Timing of the assassination

[David Josephs]

BUMP

So none of the LNers here are up to the task of describing how LHO got to where he was supposed to be, when he was supposed to be there...

How he knew to be there then and how he was not seen by anyone going or coming from there.

Guess it's just like all those people, including Curry and Decker, the SS agents and Truly... who all experienced shots coming from the RR yard, west of the TSBD.

They were all wrong

[Peter Fokes]

Peter, I didn't know you were a poet.

I'm not surprised. Many years ago I won the Lilian I. Found Poetry Award at Carleton University in Ottawa, Canada.

Several dusty binders in a closet somewhere to be discovered when I am have departed this mortal coil!

By the way, did Angleton ever actually publish a poem, or did he just publish the work of other poets? He did edit Furioso. Contributors included T.S. Eliot and Ezra Pound. Excuse me, there must be an Angleton thread elsewhere ...

Back to timing of the assassination ........

[David Andrews]

For Oswald to "ready the trap" a number of things must occur...

- rifle is assembled

- Sniper's lair is built

- Noone is on the 6th floor between 11:55 and 12:30

- witnesses do NOT see multiple men, in different windows, sporting rifles at 12:15

- Oswald is NOT in the 2nd floor lunchroom at 12:15 or as late as 12:25

- Oswald knows when the limo would pass by so as to have the time to "ready the trap"

Interesting how the assassination is timed so that a communist can shoot the president on everybody's lunch hour...

[David Josephs]

David...

How is that you know that the shooters were communist -

the fact they worked together and in unison for a greater cause???

[David Andrews]

David...

How is that you know that the shooters were communist -

the fact they worked together and in unison for a greater cause???

It should have read:

"Interesting how the assassination is timed so that a 'communist' can shoot the president on everybody's lunch hour..."

Where I wanted to go with this is that the whitewash story was that Every Good American vacated the sixth floor at lunch to go see the president drive by, giving a wily "commie" his opportunity to strike.

Edited August 6, 2010 by David Andrews

[David Josephs]

David...

How is that you know that the shooters were communist -

the fact they worked together and in unison for a greater cause???

It should have read:

"Interesting how the assassination is timed so that a 'communist' can shoot the president on everybody's lunch hour..."

Where I wanted to go with this is that the whitewash story was that Every Good American vacated the sixth floor at lunch to go see the president drive by, giving a wily "commie" his opportunity to strike.

I get you David.... just a little tongue in cheek on my part.

One of the stranger parts of this timeline is Jarman and Norman deciding at like, 12:25 to go back into the building and up to the 5th floor. The timing of their being where they needed to be at exactly the right time is a bit eerie too.

DJ

Mr. JARMAN - Then I went out in front of the building.

Mr. BALL - With who?

Mr. JARMAN - Harold Norman, Bonnie Ray, and Danny Arce and myself.

Mr. BALL - You say Bonnie Ray Williams?

Mr. JARMAN - Bonnie Ray Williams.

Mr. BALL - Do you remember him going with you?

Mr. JARMAN - No; I am sorry. Excuse me, but it was Harold Norman and myself and Daniel Arce.

Mr. BALL - What about Billy Lovelady?

Mr. JARMAN - I didn't go out with them. They came out later.

Mr. BALL - Did you see Billy Lovelady out there?

Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - Where was he?

Mr. JARMAN - Standing on the stairway as you go out the front door.

Mr. BALL - Where did you stand?

Mr. JARMAN - I was standing over to the right in front of the building going toward the west.

Mr. BALL - Were you on the sidewalk or curb?

Mr. JARMAN - On the sidewalk.

Mr. BALL - The sidewalk in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - How long did you stand there?

Mr. JARMAN - Well, until about 12:20, between 12:20 and 12:25.

….

Mr. BALL - You went in the back door?

Mr. JARMAN - Right.

Mr. BALL - That would be the north entrance to the building, wouldn't it?

Mr. JARMAN - Right.

Mr. BALL - Did you take an elevator or the stairs?

Mr. JARMAN - We took the elevator.

Mr. BALL - Which elevator?

Mr. JARMAN - The west side elevator.

Mr. BALL - That is the one you use a punch button on, isn't it?

Mr. JARMAN - Right

Mr. BALL - Where did you go?

Mr. JARMAN - To the fifth floor.

Mr. BALL - Why did you go to the fifth floor?

Mr. JARMAN - We just decided to go to the fifth floor.

Mr. BALL - Was there any reason why you should go to the fifth floor any more than the fourth or the sixth?

Mr. JARMAN - No.

Mr. BALL - Did you know who made the suggestion you go to the fifth floor?

Mr. JARMAN - Well, I don't know if it was myself or Hank.

Mr. BALL - When you got there was there anybody on the fifth floor?

Mr. JARMAN - No, sir.

Mr. BALL - What did you do when you got to the fifth floor?

Mr. JARMAN - We got out the elevator and pulled the gate down. That was in case somebody wanted to use it. Then we went to the front of the building, which is on the south side, and raised the windows.

Mr. BALL - Which windows did you raise?

Mr. JARMAN - Well, Harold raised the first window to the east side of the building, and I went to the second rear windows and raised, counting the windows, it would be the fourth one.

Mr. BALL - It would be the fourth window? (Bronson film glimpse of SE 5th floor windows)

Mr. JARMAN - Yes.

Mr. BALL - Did somebody join you then?

Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir; a few minutes later.

Mr. BALL - Who joined you?

Mr. JARMAN - Bonnie Ray Williams.

Mr. BALL - And where did he stand or sit?

Mr. JARMAN - He took the window next to Harold Norman.

Edited August 6, 2010 by David Josephs

[William Kelly]

In regards to the timing of the motorcade and the assassination happening during lunch hour, the only window of opportunity the Sixth Floor Shooter/LHO? had before others would be there.

If Oswald was the Sixth Floor Shooter, and he did it sponaniously, without the planning that was put into the Walker Operation, then if he really did "snap" as Gary Mack puts it, because of personal psychological triggers that were set off when Marina rejected him, then it wouldn't have mattered if anybody was around, he would have killed and went on a spree killing rampage regardless of who would see him - or try to stop him - just like most other Spree Killers we know about - Unruh, Texas Tower, Virginia Tech, et al.

So if he was really psycho damaged and ready to kill - there's nothing that would stop him - except McAdamas and DVP and other LNs and maybe even CTs agree on this - that Oswald wouldn't have tried to kill anybody if the floor crew was there working or someone would have seen him commit the crimes.

This idea just goes totally against the concerpt of Oswald being a spurrned spree killing psycho.

BK

[David Josephs]

Or a coherent, rational assassin desiring a place in history, for that matter Bill.

Nothing about what Oswald did or where he was from 11:55-12:30 is in support of his being the assassin

while all the evidence is designed/manufactured and placed to make it LOOK like he was.

"Lone" Nut" - neither could be farther from the truth

[John Dolva]

I think this is turning into a very interesting topic David, Very thought provoking. I'm glad you've keep pushing the issue. It may very well lead to a significant perceptual change that LNrs or fence sitters cannot ignore nor explain except as a remarkably set (big) of coincidences squeezed into a tiny window of opportunity that really begs an occams razor approach that points to a conspiracy. Personally, I don't think Oswald is necessary to be considered the shooter. The same basic premise could apply to any.

Anyway having done this risky deed he shoots a copper and goes to the movies. I'dve at least tried to do a runner if I was such a dimwit as to leave a traceable rifle behind. I got a gun, There are ways to enforce travel if you can't drive. I wonder at what point Oswald got wind of being hunted..

[David Josephs]

I think this is turning into a very interesting topic David, Very thought provoking. I'm glad you've keep pushing the issue. It may very well lead to a significant perceptual change that LNrs or fence sitters cannot ignore nor explain except as a remarkably set (big) of coincidences squeezed into a tiny window of opportunity that really begs an occams razor approach that points to a conspiracy. Personally, I don't think Oswald is necessary to be considered the shooter. The same basic premise could apply to any.

Anyway having done this risky deed he shoots a copper and goes to the movies. I'dve at least tried to do a runner if I was such a dimwit as to leave a traceable rifle behind. I got a gun, There are ways to enforce travel if you can't drive. I wonder at what point Oswald got wind of being hunted..

For me John - and I know you refer to when between 12:30 and his arrest - but for me this reaction to his being told he was indeed charged with killing the president is THE defining moment when he realizes he's screwed.

since I don't believe Oswald killed Tippit, I don't believe he ever got wind of his being hunted. The Oswald that is arrested at the Texas Theater begins to figure it out slightly - but then why walk down a main street in broad daylight if you think they're after you... and then confine yourself in a building when he had ample opportunity to just disappear - no one had any idea where he was at 1:00 except maybe those who were supposedly going to help him (or promised to help him) fly off into the sunset. "Just doing my duty as I was ordered to as a US marine" might say Oswald...

just speculation here... and thanks for checking back and your encouragement.

We still see that no LNer has addressed these timing difficulties and/or the evidence in support of them

[John Dolva]

Personally I actually keep in mind the time from about quarter to 12 till he had survived and was safely (for the moment) in custody (that in itself, imo was quite a feat.). Depending on the level of any fore knowledge he could have begun piecing things together say as early as conversations overheard on the bus, radio during the taxi ride, Landladys TV, etc. His thoughts probably then came to getting to a place where he could to some extent be assured of witnesses and having an advantage of eyes well adjusted to the dark, iow, see them coming and I think getting up close and personal with a number of cops could be seen as a way of ensuring no stray fire. He got a hell of a hiding later, but he was alive.

edit:typo

Edited August 6, 2010 by John Dolva

[David Josephs]

Personally I actually keep in mind the time from about quarter to 12 till he had survived and was safely (for the moment) in custody (that in itself, imo was quite a feat.). Depending on the level of any fore knowledge he could have begun piecing things together say as early as conversations overheard on the bus, radio during the taxi ride, Landladys TV, etc. His thoughts probably then came to getting to a place where he could to some extent be assured of witnesses and having an advantage of eyes well adjusted to the dark, iow, see them coming and I think getting up close and personal with a number of cops could be seen as a way of ensuring no stray fire. He got a hell of a hiding later, but he was alive.

edit:typo

Interesting John,

Then why not just stay on the bus (if he was ever really there to begin with)

or go directly to the theater (why the gun and change of clothes) - he wasn't going to shoot back if the desire was to be "protected" by being around so many people and police.

and if he was supposed to be killed "escaping" when and where was THAT supposed to happen?

Tippit was not a murderer although I guess he could have been put into a position where he'd have to be. He definitely was not where he was expected to be

And how could Oswald have known where Tippit would be in any case... if he was the LNer he is claimed to be

all coincidences?

Edited August 6, 2010 by David Josephs

[Peter McGuire]

I think this is turning into a very interesting topic David, Very thought provoking. I'm glad you've keep pushing the issue. It may very well lead to a significant perceptual change that LNrs or fence sitters cannot ignore nor explain except as a remarkably set (big) of coincidences squeezed into a tiny window of opportunity that really begs an occams razor approach that points to a conspiracy. Personally, I don't think Oswald is necessary to be considered the shooter. The same basic premise could apply to any.

Anyway having done this risky deed he shoots a copper and goes to the movies. I'dve at least tried to do a runner if I was such a dimwit as to leave a traceable rifle behind. I got a gun, There are ways to enforce travel if you can't drive. I wonder at what point Oswald got wind of being hunted..

For me John - and I know you refer to when between 12:30 and his arrest - but for me this reaction to his being told he was indeed charged with killing the president is THE defining moment when he realizes he's screwed.

since I don't believe Oswald killed Tippit, I don't believe he ever got wind of his being hunted. The Oswald that is arrested at the Texas Theater begins to figure it out slightly - but then why walk down a main street in broad daylight if you think they're after you... and then confine yourself in a building when he had ample opportunity to just disappear - no one had any idea where he was at 1:00 except maybe those who were supposedly going to help him (or promised to help him) fly off into the sunset. "Just doing my duty as I was ordered to as a US marine" might say Oswald...

just speculation here... and thanks for checking back and your encouragement.

We still see that no LNer has addressed these timing difficulties and/or the evidence in support of them

The Oswald who went to the theatre was not a man who had committed any sort of crime. Anyone, who still believes that that man, Oswald, killed a president and also a local cop, yet goes to a place like this, as my Korean students would say has "rocks in their head."

Troubling thought though. What the cover-up artists have done over the years has been taking situations like this where they are jammed up, and figured out a way to explain it away. And many - hungry for a simple solution buy into that lie.

In a way – we have helped them do their job.

Edited August 6, 2010 by Peter McGuire

[David Josephs]

Cover up artists like the Discovery Channel and the History Channel with their convoluted logic presented in documentary form.

Can't tell you how many times I've heard, "but I saw it on Disc Ch..., why would they lie?"

"I recall that shortly after the car in which the

President was riding passed the Texas School Book Depository

building I heard shots being fired from a point which ,I

thought was near the railroad tracks located over the viaduct

on Elm Street. -O.V. Campbell VP TSBD standing out front with...

Roy Truly... who repeatedly said the he did not feel as if the shots came from the TSBD but to the WEST by the RR tracks.

Like to see one Disc Ch documentary that simply reads the statements of the witnesses who place the shots on the GK... can ANYONE say "reasonable doubt" ??

[David Josephs]

Be interesting to research the extent of the Luncheon's "marketing"...

Also be interesting to get the DPD transcripts for 11am-12:30.

When and where did the crowds start assembling?

I am going thru the FBI statements and those that say, seem to put their deciding to go out front to watch the parade at 12:15-12:25.

example: Mrs. Dragoo

"On November 22, 1963 I left my office located on

the second floor of tha Texas School Book Depository Bldg .

and walked to the front entranco of the building about

12:20 PM, to watch the Presidential Motorcade which was to

pass along Elm Street in front of the building . I was with

Mrs . Bonnie Richey, 220 South Marsalis, Apt . 117, Dallas, Texas,

Mrs . Carolyn Arnold, 3325 South Tyler St ., Dallas, Texas, Mrs .

Virgie R . Baker, 36002 Live Oak, Dallas, Texas, and Miss Judy

Johnson, 915 Sunnyside St ., Dallas, Texas, all employees of the

Texas School Book Depository.

Wonder what promtped this mass exodus right about 12:15??