Muslim enemies.

Can you say “Jewish lightning?” (Insurance industry slang term for arson)

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It is possible that at some point in this discussion it will need to be known that what is called ratlines (meaning Raten Lines, or ''head council escape routes'' roughly) were not only the well known south american ones and the absorption into the US of Raten but there was also an east bound Raten Line. I think the Cairo station and its personell and the conflicts and the connection with the assassination of JFK with persons from this area needs to be considered too at some point..

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A very cathartic thread. To be Jewish does not mean you are a Zionist. Zionism is a political philosophy that happens to be associated with extreme groups within the country of Israel as well as without. Not all Muslims are Jihadists to draw a similar parallel. Are the Zionist responsible in some way for 9/11? Do they have connections with the Neocons? Who has benefited from the events of 9/11? Why do American politicians and the media refuse to stand up to atrocities committed by Israel in Gaza? These are all good questions and no one should be afraid to ask them. People who do are usually labeled anti-Semitic. But that is the way to crush an open examination of events and to isolate opponents and those who ask hard questions. There is much to be discovered about the events of 9/11 just as there is about the JFK assassination. Most of you here have broken from the accept everything you hear from the government as truth paradigm, when it comes to the JFK killing. With an open examination of the events surrounding 9/11, some of you might break from the Muslims did it paradigm we have been bombarded with the past 9 years. Were Islamic people involved willingly or used as patsies? After all you have learned about LHO and his manipulation by intelligence agencies, you don't wonder if this could have been repeated in this instance? You do remember reading about something called Operation Northwoods don't you? Don't you think it kind of strange that the government released photos and names of all the so called attackers within days of the 9/11? If they knew who they were why didn't they stop them? Stop the name calling and start studying and using some logic. I'm sure Jim and Jack don't have all the answers but they have the balls to ask the tough questions not many are willing to ask. Remember a third building, 47 floors tall, collapsed in near free fall speed into it's own footprint and was not not hit by an airplane that day, an event that has never been repeated up to or since that day. Don't kill the messenger because you don't like the message. Remember, most people thought David Lifton was crazy when he claimed JFK's body was tampered with some thirty years ago. Now many consider him one of the ultimate truth seekers in the JFK case. For lack of a better phrase, don't rush to judgment until you examine all the facts.

WHY IS WORLD JEWRY OPPOSED TO THE ZIONIST STATE

1) What is "The people of Israel" ?

-The people of Israel have existed for thousands of years.

-It has its own particular, essential, nature.

-The Torah is the source of its essential nature.

-Without Torah and faith there is no people of Israel.

-Whoever denies the Torah and the Faith is no longer part of the people of Israel.

-The purpose of the People of Israel in this world is Divine service.

-Their salvation is occupation in Divine Service.

2) What is Zionism ?

-Zionism is a new thing.

-It has only existed for a century.

-Zionism redefines the true essential nature of the people of Israel, and substitutes for it a completely contradictory and opposite character.

- a materialistic worldly nation.

-Their misfortune is lack of what other nations have. i.e. a state and army.

-Their salvation is possession of a state and army etc.

- This is clearly speed out in the circles of Zionist though, and among the leaders of the Zionist state, That through changing the nature and character of the people of Israel and by changing their way of thinking they can set before the People of Israel "their salvation." -- a state and an army.

Link to above excerpt:

http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/opposed.html

Edited by Walt Rollins
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Thanks for such clear thinking, Walt!

Jack

A very cathartic thread. To be Jewish does not mean you are a Zionist. Zionism is a political philosophy that happens to be associated with extreme groups within the country of Israel as well as without. Not all Muslims are Jihadists to draw a similar parallel. Are the Zionist responsible in some way for 9/11? Do they have connections with the Neocons? Who has benefited from the events of 9/11? Why do American politicians and the media refuse to stand up to atrocities committed by Israel in Gaza? These are all good questions and no one should be afraid to ask them. People who do are usually labeled anti-Semitic. But that is the way to crush an open examination of events and to isolate opponents and those who ask hard questions. There is much to be discovered about the events of 9/11 just as there is about the JFK assassination. Most of you here have broken from the accept everything you hear from the government as truth paradigm, when it comes to the JFK killing. With an open examination of the events surrounding 9/11, some of you might break from the Muslims did it paradigm we have been bombarded with the past 9 years. Were Islamic people involved willingly or used as patsies? After all you have learned about LHO and his manipulation by intelligence agencies, you don't wonder if this could have been repeated in this instance? You do remember reading about something called Operation Northwoods don't you? Don't you think it kind of strange that the government released photos and names of all the so called attackers within days of the 9/11? If they knew who they were why didn't they stop them? Stop the name calling and start studying and using some logic. I'm sure Jim and Jack don't have all the answers but they have the balls to ask the tough questions not many are willing to ask. Remember a third building, 47 floors tall, collapsed in near free fall speed into it's own footprint and was not not hit by an airplane that day, an event that has never been repeated up to or since that day. Don't kill the messenger because you don't like the message. Remember, most people thought David Lifton was crazy when he claimed JFK's body was tampered with some thirty years ago. Now many consider him one of the ultimate truth seekers in the JFK case. For lack of a better phrase, don't rush to judgment until you examine all the facts.

WHY IS WORLD JEWRY OPPOSED TO THE ZIONIST STATE

1) What is "The people of Israel" ?

-The people of Israel have existed for thousands of years.

-It has its own particular, essential, nature.

-The Torah is the source of its essential nature.

-Without Torah and faith there is no people of Israel.

-Whoever denies the Torah and the Faith is no longer part of the people of Israel.

-The purpose of the People of Israel in this world is Divine service.

-Their salvation is occupation in Divine Service.

2) What is Zionism ?

-Zionism is a new thing.

-It has only existed for a century.

-Zionism redefines the true essential nature of the people of Israel, and substitutes for it a completely contradictory and opposite character.

- a materialistic worldly nation.

-Their misfortune is lack of what other nations have. i.e. a state and army.

-Their salvation is possession of a state and army etc.

- This is clearly speed out in the circles of Zionist though, and among the leaders of the Zionist state, That through changing the nature and character of the people of Israel and by changing their way of thinking they can set before the People of Israel "their salvation." -- a state and an army.

Link to above excerpt:

http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/opposed.html

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Walt has rightly drawn very astute (but, I would have hoped OBVIOUS) distinctions between Israelis and Zionists. I object to the ignorant conclusions reached by those who have not studied the HISTORY of the creation of the State of Israel--or at least appear to have studied it with less than an open mind. It still amazes me that many otherwise intelligent and well informed individuals fail to understand "who" the alleged Palestinian People really are, where they came from and how they are being exploited more by anti-Israeli parties than by Isrelis. I say, "alleged" Palestinian People because there is no antecedent for them. They originate, at once, from both nowhere and everywhere. So obfuscated is their claim to the land, that the enemies of Israel would argue that the status afforded those who are "established" as a soverieign state requires NO pre-requisites. But, that is opportunistically ridiculous on its face. I didn't make these rules, but they exist and are rather specific.

What is their "Nationality" ?? Note: I did not ask, "What is their race, religion, or creed..." -- Rather, I asked, "What is their Nationality?" This is important. For without any "nationality" they have no claim until proven. Israelis have a claim based upon RECOGNIZED citizenship of a soveriegn state. I have a claim in the United States based on my RECOGNIZED citizenship of a sovereign state.

In the 1940's ONLY Israel established sovereignty in the region even though the "Palestinians" were invited to do likewise. After WWII Britain et al had withdrawn from the region. Both Jews and Arabs were invited by the United Nations to establish individual sovereignty based upon partitioned land. This idea was REJECTED by the Arab States. The Israelis did not prevent the establishment of a Palestinian State--rather, the opportunity to establish a Palestinian state was NOT siezed upon because it was not in the interests of Israel's anti-Jewish neighbors. Why? Because, since the beginning of this conflict, Israel's neighbors have publically declared their clear intent NOT to live in peace with a Jewish State. They have declared their goal to be "driving the Jews" into the sea. This is NOT a political distinction. It is RELIGIOUS. Plain and simple.

Israel's Arab neighbors not only contribute to the plight of the Palestinians, indeed they CREATED IT, for the sole purpose of fomenting perpetual conflict in the region as a diversionary tactic to distract from their CHARTERED goal of DESTRUCTION of the Jewish State.

So, we have extremists on both sides.

Within a day or so of Israel's being recognized by the US as a sovereign state (due to the establishment of an "interim government") she was attacked by SEVERAL of her neighbors. But why? For what possible reason could this be rationlized other than anti-Jewish sentiment? There had been no declaration of a "Palestinian State" and therefore it is absurd to claim that Israel was "preventing" the formation of same and her neighbors were attempting to defend the right of the Palestinians to sovereignty. Such a claim is historically unsupported since there never was and never has there been a declaration of Palestinian Sovereignty.

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Because, since the beginning of this conflict, Israel's neighbors have publically declared their clear intent NOT to live in peace with a Jewish State. They have declared their goal to be "driving the Jews" into the sea. This is NOT a political distinction. It is RELIGIOUS. Plain and simple.

This is what started a lot of trouble in this world: Religion. Personally, I follow no religious dogma. But I am very interested in Quantum Physics. I think that is the only way we'll ever find who we are and where we are; and why.

Like Bob Dylan said: Don't follow leaders, watch the parking meters.

Kathy C

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Greg, I am the first to admit I have a limited knowledge of the circumstances behind the creation of the state of Israel. I am sure their founding fathers are viewed much like ours are here in the US. It is possible and probably most likely, that elements of the Israeli government have gone rogue so to speak and don't quite live up to the standards most Israeli's might hold for their leaders, much like their Neocon brethren here in the US. I have always supported the idea of a homeland for the Jews. If I understand your explanation, the Palestinians had their chance at a homeland as well and resented the establishment of Israel where they hoped to establish theirs. If you are correct, only they are to blame for not following suit and declaring their own state back in the 40's. Who fired the first shot has some relevance but some 62 years later there is enough blame to be shared by all sides. I find it sad that many Israeli actions smack of the very tactics used by the fascists who hunted them down in the 30 and 40's. I don't condone the Arab attacks on Israel by any means either. The United States government sees what it wants to see and often at the expense of fairness. I can see the Neocons and Zionists working together to pull off a 9/11 attack like I can see the CIA, the Pentagon and the Mafia working together to bump off JFK.

I am open to any scenario that makes sense.

Edited by Walt Rollins
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