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Birth certificate again (merged with CIAer)


Jack White
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Jack,

I don't know if you remember this or not, but during the campaign I researched the methods by which one could obtain either a copy of a vital document or a VERIFICATION of the existence of same in lieu of a copy of the actual document itself from the Department of Health. For purposes allegedly associated with privacy, namely the prevention of Identity Theft, the department will not supply a copy of the document unless the person requesting the document is the person to whom the document refers, or in some cases, a family member. However, when they can't send the document they will instead send an official Letter of Verification. This letter verifies that an official of the Department has personally CONFIRMED the existence of the document. I believe the charge for such a letter was $35.00 -- This procedure was spelled out on their website.

[Note: First of all, the odds of anyone "stealing" President (then Senator) Obama's identity was virtually non-existent. It is and was idiotic to claim otherwise. So, the "intent of the law" (protecting his privacy) had already been met by the CONDITIONS of this unique situation and therefore adhering to the "letter of the law" was unnecessary and counter-intuitive to its original purpose. But, I assumed they might just be sticklers about the policy/law and wouldn't budge even under these rather extraordinary circumstances.]

So...rather than request a copy of the document itself, I proceeded to employ the method they themselves have in place to secure a Letter of Verification that his actual Birth Certificate (hospital vault original) existed. I wrote a nice short letter to the Hawaiian Health Department's office of vital records stating what I was requesting and I even "quoted the procedure" from their own website in the letter. I gave them all of my contact information, phone numbers, email, physical address, and enclosed a MONEY ORDER for the full amount and a self addressed stamped return envelope for their convenience. I then made a copy of everything before mailing it Certified Return Receipt Requested. They received it as I have the receipt, but I never heard a word from them. A few weeks went by...then I called the Department of Health and spoke with an individual who was sympathetic, but not able to help. I spoke to a supervisor who said something to the effect of: "We've all been instructed to ignore such requests concerning Mr. Obama's birth records." I asked, "Why aren't you processing a verification letter as per your own website's instructions?" She re-iterated that they had been instructed to ignore all such requests. I couldn't believe it! I asked for them to send my uncashed money order back and she said, "I'm sorry, we don't do that either."

Quite disturbing.

Edited by Greg Burnham
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So this Clinton-McCain supporter supposedly was told in the spring-summer of 2008 by his unnamed supervisor at the electtion office Obama was NOT born in Hawaii but waited till nearly 2 years after the election to say anything.The it turns out that the head of the office said "We don't have access to that kind of records. [There's] no access to birth records." What the (after) Birthers have yet to explain is why, if their claims were true, none of Obama`s rivals for the nomination or in the general election tried to use it. Even the Republican governor of the state says this is nonsense.

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Len,

I voted for Obama in spite of what I reported above. However, I believe that I (or anyone) should be able to acquire a COPY of a document that PROVES the President was, in fact, born in the United States as is required by the US Constitution for him to be eligible for the office. If, however, the Health Department insists on being anally retentive about the rules as listed on their own website, then I understand why (although it doesn't apply here) they still would refuse to send a copy of the actual document. However, in the spirit of consistency, they should adhere to ALL of their rules and procedures and supply an Official Letter of Verification that such a document exists (Birth Certificate) and confirm the pertinent information.

Why not? I can't think of any good reason to refuse to supply PROOF. They would really only need to do it once and this would be over. That they have failed to do it so far, is suspect.

So this Clinton-McCain supporter supposedly was told in the spring-summer of 2008 by his unnamed supervisor at the electtion office Obama was NOT born in Hawaii but waited till nearly 2 years after the election to say anything.The it turns out that the head of the office said "We don't have access to that kind of records. [There's] no access to birth records." What the (after) Birthers have yet to explain is why, if their claims were true, none of Obama`s rivals for the nomination or in the general election tried to use it. Even the Republican governor of the state says this is nonsense.

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As a non-American, I must admit to being slightly mystified by all the fuss about whether Obama was born in the US or not.

I have no opinion either way on the veracity of his place of birth. I just can't see why it matters. Granted, I'm making the assumption that the US Constitution says that a president must have been born in America. If so, it smacks of constitutionalized racism to me (I'm not referring to the colour of his skin here, just the issue of whether he was born in America). Does it really matter? I care little about where my Prime Minister was born. I do care about what he can do to drag my country out of the seemingly endless mire we're in. To be frank, if the person capable of rescuing my country was a Little-Green-Man from Mars, then sign me up to the Little-Green-Men party. Maybe it's something to do with being English, which by definition means mixed race. The puzzling thing is, I thought you Yanks (sic) were of more mixed race than we Brits? So why the xenophobia when it comes to the nationality of your leader? If a foreigner is good enough to be governor of California, why not president? (Please don't get side-tracked into whether the Governator himself is suitable president material!)

Puzzled!

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As a non-American, I must admit to being slightly mystified by all the fuss about whether Obama was born in the US or not.

I have no opinion either way on the veracity of his place of birth. I just can't see why it matters. Granted, I'm making the assumption that the US Constitution says that a president must have been born in America. If so, it smacks of constitutionalized racism to me (I'm not referring to the colour of his skin here, just the issue of whether he was born in America). Does it really matter? I care little about where my Prime Minister was born. I do care about what he can do to drag my country out of the seemingly endless mire we're in. To be frank, if the person capable of rescuing my country was a Little-Green-Man from Mars, then sign me up to the Little-Green-Men party. Maybe it's something to do with being English, which by definition means mixed race. The puzzling thing is, I thought you Yanks (sic) were of more mixed race than we Brits? So why the xenophobia when it comes to the nationality of your leader? If a foreigner is good enough to be governor of California, why not president? (Please don't get side-tracked into whether the Governator himself is suitable president material!)

Puzzled!

Hi Dave,

I appreciate your comments. IMO: the central issue here is two-fold. The first is technical, but could have huge consequences. The second is ethical.

First, because the Constitution requires that an individual who would be POTUS be born in the USA, then anyone occupying that office who does not comply with same is usurping the authority granted to the office by the Constitution because they are ineligible to legitimately lay a claim thereto. If it were to be proven that a sitting president was ineligible, even if only for a technicality, the United States would face a Constitutional Crisis. This is no small matter. If Obama was not born here, I would have preferred to find out BEFORE he was elected. He still may have been our best choice (or not) but it can completely unwind the effectiveness of his administration. If, for instance, JFK had not been born here, and it became known to his political rivals while he was in office, he could have been removed or rendered impotent without assassination.

Second, if Obama was not born here (an easy thing to disprove, if false) and became POTUS without disclosing the true location of his birth, then he is in violation of several well established practices, some of which include ethical considerations. Moreover, his having been an expert in Constitutional Law underscores the potential egregiousness of the offense.

Now, perhaps he was born in Hawaii. If so, no problem. But, why not produce the absolute PROOF if that's the case? It is SO damn easy to do!

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I forgot to mention the funniest part of the article, the guy said "In my professional opinion, [Obama] definitely was not born in Hawaii. I can say without a shadow of a doubt that he was not born in Hawaii because there is no legal record of him being born there. If someone called and asked about it, I could not tell them that person was born in the state."

And just what are his “professional” qualifications? He is “a graduate assistant who teaches English at Western Kentucky University in Bowling Green, Ky” and for a few months in 2008 was “a senior elections clerk for the city and county of Honolulu” which despite its august title was a temporary position. Note that he he worked for a municipal not the state elections office.

Greg I think this is silly. How many people can turn up their ORIGINAL birth certificate? The best I can do is some low resolution photocopies that I found among my father`s papers. I asked for new copies from the town clerk years ago when I applied for a business visa and it wasn’t that different from Obama’s COLB i.e.it had much less info than the original.

The state of Hawaii already certified Obama’s COLB and the state’s health director said she and another official verified the birth record. It gives his time of birth to the minute Aug 4 7:26 PM that was a Friday it was registered the next Tuesday. Additionally birth announcements appeared in 2 different newspapers in mid August. And as even WND, the right wing kook site cited by Jack, acknowledged the papers got their info from the state health department. FWIW a teacher reported she spoke to the obstatician who delivered Obama about his birth a few days after the fact.

So I’m not sure what you mean by “absolute proof” if the word of the head of the state`s health department (presumably a Republican like the Governor) isn’t good enough what would a piece of paper issued by her department prove?

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2008/jun/27/obamas-birth-certificate-part-ii/

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=104678

http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/birthcertificate.asp

Len,

I voted for Obama in spite of what I reported above. However, I believe that I (or anyone) should be able to acquire a COPY of a document that PROVES the President was, in fact, born in the United States as is required by the US Constitution for him to be eligible for the office. If, however, the Health Department insists on being anally retentive about the rules as listed on their own website, then I understand why (although it doesn't apply here) they still would refuse to send a copy of the actual document. However, in the spirit of consistency, they should adhere to ALL of their rules and procedures and supply an Official Letter of Verification that such a document exists (Birth Certificate) and confirm the pertinent information.

Why not? I can't think of any good reason to refuse to supply PROOF. They would really only need to do it once and this would be over. That they have failed to do it so far, is suspect.

So this Clinton-McCain supporter supposedly was told in the spring-summer of 2008 by his unnamed supervisor at the electtion office Obama was NOT born in Hawaii but waited till nearly 2 years after the election to say anything.The it turns out that the head of the office said "We don't have access to that kind of records. [There's] no access to birth records." What the (after) Birthers have yet to explain is why, if their claims were true, none of Obama`s rivals for the nomination or in the general election tried to use it. Even the Republican governor of the state says this is nonsense.

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I forgot to mention the funniest part of the article, the guy said "In my professional opinion, [Obama] definitely was not born in Hawaii. I can say without a shadow of a doubt that he was not born in Hawaii because there is no legal record of him being born there. If someone called and asked about it, I could not tell them that person was born in the state."

And just what are his “professional” qualifications? He is “a graduate assistant who teaches English at Western Kentucky University in Bowling Green, Ky” and for a few months in 2008 was “a senior elections clerk for the city and county of Honolulu” which despite its august title was a temporary position. Note that he he worked for a municipal not the state elections office.

Greg I think this is silly. How many people can turn up their ORIGINAL birth certificate? The best I can do is some low resolution photocopies that I found among my father`s papers. I asked for new copies from the town clerk years ago when I applied for a business visa and it wasn’t that different from Obama’s COLB i.e.it had much less info than the original.

The state of Hawaii already certified Obama’s COLB and the state’s health director said she and another official verified the birth record. It gives his time of birth to the minute Aug 4 7:26 PM that was a Friday it was registered the next Tuesday. Additionally birth announcements appeared in 2 different newspapers in mid August. And as even WND, the right wing kook site cited by Jack, acknowledged the papers got their info from the state health department. FWIW a teacher reported she spoke to the obstatician who delivered Obama about his birth a few days after the fact.

So I’m not sure what you mean by “absolute proof” if the word of the head of the state`s health department (presumably a Republican like the Governor) isn’t good enough what would a piece of paper issued by her department prove?

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2008/jun/27/obamas-birth-certificate-part-ii/

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=104678

http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/birthcertificate.asp

Len,

I tend to agree that this is probably no longer a real issue and maybe never was. I personally think he was born here. I just found the process to confirm it to be more awkward thn necessary. Apparently, however, fact check.org personally handled the original Birth Certificate (different from a COLB) which they said is (was) located at his headquarters in Chicago.

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As a non-American, I must admit to being slightly mystified by all the fuss about whether Obama was born in the US or not.

I have no opinion either way on the veracity of his place of birth. I just can't see why it matters. Granted, I'm making the assumption that the US Constitution says that a president must have been born in America. If so, it smacks of constitutionalized racism to me (I'm not referring to the colour of his skin here, just the issue of whether he was born in America). Does it really matter? I care little about where my Prime Minister was born. I do care about what he can do to drag my country out of the seemingly endless mire we're in. To be frank, if the person capable of rescuing my country was a Little-Green-Man from Mars, then sign me up to the Little-Green-Men party. Maybe it's something to do with being English, which by definition means mixed race. The puzzling thing is, I thought you Yanks (sic) were of more mixed race than we Brits? So why the xenophobia when it comes to the nationality of your leader? If a foreigner is good enough to be governor of California, why not president? (Please don't get side-tracked into whether the Governator himself is suitable president material!)

Puzzled!

Hi Dave,

I appreciate your comments. IMO: the central issue here is two-fold. The first is technical, but could have huge consequences. The second is ethical.

First, because the Constitution requires that an individual who would be POTUS be born in the USA, then anyone occupying that office who does not comply with same is usurping the authority granted to the office by the Constitution because they are ineligible to legitimately lay a claim thereto. If it were to be proven that a sitting president was ineligible, even if only for a technicality, the United States would face a Constitutional Crisis. This is no small matter. If Obama was not born here, I would have preferred to find out BEFORE he was elected. He still may have been our best choice (or not) but it can completely unwind the effectiveness of his administration. If, for instance, JFK had not been born here, and it became known to his political rivals while he was in office, he could have been removed or rendered impotent without assassination.

Second, if Obama was not born here (an easy thing to disprove, if false) and became POTUS without disclosing the true location of his birth, then he is in violation of several well established practices, some of which include ethical considerations. Moreover, his having been an expert in Constitutional Law underscores the potential egregiousness of the offense.

Now, perhaps he was born in Hawaii. If so, no problem. But, why not produce the absolute PROOF if that's the case? It is SO damn easy to do!

"If so, no problem. But, why not produce the absolute PROOF if that's the case? It is SO damn easy to do!"

This point makes the whole issue suspect.

If Obama could reveal the birthers to be utter fools by making a simple phone call to the Hawaii Health Department and asking it to send a local newspaper a copy of his original birth certificate, why hasn't he done so?

I am largely agnostic on this issue; however, when the government or someone in a very high position of power declines to provides readily available proof which will not jeopardize national security, I get suspicious.

I applaud people like Jefferson Morley who spend untold time and money pursuing documentation which may shed light on the JFK assassination from a stubborn and recalcitrant government.

The fact that the government goes to such lengths and expense to resist his (and others') efforts mkaes me think it has something to hide.

I am waiting for the great document release of 2017, which I fully expect to be delayed by an emergency request for an extension to Congress and the President; but, the whole notion that the government has withheld this (very possibly relavant) information for 46 years makes me think it is hiding something.

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I'm another non-American who doesn't see what the fuss is about. Even so, I'm unsure why this issue keeps on getting raised.

There seems to be a birth certificate:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/51/BarackObamaCertificationOfLiveBirthHawaii.jpg

There seems to be the original record:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/26/1961_Hawaii_Certificate_Of_Live_Birth.jpg

So what is the problem?

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If Obama could reveal the birthers to be utter fools by making a simple phone call to the Hawaii Health Department and asking it to send a local newspaper a copy of his original birth certificate, why hasn't he done so?

I am largely agnostic on this issue; however, when the government or someone in a very high position of power declines to provides readily available proof which will not jeopardize national security, I get suspicious.

3 documents are relevant to this discusion.

1) The original 1961 birth certificate issued to Obama's parents, it seems to have been lost, not surprising considering all the times he and his family moved.

2) The 1961 copy held by the state health department,

3) The 2008 copy issued by the state health department, there is little doubt it is authentic

The state's Republican health commisioner has alreay said Obama's 2008 birth certificate is authentic and matches the 1961 copy held by her office. Why would she cover for him if this were untrue?

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I'm another non-American who doesn't see what the fuss is about. Even so, I'm unsure why this issue keeps on getting raised.

There seems to be a birth certificate:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/51/BarackObamaCertificationOfLiveBirthHawaii.jpg

There seems to be the original record:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/26/1961_Hawaii_Certificate_Of_Live_Birth.jpg

So what is the problem?

Evan,

The first image you linked is to his "Certification of Live Birth" -- THIS IS NOT the same thing as a Birth Certificate. It isn't a technicality either. It's not the same. My understanding is that you can't even get a Passport by presenting a COLB--it is NOT the same thing. I can't really tell you what a COLB is for--but it has limited utility. The second image to which you linked is a Certificate of Birth, but all identifying information is redacted! Unless I missed something, it is of no use at all. It even says both parents are caucasion, too!

Like I said, this is probably a non-issue, but I don't see what's so hard about providing PROOF. Even if I didn't have a copy of my own original, I highly doubt it would be this difficult to get one. My wife's was misplaced/lost a few years ago. She sent to the State of New York because we needed a passport. They promptly provided one. It was NOT a "Certification of Live Birth" either, it was a duplicate Birth Certificate.

Edited by Greg Burnham
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If Obama could reveal the birthers to be utter fools by making a simple phone call to the Hawaii Health Department and asking it to send a local newspaper a copy of his original birth certificate, why hasn't he done so?

I am largely agnostic on this issue; however, when the government or someone in a very high position of power declines to provides readily available proof which will not jeopardize national security, I get suspicious.

3 documents are relevant to this discusion.

1) The original 1961 birth certificate issued to Obama's parents, it seems to have been lost, not surprising considering all the times he and his family moved.

2) The 1961 copy held by the state health department,

3) The 2008 copy issued by the state health department, there is little doubt it is authentic

The state's Republican health commisioner has alreay said Obama's 2008 birth certificate is authentic and matches the 1961 copy held by her office. Why would she cover for him if this were untrue?

Why wouldn't he release it if it is true?

And I remember when the issue was first raised that he visited Hawaii to see his grandmother and that that trip was immediately followed by a statement from the governor's office (I think to the effect that a copy of a birth certificate can only be made public with the consent of the individual).

And I don't accept the fact that the Republican governor must be trusted because she is a Republican and Barack is a Democrat.

Republicans have shown themselves to be plenty capable of being bribed.

I don't know where he was born, but I question why someone would not release something that he could do with a phone call if doing so would make a controversy go away and his detractors look foolish.

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I'm another non-American who doesn't see what the fuss is about. Even so, I'm unsure why this issue keeps on getting raised.

There seems to be a birth certificate:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/51/BarackObamaCertificationOfLiveBirthHawaii.jpg

There seems to be the original record:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/26/1961_Hawaii_Certificate_Of_Live_Birth.jpg

So what is the problem?

Evan,

The first image you linked is to his "Certification of Live Birth" -- THIS IS NOT the same thing as a Birth Certificate. It isn't a technicality either. It's not the same. My understanding is that you can't even get a Passport by presenting a COLB--it is NOT the same thing. I can't really tell you what a COLB is for--but it has limited utility. The second image to which you linked is a Certificate of Birth, but all identifying information is redacted! Unless I missed something, it is of no use at all. It even says both parents are caucasion, too!

Like I said, this is probably a non-issue, but I don't see what's so hard about providing PROOF. Even if I didn't have a copy of my own original, I highly doubt it would be this difficult to get one. My wife's was misplaced/lost a few years ago. She sent to the State of New York because we needed a passport. They promptly provided one. It was NOT a "Certification of Live Birth" either, it was a duplicate Birth Certificate.

So much of this is fuelled by disinfo a “Certificate of Live Birth” is what Hawaii calls birth certificates it can be used to get a passport and whatever birth certificates are used for. They seemingly no longer issue “long forms” of the COLB with info like the name of the hospital and attending physician. The only other document that could be released would be a copy of what the state has on file but since they converted to all electronic files years ago I doubt that would satisfy the “birthers”

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html

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If Obama could reveal the birthers to be utter fools by making a simple phone call to the Hawaii Health Department and asking it to send a local newspaper a copy of his original birth certificate, why hasn't he done so?

I am largely agnostic on this issue; however, when the government or someone in a very high position of power declines to provides readily available proof which will not jeopardize national security, I get suspicious.

3 documents are relevant to this discusion.

1) The original 1961 birth certificate issued to Obama's parents, it seems to have been lost, not surprising considering all the times he and his family moved.

2) The 1961 copy held by the state health department,

3) The 2008 copy issued by the state health department, there is little doubt it is authentic

The state's Republican health commisioner has alreay said Obama's 2008 birth certificate is authentic and matches the 1961 copy held by her office. Why would she cover for him if this were untrue?

Why wouldn't he release it if it is true?

Release what?

And I remember when the issue was first raised that he visited Hawaii to see his grandmother and that that trip was immediately followed by a statement from the governor's office (I think to the effect that a copy of a birth certificate can only be made public with the consent of the individual).

They released it to Obama he put a scan online and made it available for examination.

And I don't accept the fact that the Republican governor must be trusted because she is a Republican and Barack is a Democrat.

Republicans have shown themselves to be plenty capable of being bribed.

Then you can’t be satisfied. If you entertain the notion that a Republican governor who campaigned for Bush,McCain and Palin as well as two of her appointees were bribed to protect an inelligible Democratic presidential candidate/president then I doubt any documents they issued would quell your doubts

I don't know where he was born, but I question why someone would not release something that he could do with a phone call if doing so would make a controversy go away and his detractors look foolish.

COLBs are only released to family members who fill out and mail in a form with $ 10. Obama`s was released

Edited by Len Colby
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