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(Merged) Fetzer / Burton Apollo Hoax debate thread


Evan Burton
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Guest James H. Fetzer

Jack,

The discussion on that forum is pretty warped. One "JayUtah" even claims I would not debate him

because he didn't have a Ph.D. But if that were my attitude, I would be debating almost no one

on this forum, where I wind up exchanging views with almost everyone, including Evan Burton!

Could you please just post the photos in sequence without the rest of the post? It would serve

my purpose better to have larger images and less contextual information: just the moon rover

photos, please! Then Evan can post his five-to-seven part commentary, I will respond, etcetera.

Many thanks!

Jim

In the interest of readers of this "debate" I offer this quote of moderator Burton on another forum:

"It is Jack White who utters the lie, and with a total lack of logic.

He claims he admires the achievement but then desecrates and denigrates the achievements of Project Apollo.

He is a hypocrite of the first order."

Readers are entitled to know of Burton's biased agenda.

Jack

Edited by James H. Fetzer
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Why is Jack being allowed to post comments, Gary? He is not a participant; his sole purpose is to post images because Jim seems unable to do so. I should also point out that what I - or Jim / Jack - say off this Forum is no concern to the debate. If this is not the case, then I have comments posted off-site to post.

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I should also mention that Jack has failed to give any image numbers. He "claims" to have been unable to get them but they have been pointed out to him previously. Why would Jack be so reluctant to allow you to see the original images? Let's have a look. My first rebuttal follows.

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Okay - No 1. Jim has asked Jack to post this image (and Jack has not provided any image number). Then notice that some of the "images" he posts are a collage of several images - none with an image number - that I have to address. This is typical of Jack White's attempt to deceive you (and stop me answering your questions). Anyway, I suspect that a number of images that Jack will posts can be found here. For those who would like to examine the full image that Jim has asked Jack to post should look at AS17-137-20979.

Now the first thing I would ask people to consider is this: if the images were faked on a set and there were no tracks, then the only explanation is that they lowered it onto the set. We know they had built a working version of the LRV (Lunar Roving Vehicle, or the rover), so if they were 'faking' the images... why not drive the LRV onto the 'set'? Why not roll it into position and then remove footprints (if required - the 'stage hands' could wear lunar boots and therefore the footprints would look quite normal). The answer is that the wire wheels of the LRV threw up dust - thus the repair necessary as shown in the image. This dust could cover up the tracks made by the LRV.

Have a look at the image taken not long before 20979, of a greater view of the area: AS17-137-20976. Have a look at the area and how many tracks you can see.

Lack of tracks will occur in some locations.

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Guest James H. Fetzer

RESPONSE TO BURTON'S 1st REPLY:

Evan suggests that, if they were faking these photos, then why not roll a rover into position and create rover tracks? To which I reply, these guys were not rocket scientists and they made mistakes. Who would think that those who covered-up the assassination of JFK would plant a weapon that cannot have fired the bullets that killed him to frame a man who was not even on the 6th floor at the time of the shooting? Lee H. Oswald had neither means nor opportunity, much less motive. (See http://jamesfetzer.blogspot.com/2009/11/dealey-plaza-revisited.html)

Mistakes were made; otherwise, we would not be able to expose these shenanigans. Here Jack has presented a wide variety of different images of the moon rover, none of which record any tracks from its having driven to the locations shown. Some are up close, others more distant--but they converge in the fact that none of them show the tracks that should have been created if the rover had actually been driven to those locations and the photographs were real, which provides powerful evidence that they are fake.

Evan responds that the tracks were "covered up" by dust created when the rover moved. If that were true, presumably there should be no tracks from any rover anywhere. In fact, the rover moved very slowly and, in the rarefied atmosphere of the moon, dust particles would not have remained suspended in air long enough to cover up any tracks. Evan should post photos of rovers with tracks, which will show it made tracks. But his claim that it SOMETIMES LEFT TRACKS but OTHER TIMES NOT strikes me as simply incoherent.

I do not see how the two images he (Burton) adds support his case. If tracks are there, I can't see them. A stronger rebuttal might have been to argue that rovers never leave rover tracks because of the dust they create. But that argument is refuted by photos showing rover tracks. So either they toss up dust or they don't. If they do, then we should see NO photos of rover tracks. If they don't, we should see ONLY photos with rover tracks. Given the posted photos with no tracks, Evan appears to confront a dilemma.

Okay - No 1. Jim has asked Jack to post this image (and Jack has not provided any image number). Then notice that some of the "images" he posts are a collage of several images - none with an image number - that I have to address. This is typical of Jack White's attempt to deceive you (and stop me answering your questions). Anyway, I suspect that a number of images that Jack will posts can be found here. For those who would like to examine the full image that Jim has asked Jack to post should look at AS17-137-20979.

Now the first thing I would ask people to consider is this: if the images were faked on a set and there were no tracks, then the only explanation is that they lowered it onto the set. We know they had built a working version of the LRV (Lunar Roving Vehicle, or the rover), so if they were 'faking' the images... why not drive the LRV onto the 'set'? Why not roll it into position and then remove footprints (if required - the 'stage hands' could wear lunar boots and therefore the footprints would look quite normal). The answer is that the wire wheels of the LRV threw up dust - thus the repair necessary as shown in the image. This dust could cover up the tracks made by the LRV.

Have a look at the image taken not long before 20979, of a greater view of the area: AS17-137-20976. Have a look at the area and how many tracks you can see.

Lack of tracks will occur in some locations.

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Okay, Image No2 - which again Jack has failed to give an image number for, despite being asked to do so.

It's AS17-143-21933 (hi-res image linked).

Once again I will ask when it plainly shown they created a lunar rover that could drive - whether or not it was filmed on the Moon - why they wouldn't simply drive / roll it into position? Jim may say they made a mistake, but think about it... isn't it easier and more logical to push the LRV into position for a "photo shoot". Why would someone say "Hey - get a crane and lower this baby into position!". Think.

Now, why isn't there a record of the tracks?

1. The lunar regolith varied; in some places it was softer an in other harder. This is why tracks can appear in some areas but not in others.

2. Take a close look at how the LRV tyres were constructed; it was a special reinforced wire mesh (since they couldn't have inflated tyres on the Moon) and didn't always leave tracks the way regular car tyres would, especially where the regolith was harder.

LRV_wheel.jpg

3. Was the image Jack shows taken immediately after the LRV was parked? No. It was parked about 170 hrs 01 min Ground Elapsed Time (GET) and the image was taken at about 170 hrs 19 mins GET (source). That's 18 odd minutes of activity around the LRV, when tracks can be obliterated. They were also specifically working around the rear of the LRV, removing samples and equipment for transport to Earth. Have a look at the LRV just as it was being parked... and what do you see? Tracks! Compare the rear of the LRV here with the rear of the LRV in Jack's image.

post-2326-097668400 1283417482_thumb.jpg

(AS17-143-21924, cropped - original available through link)

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In the interests of getting this thing rolling, here are the image numbers and links to the images Jack used in his original studies. Gary, feel free to move this to the other thread if you deem it appropriate.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/uploads/post-5621-023483100%201283279937_thumb.jpg

Image number - AS17-137-20979

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/uploads/post-5621-095921600%201283279948_thumb.jpg

Image number - AS17-143-21933

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/uploads/post-5621-036518400%201283279959_thumb.jpg

Image number - AS17-140-21354

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/uploads/post-5621-070676600%201283279984_thumb.jpg

Image number - AS15-88-11902

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/uploads/post-5621-089437100%201283280026_thumb.jpg

Image number - AS15-85-11470

Image number - AS15-85-11471

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/uploads/post-5621-018472200%201283280033_thumb.jpg

Image number - AS15-85-11437

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/uploads/post-5621-021770500%201283280041_thumb.jpg

Image number - AS16-109-17797

I've changed the thumbnails of Jack's studies to links due to the limit on posting images, but they're pretty much in order as posted.

My studies posted on the Aulis website ALL HAVE NASA NUMBERS.

My studies posted on the Aulis website are all in TIFF format.

TIFF format cannot be used on the Simkin forum. Therefore I posted here my JPG versions, which do NOT have the numbers.

To post here versions with NASA numbers I would have to search for all the TIFF files and convert them to JPG. This would

serve no purpose other than to humor Burton. THE NUMBERS ARE NOT NECESSARY. The studies speak for themselves. Burton

seeks to insinuate some sinister motive to the lack of numbers when there is nonesuch. The numbers on the studies are all

available at http://www.aulis.com/jackstudies_index1.html so just go there and the numbers are available.

When I originally did the studies they were for my own use...not to be used for target practice by lonenutters. At that time

there was no need to put number with photos. All the images can be found at the Apollo Image Gallery. I found them

there, and so can anyone else. I am not obligated to provide them for the convenience of others. Some of the studies were

done more than ten years ago, and no study has ever been debunked by Burton or anyone else.

Jack

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