(Merged) Fetzer / Burton Apollo Hoax debate thread

[Duane Daman]

Incredibly, a hoax believer hacked my EF account and posted messages under my name saying I believed Jack White was right after all! Amazing the depths some people will stoop to to try and discredit someone who has a different opinion to them.

I remember when that happened .. and incredibily, you, among a few other people here, thought it was me who did that..I would understand why you might think that though, considering the hacker posted two of my favorite Jack White studies, that we had recently been debating .. One showing the buggy tracks going right thru the middle of a deep crater, which would of course have flipped the Rover over if the photo had been real.. and the other study that showed the "alien shoe print on the moon", that could not have been made by an astronaut boot, though you claimed it was a double or triple print, and that's why it didn't match the other astronaut boot prints.

But what's really incredible is when Steve Ulman linked The World of the Strange forum here (where I was a member in good standing) with the purpose of ridiculing me here.. Shortly after that, you joined that forum to come after me, but one of the moderators asked you to either be polite or leave .. The next day that forum got hacked, never to recover again .. I remember it well because I lost hundereds of posts, many hours of work, and quite a stockpile of Apollo hoax articles and evidence.

Yep, some very incredible things do take place whenever Apollo is being debated.. but from my experience, it's still very much one sided as to which side does the most damage to the other.. Your side definately wins hands down on that one.

[Evan Burton]

Duane - you obviously know your own mind, so the question should be easy to answer:

Do you say that every single one of the Apollo astronauts who claimed they walked on / orbited the Moonpeople is a xxxx?

Very simple question. Yes or no is sufficient. Thank you.

BTW, let's just get something clear here.

Every single astronaut who has flown a lunar mission claims they went to the Moon. Those who were CMPs say they orbited the Moon, those who were LMPs or CMPs (caveat for Apollos 8 and 10, which were lunar missions but did not land), stick by their experiences on / around the Moon.

So Duane - you therefore must say that every single one of these people is a xxxx, claiming they walked on / orbited the Moon (especially since you have said that Gene Cernan is a bald faced xxxx).

Yes or no, please.

[Evan Burton]

The second link you posted was NOT an image.. It was text written by Jarrah White that looked to be cut off for some reason.

Well, no, it was an image. Here is my post.

Notice that the link ends in PNG. Although I have been there, it is not Papua New Guinea.

What is a PNG file extension?

Portable Network Graphics is a bitmapped image format that employs lossless data compression. PNG was created to improve upon and replace GIF (Graphics Interchange Format) as an image-file format not requiring a patent license.

[Evan Burton]

As for the constant character assassinations of Jarrah White, posted by you and your Apollo defending pals on apollohoax.net, all I can say is that the garbage you all spew about him there is as transparent as the rest of the tactics you use to defend the Apollo fraud.

Let the evidence about Jay Windley vs. Jarrah White speak for itself.

And here's an e-mail from Jarrah White to propagandist Phil Plait.

And finally, this is the type of TRASH that ALL conspiracy researchers have to endure while attempting to expose the Apollo fraud.

This would not be necessary if Apollo happened as advertised.

We have had sufficient talking about direct confrontations between the pro and con Apollo sides. I am happy that people have enough information to research the dispute for themselves, and make up their own minds.

Please make your final statements in regard to this subject, then we'll leave it.

As for this statement...

There are a multitude of interviews where the astronauts talk about moon hoax claims. Ask me for a list of them - please!

Please show me a list of interviews where any of the Apollo astronauts willingly sat down to conduct face to face interviews with any of the conspiracy researchers.. This does not include NASA propaganda documentaries where NASA controlled what could be discussed, or where the astronauts stated their opinions of the hoax evidence.

Let's review EXACTLY what I said:

If the Apollo astronauts have nothing to hide and are being truthful about landing on the Moon, then why pull the plug on interviews that ask hoax questions? .. I would think they would want to debunk the "conspiracy nuts" and the hoax evidence, for all the world to see.. But instead, they run away from them and their questions.

But your own posts contradict that! You yourself posted a video where a conspiracy theorist asked them about moon hoax claims. There are a multitude of interviews where the astronauts talk about moon hoax claims. Ask me for a list of them - please!

I'm not very good on logical fallacies, but I think what you have done here is change the goalposts. I said there are a multitude of times they talked about the hoax claims; I didn't say there are a multitude of time where they spoke to hoax believers. Even so, you think it is unreasonable for people who wish to now have private lives face fanatics who bombard them with insults and accusations?

As for Gene Cernan's claims of how he allegedly landed the Apollo 17 LM on the Moon, it's obvious to anyone not wearing Apollogist blinders, that he completely contradicted the Apollo 11 story of how Armstrong allegedly landed the LM, while at the same time claiming that they both landed it the same way... A bold faced lie, or an inability to get their stories straight? .. Either way, it's a lie.

You didn't allow for an aging person making a minor error about an event that happened 40 years ago.

Let's put it this way: can you say that you have never made a mis-statement? That you said something about your past which was not 100% accurate, that may have happened many years ago?

That you have never made a statement about a close associate that you made in error, that was not 100% accurate?

Be careful - what you say could come back at you and be used against what you now claim.

[Dave Greer]

I remember when that happened .. and incredibily, you, among a few other people here, thought it was me who did that..I would understand why you might think that though, considering the hacker posted two of my favorite Jack White studies, that we had recently been debating

Whoever it was must have been a member of this forum since they knew the password format, which I hadn't changed (my mistake). They likely had a grudge to bear against me re Apollo. Their IP address was traced to Savannah, Georgia. Join the dots.

But what's really incredible is when Steve Ulman linked The World of the Strange forum here (where I was a member in good standing) with the purpose of ridiculing me here.. Shortly after that, you joined that forum to come after me, but one of the moderators asked you to either be polite or leave .. The next day that forum got hacked, never to recover again .. I remember it well because I lost hundereds of posts, many hours of work, and quite a stockpile of Apollo hoax articles and evidence.

Why don't you contact the owner of the site and ask him why he took the site down? It's back up minus the forum apparently.

http://www.worldofthestrange.com/form_contact.htm

Oh, I wasn't impolite to you, it was someone from Scotland. Nothing wrong with being Scottish of course.

Yep, some very incredible things do take place whenever Apollo is being debated.. but from my experience, it's still very much one sided as to which side does the most damage to the other.. Your side definately wins hands down on that one.

Well, my subjective experience says exactly the opposite, such as your and Jack White's comments on this very forum about people who disagree with you. Looking at it objectively, there's plenty coming from both sides. Insisting otherwise is just playing the victim.

[Duane Daman]

Whoever it was must have been a member of this forum since they knew the password format, which I hadn't changed (my mistake). They likely had a grudge to bear against me re Apollo. Their IP address was traced to Savannah, Georgia. Join the dots.

I highly doubt that was the case, as I don't believe there are any internet providers in Savannah, Ga. but I could be wrong about that.. If so, I would like to see the proof of that statement and also who gave you that information .. Or are you able to obtain IP addresses and there locations on your own?

Like I said before, I was wrongly accused, since I know for a fact that my IP address is located with a company in Texas.

*edited to add ...

Apparently the location of my IP address is different from my internet provider location.. My Comcast IP provider is in Texas.

I would like to thank Kathy Beckett for clearing that up for me, as I don't know much about IP address locations.. Now I understand why you claimed the IP address came from Savannah, since you knew that's where I live.

The games you guys play here are unbelievable, but then I knew that when I returned to this forum.. So there's nobody to blame but myself for walking into your traps.

I've come to the conclusion that trying to discuss any political conspiracy on this forum, really isn't worth the bother.

btw, the World of the Strange link you posted claimed that the forum was coming back, not that it was back.. The date of that posting was August 20, 2009, so apparently the web site is not back and it remains to be seen if it will ever return.

The last time I e-mailed that web site owner, he told me that his entire data base had been destroyed, so even if it does return to the internet, all of the previous information is gone.

Edited December 2, 2010 by Duane Daman

[Duane Daman]

Do you say that every single one of the Apollo astronauts who claimed they walked on / orbited the Moonpeople is a xxxx?

Very simple question. Yes or no is sufficient. Thank you.

Yes.

Well, no, it was an image. Here is my post.

There's no image in that second post .. It's text that looks to be cut off.

Please make your final statements in regard to this subject, then we'll leave it.

My final statement is the same as my original one .. No Apollo astronaut has ever willingly sat down to conduct face to face interviews with any of the conspiracy researchers.. Instead they run away and refuse to answer any questions pertaining to the hoax .. That type of behavior usually indicates guilt.

You didn't allow for an aging person making a minor error about an event that happened 40 years ago.

I highly doubt that Gene Cernan would have forgotton how he landed the LM on the Moon during his alleged "greatest achievenment for all mankind."

[Evan Burton]

Do you say that every single one of the Apollo astronauts who claimed they walked on / orbited the Moonpeople is a xxxx?

Very simple question. Yes or no is sufficient. Thank you.

Yes.

Thank you.

[Evan Burton]

There's no image in that second post .. It's text that looks to be cut off.

Look at the file extension. It's an image. The image may be of text, but it's an image. I gave a link to the full post, so that anyone can read the post in full.

I highly doubt that Gene Cernan would have forgotton how he landed the LM on the Moon during his alleged "greatest achievenment for all mankind."

I was referring to his recall of the Apollo 11 mission, not his own. In fact, he had just come off the Apollo 10 mission, and went straight into training as backup commander for Apollo 13 (Apollo 14 after the crew swap). That was in response to your claim that he contradicts details about the Apollo 11 mission:

In this final segment of his documentary, Apollo 17 astronaut Gene Cernan completely contradicts the Apollo 11 story of how Neil Armstrong shut off the descent engine AFTER the LM landed.

Cernan probably thought that that is what Armstrong did, because it was what was supposed to happen and what he did on his own mission. As I have shown in a previous post, Armstrong didn't do so.

Once again you are anomaly hunting, and arguing from ignorance.

[Duane Daman]

Once again you are anomaly hunting, and arguing from ignorance.

Those are very "clever" put downs, which are completely predictable coming from someone whose debating style usually includes several of 'The 25 Rules of Disinformation'.. It also shows that your arguments have run out of steam.. So of course the wisest thing for you to do now, is to use this sort of ad hominem distraction tactic.

[Duane Daman]

I watched a very interesting TV program last night called 'Fact or Faked - Paranormal Files.'

For those who haven't seen this program, the premise is this .. A team of skeptical researchers are sent various different footage of unexplained, or alleged paranormal events.. They watch about five different videos and then decide which two look the most interesting to investigate.. The type of footage usually sent to the team are of alleged ghosts, UFOs, Bigfoot, etc. .. Their mission, being skeptics, is to debunk the "paranormal" or unexplained footage by duplicating the anomalies seen in the various videos... Once in awile, after trying everything possible to duplicate and debunk certain footage, they are completley stumped and have to admit that the footage is paranormal, or at least unexplainable .. This occurs very rarely though, as they are so professional in what they do, that they usually are able to figure out how the footage was faked.

What really caught my attention last night, were the previews showing that one of the team's investigations was going to be about some of the Apollo footage, that was allegedly taken on the Moon.

Back in 2001 The Fox TV Network had the audacity to air a program called 'Conspiracy Theory: Did we Land on the Moon?'.. After that program aired, Fox was bombarded with the type of hatemongering ridicule that almost ended up with them losing their license .. Apparently the people who ardently defend Project Apollo were completely outraged by the evidence that was presented and particularly outraged that this evidence was able to persuade many people into believing that Apollo was a hoax .. People who before watching that program, had never even given the alleged Moon landings a second thought.

So remembering what type of circus occured after the Fox program aired, I knew that no other network was going to claim that Apollo was faked.. but I also knew that this very professional, skeptical investigative team would have no problem duplicating the obviously faked Apollo footage.. So I was intrigued to see what the outcome would be.

The official Apollo footage investigated by the team were from three different missions.

1) The Apollo 15 Dave Scott hammer and feather drop.

2) The Apollo 16 John Young "jump salute".

3) The Apollo 16 Charlie Duke getting up after taking a tumble.

After two of the team members suited up in official Apollo spacesuits, they very easily duplicated the Apollo 15 hammer and feather drop, by using a hollow hammer and a feather with a titanium rod in the middle of it.. It took the team no time at all to figure out how that trick was done.. They didn't go the trouble of using the same slow motion photography that NASA did when faking that particular Apollo 15 footage, but nevertheless, they duplicated the drop that was allegedly done on the Moon, exactly .. The hammer and the feather both hit the floor of their little moonset at exaclty the same time, proving that no 1/6 g vacuum was necessary to pull of the drop trick.. Just some clever props.

For their second experiment, the team used some type of spring attachment that was strapped to their moonboots .. but they couldn't achieve the same jump height or floating look that John Young achieved, so they scraped the springs in exchange for a wire rig.. Using a simple fly system wire, one of the team members easily duplicated the John Young "jump salute" exactly.. He was able to obtain the exact same height and floating look that is seen in the Apollo 15 footage, just by being suspended on a wire.

For their final experiment, one of the team kept the fly wire on and exactly duplicated Charlie Duke being helped up by Young.. In the official Apollo footge it looks as though Duke was being pulled up from behind by a wire support .. The team proved that was the case.

So now the team had a dilemma .. They had just proven beyond any doubt that the Apollo footage in question was faked using trick props and wire supports, yet they wouldn't dare admit that on national television, for fear of the same repercussions that happened to the Fox Network.

Everytime this team proves something is faked or hoaxed, they say.. Debunked!.. Ah, but not so with the Apollo Hoax evidence .. Though the team had to admit that they duplicated the Apollo footage in question exactly, thereby debunking it as being real, they each took turns claiming that in spite of the outcome of their experiments, they all still believe that Apollo astronauts walked on the Moon.

Of course they do! .. If they went with their evidence of fakery, and claimed any differently, they might just get their TV program jerked off the air!.. Or at the very least, be ridiculed to the extent that the Fox Network was, when they dared to air 'Conspiracy Theory: Did we Land on the Moon?'

So the cover up of the biggest conspiracy in the history of mankind continues.. Well, at least it does for those who aren't intelligent enough to read between the lines, anyway.

*edited for typos

Edited December 3, 2010 by Duane Daman

[Evan Burton]

Once again you are anomaly hunting, and arguing from ignorance.

Those are very "clever" put downs, which are completely predictable coming from someone whose debating style usually includes several of 'The 25 Rules of Disinformation'.. It also shows that your arguments have run out of steam.. So of course the wisest thing for you to do now, is to use this sort of ad hominem distraction tactic.

I don't think you know what they mean.

You are anomaly hunting because you are searching the records, then when you find something that does not make sense to you (the anomaly), it must indicate something is wrong. The argument from ignorance says that you arrive at a particular conclusion without a necessarily logical course, that because something is not proven wrong then it must be right.

For example, you bring up Gene Cernan and his comments regarding the Apollo 11 landing. He implies that Apollo 11 also shut down the DPS above the surface on the Moon when the contact light illuminated, however we know that Armstrong didn't shut down the DPS engine until just before touchdown.

The anomaly hunting is that you highlight this, and the argument from ignorance is that you say that Cernan must be lying and is therefore proof of faked Apollo landings. You do not consider or dismiss that he was not involved in Apollo 11 and in fact was training as backup for Apollo 13/14, that he may have referred simply to what was SOP and not knowing exactly what happened during the Apollo 11 touchdown, nor do you allow for a simple memory error from a man who is in his mid-70s.

Far from distracting, I am pointing out exactly why your assertions are flawed. And pointing out your errors is not an ad hominem attack.

[Evan Burton]

The last time I e-mailed that web site owner, he told me that his entire data base had been destroyed, so even if it does return to the internet, all of the previous information is gone.

Well, they are wrong. Plenty of it is still available via the internet archive. For instance here is your first post on the "We didn't go to the Moon?" thread on WOS in March 2006.

[Duane Daman]

I don't think you know what they mean.

It's not too difficult to understand what anomaly hunting and arguing from ignorance means.. The articles you linked were very clear in their meaning.

I think a lot of our disagreements have to do with an individual's perception of certain subjects.. You see Apollo as an historical fact, where as I see it as a monumental conspiracy and cover up.

You produce the evidence you believe supports your opinion, while I produce evidence that supports mine .. Which means that you will always attempt to explain away every anomaly in the official Apollo record, where as I perceive the same anomaly as being proof of fakery.

This discussion is a good example of how you've come to Gene Cernan's rescue, by explaining away his error of claiming that the Apollo 11 and Apollo 17 LM landings were identical, when they weren't.

You're right in one respect though.. I was mistaken in saying that Cernan didn't remember how he allegedly landed the Apollo 17 LM.. What he didn't remember was how Armstrong allegedly landed his LM during Apollo 11.

What amazes me the most about Cernan's "mistake" though, is the fact that an "apollogist" like you, and a "conspiracy theorist" like me, knows more about the Apollo Program than the men who suppossedly flew to the Moon during that program.

Perhaps "lie" was too strong of a word to use .. I probably should have used the word "confused", or "forgetful" or some other gentler term for Cernan not knowing the Apollo 11 story of how the first man on the Moon shut the LM engine off AFTER he landed, instead of claiming to SHUT THE ENGINE OFF AND THEN FREEFALL FOR SEVERAL FEET, like Cernan did.

I find the fact that Cernan doesn't know the famous Apollo 11 story, very strange.. I also find it strange that he took the chance of freefalling the last several feet to the lunar surface, dropping like a rock, instead of gently guiding the LM down onto the rock strewn, crater covered, dust filled, uneven lunar surface.

In my opinion, the Apollo 17 story of how the LM allegedly did a freefall to the lunar surface, is just a cover for the fact that none of the Apollo photographs show any evidence of a blast crater, or even dust or little pebbles being disturbed, beneath the LM descent engine.

[Duane Daman]

The last time I e-mailed that web site owner, he told me that his entire data base had been destroyed, so even if it does return to the internet, all of the previous information is gone.

Well, they are wrong. Plenty of it is still available via the internet archive. For instance here is your first post on the "We didn't go to the Moon?" thread on WOS in March 2006.

I'm glad to see that not all of the data was lost .. Though it looks like only some of the information was recovered.. I doubt the forum will ever return as it once was.