Inaction in Dealey

[Peter McGuire]

Amazing bunch; those United States Secret Service Agents on "protective detail" November 22, 1963!

"Dr. Charles Crenshaw’s Description of Bizarre Events

On November 22, 1963, Dr. Charles A. Crenshaw was a thirty-year-old attending physician at Parkland Memorial Hospital. Years later Crenshaw wrote his recollections of pandemonium mixed with grief and naked aggression at the hospital where Kennedy was taken immediately after being shot. The following is an excerpt from Dr. Crenshaw’s book, JFK: Conspiracy of Silence (1992):

Once we reached the bottom of the stairwell, we opened the door and rushed into the emergency room. There is always a commotion around trauma, but what I saw was sheer bedlam. As we flew by the nurses’ station, I yelled, "Which room?" A nurse with tears streaming down her face raised one finger.

I looked to my left and saw a man in a suit running. To my amazement, another man in a suit jumped in his path and smashed a Thompson submachine gun across his chest and face. The first man’s eyes immediately turned glassy, and he fell against a gray tile wall, and slithered to the floor unconscious. When I heard that gun slam against his face, I just knew the man’s jaw was broken. *Normally, I would have rushed over and treated the poor guy, but the president of the United States was waiting for me, and his condition was worse than broken bones. I was to learn later that the man with the gun was a Secret Service agent, and the one who had been hit was an FBI agent.

(C. Crenshaw, et al, JFK: Conspiracy of Silence, 1992, p. 75)

Kennedy was dead at 12:30PM and had even been waiting in the limousine before he was "rushed in."

They should have treated the assaulted FBI Agent.

Who did this? Kellerman, who did NOTHING but turn around and look at JFK, when Kennedy was obviously hit and needed his help!

Great bunch, these Agents in Dealy.

*“Normally” has no place in the case of the public murder of President John F. Kennedy, since things like this are buried and dismissed routinely.

Edited July 18, 2010 by Peter McGuire

[William Kelly]

Amazing bunch; those United States Secret Service Agents on "protective detail" November 22, 1963!

"Dr. Charles Crenshaw’s Description of Bizarre Events

On November 22, 1963, Dr. Charles A. Crenshaw was a thirty-year-old attending physician at Parkland Memorial Hospital. Years later Crenshaw wrote his recollections of pandemonium mixed with grief and naked aggression at the hospital where Kennedy was taken immediately after being shot. The following is an excerpt from Dr. Crenshaw’s book, JFK: Conspiracy of Silence (1992):

Once we reached the bottom of the stairwell, we opened the door and rushed into the emergency room. There is always a commotion around trauma, but what I saw was sheer bedlam. As we flew by the nurses’ station, I yelled, "Which room?" A nurse with tears streaming down her face raised one finger.

I looked to my left and saw a man in a suit running. To my amazement, another man in a suit jumped in his path and smashed a Thompson submachine gun across his chest and face. The first man’s eyes immediately turned glassy, and he fell against a gray tile wall, and slithered to the floor unconscious. When I heard that gun slam against his face, I just knew the man’s jaw was broken. *Normally, I would have rushed over and treated the poor guy, but the president of the United States was waiting for me, and his condition was worse than broken bones. I was to learn later that the man with the gun was a Secret Service agent, and the one who had been hit was an FBI agent.

(C. Crenshaw, et al, JFK: Conspiracy of Silence, 1992, p. 75)

Kennedy was dead at 12:30PM and had even been waiting in the limousine before he was "rushed in."

They should have treated the assaulted FBI Agent.

Who did this? Kellerman, who did NOTHING but turn around and look at JFK, when Kennedy was obviously hit and needed his help!

Great bunch, these Agents in Dealy.

*“Normally” has no place in the case of the public murder of President John F. Kennedy, since things like this are buried and dismissed routinely.

There are numerous reports of this incident happening, but there are few reports identifying the agents involved, and at least one report that misidenties the FBI agent.

Can anyone identify the two agents - SS agent with Thompson and FBI agent with broken jaw?

And what do they say in their reports of the incident?

Thanks,

BK

[David Andrews]

I looked to my left and saw a man in a suit running. To my amazement, another man in a suit jumped in his path and smashed a Thompson submachine gun across his chest and face. The first man’s eyes immediately turned glassy, and he fell against a gray tile wall, and slithered to the floor unconscious. When I heard that gun slam against his face, I just knew the man’s jaw was broken. *Normally, I would have rushed over and treated the poor guy, but the president of the United States was waiting for me, and his condition was worse than broken bones. I was to learn later that the man with the gun was a Secret Service agent, and the one who had been hit was an FBI agent.

(C. Crenshaw, et al, JFK: Conspiracy of Silence, 1992, p. 75)

Can we understand from this a larger interpretation of SS policy toward FBI on that day (and in the planning for the post-assassination op)? Or was it just tension and shock taking duty too far?

SS was manhandling people that day. Why, in each case? Organizational shock, or other?

Edited July 18, 2010 by David Andrews

[Lee Forman]

There are numerous reports of this incident happening, but there are few reports identifying the agents involved, and at least one report that misidenties the FBI agent.

Can anyone identify the two agents - SS agent with Thompson and FBI agent with broken jaw?

And what do they say in their reports of the incident?

Thanks,

BK

This has already been covered elsewhere, including the action taken against the individual in question - the one attempting to make the phone call - as I recall he was demoted by Hoover - and there is a doc to that effect. Memory is telling me that this scenario may have been capture by Vince - it's of no consequence.

But Peter's note is well taken and I also like to point it out as often as possible:

SS were at fault in every possible way - from their late hours drinking hard liquor, the allowance of route despite publication, blaming the bubbletop and lack of protection on the alleged unconfirmed words of a dead man, the dogleg, the line-up, the lack of a reaction, Roberts pulling back Ready [plus his lies and his behavior at Parkland], braking the car, no one jumping out of their cars in DP, the race to get the corpse to the hospital - all without any consequence.

The write-ups that followed championed these men as the ultimate warriors - brave to foolhardy, and absolved them of all blame - the height of journalistic hypocrisy.

Cowards and fools, deserving of a permanent record of historical shame. Buffoons and a changing of the guard - traitors and cowards. Primary assignment - protect the Commander in Chief at all costs - it wasn't simply a failure, it was a total failure. All pensions should have been withheld. All records should have been made public. All involved in the drinking episodes the night prior should have been terminated - HOWEVER, what we have here is a facinating precedent - the only high profile job one can have in the US aside from Weatherman - where you can be totally wrong yet suffer no consequences, is as an SS agent - this should be clear to anyone considering the job - you screw up and the President gets killed, you are not to blame, and there will always be the next President that you can work for - so what's the big deal.

Cowards and traitors - and with the subsequent gag order - not one that would do what was right.

[Peter McGuire]

Are you saying Lee , that the FBI Agent who was assaulted by Kellerman was reprimanded by Hoover?

Cowards and fools, deserving of a permanent record of historical shame. Buffoons and a changing of the guard - traitors and cowards. Primary assignment - protect the Commander in Chief at all costs - it wasn't simply a failure, it was a total failure. All pensions should have been withheld. All records should have been made public. All involved in the drinking episodes the night prior should have been terminated...

In China, officially only until 1910, "Ling Chi" or slow slicing was the punishment for treason. (and matricide) Ling Chi, often erroneously called "death of a thousand cuts" left the victim a mere torso, with the executioner purposely inflicting non-fatal cuts while cutting off body parts piece by piece.

Edited July 18, 2010 by Peter McGuire

[Mark Knight]

[edited]

Edited July 19, 2010 by Mark Knight

[William Kelly]

There are numerous reports of this incident happening, but there are few reports identifying the agents involved, and at least one report that misidenties the FBI agent.

Can anyone identify the two agents - SS agent with Thompson and FBI agent with broken jaw?

And what do they say in their reports of the incident?

Thanks,

BK

This has already been covered elsewhere, including the action taken against the individual in question - the one attempting to make the phone call - as I recall he was demoted by Hoover - and there is a doc to that effect. Memory is telling me that this scenario may have been capture by Vince - it's of no consequence.

But Peter's note is well taken and I also like to point it out as often as possible:

SS were at fault in every possible way - from their late hours drinking hard liquor, the allowance of route despite publication, blaming the bubbletop and lack of protection on the alleged unconfirmed words of a dead man, the dogleg, the line-up, the lack of a reaction, Roberts pulling back Ready [plus his lies and his behavior at Parkland], braking the car, no one jumping out of their cars in DP, the race to get the corpse to the hospital - all without any consequence.

The write-ups that followed championed these men as the ultimate warriors - brave to foolhardy, and absolved them of all blame - the height of journalistic hypocrisy.

Cowards and fools, deserving of a permanent record of historical shame. Buffoons and a changing of the guard - traitors and cowards. Primary assignment - protect the Commander in Chief at all costs - it wasn't simply a failure, it was a total failure. All pensions should have been withheld. All records should have been made public. All involved in the drinking episodes the night prior should have been terminated - HOWEVER, what we have here is a facinating precedent - the only high profile job one can have in the US aside from Weatherman - where you can be totally wrong yet suffer no consequences, is as an SS agent - this should be clear to anyone considering the job - you screw up and the President gets killed, you are not to blame, and there will always be the next President that you can work for - so what's the big deal.

Cowards and traitors - and with the subsequent gag order - not one that would do what was right.

Hi Lee,

So we've covered this all before but it's of no consequence that a SS agent violently broke the jaw of an FBI agent with a Thompson submachine gun?

Someone says the SS agent was Kellerman. If that's so, then Kellerman should mention this incident in his report.

Who was the FBI agent again?

And what does he say in his report?

There was a lot of antimosity between the FBI and SS, which is illustrated in the official FBI report authored by Hover himself, that responds to SS allegations, including the allegation that the FBI didn't supply the SS with the names of any individual who could possibly pose as a security threat in the Dallas area. Hover says that would be Norman Lee Elkins, whose threat to the President was reported by an undercover informant in Denton, Texas, and investigated by the FBI and Dallas PD (Gannaway), and a photo provided to SS of Elkins. But I can't find much on Elkins or the photo among the records.

The FBI liason to the SS at the time of the assassination was Special Agent Orrin Bartlett, who had previously inspected the limo in the SS garage and found bullet fragment on the floor, and then interviewed Adele Edisen along with SAICNO SS John W. Rice, in New Orleans on Sunday, Nov. 25, and after calling in a report re: Jose Rivera, flew together to Dallas.

Certainly the two agencies kept track of what each was responsible for doing and actually doing, and had to either learn to work together, or hang together for treason.

I'd like to read an official report from either SS or FBI about the violent encounter between the SS and FBI agent at Parkland, and positively identify both men.

BK

[Mark Knight]

It is my opinion that Dr. Crenshaw was possibly mistaken in his identification of the rifle in question. As the AR-15 was relatively new in 1963, the rifle used by the SS [particularly the one photographed in the hands of SS agent George Hickey in the period right after the assassination] was probably misidentified as a "Tommy gun" [which, in my youth, was often portrayed with a drum magazine in Hollywood gangster flicks]. But other than Dr. Crenshaw, does anyone else identify the rifle on the scene as a Thompson?

[Peter McGuire]

Can anyone identify the two agents - SS agent with Thompson and FBI agent with broken jaw?

And what do they say in their reports of the incident?

Thanks,

BK

...."the one attempting to make the phone call - as I recall he was demoted by Hoover - and there is a doc to that effect."

I too , would love to get ahold of that document.

Edited July 19, 2010 by Peter McGuire

[William Kelly]

It is my opinion that Dr. Crenshaw was possibly mistaken in his identification of the rifle in question. As the AR-15 was relatively new in 1963, the rifle used by the SS [particularly the one photographed in the hands of SS agent George Hickey in the period right after the assassination] was probably misidentified as a "Tommy gun" [which, in my youth, was often portrayed with a drum magazine in Hollywood gangster flicks]. But other than Dr. Crenshaw, does anyone else identify the rifle on the scene as a Thompson?

Here's my father, Camden detective, with a Thompson at the scene of the 13 murders by Spree Killer Howard Unruh, a WWII vet who went nuts and killed his neighbors.

http://kellyscafenj.blogspot.com/2009/09/september-6-1949-cramer-hill-camden.html

Unruh captured. He never had a trial and died in NJ state psychiatric prison last year.

http://kellyscafenj.blogspot.com/2009/10/howard-unruh-rip.html

I'd still like to find out the name of the SS agent who struck the FBI agent at Parkland and identify the SS agent's weapon.

BK