Clint Hill - First shot hit the president

[Mike Williams]

What would have kept a conspirator from tossing a single firecracker from a window or roof near Houston and Elm, just to condition the crowd or loyal SS to other small explosions to follow?

That said, I appreciated Bob Harris' video very much.

David, my study of the eyewitnesses suggested the last shot or sound came from west of the TSBD. My study had also suggested that no shooter was seen in that area, however. I also had concerns about the smoke several witnesses saw on the knoll. This led me to wonder if someone had exploded a firecracker in the area.

I gained confidence that this was indeed the case after reading some U.S. Army publications from WW2, which told of German and Japanese snipers using firecrackers as diversionary devices. A sniper would fire from one location, light a long fused firecracker, and then make his way to another location. While opposing forces closed in on their former location, the snipers could either escape or take a second shot from a new and unexpected vantage point. If there were shooters in the TSBD and Dal-Tex, having someone light a firecracker on the Elm Street extension behind the knoll would have been quite helpful in diverting attention from their locations.

Pat,

Those types of devices are still in use today. Generally we call them stoppers. If you have an intended and well protected target, you can engage them while in the open. Using a device like this causes them to pause, and diverts the attention of the protectors. FWIW.

Additionally we insure these make smoke, lingering smoke, and of course a pretty fair bang!

Now does that not sound like that happened on the knoll?

Imagine that....and from some fanatical LN to boot LMAO!

[John Dolva]

Well Mike, a lot of CTers (s..t I never thought I'd lump myself in either camp but thats the lingo. personally I'd prefer Conspiracy Hypothesiser) incl myself will run with that notion.

[Jerry Ellis]

I don't post much here but I am compelled to add something to what Pat just commented on. Wasn't there some commotion or loud noise reported by some on the Grassy Knoll involving Black Dog man that some think was a young man and his wife/gf? I think it was speculated as the dropping of a glass bottle of soda or something. Could that have been a firecracker in reality?

Certainly seems to be a smart diverse tactic.

[Mike Williams]

I don't post much here but I am compelled to add something to what Pat just commented on. Wasn't there some commotion or loud noise reported by some on the Grassy Knoll involving Black Dog man that some think was a young man and his wife/gf? I think it was speculated as the dropping of a glass bottle of soda or something. Could that have been a firecracker in reality?

Certainly seems to be a smart diverse tactic.

Jerry,

At some point I read a testimony about someone throwing something into a bush.....and no it was not George Bush LOL!

Can not recall where I read that.

Mike

[Mike Williams]

Well Mike, a lot of CTers (s..t I never thought I'd lump myself in either camp but thats the lingo. personally I'd prefer Conspiracy Hypothesiser) incl myself will run with that notion.

Run away buddy Run AWAY! LOL

[Herb White]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_WFMYjyhMI&feature=player_embedded

[Herb White]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_WFMYjyhMI&feature=player_embedded

While far from being a firearms expert I do have enough experience firing weapons with friends to know that simultaneous shots, or nearly so, can be mistaken for one shot easily. When one takes into consideration the acoustics of Dealey Plaza, the various locations of witnesses, the real possibility of spotters and radio controlled volleys and sound suppressors the number of shots is very difficult to determine imo.

[Mike Williams]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_WFMYjyhMI&feature=player_embedded

While far from being a firearms expert I do have enough experience firing weapons with friends to know that simultaneous shots, or nearly so, can be mistaken for one shot easily. When one takes into consideration the acoustics of Dealey Plaza, the various locations of witnesses, the real possibility of spotters and radio controlled volleys and sound suppressors the number of shots is very difficult to determine imo.

Herb,

With all due respect silencers are really a bunch of hooey. Even with today's technology suppressors on high powered rifles still emit sound over 100dB. In an area the size of DP there is hardly a need for radio volleys etc. A well laid plan is a single shooter, well trained and armed.

We have no evidence of any of that.

Mike

[Herb White]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_WFMYjyhMI&feature=player_embedded

While far from being a firearms expert I do have enough experience firing weapons with friends to know that simultaneous shots, or nearly so, can be mistaken for one shot easily. When one takes into consideration the acoustics of Dealey Plaza, the various locations of witnesses, the real possibility of spotters and radio controlled volleys and sound suppressors the number of shots is very difficult to determine imo.

Herb,

With all due respect silencers are really a bunch of hooey. Even with today's technology suppressors on high powered rifles still emit sound over 100dB. In an area the size of DP there is hardly a need for radio volleys etc. A well laid plan is a single shooter, well trained and armed.

We have no evidence of any of that.

Mike

Mike,

I only mentioned silencers because they have been brought up in the past. I do not believe they would have been employed for various reasons, but wouldn't rule them out. Some have postulated pistols were involved, which considering the distances from certain points is a possibility I assume. And they can be more effectively silenced. The other points I raised are what makes the number of shots unanswerable in my opinion. There is some evidence that supports teamwork. If a well laid plan is a single shooter, well trained and armed then it makes sense to me thattwo or more of the same would incresae the odds of successs. If the planning is done professionally, then I wouldn't think the chances of being caught would increase significantly. The quote, and I may be paraprhasing "if you set out to kill the king, you better make damn sure you're successful" always rang true for me if it was a group of powerful conspirators, which I believe.

[Mike Williams]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_WFMYjyhMI&feature=player_embedded

While far from being a firearms expert I do have enough experience firing weapons with friends to know that simultaneous shots, or nearly so, can be mistaken for one shot easily. When one takes into consideration the acoustics of Dealey Plaza, the various locations of witnesses, the real possibility of spotters and radio controlled volleys and sound suppressors the number of shots is very difficult to determine imo.

Herb,

With all due respect silencers are really a bunch of hooey. Even with today's technology suppressors on high powered rifles still emit sound over 100dB. In an area the size of DP there is hardly a need for radio volleys etc. A well laid plan is a single shooter, well trained and armed.

We have no evidence of any of that.

Mike

Mike,

I only mentioned silencers because they have been brought up in the past. I do not believe they would have been employed for various reasons, but wouldn't rule them out. Some have postulated pistols were involved, which considering the distances from certain points is a possibility I assume. And they can be more effectively silenced. The other points I raised are what makes the number of shots unanswerable in my opinion. There is some evidence that supports teamwork. If a well laid plan is a single shooter, well trained and armed then it makes sense to me thattwo or more of the same would incresae the odds of successs. If the planning is done professionally, then I wouldn't think the chances of being caught would increase significantly. The quote, and I may be paraprhasing "if you set out to kill the king, you better make damn sure you're successful" always rang true for me if it was a group of powerful conspirators, which I believe.

Herb,

The amount of skill to make a pistol shot like this is far above the skill one would need with a rifle. It is an error to believe that pistols are more effectively suppressed. This comes from all the silencers we see in movies and in military history, they are, almost exclusively .22 caliber. With an HPR the increase in caliber also makes an increase in noise with a silencer. If we are to consider that a .308 is a significant rifle, then we have to consider that a .380 pistol is not. Even though the pistol is larger caliber.

[Herb White]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_WFMYjyhMI&feature=player_embedded

While far from being a firearms expert I do have enough experience firing weapons with friends to know that simultaneous shots, or nearly so, can be mistaken for one shot easily. When one takes into consideration the acoustics of Dealey Plaza, the various locations of witnesses, the real possibility of spotters and radio controlled volleys and sound suppressors the number of shots is very difficult to determine imo.

Herb,

With all due respect silencers are really a bunch of hooey. Even with today's technology suppressors on high powered rifles still emit sound over 100dB. In an area the size of DP there is hardly a need for radio volleys etc. A well laid plan is a single shooter, well trained and armed.

We have no evidence of any of that.

Mike

Mike,

I only mentioned silencers because they have been brought up in the past. I do not believe they would have been employed for various reasons, but wouldn't rule them out. Some have postulated pistols were involved, which considering the distances from certain points is a possibility I assume. And they can be more effectively silenced. The other points I raised are what makes the number of shots unanswerable in my opinion. There is some evidence that supports teamwork. If a well laid plan is a single shooter, well trained and armed then it makes sense to me thattwo or more of the same would incresae the odds of successs. If the planning is done professionally, then I wouldn't think the chances of being caught would increase significantly. The quote, and I may be paraprhasing "if you set out to kill the king, you better make damn sure you're successful" always rang true for me if it was a group of powerful conspirators, which I believe.

Herb,

The amount of skill to make a pistol shot like this is far above the skill one would need with a rifle. It is an error to believe that pistols are more effectively suppressed. This comes from all the silencers we see in movies and in military history, they are, almost exclusively .22 caliber. With an HPR the increase in caliber also makes an increase in noise with a silencer. If we are to consider that a .308 is a significant rifle, then we have to consider that a .380 pistol is not. Even though the pistol is larger caliber.

Mike, Come on. You're swatting at flies and ignoring the elephants. I only said pistols were a possibility. but a 22 can be very lethal and accurate depending on the bullet and skill of the shooter. And I assume one would make certain of that if looking for marksmen. Without going into detail here one can google silenced weapons of the 1960's and find all the information one wishes by various experts. Bottomline....silencers can't be ruled out. My main points were the possiblity of volleys, the variable acoustics of DP and the location of the witnesses.

[John Dolva]

Kennedys right side head was facing the knoll shooting position. The front of his head was facing ssw. A shot from the NK doesn't seem credible to me. IF there was a noise and smoke from there a diversionary ''stopper'' fits nicely. It's far from a new idea.

[Jerry Ellis]

I don't post much here but I am compelled to add something to what Pat just commented on. Wasn't there some commotion or loud noise reported by some on the Grassy Knoll involving Black Dog man that some think was a young man and his wife/gf? I think it was speculated as the dropping of a glass bottle of soda or something. Could that have been a firecracker in reality?

Certainly seems to be a smart diverse tactic.

Jerry,

At some point I read a testimony about someone throwing something into a bush.....and no it was not George Bush LOL!

Can not recall where I read that.

Mike

Thanks Mike, I will look for that. By the way, I meant diversion tactic, not diverse.

[Mike Williams]

I don't post much here but I am compelled to add something to what Pat just commented on. Wasn't there some commotion or loud noise reported by some on the Grassy Knoll involving Black Dog man that some think was a young man and his wife/gf? I think it was speculated as the dropping of a glass bottle of soda or something. Could that have been a firecracker in reality?

Certainly seems to be a smart diverse tactic.

Jerry,

At some point I read a testimony about someone throwing something into a bush.....and no it was not George Bush LOL!

Can not recall where I read that.

Mike

Thanks Mike, I will look for that. By the way, I meant diversion tactic, not diverse.

Jerry,

No worries buddy I knew what ya meant. If you get a chance and have the desire to check out my website. www.jfkballistics.com

I have some decent videos and stuff there that you might be interested in. If not that's fine too.

Best to you my friend,

Mike

[Robert Harris]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_WFMYjyhMI&feature=player_embedded

Like many others, including Brehm, Moorman and J Hill, Clint Hill did not hear any of the early shots. Look at him in the Altgens photo, taken at Z255. He is the ONLY agent on the running boards who is not looking back or reacting.

He leaped from the running board almost simultaneous with the shot at 312-313, in reaction to a shot that was immediately prior to that. And he thought (mistakenly of course), that JFK first reacted, almost simultaneous with him jumping,

Representative FORD. Did you see the President put his hands to his throat and chest while you were still on the followup car, or after you had left it?

Mr. HILL. As I was leaving..

Hill jumped from the running board in reaction to the shot at 285, thinking that was the first shot and that JFK had just started to react. Nothing else makes sense.

This is really silly, Robert. If Hill saw Kennedy put his hands to his throat, he saw him BEFORE Z-285, and the shot he heard BEFORE he saw Kennedy reach for his throat was therefore seconds BEFORE Z-285. Your trying to spin him as a witness for a shot at Z-285 just doesn't work.

Hill, like HARGIS and a number of others, heard two shots--an early one to which Kennedy reacted, and a second one they associated with the large head wound. Many more thought there were two shots, bang-bang, around the time Kennedy was struck in the head. If you're gonna argue for a shot at Z-285, your best bet is to argue that it was the first of the two shots people heard as bang-bang, and Hill (and others) heard as one sound.

But that's also problematic. Most of the closest witnesses--Brehm, Moorman, Hill, Hudson, Summers--heard a shot after the headshot, which suggests the headshot was the first of the two shots heard as bang-bang by so many, and not the second.

Your belief that Hill saw JFK with his hands raised prior to 285, is in direct contradiction to what he said. To put it another way, if you want to know what shot Hill heard, then listen to him.

Hill believed that JFK first raised his hands, as he was jumping off the running board, which he did at or a hair prior to 312. Read the citation I posted from his WC testimony.

And he said that he was scanning a small group in a grassy area who were watching the limo pass them.

On the left hand side was a grass area with a few people scattered along it observing the motorcade passing, and I was visually scanning these people when I heard a noise similar to a firecracker.

This is important, Pat. Look at him at frame 223. He is looking slightly to the right and could not possibly be scanning people on the lefthand side of the road. In fact, he NEVER looks to his left while he was visible in the Zfilm.

And while you're looking at him in the wide film, look at his orientation at 247-249, as we lose sight of him. Then look at his orientation a third of a second later in the Altgens photo. He is turning at a fairly rapid pace, to his left, and toward Brehm and the people around him. At that pace, he was scanning those people about a second prior to the shot.

High powered rifle shots are very loud and very startling. Clint Hill did not and could not have heard such a thing and then just stood around for five seconds, picking his nose. We would expect him to react immediately, and when he heard what he believed was a real gunshot, he did.

I agree with you that there was another shot after 312-313, but it was probably fired from a handgun which was subsonic and much weaker than the rifleshot that preceded it by a small fraction of a second. A majority of people never heard it, or wrote it off as an echo.