Shot Sequence Descriptions

[Chris Davidson]

I went back and read some of the descriptions of the shot/head shot/s order.

I'm interested in what you think the shot sequence is, pertaining to the descriptions provided.

I will mix Nix and Z into this, a little later.

thanks,

chris

[Pat Speer]

I went back and read some of the descriptions of the shot/head shot/s order.

I'm interested in what you think the shot sequence is, pertaining to the descriptions provided.

I will mix Nix and Z into this, a little later.

thanks,

chris

Chapters 5 through 9 at patspeer.com are devoted to the eyewitness evidence, and show how the eyewitness statements, when taken as a whole, are quite clear on several points. One is that the first of the three shots heard by most witnesses hit Kennedy. Two is that the last two shots were fired quite close together. Although slightly less clear, a third point was nevertheless surprising--I certainly didn't expect it. The head shot was the FIRST of the last two shots fired closely together, and the second of the three shots heard by most witnesses.

As a demonstration of the first point...let's look at the witnesses at Houston and Main, nearly equidistant from the TSBD and the knoll.

Eugene L. Boone (11-22-63 report, 19H508) “I heard three shots coming from the vicinity of where the president’s car was.” (3-25-64 testimony before the Warren Commission, 3H291-295) “we heard what we thought to be a shot. And there seemed to be a pause between the first shot and the second shot and third shots—a little longer pause.” (7-23-86 testimony in televised mock trial, On Trial: Lee Harvey Oswald) Note: Boone's description of the shots comes from the transcript of this testimony reported in Vincent Bugliosi's book, Reclaiming History, but was not shown on the U.S. version of the program. "So the first and second shots were closer together, then there was an interval, and then the third shot." Analysis: when Boone described the shots before the Warren Commission he certainly made it sound that there was a bigger gap between the first two shots than between the second and third. And yet he later testified to the opposite. Now, when he told the Warren Commission "a little longer pause" he may have been talking about the pause between the second and third shots, but that seems unlikely, particularly in that his co-workers almost all said the last two shots were closer together (as we shall see). This leads me to conclude Boone changed his testimony between 64 and 86, after being prepped by prosecuting attorney Vincent Bugliosi. (Since I haven't seen the tapes of this mock trial, I don't know if defense attorney Gerry Spence was astute enough to catch this change, and force Boone to explain this change.) Even if one believes Boone was right the second time, of course, it's still a problem that he heard the shots come from the vicinity of the limousine, to the west of the the school book depository. Apparently changed story. Possible First shot hit 190-224 with last two shots bunched together. Possible LPM Scenario.

Jack Faulkner (11-22-63 report, 19H511) “I heard three shots and the crowd began to move en masse toward Elm..” (No More Silence p.215-223, published 1998) “When they turned back onto Elm Street and headed toward the Triple Underpass, then I heard three very distinct shots. I’ll never forget the sequence: there was a pause between number one and number two, then number two and three were rapid. At the time, I actually thought that someone had attempted to shoot the President and possibly the Secret Service had shot back. It was that fast!” Analysis: First shot hit 190-224. Last two shots bunched together.

C.M. Jones (11-22-63 report, 19H512) “I heard an explosion followed in about 3 to 5 seconds later two more explosions. I am certain that I recognized the second two as being that of gunfire.” Analysis: the grouping of the last two explosions as “two more” suggests there was no significant space between these shots. Probable first shot hit 190-224. Last two shots probably bunched together.

A.D. McCurley (11-22-63 report, 19H514) “I heard a retort and I immediately recognized it as the sound of a rifle. I started running around the corner where I knew the President’s car should be and in a matter of a few seconds heard a second shot and then a third shot.” Analysis: by failing to mention any gap between the second and third shots, McCurley suggests little time lapsed between these shots. Probable first shot hit 190-224. Last two shots probably bunched together.

L.C. Smith (11-22-63 report, 19H516) “I heard the first shot, which I thought was a backfire, then the second shot and third shot rang out. I knew then that this was gun shots.” Analysis: once again “then the second shot and third shot” without mention of a five second space between the two. Probable first shot hit 190-224. Last two shots probably bunched together.

Buddy Walthers (11-22-63 report, 19H518) “I heard a retort and I immediately recognized it to be a rifle shot. I immediately started running west across Houston Street…At this time, it was not determined if, in fact, this first retort and 2 succeeding retorts were of a rifle, however, in my own mind, I knew.” (12-13-63 article in the Dallas Morning News) "Walthers and Sweatt were within a block of the slaying site when the sniper opened fire. They agree with other witnesses that the assassin fired only three shots."(7-23-64 testimony before the Warren Commission, 7H544-552) “I remember three shots…I told her that sounded like rifle and I ran across here and there is wall along in here and I hopped over it.” Analysis: again we see no mention of an appreciable gap between the second and third shots. Probable first shot hit 190-224. Last two shots probably bunched together.

Harry Weatherford (11-23-63 report, 19H502) “I heard a loud report which I thought was a railroad torpedo, as it sounded as if it came from the railroad yard…then I heard a second report which had more of an echo report and thought to myself, that this was a rifle and I started towards the corner when I heard the third report.” Analysis: although he confirms some of the other statements that the first shot sounded different than the second, he doesn’t tell us enough about the spacing to come to any other conclusions. Too vague.

Ralph Walters (11-23-63 report, 19H505) “I heard what was shots, three in number.” Analysis: too vague.

Lummie Lewis (11-23-63 report, 19H526) “I heard three shots.” Analysis: too vague.

Luke Mooney (11-23-63 report, 19H528) “I heard a shot and I immediately started running towards the front of the motorcade and within seconds heard a second and a third shot.” (3-25-64 testimony before the Warren Commission, 3H281-290) “we heard this shot ring out. At that time, I didn’t realize it was a shot…there was a short lapse between these shots. I can still hear them very distinctly—between the first and second shot. The second and third shot was pretty close together, but there was a short lapse between the first and second shot. Why, I don’t know.” (No More Silence p. 224-228, published 1998) “As the motorcade passed by us, we never attempted to follow it around the corner at Houston and were still standing there when we heard a shot ring out. I knew immediately that it wasn’t a backfire…Several of us started moving toward Houston Street at the moment we heard the first shot. By the time we reached the street (Main), the second shot had been fired, then there was a slight hesitation between the second and third. We had already heard all three shots before we had reached Main Street. Analysis: Mooney's early testimony indicates the first two shots were further apart than the "slight hesitation" between the second and third he described later. First shot hit 190-224. Last two shots bunched together.

J.L Oxford (11-23-63 report, 19H530) “we heard what I thought to be shots.” Analysis: too vague.

Allan Sweatt (11-22-63 report, 19H531) “I heard a shot and about 7 seconds later another shot and approximately 2 or 3 seconds later a third shot which sounded to me like a rifle and coming from the vicinity of Elm and Houston Street.” (12-13-63 article in the Dallas Morning News) "Walthers and Sweatt were within a block of the slaying site when the sniper opened fire. They agree with other witnesses that the assassin fired only three shots." First shot hit 190-224. Last two shots bunched together.

John Wiseman (11-23-63 report, 19H535) “I heard a shot and I knew something had happened. I ran at once to the corner of Houston and Main Street and out into the street when the second and third shots rang out.” Analysis: by placing the second and third shots at the same moment in time—when he ran out into the street—Wiseman suggests that these shots were close together. First shot hit 190-224. Last two shots bunched together.

Roger Craig (11-23-63 FBI report, 23H817) “He heard a shot and ran around the corner onto Houston Street.” (11-25-63 FBI report, 24H23) “he heard a noise which he presumed to be a gun shot. He states he immediately started west on Main Street toward Houston Street, and while en route, he heard two additional noises which he also presumed to be gun shots.” (4-1-64 testimony before the Warren Commission, 6H260-273) “I heard an explosion…I knew it was a shot, but—uh—I didn’t want to believe it. But a few seconds later, I heard another explosion and, this time, I knew it was a shot. And, as I began to run, I heard a third one.” (When asked about the spacing of the shots) “The first one was uh-about two or three seconds…Well, it was quite a pause in there. It could have been a little longer.” (When asked about the spacing between the second two shots) “Not more than two seconds. It was—they were real rapid.” (March, 1968 interview in the L.A. Free Press) "Well the motorcade came by about 12:30 and made a right on Houston; several seconds later it made a left on Elm Street. I didn't watch it make a left; I was watching the rest of the cars behind it, but I estimated the time it took it to make a left on Elm Street. And then I heard the first shot. Well, I began to run towards Houston Street...And before I reached the corner--which was about 15 yards away--the third shot had already sounded...There was one report, a pause, and then two reports (claps hands twice quickly) just like that. Impossible for a man to pump a bolt action rifle that fast." (2-14-69 testimony in the trial of Clay Shaw) “I heard a shot. I immediately ran towards Houston…Before I reached the corner, the other two shots.” (Self-penned article When You Kill a President, 1971) "The President had passed and was turning west on Elm Street . . . as if there were no people, no cars, the only thing in my world at that moment was a rifle shot! I bolted toward Houston Street. I was fifteen steps from the corner -- before I reached it two more shots had been fired. Telling myself that it wasn't true and at the same time knowing that it was, I continued to run." (4-7-74 taped interview with Lincoln Carle, shown in the film Two Men in Dallas, 1975) "The President came by and they made the right turn onto Houston Street and--oh, I'll say, y'know--a few seconds later--to give him time to get to Elm Street and make the left--I heard what was a, well, I call it a report, a gunshot. And I said, I said "Oh, my God" and I turned and started towards Houston Street running just as hard as I could and I was probably 15 steps from Houston Street and before I reached those 15 steps I heard two more reports. And I immediately went to Elm Street." (when asked how long this took) "Not more than a few seconds." Analysis: while Craig made a number of wild and inconsistent assertions over the years, his initial impression of the shots--that the last two were fired closely together--was locked in stone. First shot hit 190-224. Last two shots bunched together.

Seymour Weitzman (11-23-63 Affidavit to Dallas County, 24H228) “I was standing at the corner of Main and Houston…my partner was behind me and asked me something. I looked back at him and heard three shots. I ran in a northwest direction.” (11-23-63 FBI report, CD5 p. 124) "Shortly after the President's car turned the corner along Elm Street, he was looking in another direction and heard three sounds in rapid succession, which he beliebved to have been gunshots. He believed these sounds to have come from a northwesterly direction from where he was standing." (11-25-63 FBI report, CD5 p.126) “as the motorcade went out of his line of vision…he heard three shots ring out and immediately ran to the point where Elm Street turns to go under the underpass.” (4-1-64 testimony before the Warren Commission, 7H105-109) “we heard what we thought at that time was either a rifle shot or a firecracker.” (When asked how many shots) “Three distinct shots…First one, then the second two seemed to be simultaneously.” “There was a little period in between the second and third shot.” (When asked which gap was longer, between the first and second or between the second and third) “Between the first and second shot.” (Interview with CBS, broadcast 6-25-67) (Describing the shots) "Well, just three quick bursts, like bang-bang-bang". Analysis: while Weitzman neglected to put a space in his re-enactment of the shots for CBS, his 3 "bangs" are so close together that his version is completely at odds with the LPM scenario. First shot hit 190-224. Last two shots bunched together.

Harold Elkins (11-26-63 report, 19H540) “Just a few seconds after the President’s car had passed my location I heard a shot ring out, a couple of seconds elapsed and then two more shots ring out.” Analysis: by grouping the last two shots together, Elkins implies they were fired close together. Probable first shot hit 190-224. Last two shots probably bunched together.

W.W. Mabra (11-27-63 report, 19H541) “we heard three shots. Officer Smith said…”That sounded like a deer rifle.” (No More Silence p. 518-529, published 1998) "After the procession passed, we continued standing there talking when, in just a short time, we heard the first shot which sounded like a backfire from an automobile or truck well down in the Triple Underpass. That had happened a lot of times in the past and had sounded like a rifle shot. But when that first shot went off, of course, it startled both of us. We looked at each other, kind of caught our breath, wondering, since they had just gone around the corner. Then the second shot went off. Smith said to me, 'That was a deer rifle!' 'It sure was,' I responded. Then in a very few seconds a third went off. We then went around the corner as hard as we could run and could see people over on the grassy knoll. As we were crossing Houston running in the direction of the grassy knoll, I could see what looked like a swirl of smoke...By the time I got there, the smoke had disappeared; evidently it was from a cigarette..." (On his discussion with the Warren Commission) "they were trying to shake my story that a bolt action rifle could be worked with three shots being fired in six seconds. That was because my recollection of the timing was that the three shots were spaced within two to four seconds apart. It seemed like they were spaced longer between the second and third than the first and second." Analysis: while Mabra's recent recollections support that the first two shots were fired closer together than the second and third, he also rejects that the third shot could have been fired as much as five seconds after the second, and claims to have seen smoke on the knoll. This makes his statements as un-supportive of the LPM scenario as they are the first shot hit scenario consistent with the statements of so many others. So let's just call it a tie and say he's too vague. Too vague. Saw smoke on knoll.

Should one assume that standing on the north side of Main caused these deputies to hear the shots in a configuration different than how they were fired, there are also the words of these Main Street witnesses, who were on the south side of Main in the courthouse.

Ruth Smith (12-21-63 FBI interview, CD206 p.9) “She was on the second floor balcony of the old red courthouse…she heard what she felt was a shot. She stated there was a pause then two more shots fairly close together…At this time people seemed to panic…She looked back toward President Kennedy’s car after the first shot and thinks he raised his hands to his face. The car seemed to slow or perhaps stop after the first shot and then just after the third shot a Secret Service man from the second car ran up…and threw himself into the rear seat.” Analysis: So here we have our first eyewitness, and she confirms what we’ve gathered from the statements of all the deputies: the first shot hit. Her statement that she thinks Kennedy raised his hands to his face after the first shot can only be interpreted as a reference to his reaching towards his throat in the frames just after frame 224. And yet she’d only heard one shot by this point; according to the LPM scenario she should have heard two--one at 160 and one at 224. First shot hit 190-224. Last two shots bunched together.

John Solon (1-8-64 FBI report, 24H535) “was in the Main Street entrance of the Old Courthouse…heard three shots which sounded as follows: First shot, pause, two shots, then echoes of the shots. Mr. Solon advised he would judge that approximately five and one-half seconds was taken for all three shots.” Analysis: first shot hit 190-224. Last two shots bunched together.

Robert West (2-13-69 testimony in the trial of Clay Shaw)(When asked if he'd heard anything unusual after the limousine turned down Elm Street) "Some time after it turned on Elm Street what sounded to me at that time as what I thought was backfiring, a motorcycle." (When asked how many backfires he heard) "Four". (When asked if these backfires sounded the same) "Yes". (When asked what the first "backfire" sounded like) "A motorcycle backfired." (When asked what the second and subsequent "backfire" sounded like) "A rifle fired...It appeared to me it was rifle fire after the second. The first and the second my response was it was motorcycle backfire." (When asked again to describe the third sound) "Rifle fire." (When asked if these were loud sounds) "Yes, sir." (When asked from where he thought this sounds were coming) "The sound came from the northwest quadrant of Dealey Plaza...This entire area north and west of Elm Street." (When asked if he remembered the spacing of the shots) "No, sir." (When asked what happened after the shooting) "When I left my position on the corner of Main and Houston and went across into Dealey Plaza area, there was quite a commotion. A police motorcycle and several men coming up, what is indicated on the aerial photograph as the grassy knoll. When I got over to the motorcycle there were several men up behind the wood stockade fence along the north edge of the grassy knoll." (When asked to confirm that he heard four sounds and thought the first two were backfires and the second two rifle fire) "Right." (When asked if he felt sure about the number of sounds) "That was my response on that day." (When asked to pinpoint where he was standing) "I was standing at the point indicated by the pin here at the southeast corner of the intersection of Main and Houston." Analysis: West was the Dallas County Surveyor. Since the Secret Service, FBI, and Warren Commission all used his services to make plats of Dealey Plaza, and since they all came to different conclusions, and kept changing the locations for the shots, it only makes sense that he would grow suspicious of the official story, and suspect there'd been more than 3 shots. Still, he testified that he thought he'd heard four sounds from the very beginning. Heard Four Shots.

[Chris Davidson]

Thanks Pat,

From Landis' description, do you or others believe he is referring to a "second report" as the second of the last two described as "close together" or the second of 1-3?

chris

Edited August 10, 2010 by Chris Davidson

[Chris Davidson]

Next up.

[Chris Davidson]

What part of the sequence would this 'second shot" pertain to?

chris

[Chris Davidson]

Shots

Jean Hill in agreement with the SS agents descriptions.

[Chris Davidson]

The "next" shot or the third shot. Not much of a distinction.

Sounds like he is describing 2 shots very close together.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

The "next" shot or the third shot. Not much of a distinction.

Sounds like he is describing 2 shots very close together.

Chris;

The illogical becomes quite logical when one recognizes that the SECOND SHOT/aka Z313 as well as the THIRD SHOT/aka directly in front of James Altgens location, each struck JFK in the head.

And, since I am quite obviously neither smarter than nor more qualified than were the SS and the FBI (assassination re-enactments & survey plats dated 12/5/63 & 2/7/64), there is also nothing which is of any degree of difficulty in this.

Other than all that "Specter & Company" went through to in manipulation of the facts; evidence; and witnesses, in order to come up with the BS theory of "THE SHOT THAT MISSED".

"There is no Magic! However, Politicians, not unlike Magicians, can make things disappear"

Tom Purvis

[Pat Speer]

Thanks Pat,

From Landis' description, do you or others believe he is referring to a "second report" as the second of the last two described as "close together" or the second of 1-3?

chris

Landis, as Hill, Hargis, and Jackie Kennedy, only heard two shots. One that hit Kennedy in the back, and one that hit Kennedy in the head. It seems clear from this that he either interpreted the last two shots as one shot, or was so shocked by what he saw that he failed to appreciate the last shot.

This didn't stop Vincent Bugliosi from twisting the words of Landis and Jackie to suggest the first shot they heard was the mythical first shot miss. What, did he think they failed to notice one of the two shots striking Kennedy? What nonsense!

[Chris Davidson]

Bill Newman's reaction (cower) at approx 331-332.

I do not believe he is reacting to the 313 head shot. It is much too late for a 313 reaction.

chris

[David Josephs]

I can understand how echoes and such may cause different sounds to be heard in different places yet Bowers was in a spot that would have had a direct line of sound from the picket fence and possibly much less echo than those standing in the plaza surrounded by buildings..

I've always felt his description of the loudest sounds was most accurate and has the greatest amount of corroborating testimony.

Surprised he is not mentioned in the above rundown of witnesses

DJ

Mark Lane: Mr Bowers, how many shots did you hear?

Lee Bowers: There were three shots and these were spaced with one shot, then a pause and then two shots in very close order, such as perhaps (knocking on table) knock ..... knock-knock. Almost on top of each other, while there was some pause between the first and the second shots.

Lane: Did you tell that to the Dallas Police?

Bowers: Yes, I told this to the police and then also told it to the FBI, and also I had a discussion two or three days later with them concerning this, and they made no comment other than the fact that when stated that I felt like the third and the second and third shot could not have been fired from the same rifle, they reminded me that I was not an expert. And I had to agree (Bowers smiles sourly).

[Chris Davidson]

David,

I chose these descriptions on purpose.

Reread George Hickey's:

He states "the first shot of the second two".

It's wordplay about the shot order.

It more than agrees with Bower's.

A government agent behind JFK, and a witness with a clear memory.

chris

[Chris Davidson]

Bill Newman's reaction (cower) at approx 331-332.

I do not believe he is reacting to the 313 head shot. It is much too late for a 313 reaction.

chris

Notice Nix frame 319, then the succeeding camera movement dropping.

Is this indicative of a shot at 313?

I believe so.

chris

[Chris Davidson]

The cycle cop most closely flanking JFK.

Note when he turns his head. First toward JFK? and then away towards the knoll.

He is reacting to what Newman is, at that point in time. imo

chris

[Chris Davidson]

Watch Z's movement. This gif consists of a Nix starting frame and equivalent Z frame 331-332.

Look at his right shoulder at 331-332.

It is dipping down. imo

Take a look again at the other stabilization.

chris

Edited August 11, 2010 by Chris Davidson