Dallas Mayors

[William Kelly]

By MICHAEL GRANBERRY/ The Dallas Morning News

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/localnews/125th/newsevents/stories/072310dnmetjfkcityofhate125.1136b7f9.html

Ten years after the assassination of President John F. Kennedy, then-Dallas Mayor Wes Wise was attending the United States Conference of Mayors. Their meetings over, the mayors were having drinks when one of them wisecracked, “How does it feel to be the mayor of the city that killed the president?”

“I was so infuriated,” Wise says. “I came close to striking him, but held my tongue.”

The man later apologized, but Wise and others who lived through Dallas’ darkest moment know that the outspoken critic was hardly alone, in his anger or his rudeness. Unlike Los Angeles, where Robert Kennedy was killed in 1968, and other assassination datelines, Dallas got branded with an ignominious label: “City of Hate.”

Philip Jonsson also felt the sting. His father, the late J. Erik Jonsson, became mayor of Dallas soon after the assassination and spearheaded a legacy that made radical improvements in the city’s infrastructure while repairing its battered image. For those reasons, many perceive Jonsson to have been the city’s best mayor.

In the years after Nov. 22, 1963, Philip, now 85, says, “You learned not to say ‘Dallas’ when the New York cabbie asked you where you were from.”

Fate and the mayor's office

Ironically, The Jonssons had moved to Dallas from New Jersey in 1934. J. Erik Jonsson, who played a critical role in the development of Texas Instruments and the founding of the University of Texas at Dallas, hailed from Brooklyn, N.Y.

He had lived in Dallas for several months before his family joined him. Philip remembers he and his mother and younger brother rolling into Union Station on a late-night train and being told by his dad that Dallas “.‘will be our home. We will always live here.’ I took that as prophecy, because they always did.”

His father, says Philip Jonsson he says, “fell in love with Dallas,” so in the days and weeks after the president’s assassination death in Dealey Plaza, Jonsson “deplored the bad public image Dallas was getting and the fact that city leaders were pointing fingers at each other.”

The truth is, without the assassination, Jonsson might never have become mayor. He was appointed tapped by the powerful Dallas Citizens Council to fill the vacancy of outgoing Mayor Earle Cabell, who ran for Congress because of concerns over the city’s image.

“They asked Dad to pull the city back together,” Philip says. “He didn’t accept right away, because Mother didn’t want him to do it. But they both finally realized how important it was.”

Cabell ran against and defeated Republican Rep. Bruce Alger, who had engineered an ugly incident involving Democratic vice presidential contender Lyndon Johnson and his wife, Lady Bird, during JFK’s 1960 campaign against Richard Nixon and the GOP. Angry protesters confronted the Johnsons inside the Baker Hotel, then continued to harass, even spit at them, in a slow, confrontational walk across Commerce Street to the Adolphus hotel. Once inside, the abuse escalated, until the Johnsons sought refuge in the grand ballroom.

As the Johnsons attempted to cross Commerce Street in front of the Adolphus hotel, an angry, Alger-led mob attacked them verbally. It took them more than an hour to move only a few feet, but once inside the hotel, the abuse continued.

The Adolphus incident became a cornerstone moment in the assassination’s aftermath and helped unravel, three years later, Alger’s once-thriving political career.

Darwin Payne, 73, professor emeritus of communications at Southern Methodist University, and a Dallas author and historian who covered the assassination as a Dallas Times Herald reporter, remembers Alger as a “very doctrinaire” individual who, despite his handsome, anchorman looks, embodied Dallas’ right-wing hysteria.

Although he, too, was Republican and conservative, Jonsson was “far more inclusive,” Payne says, “and the assassination helped change the minds of a whole lot of people who had never been part of the process. Suddenly, their viewpoints were heard.”

Jonsson instituted the benchmark Goals for Dallas program in 1964, launching social service agencies to help the poor and minorities, air condition the city’s schools, promote a new I.M. Pei-designed City Hall and vastly upgrade the city’s transportation, library and community college systems. Dallas’ main library is now the J. Erik Jonsson Central Library.

Right-wing hysteria

Wes Wise, now 81, was a TV sports anchor in 1963, allowing him an up close and personal look at the “City of Hate.” Now 81, Wise later entered politics and served as mayor from 1971 to 1976, succeeding Jonsson. As with Jonsson, it might not have happened, absent the assassination. He too sought to restore the city’s image.

“Let’s face it: At the time, Dallas was considered a hotbed of right-wing hysteria,” says Wise, co-author of the 2004 memoir, When the News Went Live: Dallas 1963. “It served as the regional headquarters of the John Birch Society, and Gen. Edwin Walker — whom many considered a far-out extremist — had moved here. You might remember that Lee Harvey Oswald took a shot at him, too. H.L. Hunt’s right-wing radio program originated here. So, it was hardly a haven for liberals.”

During Wise’s days as a KRLD-TV notyet KDFW-TV, (Channel 4) sports anchor, on-air personalities were, by necessity, widely versatile, playing several roles in a single day. A month before President Kennedy’s visit, Wise drove to a small theater near what is now the Dallas Convention Center to cover a speech by Kennedy’s ambassador to the United Nations, Adlai Stevenson.

Like the Adolphus crowd that greeted Lyndon and Lady Bird Johnson, Stevenson encountered a rowdy band of anti-U.N. hecklers. They booed and heckled jeered Stevenson until he said, “Do I have to come all the way from Illinois to teach Texans good manners?” That, Wise says, prompted the crowd “to erupt in cheers in his favor.”

After the speech, armed with a hand-held camera shooting 16 mm film, Wise grabbed footage of a woman striking Stevenson over the head with a placard. “The next day,” he says, “it became a huge story on Walter Cronkite’s evening news.”

In the ensuing weeks, Stevenson urged the president not to travel to Dallas, where he was greeted on the morning of his arrival by a hostile, full-page ad in The Dallas Morning News. Among the local businessmen who paid for the $1,465 ad were Texas oilmen Nelson Bunker Hunt and Harvey R. “Bum” Bright, who later bought the Dallas Cowboys.

“We’re heading into nut country today,” Kennedy said to his wife, Jacqueline Bouvier Kennedy, as he showed her the ad, according to JFK aide and close friend Kenneth O’Donnell, who shared his recollections in the 1970 memoir, Johnny, We Hardly Knew Ye. O’Donnell said the president then added these remarks: “But Jackie, if somebody wants to shoot me from a window with a rifle, nobody can stop it, so why worry about it?”

Wise later testified at the murder trial of Jack Ruby, who gunned down assassination suspect Lee Harvey Oswald in the basement of the Dallas police station two days after the president was killed.

The day after the assassination, Wise went to the Texas School Book Depository, where Oswald had worked, and ran into Ruby, who as a Commerce Street strip club owner was known by many. Ruby expressed concern that the prosecution might require the president’s grieving widow, Jacqueline Bouvier Kennedy, to return to Dallas as a witness if Oswald were put on trial.

Both the defense and prosecution called Wise as a witness in Ruby’s trial.

All riveting events, but the former mayor’s most profound memory came the morning after the assassination.

He awoke with a start and said to his wife, “I think I had a nightmare.” She replied sadly, “I had the same nightmare … but I’m afraid it’s true.”

[William Kelly]

Hi Bill,

Interesting story about Wes Wise. We mustn't forget that it was Wise who also broke the story of T.F. White.

Mack Pate, who worked with White as an auto mechanic, passed the details to Wise of a license plate number of a Ford Falcon that White saw parked in the El Chico restaurant parking lot across from the garage minutes after the arrest of LHO in the Texas Theater eight blocks away.

White went up to the car and saw who he believed later was Lee Harvey Oswald. He took down the registration number PP 4537.

When Wise was given this information on December 4th 1963 he pursued it. He found out the plate belonged to a 1957 Plymouth in the name of Carl Amos Mather in Garland, Texas. Mather was good friends with J.D. Tippit. He also worked for Collins Radio that had many contracts with the CIA.

Mather later gave testimony to the HSCA but only on the condition that he be "immune from prosecution." The report heads off this episode as the "Wise Allegation" on pages 37-41 of the HSCA.

Interesting stuff to say the least. And Wes Wise is an interesting and seemingly honorable man.

Thanks for bringing him back to the fore of our attention.

Lee

Hi Lee,

I haven't forgot.

I think that Wes Wise and Carl Mather are probably two of the most important living witnesses today.

And it wasn't a red Ford Falcon, it was a blue 57' Plymouth, precisely the car that Mather owned that had the tags on it that White wrote down on the piece of paper that he gave to Wise, that Wise traced to Mather.

Wise took me to the scene of where White saw "Oswald" driving Mather's Plymouth around a few blocks from Tippit's murder scene, shortly after the crime occurred.

Wise said he had to promise White that White wouldn't get involved, since he was scared, but then instead of interviewing Mather about what his car was doing at the scene of his good friend's murder, while he was at work at Collins Radio, the FBI talked to White and intimidated him, and inserted the red Ford Falcon into the picture to confuse things. There's no real confusion, and there was no real investigation into this angle, which leads directly to JMWAVE.

And while I would like to get a Special Federal Grand Jury to review the evidence in the JFK assassination, there is more of an opportunity to get a local Dallas County Grand Jury to review the evidence in the Tippit murder, especially since there are now so many suspects (girlfriends husband) and possible motives, including the connection established to Collins Radio and JMWAVE.

Wes Wise is one of the nicest guys I've met, and gives one of the best tours of Dallas assassination sites if you can get him to show you around.

BK

Edited July 27, 2010 by William Kelly

[William Kelly]

Hi Lee,

I haven't forgot.

I think that Wes Wise and Carl Mather are probably two of the most important living witnesses today.

And while I would like to get a Special Federal Grand Jury to review the evidence in the JFK assassination, there is more of an opportunity to get a local Dallas County Grand Jury to review the evidence in the Tippit murder, especially since there are now so many suspects (girlfriends husband) and possible motives, including the connection established to Collins Radio and JMWAVE.

Wes Wise is one of the nicest guys I've met, and gives one of the best tours of Dallas assassination sites if you can get him to show you around.

BK

I just wanted to flesh that out in case there are any students reading it who hadn't heard the T.F. White story. Do we know if Mather's HSCA testimony is still classified? Any requests in for it?

You must be on the Dallas VIP List. Last year I had to make do with Stinky Ron in his "stolen from a child" beanie hat. Nice enough guy. He just didn't know anything much about the assassination and my daughter didn't like the look of him. Maybe he had his eye on her socks?

Thanks Bill

Lee

Mather was given immunity from prosecution in order to testify before the HSCA but as far as I can tell he was never called to testify.

CBS News also tried to get him to do an interview, and he is listed on credits of some of their assassination specials but is never mentioned.

I once arranged for Wes to give a tour to a college criminal justice class from Jersey, and I've asked people to video tape his tour, as he can't give them forever.

BK

[William Kelly]

Hi Lee,

I haven't forgot.

I think that Wes Wise and Carl Mather are probably two of the most important living witnesses today.

And while I would like to get a Special Federal Grand Jury to review the evidence in the JFK assassination, there is more of an opportunity to get a local Dallas County Grand Jury to review the evidence in the Tippit murder, especially since there are now so many suspects (girlfriends husband) and possible motives, including the connection established to Collins Radio and JMWAVE.

Wes Wise is one of the nicest guys I've met, and gives one of the best tours of Dallas assassination sites if you can get him to show you around.

BK

I just wanted to flesh that out in case there are any students reading it who hadn't heard the T.F. White story. Do we know if Mather's HSCA testimony is still classified? Any requests in for it?

You must be on the Dallas VIP List. Last year I had to make do with Stinky Ron in his "stolen from a child" beanie hat. Nice enough guy. He just didn't know anything much about the assassination and my daughter didn't like the look of him. Maybe he had his eye on her socks?

Thanks Bill

Lee

Mather was given immunity from prosecution in order to testify before the HSCA but as far as I can tell he was never called to testify.

CBS News also tried to get him to do an interview, and he is listed on credits of some of their assassination specials but is never mentioned.

I once arranged for Wes to give a tour to a college criminal justice class from Jersey, and I've asked people to video tape his tour, as he can't give them forever.

BK

According to John Armstrong, Mather was interviewed by the HSCA. This is from his article in Probe Magazine in 1998;

"In 1977 the HSCA wanted to interview Mather about this incident. He agreed, but not before he was granted immunity from prosecution by the Justice Department. Mather was interviewed by the HSCA, but most of the documents relating to that interview remain classified in the National Archives. Why?"

The full article is linked here;

http://www.ctka.net/pr198-jfk.html

The lines comes from the section "Collins Radio and the CIA" and your work is referenced from "Back Channels."

Is there any way we can definitively find out whether there is testimony in the Archives waiting for us at some point in the future?

Thanks

Lee

P.S. It might be cool if you have his video tour on film to post it on one of the assassination sites in the future?

Yea Lee,

That was in my first article on the Collins Radio Connections in Backchannels, and also cited by TS in NIYL, but I've been to the NARA and reviewed the file on Carl Mather and the FBI talked to his superior at Collins Radio, and his wife, and he WAS given immunity by HSCA lawyers, but there's no formal, questioning of Mather under oath by the HSCA that I could find. This could probably be attributed to where it naturally leads - to WHCA and JMWAVE, so GRBlakey didn't want to go there and let it drop. I think a HSCA investigator Moriariaty - who I talked with on the phone but who wouldn't break his security oath - a stand up guy - may have talked briefly with Mather privately but nobody wants to talk about it.

I would like to get an oral history interview with Carl Mather if he would cooperate, and I would donate it to the Sixth Floor Muse Archives.

I think there's an interview with Wes Wise in the Sixth Floor Oral History collection because Wes and Bob Porter videotaped an oral history session with me, and sent me a copy. Then Porter was accidently shot while interviewing a Dallas cop, which should of sent conspiracy theorists into a frenzy had he died.

So unless John Armstrong has identified records that are classified that I don't know about, I don't think there are any documents on Mather still secret. They just never created any and hope that it will all just go away...

BK

[Duke Lane]

... Bob Porter was accidently shot while interviewing a Dallas cop ....

The Dallas cop was Jim Leavelle, as memory serves.

[William Kelly]

... Bob Porter was accidently shot while interviewing a Dallas cop ....

The Dallas cop was Jim Leavelle, as memory serves.

Yea, Duke, not just any cop. One of the cops handcuffed to Oswald so he wouldn't get away. I wonder if the gunshot is on the oral history tape?

BK

[William Kelly]

Yea Lee,

That was in my first article on the Collins Radio Connections in Backchannels, and also cited by TS in NIYL, but I've been to the NARA and reviewed the file on Carl Mather and the FBI talked to his superior at Collins Radio, and his wife, and he WAS given immunity by HSCA lawyers, but there's no formal, questioning of Mather under oath by the HSCA that I could find. This could probably be attributed to where it naturally leads - to WHCA and JMWAVE, so GRBlakey didn't want to go there and let it drop. I think a HSCA investigator Moriariaty - who I talked with on the phone but who wouldn't break his security oath - a stand up guy - may have talked briefly with Mather privately but nobody wants to talk about it.

I would like to get an oral history interview with Carl Mather if he would cooperate, and I would donate it to the Sixth Floor Muse Archives.

I think there's an interview with Wes Wise in the Sixth Floor Oral History collection because Wes and Bob Porter videotaped an oral history session with me, and sent me a copy. Then Porter was accidently shot while interviewing a Dallas cop, which should of sent conspiracy theorists into a frenzy had he died.

So unless John Armstrong has identified records that are classified that I don't know about, I don't think there are any documents on Mather still secret. They just never created any and hope that it will all just go away...

BK

Figures Bill. Not surprising really is it? Have you spoken to Mather or his wife directly in the past?

No, but CBS reporters took him and his wife to dinner and he never cooperated with them as far as I know.

And while I have his address and phone number, and was going to call him and chat, an idiot Cracker read my articles about Collins Radio and called him and told him I was accusing him of being involved in a conspiracy to kill the President, which I most certainly have never done. As far as I know he's an honorable man who is just playing it cool and laying low.

I would like to talk to him or ask him some questions, but had hoped Congress would have hearings and then he would be properly questioned by them, along with the Paines and a few dozen other witnesses who were never properly questioned.

Like I said, I would do a formal, tape recorded or videotaped oral history interview with him if he would cooperate, and donate it to the Sixth Floor Oral History Project.

BK

[William Kelly]

No, but CBS reporters took him and his wife to dinner and he never cooperated with them as far as I know.

And while I have his address and phone number, and was going to call him and chat, an idiot Cracker read my articles about Collins Radio and called him and told him I was accusing him of being involved in a conspiracy to kill the President, which I most certainly have never done. As far as I know he's an honorable man who is just playing it cool and laying low.

I would like to talk to him or ask him some questions, but had hoped Congress would have hearings and then he would be properly questioned by them, along with the Paines and a few dozen other witnesses who were never properly questioned.

Like I said, I would do a formal, tape recorded or videotaped oral history interview with him if he would cooperate, and donate it to the Sixth Floor Oral History Project.

BK

Do you think it was his '57 Plymouth, Bill? Or do you think his plates were duplicated without his knowledge by the JM/Wave crew? It's the Tippit angle that makes it all a bit weird. Very calculated so if the car was seen, which it was, and the license taken, which is was, then his silence could be relied upon because of his association with the dead cop? He must have almost soiled his pants when the news broke. Reminds me of the Buell Wesley Frazier situation a little bit.

You should try calling him one day and see what his thought are on the Oral History. It would certainly be a scoop and an important one to record.

Lee

Lee, I'm not going to speculate about it. No need to. White, an auto mechanic, saw "Oswald" in a 57 Plymouth - and wrote down the license plate number and gave it to Wes Wise. Wise had it checked out and gave it to the FBI, the FBI went to the home of the owner of the tags and there the Plymouth was in the driveway. They knocked on the door and Mrs. Mather said yes, that's her husband's car, and he was at work at Collins Radio. And yes, he had that car on Nov. 22, at work, until after noon, when he returned home and picked her and the kids up and they drove over to the home of their good friends the Tippits to offer their condolenses to Mrs. Tippit, a former neighbor and friend. Then the FBI went to see White and intimidated him, introduced the red Ford Falcon, a red herring, and never talked to Mather. Is that any way to conduct an investigation? The last time I talked with him, Wes Wise still had the slip of paper with the license number on it P-something. It was never entered into evidence.

Yea, Mather is high on the list of those who should be properly questioned, and I wouldn't mind doing it myself if he would talk to me. One of his jobs at Collins Radio was to work on the radios on Air Force One and the Vice President's plane, and one of the first executive decisions LBJ made as President was to switch planes from the one he usually used to AF1 because it had better communications equipment.

BK

[Greg Parker]

Hi Lee,

I haven't forgot.

I think that Wes Wise and Carl Mather are probably two of the most important living witnesses today.

And while I would like to get a Special Federal Grand Jury to review the evidence in the JFK assassination, there is more of an opportunity to get a local Dallas County Grand Jury to review the evidence in the Tippit murder, especially since there are now so many suspects (girlfriends husband) and possible motives, including the connection established to Collins Radio and JMWAVE.

Wes Wise is one of the nicest guys I've met, and gives one of the best tours of Dallas assassination sites if you can get him to show you around.

BK

I just wanted to flesh that out in case there are any students reading it who hadn't heard the T.F. White story. Do we know if Mather's HSCA testimony is still classified? Any requests in for it?

You must be on the Dallas VIP List. Last year I had to make do with Stinky Ron in his "stolen from a child" beanie hat. Nice enough guy. He just didn't know anything much about the assassination and my daughter didn't like the look of him. Maybe he had his eye on her socks?

Thanks Bill

Lee

Mather was given immunity from prosecution in order to testify before the HSCA but as far as I can tell he was never called to testify.

CBS News also tried to get him to do an interview, and he is listed on credits of some of their assassination specials but is never mentioned.

I once arranged for Wes to give a tour to a college criminal justice class from Jersey, and I've asked people to video tape his tour, as he can't give them forever.

BK

According to John Armstrong, Mather was interviewed by the HSCA. This is from his article in Probe Magazine in 1998;

"In 1977 the HSCA wanted to interview Mather about this incident. He agreed, but not before he was granted immunity from prosecution by the Justice Department. Mather was interviewed by the HSCA, but most of the documents relating to that interview remain classified in the National Archives. Why?"

The full article is linked here;

http://www.ctka.net/pr198-jfk.html

The lines comes from the section "Collins Radio and the CIA" and your work is referenced from "Back Channels."

Is there any way we can definitively find out whether there is testimony in the Archives waiting for us at some point in the future?

Thanks

Lee

P.S. It might be cool if you have his video tour on film to post it on one of the assassination sites in the future?

Yea Lee,

That was in my first article on the Collins Radio Connections in Backchannels, and also cited by TS in NIYL, but I've been to the NARA and reviewed the file on Carl Mather and the FBI talked to his superior at Collins Radio, and his wife, and he WAS given immunity by HSCA lawyers, but there's no formal, questioning of Mather under oath by the HSCA that I could find. This could probably be attributed to where it naturally leads - to WHCA and JMWAVE, so GRBlakey didn't want to go there and let it drop. I think a HSCA investigator Moriariaty - who I talked with on the phone but who wouldn't break his security oath - a stand up guy - may have talked briefly with Mather privately but nobody wants to talk about it.

I would like to get an oral history interview with Carl Mather if he would cooperate, and I would donate it to the Sixth Floor Muse Archives.

I think there's an interview with Wes Wise in the Sixth Floor Oral History collection because Wes and Bob Porter videotaped an oral history session with me, and sent me a copy. Then Porter was accidently shot while interviewing a Dallas cop, which should of sent conspiracy theorists into a frenzy had he died.

So unless John Armstrong has identified records that are classified that I don't know about, I don't think there are any documents on Mather still secret. They just never created any and hope that it will all just go away...

BK

On this, I have to side with Armstrong.

Carl Mather and his wife were interviewed by the committee on March 28, 1978 http://www.maryferre...absPageId=40243

There should be some clue somewhere as to how/if these were recorded. The HSCA requested all available data held by the CIA on Nestor Castellanos, Mather, John David Hurt, Collins Radio and the Minutemen in the one request. Read into that what you will.

If you read on, you'll note that the FBI, in its original investigation, never interviewed Carl - only his wife (twice). Wes Wise was interviewed a second time after the Mathers had appeared. In this second interview, Wise said something which may explain why the FBI only ever interviewed Mrs M. Wise said that when he had taken the couple to dinner, Carl was "too nervous to eat" but that Mrs Mather was "cool, very cool".

[William Kelly]

Hi Lee,

I haven't forgot.

I think that Wes Wise and Carl Mather are probably two of the most important living witnesses today.

And while I would like to get a Special Federal Grand Jury to review the evidence in the JFK assassination, there is more of an opportunity to get a local Dallas County Grand Jury to review the evidence in the Tippit murder, especially since there are now so many suspects (girlfriends husband) and possible motives, including the connection established to Collins Radio and JMWAVE.

Wes Wise is one of the nicest guys I've met, and gives one of the best tours of Dallas assassination sites if you can get him to show you around.

BK

I just wanted to flesh that out in case there are any students reading it who hadn't heard the T.F. White story. Do we know if Mather's HSCA testimony is still classified? Any requests in for it?

You must be on the Dallas VIP List. Last year I had to make do with Stinky Ron in his "stolen from a child" beanie hat. Nice enough guy. He just didn't know anything much about the assassination and my daughter didn't like the look of him. Maybe he had his eye on her socks?

Thanks Bill

Lee

Mather was given immunity from prosecution in order to testify before the HSCA but as far as I can tell he was never called to testify.

CBS News also tried to get him to do an interview, and he is listed on credits of some of their assassination specials but is never mentioned.

I once arranged for Wes to give a tour to a college criminal justice class from Jersey, and I've asked people to video tape his tour, as he can't give them forever.

BK

According to John Armstrong, Mather was interviewed by the HSCA. This is from his article in Probe Magazine in 1998;

"In 1977 the HSCA wanted to interview Mather about this incident. He agreed, but not before he was granted immunity from prosecution by the Justice Department. Mather was interviewed by the HSCA, but most of the documents relating to that interview remain classified in the National Archives. Why?"

The full article is linked here;

http://www.ctka.net/pr198-jfk.html

The lines comes from the section "Collins Radio and the CIA" and your work is referenced from "Back Channels."

Is there any way we can definitively find out whether there is testimony in the Archives waiting for us at some point in the future?

Thanks

Lee

P.S. It might be cool if you have his video tour on film to post it on one of the assassination sites in the future?

Yea Lee,

That was in my first article on the Collins Radio Connections in Backchannels, and also cited by TS in NIYL, but I've been to the NARA and reviewed the file on Carl Mather and the FBI talked to his superior at Collins Radio, and his wife, and he WAS given immunity by HSCA lawyers, but there's no formal, questioning of Mather under oath by the HSCA that I could find. This could probably be attributed to where it naturally leads - to WHCA and JMWAVE, so GRBlakey didn't want to go there and let it drop. I think a HSCA investigator Moriariaty - who I talked with on the phone but who wouldn't break his security oath - a stand up guy - may have talked briefly with Mather privately but nobody wants to talk about it.

I would like to get an oral history interview with Carl Mather if he would cooperate, and I would donate it to the Sixth Floor Muse Archives.

I think there's an interview with Wes Wise in the Sixth Floor Oral History collection because Wes and Bob Porter videotaped an oral history session with me, and sent me a copy. Then Porter was accidently shot while interviewing a Dallas cop, which should of sent conspiracy theorists into a frenzy had he died.

So unless John Armstrong has identified records that are classified that I don't know about, I don't think there are any documents on Mather still secret. They just never created any and hope that it will all just go away...

BK

On this, I have to side with Armstrong.

Carl Mather and his wife were interviewed by the committee on March 28, 1978 http://www.maryferre...absPageId=40243

There should be some clue somewhere as to how/if these were recorded. The HSCA requested all available data held by the CIA on Nestor Castellanos, Mather, John David Hurt, Collins Radio and the Minutemen in the one request. Read into that what you will.

If you read on, you'll note that the FBI, in its original investigation, never interviewed Carl - only his wife (twice). Wes Wise was interviewed a second time after the Mathers had appeared. In this second interview, Wise said something which may explain why the FBI only ever interviewed Mrs M. Wise said that when he had taken the couple to dinner, Carl was "too nervous to eat" but that Mrs Mather was "cool, very cool".

Hi Greg,

You side with Armstrong? Without reading the orignal docs?

Jack White, will you please call Armstrong on his cell phone and tell him that Greg Parker is sticking up for him on the ed forum.

I read Armstrong on Tippitt too, but when it comes to Mather he cites my Backchannels article too, and while he gives a date as to when Mather was interviewed by HSCA, there is no record of this interview that I know of, and while there is a legal document from HSCA lawyers giving Mather immunity from prosecution, I don't think they ever bothered to question him.

CBS also paid the Mathers to go on film with their side of the story, and while Mrs. Mather is listed on some CBS News specials on the assassination, nothing is on what was aired, and nobody, as far as I know, has checked to see if it is among the CBS News outtakes they supposidly donated to the NARA under the JFK Act and as reported in the ARRB Final Report.

I hope Carl Mather has had something to eat since then. Maybe in Novemeber he'll join us for a pizza at Campisis?

Bill Kelly