THE PHONEY WORLD OF OSWALD ACCUSERS

[J. Raymond Carroll]

Well you're not doing a very good job of it.

On the contrary.

I think so far I am doing a VERY GOOD JOB of smoking out the double -- talkers who have stood by while JFK was murdered, and who now spend endless hours accusing an innocent man, and his even more innocent wife.

[Dean Hagerman]

The guy is a couple of sandwiches short of a picnic.

[Dean Hagerman]

Holden Caulfield

I wonder if Ray thinks Mark Chapman is 100% innocent as well?

[J. Raymond Carroll]

[quote name='Martin Hay' date='04 August 2010 - 10:05 PM' timestamp='1280952333' I usually do my best to avoid saying childish things like that.

Apologies to all.

Well once again I have doubts about you old sport. Since the only person you insulted was me, do you really think you can get yourself off the hook by apologizing to OTHER members?

[William Kelly]

My purpose isn't to prove or disprove Oswald's role

Since your government and media have been trumpeting to the world that Lee Oswald was the assassin, and since Hollywood (Oliver Stone) has been parroting a slightly different version of the same story, then is it fair to say that you, Bill Kelly, agree with Harrrison Livingstone when he says "It doesen't matter whether Owald was innocent or guilty?

I am just trying to get past all the double -- talk that has dominated America ever since 1963,. and find out what people really think.

Why do I have to defend my government? Why do I have to defend Ollie Stone? Why do you associate me with Joestein and Garrison, who I have naver met, and Livingcrap, who like Fetzer, gives Conspiracy Theorists a bad name.

I don't even know what Livingston says so I wouldn't know if I agree with him about anything.

You want to get past the doubletalk? Then you better stop double talking yerself.

You ask if Oswald is guilty? And I ask what is he guilty of? Being a Patsy? Yes.

And only your friends can frame you for a murder you didn't commit.

BK

[J. Raymond Carroll]

And only your friends can frame you for a murder you didn't commit.

BK

If you care to look it up, you will find that that is almost a DIRECT QUOTE from Vincent Bugliosi.

Thank you Bill. At last we know where you are really coming from.

Does anyone else here see what I mean by American DOUBLE-TALK?

[J. Raymond Carroll]

Jim Garrison, privately and publicly, always maintained that Oswald was innocent

Jim Garrison was an officer of the court (although he never passed the bar exam)

Here is what Jim Garrison told the jury in his opening statement at the trial of Clay Shaw. ( An officer of the court is ALWAYS under oath:

Criminal conspiracy is the agreement or combination of two or more persons for the specific purpose of committing any crime; provided that an agreement or combination to commit a crime shall not amount to a criminal conspiracy unless, in addition to such agreement or combination, one or more of such parties does an act in furtherance of the object of the agreement or combination."

As required by the definition of criminal conspiracy, the State will prove the following overt acts:

LEE HARVEY OSWALD taking a rifle to the Texas Book Depository in Dallas, Texas on or before November 22, 1963.

Edited August 5, 2010 by J. Raymond Carroll

[William Kelly]

And only your friends can frame you for a murder you didn't commit.

BK

If you care to look it up, you will find that that is almost a DIRECT QUOTE from Vincent Bugliosi.

Thank you Bill. At last we know where you are really coming from.

Does anyone else here see what I mean by American DOUBLE-TALK?

I'd like a citation for that one.

I thought I made that line up all by myself.

If Bugliosi said it, he must have been quoting, or plagerizing me.

Good ole American DOUBLE-TALK from a Mick who puts me

in the same basket as Garrison, Livingstone, Bugliosi and all

Americans, even though everybody knows where I'm coming from, as

I wear it on my sleve, and you can try to knock it off if you want to.

BK

[Guest Robert Morrow]

"Mr. Carroll is the Spartacus version of Walter Sheridan." - Jim DiEugenio

By that you mean Walter Sheridan, someone who SUPPOSEDLY was trying to find out who killed John Kennedy BUT IN REALITY was doing everything he could to thwart that by blowing up the investigation of Jim Garrison, as it touched on the soft underbelly of the FBI, CIA and LBJ?

One thing about Mr. Raymond Carroll, he does not believe Lee Harvey Oswald was AN US INTELLIGENT AGENT. I think he really, really, really tries to convey that Lee Harvey Oswald was not AN US INTELLIGENCE AGENT.

As for me, I think it is obviously by now that Lee Harvey Oswald was some type of US intelligence agent probably CIA, perhaps starting off as ONI with his fake defection.

I don't think Lee Harvey Oswald shot anyone - (well, he on Tippet, I have not studied that case closely, but he was definitely framed on the JFK killing, so Tippet was a very likely frame up, too.)

So Raymond Carroll and I agree and disgree. We agree in thinking Lee Harvey Oswald was completely innocent in the JFK assassination, but I do think Lee Harvey Oswald was an US intelligence agent and Carroll is really, really sure LHO was not an US INTELLIGENCE AGENT.

As far as I can tell - and I could be way wrong on this one - Carroll just does not seem too interested in WHO murdered JFK or WHY they murdered JFK. That is the impression I get.

Edited August 5, 2010 by Robert Morrow

[John Simkin]

"Mr. Carroll is the Spartacus version of Walter Sheridan." - Jim DiEugenio

Sheridan was supposed to be inquiring about the JFK case for RFK and NBC.

He never did any of that. He wasn't really interested. WHat he was interested in was a.) muddying the waters, and b.) doing a hatchet job on Garrison.

If Carroll does not believe that Oswald was some kind of intelligence operative then he is even worse than I thought.

Are you saying that I am muddying the waters?

[John Simkin]

No I am not.

But why did you let certain people back on who do?

I won't name names but his initials are DVP.

I am an old-fashioned liberal who believes in free speech. It is something that has got me into trouble with a lot of JFK researchers who do not share my ideals.

[Michael Hogan]

Ray,

I am the one who said something to Martin.

Martin,thank you for apologizing (in public, no less!). That is something that alot of people don't or won't do. It speaks well of you.

Kathy

Maybe you should consider saying something to Carroll.

There is Not A SHRED OF EVIDENCE that Lee Oswald gave away radar secrets. You just made that up , You xxxx!

[J. Raymond Carroll]

GARRISON: To sum up: Oswald was involved in the conspiracy;

And of course this is the same Garrison who claimed IN COURT that Shaw, Ferrie and Lee Oswald plotted the assassination.

So if anyone wants to argue that Lee Oswald was innocent (as I do) it would be mighty foolish to cite Garrison as a spokesman for the defense.

[J. Raymond Carroll]

On June 29, 1964 Warren Commission staff member Fredda Scobey sent a three page memo to Warren Commission member Senator Richard RUssell concerning Marina's propensity to lie.

Nice to know that David Von Pein is not the only Warren Commission supporter on the forum.

THe Warren Commission persecuted Marina because she could give them no EVIDENCE that her husband had any hand act or part in the assassination.

She wrote, "It appears that staff members will be present at the meeting this afternoon. Several of them wished to present the question of whether Marina Oswald should be further cross-examined

Which only goes to show that they were busy investigating Marina, when they SHOULD have been investigating the assassination.

The HSCA summed up the record with: "Marina's testimony is so full of confusion and contradiction that without the catalystic element of cross-examination it reads like a nightmare."

THe HSCA was another phoney investigation, and it should be no surprise that the testimony of an innocent widow might be confusing.

BTW, Marina really likes Garrison. When I mentioned his name to her, she lit up like a Xmas tree.

Yes Garrison was a man of great charisma, and Marina did find him charming.

But the Christmas lights became distinctly dimmer when I demonstrated to her that Garrison was accusing her husband of murder. (in a successful murder conspiracy, every member of the conspiracy is as guilty of murder as the ones who actually pull the trigger.

[J. Raymond Carroll]

[quote name='William Kelly' date='05 August 2010 - 01:03 AM' timestamp='1280963013'

You want to get past the doubletalk? Then you better stop double talking yerself.

You ask if Oswald is guilty? And I ask what is he guilty of? Being a Patsy? Yes.

BK

Very clever, Bill, but there is one problem:

Lee Oswald could not be guilty of being a Patsy. There is NO SUCH CRIME AS BEING A PATSY.