Timing of the assassination

[Chris Davidson]

Thomas,

My point was: Who had the seizure?

An african-american? Belknap? or someone else.

If it was an african-american, Belknap has some explaining to do. Even though he is dead.

chris

[David Josephs]

I don't think the seizure had anything to do with AF-1 landing late and JFK leaving Love Field at 11:50 instead of 11:30... the radio announced he was about 10 minutes late:

Mr. BELIN. Now, Mrs. Reid, you left lunch about what time?
Mrs. REID. Well, I left, I ate my lunch hurriedly, I wasn't watching the time but I wanted to be sure of getting out on the streets in time for the parade before he got there, and I called my husband, who works at the records building, and they had a radio in their office and they were listening as the parade progressed and he told me they were running about 10 minutes late.
But I went down rather soon and stood on the steps.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Do you know about what time it was that you left the lunchroom, was it 12, 12:15?
Mrs. REID. I think around 12:30 somewhere along in there.

It appears that few if anyone knew when JFK was expected. Yes the streets were lined early yet when asked, some of the key players in the TSBD barely make it. The three men on the 5th floor?

Mr. BALL - Were you on the sidewalk or curb?
Mr. JARMAN - On the sidewalk.
Mr. BALL - The sidewalk in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - How long did you stand there?
Mr. JARMAN - Well, until about 12:20, between 12:20 and 12:25.

Mr. BALL - You left there, didn't you, and went some place?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - With whom?
Mr. JARMAN - Harold Norman and myself.
Mr. BALL - Where did you go?
Mr. JARMAN - We went around to the back of the building up to the fifth floor.
Mr. BALL - You say you went around. You mean you went around the building?
Mr. JARMAN - Right.
Mr. BALL - You didn't go through and cross the first floor?
Mr. JARMAN - No, sir; there was too many people standing on the stairway so we decided to go around.
Mr. BALL - You went in the back door?
Mr. JARMAN - Right.
Mr. BALL - That would be the north entrance to the building, wouldn't it?
Mr. JARMAN - Right.
Mr. BALL - Did you take an elevator or the stairs?
Mr. JARMAN - We took the elevator.

Mr. BALL - Did somebody join you then?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir; a few minutes later.
Mr. BALL - Who joined you?
Mr. JARMAN - Bonnie Ray Williams

Cutting kinda close, no? These men have no real idea when he's going to show up, yet after 12:15 they decide to walk around the building, up the back elevator, to the front of the building and then open the windows.
Mr. BALL - You left there, didn't you, and went some place?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - With whom?
Mr. JARMAN - Harold Norman and myself.
Mr. BALL - Where did you go?
Mr. JARMAN - We went around to the back of the building up to the fifth floor.
Mr. BALL - You say you went around. You mean you went around the building?
Mr. JARMAN - Right.
Mr. BALL - You didn't go through and cross the first floor?
Mr. JARMAN - No, sir; there was too many people standing on the stairway so we decided to go around.
Mr. BALL - You went in the back door?
Mr. JARMAN - Right.
Mr. BALL - That would be the north entrance to the building, wouldn't it?
Mr. JARMAN - Right.
Mr. BALL - Did you take an elevator or the stairs?
Mr. JARMAN - We took the elevator.
Mr. BALL - You left there, didn't you, and went some place?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - With whom?
Mr. JARMAN - Harold Norman and myself.
Mr. BALL - Where did you go?
Mr. JARMAN - We went around to the back of the building up to the fifth floor.
Mr. BALL - You say you went around. You mean you went around the building?
Mr. JARMAN - Right.
Mr. BALL - You didn't go through and cross the first floor?
Mr. JARMAN - No, sir; there was too many people standing on the stairway so we decided to go around.
Mr. BALL - You went in the back door?
Mr. JARMAN - Right.
Mr. BALL - That would be the north entrance to the building, wouldn't it?
Mr. JARMAN - Right.
Mr. BALL - Did you take an elevator or the stairs?
Mr. JARMAN - We took the elevator.
Yet if you look at Moorman 3 we see that the windows closest to the elevators on the West side are open already.... what was the need to cross to the other end of the floor when the west windows would actually give a better view.

Secret Service agent Winston Lawson tells Chief Curry that the luncheon was to begin at 12:15… that the plane was to land at 11:30 (end of top left paragraph) and after a 45 min motorcade thru Dallas, arrive at the Trade Mart. VIP invitations had been sent and received which stated the Luncheon was to start at 12 NOON.

Bottom line of all this is that Oswald asks for a ride home before noon on Thursday - if he doesn't go home there needs to be another way to get the rifle to the TSBD (some suggest Yates' story of dropping off a hitchhiker at Elm/Houston who asked about Ruby and was carrying a large, long package "curtain rods". Some also suggest the parcel never delivered to the Oswald due to the wrong address had a brown paper bag in it. The testimonies surrounding this bag are convoluted at best with no one taking credit for bringing it down, including Montgomery who is pictured with it, few if any mention seeing the bag where it was said to be, no photo of the bag even thouh Studebaker's first photo was basically taken with the bag at his feet - if it ever was where they said it was...

Without Thursday's trip home the Set-up has to take different turns.

Without his knowing the time whne the motorcade would pass by - a man with a plan to assassinate the president as he passed by the building would be where at 11:45, 12:00, 12:15, 12:25.... ?? when the rifle needs retrieving, assembly, (thus reassembled rifle would not have been sighted in after the reconstruction - if it was used (which it wasn't) the scope would not be reliable...

Brennen claims he sees over 75% of the rifle - but no scope.

Euins? I'd suggest you read this interesting testimony. Whoever shot from that area it was not with a scoped rifle - which makes sense since it would be so hard to reacquire the target with the scope, especially one not sighted in yet...

Nope, Oswald could not have been at this wondow nor did he have a plan to kill JFK - we all knew this... I think this proves it. Marina and Ruth claim to be surprised he came home on the 21st. He played with his children and seemed to try and be nice to Marina - gives one pause to think he knew something was in the works and was saying his good byes..... but that's just speculation.

DJ

Mr. SPECTER. How far was it sticking out of the window would you say then, Amos?
Mr. EUINS. I would say it was about something like that.
Mr. SPECTER. Indicating about 3 feet?
Mr. EUINS. You know--the trigger housing and stock and receiver group out the window. (seems to me a boy who knows his rifles)
Mr. SPECTER. I can't understand you, Amos.
Mr. EUINS. It was enough to get the stock and receiving house and the trigger housing to stick out the window.

Mr. SPECTER. For example, could you see whether or not there was a telescopic lens on the gun?
Mr. EUINS. No, sir.

Mr. EUINS. No, sir; I wasn't thinking about it then. But when I was looking at it, when he shot, it sounded like a high-powered rifle, after I listened to it awhile, because I had been in the NDCC for about a year.
Mr. SPECTER. What is NDCC?
Mr. EUINS. We call it a military army for the boys, at our school.
Mr. SPECTER. Is that ROTC?
Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir.

Plus, if I remember correctly, there was a man with a rifle seen at 12:15 on the 6th floor

VOLUNTARY STATEMENT. Not Under Arrest Form No. 86
SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT
COUNTY OF DALLAS, TEXAS

Before me, the undersigned authority, on this the 22nd day of November A.D. 1963 personally appeared Arnold Louis Rowland, Address: 3026 Haggerly [sp?] St., Dallas, Texas, Age: DOB: 4-29-45, Phone No. FE 7 1861, POB: Corpus Christi, Texas.
Deposes and says:

I am a student at Adamson High School in Dallas, Texas. I am employed on weekends at the Pizza Inn located on West Davis Avenue in Dallas. At approximately 12:10 PM today, my wife Barbara and I arrived in downtown Dallas and took position to see the President's motorcade. We took position at the west entrance of the Sheriff's Office on Houston Street. We stood there for a time talking about the security measures that were being made for the president's visit in view of the recent trouble when Mr. Adelai [sic] Stevenson had been a recent visitor to Dallas. It must have been 5 or 10 minutes later when we were just looking at the surroudding [sic] buildings when I looked up at the Texas Book [cross-out -- Suppository?] building and noticed that the second floor from the top had two adjoining windows which were open, and upon looking I saw what I thought was a man standing back about 15 feet from the windows and was holding in his arms what appeared to be a hi [sic] powered rifle because it looked like it had a scope on it. He appeared to be holding this at a parade rest sort of position. I mentioned this to my wife and merely made the remark that it must be the secret service [sic] men. This man appeared to be a white man and appeared to have a light colored shirt on, open at the neck. He appeared to be of slender build and appeared to have dark hair. In about 15 minutes President Kennedy passed the [cross-out] spot where we were standing and the motorcade had just turned west on Elm heading down the hill when I heard a noise which I thought to be a back fire [sic]. In fact some of the people around laughed and then in about 8 seconds I heard another report and in about 3 seconds a third report. My wife, who had ahold of my hand, started running and dragging me across the street and I never did look up again at this window.

This statement is true and correct to the best of my knowledge and belief.

/s/ Arnold L. Rowland

Subscribed and sworn to before me on this the 22nd day of Nov A. D. 1963

/s/ Rosemary Allen
Notary Public, Dallas County, Texas

Mr. ROWLAND - At the time I saw the man in the other window, I saw this man hanging out the window first. It was a colored man, I think.
Representative FORD - Is this the same window where you saw the man standing with the rifle?
Mr. ROWLAND - No; this was the one on the east end of the building, the one that they said the shots were fired from.
Representative FORD - I am not clear on this now. The window that you saw the man that you describe was on what end of the building?
Mr. ROWLAND - The west, southwest corner.
Representative FORD - And the man you saw hanging out from the window was at what corner?
Mr. ROWLAND - The east, southeast corner.
Representative FORD - Southeast corner. On the same floor? https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?absPageId=138620
Mr. ROWLAND - On the same floor.

Edited April 2, 2015 by David Josephs

[Chris Davidson]

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/exhibits/ce2086.htm

David,

Carolyn Walther's sees two gunmen on a lower floor than the 6th. (She is positive this window was not as high as the sixth floor.)

Norman and Jarman head up to the 5th.

The gunmen realize someone has now entered the 5th floor.

They move to the 6th floor to complete the mission. One at the west window, one at the east.

Euins, Brennan and Rowland all get a glimpse of either gunmen/gun on the 6th floor.

chris

Edited April 2, 2015 by Chris Davidson

[Mark Knight]

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=pv&GRid=69084902

[David Josephs]

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/exhibits/ce2086.htm

David,

Carolyn Walther's sees two gunmen on a lower floor than the 6th. (She is positive this window was not as high as the sixth floor.)

Norman and Jarman head up to the 5th.

The gunmen realize someone has now entered the 5th floor.

They move to the 6th floor to complete the mission. One at the west window, one at the east.

Euins, Brennan and Rowland all get a glimpse of either gunmen/gun on the 6th floor.

chris

Fritz only arrives back at the TSBD at 12:58pm, so Truly's "about 1pm" is really not so far off... the official time given for finding the rifle is 1:22pm

3 plainclothes men where coming down the stairs as Luke Mooney was going up

Mr. MOONEY - It was a push button affair the best I can remember. got hold of the controls and it worked. We started up and got to the second. I was going to let them off and go on up. And when we got there, the power undoubtedly cut off, because we had no more power on the elevator. So I looked around their office there, just a short second or two, and then I went up the staircase myself. And I met some other officers coming down, plainclothes, and I believe they were deputy sheriffs. They were coming down the staircase. But I kept going up. And how come I get off the sixth floor, I don't know yet. But, anyway, I stopped on six, and didn't even know what floor I was on.

Mr. BALL - You were alone?

Mr. MOONEY - I was alone at that time.

Mr. BALL - Was there any reason for you to go to the sixth floor?

Mr. MOONEY - No, sir. That is what I say. I don't know why. I just stopped on that particular floor. I thought I was pretty close to the top.

Mr. BALL - Were there any other officers on the floor?

Mr. MOONEY - I didn't see any at that time. I assume there had been other officers up there. But I didn't see them.

Didn't Ellsworth stick to his story that the rifle was not found on the 6th floor?

I post this little piece of Truly's testimony whenever this comes up... suggests to me that Ellsworth was right... and that there is a real possibility that these three men who we never learn their identities could have easily moved/left the rifle on the 6th floor. Just food for thought

-------------------------

Mr. BALL. Where was Captain Fritz when you saw him?

Mr. TRULY. He was on the sixth floor in the area where they found the rifle.

Mr. BALL. And was the rifle there at the time?

Mr. TRULY. No, I never saw the rifle.

Mr. BALL. Was this after or before the rifle had been taken from the building?

Mr. TRULY. It was before the rifle had been taken from the building.

Mr. BALL. And do you know whether it was before or after the rifle was found?

Mr. TRULY. Apparently the rifle had been found before I got to the sixth floor, but just how early, I don't know.

Mr. BALL. But you had heard that the rifle was found, had you, by your talk with Fritz?

Mr. TRULY. That's--I don't know--I learned it was found while I was on the sixth floor.

Mr. BALL. While you were on the sixth floor?

Mr. TRULY. While I was on the sixth floor.

Mr. BALL. In other words, you went with Chief Lumpkin to the sixth floor, didn't you?

Mr. TRULY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And what was your purpose of going there?

Mr. TRULY. My purpose in going there was to inform Captain Fritz that this boy was missing and give him his telephone number, and his Irving address, at the suggestion of Chief Lumpkin, who accompanied me.

Mr. BALL. Did you give Captain Fritz this name and address?

Mr. TRULY. Yes, I did.

Mr. BALL. Was it while you were there that you learned the rifle had been found?

Mr. TRULY. I don't remember who I learned this from----

Mr. BALL. I didn't ask you that, I'm talking about time only.

Mr. TRULY. That was while I was on the sixth floor is when I learned the rifle was found, but I did not see it.

Mr. TRULY. I told--well, when Chief Lumpkin and I went to the sixth floor, Captain Fritz was standing in ,the area where I later learned they had found the gun, and Chief Lumpkin told Captain Fritz that Mr. Truly had something to tell him, which I would like to tell him, so he stepped over 4 or 5 feet to where I was, away from the other men---officers and reporters, I would say, that were on the floor, and I repeated the words to Captain Fritz.

Mr. BALL. What did you tell him?

Mr. TRULY. I told him that we had a man missing---I told him what his name was and his Irving address and he said, "All right, thank you, Mr. Truly. We will get right on it," or words to that effect, and so I left the sixth floor shortly.

While I was up there, just as I left Captain Fritz, a reporter walked over and said, "What about this fellow Oswald?" And I said, "Where did you learn the name 'Oswald'?" Because I had talked rather low to Captain Fritz and I said, "He's just an employee here," and I left, and sometime---someone informed me that they had found the gun. I don't know who it was.

Mr. BALL. About that time?

Mr. TRULY. It was along about that time, as near as I can remember, and I went back down to the first floor and I don't think I was up on the sixth floor any other time that day. I possibly could have been, but I don'.t recall it, because I was besieged by reporters and everybody else on the first floor, and talking to officers and so forth and I had no occasion to go back up there.

Mr. BALL. Now, about what time of day would you say is your best estimate that you told Captain Fritz of the name "Lee Oswald" and his address?

Mr. TRULY. My best estimate would be a little before 1 o'clock--10 minutes.

Mr. BALL. The gun wasn't found until after 1 o'clock?

Mr. TRULY. It wasn't found until after 1 o'clock?

Mr. BALL. No, it wasn't found until after 1 o'clock. I won't tell you exactly the time the gun was found, but I will say that the gun was not found until after 1 o'clock.

Mr. TRULY. Well, I may be mistaken about where I learned they had found the gun. I thought it was on the sixth floor--it could have been some other place.

Mr. BALL. Captain Fritz said you didn't tell him that until after the gun was found and that seems to correspond with your memory too, is that correct?

Mr. TRULY. It sure does, because I remember clearly that Captain Fritz was over at where the gun was found and I'm sure they must have found it or he wouldn't have been standing in that area when we came up there.

Mr. BALL. Now, if the gun was found after I o'clock, when was it that you discovered that Lee Oswald wasn't there?

Mr. TRULY. I thought it was about 20 minutes after the shooting--the assassination, but it could have been longer.

Mr. BALL. In other words, you thought originally it might have been 10 minutes of 2 or so that you learned that?

Mr. TRULY. Ten minutes to 1.

Mr. BALL. Ten minutes to 1?

Mr. TRULY. It was around 1 o'clock--that period of time after I came down from the sixth floor to the first floor was rather hazy in my memory.

Mr. BALL. You think it might have been after 1 when you first noticed he wasn't there?

Mr. TRULY. I don't think so---I don't feel like at was. It could have possibly been so.

Mr. BALL. Well, if the gun was not found before 1:10, if it wasn't found before that, can you give me any estimate?

Mr. TRULY. That seems to be a longer time after the assassination.