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(Merged) Fetzer / Burton Apollo Hoax debate thread


Evan Burton
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Recently someone posted here a photo showing "LRV lunar tracks". I decided to perform

computer analysis on it. My analysis is posted on Aulis, and reproduced below:

Jack

You've detected dust on the lens.

Look at the images immediately before and after the image in question. It's part of a pan. The other images show the same feature in the same place relative to the frame of the image. If it was a badly lit backdrop, it would be in the same place relative to the background.

http://history.nasa.gov/alsj/a16/AS16-117-18813.jpg

http://history.nasa.gov/alsj/a16/AS16-117-18814.jpg

http://history.nasa.gov/alsj/a16/AS16-117-18815.jpg

http://history.nasa.gov/alsj/a16/AS16-117-18816.jpg

http://history.nasa.gov/alsj/a16/AS16-117-18817.jpg

AS16-117-18814 (before)

AS16-117-18814.jpg

AS16-117-18816 (after)

AS16-117-18816.jpg

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UNARGUABLY, all Apollo PANORAMAS relied on ARTISTIC RETOUCHING TO make photos match.

By definition, artistic retouching creates FAKED PHOTOS. As a matter of law, retouched photos

cannot be introduced into evidence as being genuine. Therefore, NASA FAKED PHOTOS like this.

Jack

This is purely a matter of semantics. If the original images used to create the stitched-together panorama are genuine, it's disingenuous to suggest that the panorama is a "faked photo", which suggests subterfuge.

For example, I recently visited Abu Dhabi, and took several photos of the Corniche. I later used software to stitch some of the images together into a panorama. Makes a neat desktop image. Using your definition, I created a faked photo - but it was created from originals. You can call my panorama a fake, but that doesn't mean the individual images it was composed from are fakes.

From a hoax point of view, it only makes sense to analyse images which are purported to be single Hasselblad images, with a reference number. Stitched panoramas are visually impressive, but should not be used for analytical purposes for various reasons. Analysis should only be done on the original images.

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Burton ought to concede defeat now. Jim is going to cover COMPUTER ENHANCEMENTS. There will be NO WAY

that Burton can argue that photos such as this one are genuine and unretouched original lunar photos. NO WAY!

Jack

Computer enhancement tells you that there was a lot a scanner noise on that image. Someone thought the image would look nicer if the scanner noise was blacked out.

Take a look at a copy of the image I found at this website - ftp://nssdcftp.gsfc.nasa.gov/miscellaneous/planetary/apollo/as11_40_5863.jpg

If you zoom in on the image you can see what appears to be scanner noise over the whole image. Here's a crop to show what I mean.

as11-40-5863-scanner-noise.jpg

It looks like someone had a copy of this image (or similar), didn't like the scanner noise in the sky, so cropped most of it out to make the sky look black. No great mystery.

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Then you guys admit that these are not genuine photos, but have been altered by retouching?

In law, retouched photos are not admissible as evidence. They are considered fake.

Jack

Are you looking at the images as contained in the original trans and negatives? Of course not.

You are looking at publication copies. In all of your years as a "ad guy" did you never retouch or otherwise alter an image for better results for publication? Change the exposure or contrast? (like your alteration of the Moorman to produce the fantasy you call badgeman)

Get real. If this is the best you have you lose....

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Here is another computer enhancement (subtraction of most colors). Maybe Mr. Light can tell us

why the darkest area of the scene is the best lighted.

Jack

Sure Jack....its called reflected light...from the surface. The telltale signs anyone with a photo lighting 101 level of knowlege can see. Just look at the long broad highlights on the ladder rungs, showing a HUGE reflector at ground level. Notice the position the highlights on the end buttons of the ladder rungs. They show the same. Notice the lighting direction and light quality on the astronaut and hatch area...again the same source. Shall we go on our will you do the correct thing and concede the point since you have it wrong?

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Then you guys admit that these are not genuine photos, but have been altered by retouching?

In law, retouched photos are not admissible as evidence. They are considered fake.

Jack

Like I said, a purely semantic argument at best , borderline disingenuous at worst.

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Then you guys admit that these are not genuine photos, but have been altered by retouching?

In law, retouched photos are not admissible as evidence. They are considered fake.

Jack

Like I said, a purely semantic argument at best , borderline disingenuous at worst.

Well, at least you're right about one thing.

"Jack, you've detected dust on the lens", would have to be one of the most disingenuous claims you've ever made, Dave.

Neither you or Lamson seem to be able to tap dance around the faked Apollo photos as fast as you used to.

But then that does comes with age.

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Then you guys admit that these are not genuine photos, but have been altered by retouching?

In law, retouched photos are not admissible as evidence. They are considered fake.

Jack

Like I said, a purely semantic argument at best , borderline disingenuous at worst.

Well, at least you're right about one thing.

"Jack, you've detected dust on the lens", would have to be one of the most disingenuous claims you've ever made, Dave.

Neither you or Lamson seem to be able to tap dance around the faked Apollo photos as fast as you used to.

But then that does comes with age.

Dave got it exactly right. I demo'ed that exact thing here on this forum a few years ago. You could not refute it then, just like now. All you have is smacktalk and not a single piece of empirical evidence in sight. Clearly nothing has changed with Duane Daman.

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Duane,

Your remarks regarding Craig's personal life, whether true or not, are way over the line.

One warning and one warning only - debate in a civil tone or you'll be placed on moderation.

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