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Altgens confirms a shot to the neck


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at 24 seconds into this interview Altgens says "struck in the neck... the first shot" :blink:

and later determined by WC the photo (#6) was 2 seconds after the shot was fired...

hmmmm 255 - 36.6 = 218/219

So does Altgens actually see JFK hit in the neck as he prepares to take this photo?

His comment suggests so given how he backtracks about the GK shot later in the interview.

DJ

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at 24 seconds into this interview Altgens says "struck in the neck... the first shot" :blink:

and later determined by WC the photo (#6) was 2 seconds after the shot was fired...

hmmmm 255 - 36.6 = 218/219

So does Altgens actually see JFK hit in the neck as he prepares to take this photo?

His comment suggests so given how he backtracks about the GK shot later in the interview.

DJ

http://www.jfkballistics.com/fsfhbj.html

I don't really think he is backpedaling. I think he is clarifying. He says the President was knocked forward. Indicating a hit from behind. I note he says that the President was knocked forward, out of a depression in the seat.

Edited by Mike Williams
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Sounds an awful lot like the "company line" here to me Mike. The AP quote is almost a dead giveaway... I had it from another thread, I think on Lancer but the effect is.. "I thought the shots came from across the street until I found out later they didn't."

The fact that he completely ignores the backward motion of the man is a surprise... but from his angle I do not know what it woudl ahve looked like to him.

Themost telling for me once again is the "sounded like a firecracker" comment. Firecrackers are usually at ground level (same with the motocycle backfire analogy) which to ME suggests a street level shot... ala the GK to the throat.

What is your take on the shot that hits him in the throat... the first shot as he calls it.

DJ

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Sounds an awful lot like the "company line" here to me Mike. The AP quote is almost a dead giveaway... I had it from another thread, I think on Lancer but the effect is.. "I thought the shots came from across the street until I found out later they didn't."

The fact that he completely ignores the backward motion of the man is a surprise... but from his angle I do not know what it woudl ahve looked like to him.

Themost telling for me once again is the "sounded like a firecracker" comment. Firecrackers are usually at ground level (same with the motocycle backfire analogy) which to ME suggests a street level shot... ala the GK to the throat.

What is your take on the shot that hits him in the throat... the first shot as he calls it.

DJ

I have never been in the plaza during a shooting test, so therefore I have to take the word of those who have. From all accounts it is very difficult to determine direction.

One thing you really need to know is that the backward movement can be attributed to many things, but it certainly cannot be attributed to a frontal shot. The laws of physics prove this well.

The one thing that kills this idea is that we know there was no bullet that remained in the head. So any shot had to be transiting and not just perforating. The energy transfers from transiting shots is very very small, in ANY type of projectile. This has been proven time and again by physics. In fact I did a post some time ago showing how many weapons would need to fire to simulate the impact of just 110 ft lbs, that of a human punch (average punch). Ill see if I can dig that out. I must also say that my calculations were very conservative and very likely the energy would be far less, as in non elastic transfer most of the energy is consumed by heat/deformation.

I think the throat has two possibilities.

1 the SBT

2 Fragment from the head shot is completely logical.

This is in no way an entry wound. Of that we can be certain.

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You're going to have to be a bit more specific than that mike...

Why cant it be an entry wound?

And please tell me what a Mercury bullet would do striking the right temple of the man...

The cloud on the xray and the zillions of tiny particle suggest it was not a FMJ bullet...

or am I wrong... :tomatoes

DJ

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You're going to have to be a bit more specific than that mike...

Why cant it be an entry wound?

And please tell me what a Mercury bullet would do striking the right temple of the man...

The cloud on the xray and the zillions of tiny particle suggest it was not a FMJ bullet...

or am I wrong... :tomatoes

DJ

David,

For one it has no exit, which clearly, in soft tissue of the neck, it certainly would have. Another is position. There is no tenable shooting location for this.

Mercury bullets are far better left to James Bond. Mercury eats lead, its a known fact. Even under the best of circumstances these bullets have a very small shelf life. But, in theory the bullet would stop rapidly inside the skull, as the mercury would cause an expanding cloud. Mercury does not and would not create a field of tiny fragments, it would create a moderate to dense cloud of mercury in the head. This would be obvious a mile away.

As for FMJ bullets there are many examples of both fragmenting and remaining stable.

One thing that always strikes me is what Dr. Petty had to say.

"Dr. Charles Petty of the HSCA forensic pathology panel

responded to Dr. Wecht's frangible-bullet theory in his testimony

before the committee. [Quoting Petty:] "I happen to be the coauthor of

the only paper that has ever been written about the wounding

capabilities of frangible bullets. .... Such bullets and the breakup

products of [these] bullets are easy to detect in X-rays. There are no

such fragments in the X-ray of the late president's head. There was no

frangible bullet fired. I might also add that frangible bullets are

produced in .22 caliber loads and they are not produced [for] larger

weapons."

This to me excludes the notion of a fragmenting bullet, both pre-fragmented by design, and a fragmenting FMJ. I have yet to find a convincing argument for the idea that this bullet broke up in the head.

Mike

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You're going to have to be a bit more specific than that mike...

Why cant it be an entry wound?

And please tell me what a Mercury bullet would do striking the right temple of the man...

The cloud on the xray and the zillions of tiny particle suggest it was not a FMJ bullet...

or am I wrong... :tomatoes

DJ

David,

For one it has no exit, which clearly, in soft tissue of the neck, it certainly would have.

Not if JFK were hit with an unconventional round -- which is what the autopsists

suspected and the neck x-ray confirms.

Another is position. There is no tenable shooting location for this.

Factually incorrect. Black Dog Man at Z190. Witness Rosemary Willis described

this individual as a "conspicuous" person who "disappeared the next instant."

A HSCA analysis of the Willis 5 photo reported a "very distinct straight-line

feature" in the "region of his hands," consistent with a shooter.

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/reportvols/vol12/html/HSCA_Vol12_0006a.htm

The SBT is physically impossible given JFK's proven T3 back wound.

The Tague Frag Theory is impossible given the fact that a bullet fragment needed

to travel 85 yards on a straight-line trajectory into the teeth of a hard swirling

wind and still retain an impact velocity sufficient to shatter concrete and wound

a man standing several yards away.

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You're going to have to be a bit more specific than that mike...

Why cant it be an entry wound?

And please tell me what a Mercury bullet would do striking the right temple of the man...

The cloud on the xray and the zillions of tiny particle suggest it was not a FMJ bullet...

or am I wrong... :tomatoes

DJ

David,

For one it has no exit, which clearly, in soft tissue of the neck, it certainly would have.

Not if JFK were hit with an unconventional round -- which is what the autopsists

suspected and the neck x-ray confirms.

Another is position. There is no tenable shooting location for this.

Factually incorrect. Black Dog Man at Z190. Witness Rosemary Willis described

this individual as a "conspicuous" person who "disappeared the next instant."

A HSCA analysis of the Willis 5 photo reported a "very distinct straight-line

feature" in the "region of his hands," consistent with a shooter.

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/reportvols/vol12/html/HSCA_Vol12_0006a.htm

The SBT is physically impossible given JFK's proven T3 back wound.

The Tague Frag Theory is impossible given the fact that a bullet fragment needed

to travel 85 yards on a straight-line trajectory into the teeth of a hard swirling

wind and still retain an impact velocity sufficient to shatter concrete and wound

a man standing several yards away.

I love that one! It never loses its humor!

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You're going to have to be a bit more specific than that mike...

Why cant it be an entry wound?

And please tell me what a Mercury bullet would do striking the right temple of the man...

The cloud on the xray and the zillions of tiny particle suggest it was not a FMJ bullet...

or am I wrong... :tomatoes

DJ

David,

For one it has no exit, which clearly, in soft tissue of the neck, it certainly would have.

Not if JFK were hit with an unconventional round -- which is what the autopsists

suspected and the neck x-ray confirms.

Another is position. There is no tenable shooting location for this.

Factually incorrect. Black Dog Man at Z190. Witness Rosemary Willis described

this individual as a "conspicuous" person who "disappeared the next instant."

A HSCA analysis of the Willis 5 photo reported a "very distinct straight-line

feature" in the "region of his hands," consistent with a shooter.

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/reportvols/vol12/html/HSCA_Vol12_0006a.htm

The SBT is physically impossible given JFK's proven T3 back wound.

The Tague Frag Theory is impossible given the fact that a bullet fragment needed

to travel 85 yards on a straight-line trajectory into the teeth of a hard swirling

wind and still retain an impact velocity sufficient to shatter concrete and wound

a man standing several yards away.

I love that one! It never loses its humor!

I think the Tague Frag theory is hilarious. Care to demonstrate how a

bullet fragment maintains a straight-line trajectory into the teeth of a hard

swirling wind?

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You're going to have to be a bit more specific than that mike...

Why cant it be an entry wound?

And please tell me what a Mercury bullet would do striking the right temple of the man...

The cloud on the xray and the zillions of tiny particle suggest it was not a FMJ bullet...

or am I wrong... :tomatoes

DJ

David,

For one it has no exit, which clearly, in soft tissue of the neck, it certainly would have.

Not if JFK were hit with an unconventional round -- which is what the autopsists

suspected and the neck x-ray confirms.

Another is position. There is no tenable shooting location for this.

Factually incorrect. Black Dog Man at Z190. Witness Rosemary Willis described

this individual as a "conspicuous" person who "disappeared the next instant."

A HSCA analysis of the Willis 5 photo reported a "very distinct straight-line

feature" in the "region of his hands," consistent with a shooter.

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/reportvols/vol12/html/HSCA_Vol12_0006a.htm

The SBT is physically impossible given JFK's proven T3 back wound.

The Tague Frag Theory is impossible given the fact that a bullet fragment needed

to travel 85 yards on a straight-line trajectory into the teeth of a hard swirling

wind and still retain an impact velocity sufficient to shatter concrete and wound

a man standing several yards away.

I love that one! It never loses its humor!

I think the Tague Frag theory is hilarious. Care to demonstrate how a

bullet fragment maintains a straight-line trajectory into the teeth of a hard

swirling wind?

You mean a 13 mph head wind? You mean like that kind of wind? By the way this was hardly a gale.

A 5 grain fragment would have been over 900 fps when it reached Tague.

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You mean a 13 mph head wind? You mean like that kind of wind? By the way this was hardly a gale.

I'm curious where you got the 13mph calculation.

The Muchmore film shows the wind coming from the southwest. But up on the

corner of Elm and Houston DPD officer Marrion Baker was almost knocked over

on his motorcycle by wind which came from the north.

Clearly the wind in Dealey Plaza was swirling. Care to explain how this 5 grain

fragment -- less than a third of a gram! -- maintained a straight-line trajectory

into the teeth of a hard swirling wind for 85 yards?

A 5 grain fragment would have been over 900 fps when it reached Tague.

Where do these values come from?

Edited by Cliff Varnell
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at 24 seconds into this interview Altgens says "struck in the neck... the first shot" :blink:

and later determined by WC the photo (#6) was 2 seconds after the shot was fired...

hmmmm 255 - 36.6 = 218/219

So does Altgens actually see JFK hit in the neck as he prepares to take this photo?

His comment suggests so given how he backtracks about the GK shot later in the interview.

DJ

I don't think Altgens was able to see JFK very well when that shot was fired and it's hard to imagine how he could have known which direction the bullet was traveling in.

However, his recollection of JFK's reaction when the limo was almost at his position is IMO, much more important.

"He was at an angle but when it hit him, it seemed to have just lodged--it seemed as if he were hung up on a seat button or something like that. It knocked him just enough forward that he came right on down. There was flesh particles that flew out of the side of his head in my direction from where I was standing, so much so that it indicated to me that the shot came out of the left side of his head."

That could only have been the result of a second headshot, which came from the front-right, and blew material to Kennedy's left-rear.

Edited by Robert Harris
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This whole second head shot business is rather academic. The head shot entering JFKs right temple ( Z 313)at the hairline, causing the exit wound at the back of his head ,occipital bone; where the Harper fragment fits in), is enough to explain the original head injuries seen by the Parkland staff and to prove (at last) the existence of a second shooter, to debunk the Lone Nut (and SB) Theories as a Cover up, and therefore convince everybody with a brain (still) in his head, that there was in fact a conspiracy...Josh Thompson SIX SECONDS... started with this second head shot nonsense in an attempt to declare the oddities of the Zappi Film genuine...

Is the 18 mio $ Zappi film a fake: yes

Was there a second head shot: no

Is (Luce-slave)Thompson a pseudo Cter? yes...

Is (Kodak-CIA-man)Rolli Zavada another Thompson? Yes.

Who is the greatest living authority in the research community today?- Doug Horne

Are Horne and Mack like fire and water? yes

KK

Edited by Karl Kinaski
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