A Recurring Thought Of Mine

[David Josephs]

Working on a response Thomas, to your no-response response....

You still provide no reference, no example, no link to support any of your opinions.

One simple example of Purvis logic:

on the one hand:

(note: of course there also exists absolutely no factual proof that it is the weapon which was utilized to shoot JFK with either)

on the other - and earlier in this same thread:

All that can be stated as fact is that JFK was assassinated by a 6.5mm Model 91/38 Short Rifle, which weapon was found on the sixth floor of the TSDB.

Which is it Thomas?

And you are saying THAT rifle was fired on THAT day. Prove it.

Thanks

[Martha Moyer]

HI MARK YES FOLLOWING ALONG, AGREED IT HAD TO BE A FOREIGN MADE WEAPON, HAD THERE BEEN A CHEAP RUSSIAN RIFLE AVAILABLE THAT MAY HAVE BEEN CHOSEN IN THIS CASE I THINK ANYTHING FOREIGN SOUNDING WOULD FILL THE BILL AT THE TIME AS HIS HISTORY WITH GOING TO RUSSIA AND OF COURSE TRYING TO MANIPULATE TO GET THE THOUGHTS OUT THERE TO BLAME CASTRO AND OR THE RUSSIANS RIGHT OFF THE BAT POINTING THE FINGER AT ANYONE ELSE, WAS THE NAME OF THE GAME I BELIEVE, AND INCLUDING THE THREAT OF WAR THEY USED FROM THE W/H TO BEND THOSE THAT WERE WANTED ON THE COMMISSON, AND THE MEDIA AS WELL, TO SAVE THE MILLIONS OF DEATHS IF IT LED TO SUCH AND THERE WAS WAR, WITH RUSSIA......AND SO ON...HE HAD TO BE A LONER..WITH A FOREIGN HISTORY LINK

THOUGHT ALBA'S GARAGE IN N.O WHERE HE SPENT TIME LOOKING AT THE SPORTS MAGAZINES CONTAINING THE RIFLE ADS, WAS FOR THE CIA AND FBI,VEHICLES, JUST WONDERING IF ANY OF THEM ON OCASSION JUST HAPPENED TO JOIN IN A CONVERSATION ABOUT RIFLES AND RECOMMENDED A M/C AFTER ALL, THEY WOULD KNOW WEAPONS....WOULDN'T THEY ?HE MIGHT THINK , AS THEY WERE IN THE CIA OR FBI, AND THE WEED WAS PLANTED...?? IF ONE BELIEVES HE ORDERED AND BOUGHT THE RIFLE THAT IS ...THANKS TAKE CARE B. PLEASE EXCUSE THE CAPS THAT TIME OF MARNIN..THANKS..

Hi Bernice

Oswald/Hidell had ordered the rifle months prior to the Alba magazine "browsing" done by Oswald. What is interesting - seven magazines were removed from the Alba garage by FBI on November 23, 1963 and forwarded to FBI Laboratory. The Lab was requested to compare the portion of American Rifleman, June, 1963, page 59, where an order blank had been torn from the advertisement of Klein's. Following the examination, the FBI reported one latent fingerprint had been developed on page 37 - right thumb print of Lee Harvey Oswald. Nothing was mentioned about the torn-out portion which would have contained the order coupon. On November 23, DPD officrs: Rose, Moore, Stovall, and Adamcik, searched the Paine home. There were 47 personal photos found (including 2 photos of Lee holding the rifle, holding papers and wearing a sidearm). Also found in the search "Two magazine ads of "Klein's Sporting Goods" . . ." (CD7) Paul Hoch, noted researcher, discovered one of the ads found in the Paine garage matched exactly the torn out portion from the Alba garage magazine. He turned the information over to the Nat'l Archives.

Why coupons without the advertisements? Was Lee's memory so good that he could recall the details of something he wanted to order later on? He could have obtained the same magazines at any library in Dallas.

Early on I wrote an article on the 6.5 Italian Carbine. During the course of my researching testimonies, DPD statements, etc., I ran across Klein's vice-president William J. Waldman's WC testimony.(3 H 366-369) Mr. Waldman was never asked nor did he mention the word "36" for the rifle. He did talk briefly about how the Department Ordering Number was used by the company to identify month and magazine. He went on to identify the ordering coupon rec'd from Oswald/Hidell as Dept. 358, American Rifleman, Feb. 1963.(21 H 704) However, there is no picture of the ad in Waldman's exhibits. As a matter of fact there is no picture of this particular advertisement anywhere in the 26 volumes and certainly no mention of a 36" rifle. One will find a Klein advertisement in Postal Inspector Harry Holmes exhibits(22 H 174)advertising a 40" Italian rifle - wrong "dept number". (Researcher Gary Nivaggi prepared a soft bound book where he had compiled and photo-copied "every Klein's Sporting Goods ad" for 1958-1964.) The Holmes advertisement coupon was Dept. 486. And thanks to Gary - this was the November, 1963 issue of Field and Stream. Mr. Holmes verified this in his testimony when he told the WC that he had sent his secretary out on Saturday morning to check on outdoor magazines, thinking he might ".... locate this gun to identify it, and I did". (7 H 294) What I could not understand was why Holme's advertisement was exhibited and not the American Rifleman ad. This could have all been cleared up if Waldman had been asked about a "36" rifle being ordered. He maybe could have explained these were re-conditioned junk rifles and they could have been any length or any variety of excuses. He just was not asked! Surely the FBI would have seen the AR advertisement.

The best Klein advertisement I found was the one in "First Day Evidence" - a book about former Dallas Police Crime Lab detective R. W. "Rusty" Livingston who made duplicates of the DPD evidence and squirreled them away for several years. One problem - while making a duplicate of full page advertisement found at the Paine home he failed to notice the name of the magazine at the bottom of the page "Guns and Ammo" Dept. 427. Somebody had circled at 40" Italian rifle AND a .38 Special Smith and Wesson Revolver. (and we know that came from Seaport Traders).

I had the opportunity to ask FBI Special Agent Robert Gemberling about a 36" Italian rifle. He told me that I was mistaken. I didn't argue - no point, the man was quite adamant.

Sloppy police investigation? cover-up? - who knows.

If Lee had stood trial - I doubt very seriously if the rifle would have been introduced into evidence due to a break in the chain of evidence.

Martha

[Bernice Moore]

:rolleyes:THANKS MARTY GOOD TO SEE YOU POSTING... I believe your article link is posted within this ongoing thread,or was, i think personally much of the evidence would not have been able to have been presented as with the rifle the break in chain was evident,even with the magic zigzagger bullet 399 was so, but he was destined i believe not to be allowed a trial, as orders coming from the w/h stating to shut down any investigation, you've got your man, i posted i think the ad from kleins in this thread also, though i may have deleted it from, on doing some housekeeping in attachments, i will have a look....i agree the hidell oswald ordered the rifle if according to the research by john armstrong lho never did so, been some time since i was into the rifle end, i recall tham all doing so with a deep resolve at rich's some time back,:rolleyes:at the time it was very educational...thankyou for your information you are as always a fountain, i hope you and yours are all keeping well, been very good to hear from you, carry on and take good care and i shall endeavour to have a reread and try to stimulate the grey cells one more time...thank you... best b.... ps there was mention today in the decision to assassinate thread about coupons found at the Paines.listed in the evidence taken by the fbi..from the dpd..

Edited October 20, 2010 by Bernice Moore

[Bernice Moore]

i believe this is one of the ads marty...b

Edited October 20, 2010 by Bernice Moore

[David S. Brownlee]

Nothing against anybody's ideas about the shooter and the other stuff....personally, I think it was a .240 Weatherby that did the deed. It was the flattest shooting gun at the time (3300 muzzle velocity on a 100 grain bullet).

Edited October 20, 2010 by David S. Brownlee

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Working on a response Thomas, to your no-response response....

You still provide no reference, no example, no link to support any of your opinions.

One simple example of Purvis logic:

on the one hand:

(note: of course there also exists absolutely no factual proof that it is the weapon which was utilized to shoot JFK with either)

on the other - and earlier in this same thread:

All that can be stated as fact is that JFK was assassinated by a 6.5mm Model 91/38 Short Rifle, which weapon was found on the sixth floor of the TSDB.

Which is it Thomas?

And you are saying THAT rifle was fired on THAT day. Prove it.

Thanks

"It is impossible to win in argument with an ignorant man"

(William G. McAdoo)

http://www.quotationspage.com/quote/23566.html

[Thomas H. Purvis]

HI MARK YES FOLLOWING ALONG, AGREED IT HAD TO BE A FOREIGN MADE WEAPON, HAD THERE BEEN A CHEAP RUSSIAN RIFLE AVAILABLE THAT MAY HAVE BEEN CHOSEN IN THIS CASE I THINK ANYTHING FOREIGN SOUNDING WOULD FILL THE BILL AT THE TIME AS HIS HISTORY WITH GOING TO RUSSIA AND OF COURSE TRYING TO MANIPULATE TO GET THE THOUGHTS OUT THERE TO BLAME CASTRO AND OR THE RUSSIANS RIGHT OFF THE BAT POINTING THE FINGER AT ANYONE ELSE, WAS THE NAME OF THE GAME I BELIEVE, AND INCLUDING THE THREAT OF WAR THEY USED FROM THE W/H TO BEND THOSE THAT WERE WANTED ON THE COMMISSON, AND THE MEDIA AS WELL, TO SAVE THE MILLIONS OF DEATHS IF IT LED TO SUCH AND THERE WAS WAR, WITH RUSSIA......AND SO ON...HE HAD TO BE A LONER..WITH A FOREIGN HISTORY LINK

THOUGHT ALBA'S GARAGE IN N.O WHERE HE SPENT TIME LOOKING AT THE SPORTS MAGAZINES CONTAINING THE RIFLE ADS, WAS FOR THE CIA AND FBI,VEHICLES, JUST WONDERING IF ANY OF THEM ON OCASSION JUST HAPPENED TO JOIN IN A CONVERSATION ABOUT RIFLES AND RECOMMENDED A M/C AFTER ALL, THEY WOULD KNOW WEAPONS....WOULDN'T THEY ?HE MIGHT THINK , AS THEY WERE IN THE CIA OR FBI, AND THE WEED WAS PLANTED...?? IF ONE BELIEVES HE ORDERED AND BOUGHT THE RIFLE THAT IS ...THANKS TAKE CARE B. PLEASE EXCUSE THE CAPS THAT TIME OF MARNIN..THANKS..

Hi Bernice

Oswald/Hidell had ordered the rifle months prior to the Alba magazine "browsing" done by Oswald. What is interesting - seven magazines were removed from the Alba garage by FBI on November 23, 1963 and forwarded to FBI Laboratory. The Lab was requested to compare the portion of American Rifleman, June, 1963, page 59, where an order blank had been torn from the advertisement of Klein's. Following the examination, the FBI reported one latent fingerprint had been developed on page 37 - right thumb print of Lee Harvey Oswald. Nothing was mentioned about the torn-out portion which would have contained the order coupon. On November 23, DPD officrs: Rose, Moore, Stovall, and Adamcik, searched the Paine home. There were 47 personal photos found (including 2 photos of Lee holding the rifle, holding papers and wearing a sidearm). Also found in the search "Two magazine ads of "Klein's Sporting Goods" . . ." (CD7) Paul Hoch, noted researcher, discovered one of the ads found in the Paine garage matched exactly the torn out portion from the Alba garage magazine. He turned the information over to the Nat'l Archives.

Why coupons without the advertisements? Was Lee's memory so good that he could recall the details of something he wanted to order later on? He could have obtained the same magazines at any library in Dallas.

Early on I wrote an article on the 6.5 Italian Carbine. During the course of my researching testimonies, DPD statements, etc., I ran across Klein's vice-president William J. Waldman's WC testimony.(3 H 366-369) Mr. Waldman was never asked nor did he mention the word "36" for the rifle. He did talk briefly about how the Department Ordering Number was used by the company to identify month and magazine. He went on to identify the ordering coupon rec'd from Oswald/Hidell as Dept. 358, American Rifleman, Feb. 1963.(21 H 704) However, there is no picture of the ad in Waldman's exhibits. As a matter of fact there is no picture of this particular advertisement anywhere in the 26 volumes and certainly no mention of a 36" rifle. One will find a Klein advertisement in Postal Inspector Harry Holmes exhibits(22 H 174)advertising a 40" Italian rifle - wrong "dept number". (Researcher Gary Nivaggi prepared a soft bound book where he had compiled and photo-copied "every Klein's Sporting Goods ad" for 1958-1964.) The Holmes advertisement coupon was Dept. 486. And thanks to Gary - this was the November, 1963 issue of Field and Stream. Mr. Holmes verified this in his testimony when he told the WC that he had sent his secretary out on Saturday morning to check on outdoor magazines, thinking he might ".... locate this gun to identify it, and I did". (7 H 294) What I could not understand was why Holme's advertisement was exhibited and not the American Rifleman ad. This could have all been cleared up if Waldman had been asked about a "36" rifle being ordered. He maybe could have explained these were re-conditioned junk rifles and they could have been any length or any variety of excuses. He just was not asked! Surely the FBI would have seen the AR advertisement.

The best Klein advertisement I found was the one in "First Day Evidence" - a book about former Dallas Police Crime Lab detective R. W. "Rusty" Livingston who made duplicates of the DPD evidence and squirreled them away for several years. One problem - while making a duplicate of full page advertisement found at the Paine home he failed to notice the name of the magazine at the bottom of the page "Guns and Ammo" Dept. 427. Somebody had circled at 40" Italian rifle AND a .38 Special Smith and Wesson Revolver. (and we know that came from Seaport Traders).

I had the opportunity to ask FBI Special Agent Robert Gemberling about a 36" Italian rifle. He told me that I was mistaken. I didn't argue - no point, the man was quite adamant.

Sloppy police investigation? cover-up? - who knows.

If Lee had stood trial - I doubt very seriously if the rifle would have been introduced into evidence due to a break in the chain of evidence.

Martha

Martha;

An excellent accounting of many of the problems associated with the purportedly "ordering" of the 40-inch Model 91/38 Short Rifle which was utilized in the assassination.

When dealing with "Alba", please take the following into consideration:

1. LHO was, (quite obviously by design) intentionally leaving many false trails throughout the "forest".

As I have indicated elswhere, a squirrel in the forest NEVER goes directly to the tree in which he has a nest, as it would lead a predator directly to his/its home.

The squirrell will run through the forest jumping onto trees, running around to the opposite side, and then jumping off, only to leave a "false trail".

He will do this many times prior to actually climbing a tree which has access to the tree in which his nest is constructed.

And, only the best of squirrel dogs can wade through the "false trails" left throughout the forest and find the last tree which the squirrel actually climbed.

The "actions" of LHO can be best understood when one applies the "false trail" game which he was playing.

2. Adrian Alba was a member of the "MINUTEMEN", and was also apparantly involved in their training and arming them.

By his association to Alba, LHO left an excellent false trail which has caused many to become lost.

This is to include his "intentionally" hanging out/association at the garage; intentionally attracting the attention of FBI agents who parked cars at the garage; intentionally getting Alba to assist him in construction of the leather sling/strap which was on the recovered Carcano rifle; intentionally engaging Alba in conversations relative to rifle capabilities; intentionally attempting to purchase/acquire one of Alba's weapons; and of course removal of the Klein's Sporting Goods Ad's from Alba's stock of magazines.

Which, in itself was an undoubtedly absolute "Direct Ploy" which would ultimately send the FBI right back to Alba and his magazines.

So, in order to understand much of LHO and his motives, one must understand exactly how and why he went to the efforts which he did in order to send the squirrel dogs (FBI) chasing up the wrong tree.

Tom

P.S. Only those few who have actually attempted to "unravel" the information relative to the 36-inch/40-inch discrepancy are likely to grasp all of your post.

[David Josephs]

Working on a response Thomas, to your no-response response....

You still provide no reference, no example, no link to support any of your opinions.

One simple example of Purvis logic:

on the one hand:

(note: of course there also exists absolutely no factual proof that it is the weapon which was utilized to shoot JFK with either)

on the other - and earlier in this same thread:

All that can be stated as fact is that JFK was assassinated by a 6.5mm Model 91/38 Short Rifle, which weapon was found on the sixth floor of the TSDB.

Which is it Thomas?

And you are saying THAT rifle was fired on THAT day. Prove it.

Thanks

"It is impossible to win in argument with an ignorant man"

(William G. McAdoo)

http://www.quotationspage.com/quote/23566.html

Very poetic Mr Purvis. I for one am not arguing with anyone.

Simply asking that you explain how you can take both sides of an issue in the same thread and expect to be taken seriously.

And we all wonder why you keep avoiding the simple question arising from your conclusions

How do you prove THAT rifle was fired THAT day?

Since you can't by any stretch of the imagination come up with a way to prove it, your conclusions are erroneous at best.

The transparency of your non-answer responses is amusing as well. If you can't answer, ignore.

"You ain't gonna learn, what you don't want to know" - Robert Hunter

My appreciation for having provided a prime example as to exactly how little you know in regards to the evidence:

1. The only reason the "Magic Bullet" CE399 is still with us is becasue it had nothing at all to do with the injuries sustained on 11/22/63 as is with most all the other "evidence".

Answer: Since CE399 has never disappeared, it has never exibited any qualities of "Magic".

In fact, it is merely a plain ole everyday WCC Carcano bullet which is responsible for a given set of

wounds.

(Hint/again: Magic things are good at the ole disappearing act)

In this case Thomas "Magic" means it never did what you are saying it did... NOT that it disappeared. CE399 is THAT bullet, yet you have no idea where that bullet had been. The "MAGIC" is for where you say the bullet went and what you say it did... off a tree limb, tumbling and into JFK's body exactly perpendicular.... there is no evidence whatsoever of tree, blood, tissue or fabric on that piece of "evidence". So you basically have no proof whatsoever that bullet did any of those things.

beyond the 4mmx7mm measurement, what leads you to your conclusions beyond your Prudent Beliefs

2. Thomas talks of reliability yet forgets the age of the MC, the age of the ammo, and the condition of both when found.

Answer: Irrelevant as to the age of the Carcano recovered from the sixth floor, it still "bench-tested" to be as accurate as were the current (1960's) issue U.S. M-14 rifle which also still happens to be the basis for most of the standard issue sniper rifles.

As regards the ammunition, it was (and still is) superior quality military grade/standard ammunition in which virtually 100 out of 100 rounds will fire with excellent results.

CBS conducted a firing test in 1967 at the H. P. White Ballistics Laboratory located in Street, Maryland. For the test 11 marksmen from diverse backgrounds were invited to participate: 3 Maryland State Troopers, 1 weapons engineer, 1 sporting goods dealer, 1 sportsman, 1 ballistics technician, 1 ex-paratrooper, and 3 H. P. White employees. CBS provided several Carcano rifles for the test. The MC rifle WC-139 was not used in this test. The targets were color coded orange for head/shoulder silhouette and blue for a near miss. The results of the CBS test were as follows: 7 of 11 shooters were able to fire three rounds under 5.6 seconds (64%). Of those 7 shooters, 6 hit the orange target once (86%), and 5 hit the orange target twice (71%). Out of 60 rounds fired, 25 hit the orange (42%), 21 hit the blue portion of the target (35%), and there were 14 misses on the target (23%).

One volunteer was unable to operate his rifle effectively so the following statistics are based on the 10 remaining shooters. The average time of all 10 was 5.64 seconds. The mode was 5.55 seconds and the mean was 5.70 seconds. The average for the top five shooters was 5.12 seconds, and for the bottom five shooters 6.16 seconds. There was a high occurrence of jamming during the test. On average the rifles jammed after 6 rounds. The most rounds fired without jamming were 14, 11, 10 in a row. The least was 0 (back to back).

So I guess we both can quote tests that show the rifle and ammo to be either 100% reliable, like yours, or jamming as much as on back-to-back shots. So yes Thomas, if one was to want to kill the president, using WWII surplus stock is always a great idea.

3. "He further neglects to address how Oswald even came into possession of the rifle and how the backyard photo shows a different rifle entirely."

Answer: LHO is holding some version of the Carcano "short rifle". Since I have completely lost my "crystal ball", there exists absolutely no means by which I can define as to whether it is a 6.5mm version (Model 91/38) or whether it is is a Model 38 (7.35mm).

As to where he obtained the weapon, one would most assuredly have to know firstly exactly what caliber it actually is.

Nevertheless, there exists absolutely ZERO factual proof that it is not/was not the weapon which was recovered on the sixth floor of the TSDB, being the 6.5mm version which was (solely) utilized in the assassination of JFK.

(note: of course there also exists absolutely no factual proof that it is the weapon which was utilized to shoot JFK with either)

You are correct... there is indeed no means by which you can identify THAT rifle as the one is the Backyard photos.

You are incorrect – fact is, the recovered rifle has a side mounted front shoulder strap ring while the one in the backyard has a bottom mounted ring (just like the ad from which it was purchased) along with a mountain of previously presented evidence that shows the rifle shipped was not the one found in the TSBD. Regardless, the entire case again LHO falls apart if the rifles are not the same... then the rifle found on the 6th floor was NEVER in Oswald’s possession.

Please read Moyer's excellent paper on the subject - excellent piece.

And finally... now you post:

(note: of course there also exists absolutely no factual proof that it is the weapon which was utilized to shoot JFK with either)

you posted originally, in this thread:

All that can be stated as fact is that JFK was assassinated by a 6.5mm Model 91/38 Short Rifle, which weapon was found on the sixth floor of the TSDB.

Which is it Thomas?

4. "You've got a bullet entering the body, leaving lead fragments yet emerging without a trace of evidence it was in contact with anyone. Nothing on that bullet suggests it ever came close to JFK."

Answer: Had you taken the time and effort to research CE399, then you quite possibly would come to realize exactly how completely inaccurate and non-factual the entirity of that statement is.

Yes I have Thomas and since you are the expert, why not post a reason beyond the chain of events that takes a bullet hitting a limb, tumbling thru the air and entering JFK not only exactly perpendicular based on your entry/bullet measurements, but completely stopped tumbling, did not enlarge the entry hole as a result of this tumbling, and just stops less than a pinkie length in his back after entering at a 45-60 degrees, to then disappear from Xrays and turn up – where again? And completely devoid of anything that suggests it came into contact with anyone.

These are questions you needed to answer not me Thomas. YOU say it did enter JFK.

Prove it.

5. FMJ bullets do NOT leave dust particles

Answer: Incorrect again!

It is unknown within the realm of ballistics for an "armor piercing" round to severely fragment upon contact with any portion of the human anatomy.

However, FMJ rounds commonly do so, leaving behind tremendous amounts of their inner lead core, after impact bone.

Last time I checked, they did not refer to it as "skull bone" for any reason other than it being just that!---BONE!

No argument here Thomas... but “fragments” are not the same as “dust particles” and FMJ rounds are considered armor-piercing...

A full metal jacket (or FMJ) is a bullet consisting of a soft core (usually made of lead) encased in a shell of harder metal, such as gilding metal, cupronickel or less commonly a steel alloy. This shell can extend around all of the bullet, or often just the front and sides with the rear left as exposed lead. (A bullet that is completely enclosed by the shell is alternatively termed a total metal jacket round.) The jacket allows for higher muzzle velocities than bare lead without depositing significant amounts of metal in the bore. It also prevents damage to bores from steel or armor-piercing core materials.

6. High velocity FMJ bullets do not hit flesh and muscle and simply stop short

Answer: First off, for the record, the Carcano, at 2,000 to 2,200 fps does not quite qualify as "high velocity".

Although it is very close and falls within the upper range of the "medium" velocity weapons.

Lastly, you can rest assured that many, many, many bullets have begun their sojurn towards a target only to ultimately penetrate that target for a short distance as a result of having it's velocity interrupted in flight.

Velocity is classified as low (<1000 fps), medium (1000 to 2000 fps), and high (>2000 fps). (Wilson, 1977)

Bullet design is important in wounding potential. The Hague Convention of 1899 (and subsequently the Geneva Convention) forbade the use of expanding, deformable bullets in wartime. Therefore, military bullets have full metal jackets around the lead core. Of course, the treaty had less to do with compliance than the fact that modern military assault rifles fire projectiles at high velocity (>2000 fps) and the bullets need to be jacketed with copper, because the lead begins to melt from heat generated at speeds >2000 fps.

http://library.med.utah.edu/WebPath/TUTORIAL/GUNS/GUNBLST.html

The type of tissue affects wounding potential, as well as the depth of penetration. (Bartlett, 2003) Specific gravity (density) and elasticity are the major tissue factors. The higher the specific gravity, the greater the damage. The greater the elasticity, the less the damage. Thus, lung tissue of low density and high elasticity is damaged less than muscle with higher density but some elasticity. Liver, spleen, and brain have no elasticity and are easily injured, as is adipose tissue. Fluid-filled organs (bladder, heart, great vessels, bowel) can burst because of pressure waves generated. A bullet striking bone may cause fragmentation of bone and/or bullet, with numerous secondary missiles formed, each producing additional wounding. [Note: This does not say a bullet will turn to dust like particles... it says secondary missiles as I showed in the graphic about bullet fragmentation...

The speed at which a projectile must travel to penetrate skin is 163 fps and to break bone is 213 fps, both of which are quite low, so other factors are more important in producing damage. (Belkin, 1978)

Entrance wounds produced when silencers are present lead to muzzle imprints that are erythematous (In medicine, it is often used to describe skin redness caused by infection, massage, therapeutic application of ionizing radiation or ultrasound, allergies, sunburn, or by any of which that can increase blood flow as caused by the dilation of capillaries or irritation of surface capillaries.)rather than abraded and disproportionately large for the size of the wound. http://library.med.utah.edu/WebPath/TUTORIAL/GUNS/GUNINJ.html

Thomas - I've poured over the internet and have not encountered a single example where a FMJ 2000+fps bullet EVER stopped within 2 inches in plain tissue - no bone impacts. None. And if it did happen, it is so rare as to not even deserve mention on Gun/Ammo websties, or even researched based ballistics sites. In fact, most of the sites claim that a FMJ bullet hitting JFK as it did would yaw and rip out most of his neck and not stop even after hitting bone. Yet never, ever look like CE399 when done.

7. Tell you what - answer ONE QUESTION - please explain how you can prove THAT rifle was fired THAT day and by Oswald.

Answer: First off, since I was in Athens, Ohio working at the time of the assassination, I have no proof (other than what already exists) as to who assassinated JFK.

Merely that all evidence points to LHO as the most probable person.

Secondly, the bullets themselves tell a prudent person that they were fired from the assassination weapon.

We’ve already shown you how the bullets themselves can have come from any one of a whole box of bullets based on the tests you hang your hat upon.

And Luckily for us, someone’s PRUDENT BELIEFS doesn’t constitute evidence in a court of law or anywhere else for that matter. The fragments could have come from any number of bullet sources.

And more importantly, even if you could somehow tie these fragments to the rifle

that does not prove it was fired that day.

Finally, when one looks “merely at all the evidence” is becomes obvious to most thinking people that the evidence points to most anyone but the Oswald that Jack Ruby killed.

[Mark Knight]

I think Martha touched on something important, but nearly overlooked. On the ads from Kleins, when one specified a "Dept." on the order form, it not only showed Klein's what magazine/month the ad [which allowed them to gauge the effectiveness of their ads, as it relates to which magazines in which months' issues generated their orders], but it also allowed them to know which models of which rifles to ship...as the ads varied from month to month, magazine to magazine. AND...if Klein's was, as Gerry Hemming once hinted to me, CIA-connected, then the proper "Dept." number MIGHT have alerted them to ship certain rifle(s)..such as a Carcano "short rifle," with its accurate rifling in the barrel, vs. a Carcano "shortened" rifle, on which the most critical [progressive twist] rifling was cut off in the process of shortening the rifle.

[Martha Moyer]

Paul Hoch, noted researcher, discovered one of the ads found in the Paine garage matched exactly the torn out portion from the Alba garage magazine. He turned the information over to the Nat'l Archives.

Why coupons without the advertisements? Was Lee's memory so good that he could recall the details of something he wanted to order later on? He could have obtained the same magazines at any library in Dallas.

Martha, do you think this perfectly matching ad was planted?

*****Hi Jim - haven't seen you since the ASK days in Dallas; however, I do read your interesting posts with a great deal of interest. (Forgive me if I am not answering your questions in a proper setting. I am just learning how to post here.)

No - I really do not think the ad(s) were planted. I think Lee had the ads for another purpose I just don't know what that purpose was. Why keep those ads when there was absolutely nothing in his belongings to suggest he had ever had a gun in his possession. No bullets - no ammo box - no gun cleaning paraphernalia etc. I do know back then you could go into a gun/sporting good shop and bullets were sometimes in a barrel and you could buy 6, 7, or whatever you wanted or needed. We know he could have bought the ammo same time as the rifle - 108 rds with a free clip tossed in. I spent hours going through everything listed that belonged to Lee - heck, I couldn't even find the black pants and shirt he had on during his backyard photo shoot. Ditto his Marine corps all-weather coat (that Marina said he wore when he took his rifle out to practice. (Never could visualize how one could put a 40" rifle under a raincoat and try and get on a bus then try to sit down.) From what we know - Lee was as tight as new boot. Did he toss this stuff?

Mr. Waldman was never asked nor did he mention the word "36" for the rifle. He did talk briefly about how the Department Ordering Number was used by the company to identify month and magazine. He went on to identify the ordering coupon rec'd from Oswald/Hidell as Dept. 358, American Rifleman, Feb. 1963.(21 H 704) However, there is no picture of the ad in Waldman's exhibits. As a matter of fact there is no picture of this particular advertisement anywhere in the 26 volumes and certainly no mention of a 36" rifle.

Do you agree with John Armstrong that this was deliberate on Belin's part since he did not want to accent the difference between the two rifles, that is the one "ordered" and the one found in the TSBD?

***John is good - really good, but that is speculative. On the other hand, I can hardly believe the FBI would not check out the original AR magazine and if they failed to do that - I have to believe there is a little old lady school teacher in the heart of Indiana who is smarter than those dudes.

If Lee had stood trial - I doubt very seriously if the rifle would have been introduced into evidence due to a break in the chain of evidence.

I agree.

[Martha Moyer]

HI MARK YES FOLLOWING ALONG, AGREED IT HAD TO BE A FOREIGN MADE WEAPON, HAD THERE BEEN A CHEAP RUSSIAN RIFLE AVAILABLE THAT MAY HAVE BEEN CHOSEN IN THIS CASE I THINK ANYTHING FOREIGN SOUNDING WOULD FILL THE BILL AT THE TIME AS HIS HISTORY WITH GOING TO RUSSIA AND OF COURSE TRYING TO MANIPULATE TO GET THE THOUGHTS OUT THERE TO BLAME CASTRO AND OR THE RUSSIANS RIGHT OFF THE BAT POINTING THE FINGER AT ANYONE ELSE, WAS THE NAME OF THE GAME I BELIEVE, AND INCLUDING THE THREAT OF WAR THEY USED FROM THE W/H TO BEND THOSE THAT WERE WANTED ON THE COMMISSON, AND THE MEDIA AS WELL, TO SAVE THE MILLIONS OF DEATHS IF IT LED TO SUCH AND THERE WAS WAR, WITH RUSSIA......AND SO ON...HE HAD TO BE A LONER..WITH A FOREIGN HISTORY LINK

THOUGHT ALBA'S GARAGE IN N.O WHERE HE SPENT TIME LOOKING AT THE SPORTS MAGAZINES CONTAINING THE RIFLE ADS, WAS FOR THE CIA AND FBI,VEHICLES, JUST WONDERING IF ANY OF THEM ON OCASSION JUST HAPPENED TO JOIN IN A CONVERSATION ABOUT RIFLES AND RECOMMENDED A M/C AFTER ALL, THEY WOULD KNOW WEAPONS....WOULDN'T THEY ?HE MIGHT THINK , AS THEY WERE IN THE CIA OR FBI, AND THE WEED WAS PLANTED...?? IF ONE BELIEVES HE ORDERED AND BOUGHT THE RIFLE THAT IS ...THANKS TAKE CARE B. PLEASE EXCUSE THE CAPS THAT TIME OF MARNIN..THANKS..

Hi Bernice

Oswald/Hidell had ordered the rifle months prior to the Alba magazine "browsing" done by Oswald. What is interesting - seven magazines were removed from the Alba garage by FBI on November 23, 1963 and forwarded to FBI Laboratory. The Lab was requested to compare the portion of American Rifleman, June, 1963, page 59, where an order blank had been torn from the advertisement of Klein's. Following the examination, the FBI reported one latent fingerprint had been developed on page 37 - right thumb print of Lee Harvey Oswald. Nothing was mentioned about the torn-out portion which would have contained the order coupon. On November 23, DPD officrs: Rose, Moore, Stovall, and Adamcik, searched the Paine home. There were 47 personal photos found (including 2 photos of Lee holding the rifle, holding papers and wearing a sidearm). Also found in the search "Two magazine ads of "Klein's Sporting Goods" . . ." (CD7) Paul Hoch, noted researcher, discovered one of the ads found in the Paine garage matched exactly the torn out portion from the Alba garage magazine. He turned the information over to the Nat'l Archives.

Why coupons without the advertisements? Was Lee's memory so good that he could recall the details of something he wanted to order later on? He could have obtained the same magazines at any library in Dallas.

Early on I wrote an article on the 6.5 Italian Carbine. During the course of my researching testimonies, DPD statements, etc., I ran across Klein's vice-president William J. Waldman's WC testimony.(3 H 366-369) Mr. Waldman was never asked nor did he mention the word "36" for the rifle. He did talk briefly about how the Department Ordering Number was used by the company to identify month and magazine. He went on to identify the ordering coupon rec'd from Oswald/Hidell as Dept. 358, American Rifleman, Feb. 1963.(21 H 704) However, there is no picture of the ad in Waldman's exhibits. As a matter of fact there is no picture of this particular advertisement anywhere in the 26 volumes and certainly no mention of a 36" rifle. One will find a Klein advertisement in Postal Inspector Harry Holmes exhibits(22 H 174)advertising a 40" Italian rifle - wrong "dept number". (Researcher Gary Nivaggi prepared a soft bound book where he had compiled and photo-copied "every Klein's Sporting Goods ad" for 1958-1964.) The Holmes advertisement coupon was Dept. 486. And thanks to Gary - this was the November, 1963 issue of Field and Stream. Mr. Holmes verified this in his testimony when he told the WC that he had sent his secretary out on Saturday morning to check on outdoor magazines, thinking he might ".... locate this gun to identify it, and I did". (7 H 294) What I could not understand was why Holme's advertisement was exhibited and not the American Rifleman ad. This could have all been cleared up if Waldman had been asked about a "36" rifle being ordered. He maybe could have explained these were re-conditioned junk rifles and they could have been any length or any variety of excuses. He just was not asked! Surely the FBI would have seen the AR advertisement.

The best Klein advertisement I found was the one in "First Day Evidence" - a book about former Dallas Police Crime Lab detective R. W. "Rusty" Livingston who made duplicates of the DPD evidence and squirreled them away for several years. One problem - while making a duplicate of full page advertisement found at the Paine home he failed to notice the name of the magazine at the bottom of the page "Guns and Ammo" Dept. 427. Somebody had circled at 40" Italian rifle AND a .38 Special Smith and Wesson Revolver. (and we know that came from Seaport Traders).

I had the opportunity to ask FBI Special Agent Robert Gemberling about a 36" Italian rifle. He told me that I was mistaken. I didn't argue - no point, the man was quite adamant.

Sloppy police investigation? cover-up? - who knows.

If Lee had stood trial - I doubt very seriously if the rifle would have been introduced into evidence due to a break in the chain of evidence.

Martha

Martha;

An excellent accounting of many of the problems associated with the purportedly "ordering" of the 40-inch Model 91/38 Short Rifle which was utilized in the assassination.

When dealing with "Alba", please take the following into consideration:

1. LHO was, (quite obviously by design) intentionally leaving many false trails throughout the "forest".

As I have indicated elswhere, a squirrel in the forest NEVER goes directly to the tree in which he has a nest, as it would lead a predator directly to his/its home.

The squirrell will run through the forest jumping onto trees, running around to the opposite side, and then jumping off, only to leave a "false trail".

He will do this many times prior to actually climbing a tree which has access to the tree in which his nest is constructed.

And, only the best of squirrel dogs can wade through the "false trails" left throughout the forest and find the last tree which the squirrel actually climbed.

The "actions" of LHO can be best understood when one applies the "false trail" game which he was playing.

2. Adrian Alba was a member of the "MINUTEMEN", and was also apparantly involved in their training and arming them.

By his association to Alba, LHO left an excellent false trail which has caused many to become lost.

This is to include his "intentionally" hanging out/association at the garage; intentionally attracting the attention of FBI agents who parked cars at the garage; intentionally getting Alba to assist him in construction of the leather sling/strap which was on the recovered Carcano rifle; intentionally engaging Alba in conversations relative to rifle capabilities; intentionally attempting to purchase/acquire one of Alba's weapons; and of course removal of the Klein's Sporting Goods Ad's from Alba's stock of magazines.

Which, in itself was an undoubtedly absolute "Direct Ploy" which would ultimately send the FBI right back to Alba and his magazines.

So, in order to understand much of LHO and his motives, one must understand exactly how and why he went to the efforts which he did in order to send the squirrel dogs (FBI) chasing up the wrong tree.

Tom

P.S. Only those few who have actually attempted to "unravel" the information relative to the 36-inch/40-inch discrepancy are likely to grasp all of your post.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

"AND...if Klein's was, as Gerry Hemming once hinted to me, CIA-connected,"

As was long ago indicated, an extremely reliable "gun-source" long ago determined that the true owner of Klein's was in fact the PEPSI Corporation.

Which, happens to tell much about their organization and purpose.

"then the proper "Dept." number MIGHT have alerted them to ship certain rifle(s)..such as a Carcano "short rifle," with its accurate rifling in the barrel, vs. a Carcano "shortened" rifle, on which the most critical [progressive twist] rifling was cut off in the process of shortening the rifle."

Actually!

There had to be some form of "fail-safe" in this system in order to prevent the everyday "joe-blow" from ordering on the same "Dept#" order blank.

Actually, one commonly utilized some "secondary" verification such as a strange name on the order or as the "referecnce" name.

Hope that helps some.

Tom

P.S. In event that one were shot at with some of the old Italian issue Carcano ammo, and the bullet (and/or fragments) were recovered, then they just may be of the impression that they had been shot at with a "steel-jacketed" bullet.

The Italian ammo actually had a "cupro-nickel" jacket which gave the bullet a silver color similar to steel, yet avoided rusting. As a result of the nickel content, the jacket was also slightly magnetic, which further confused the uninformed.

(for those chasing steel-jacketed bullets in the General Walker (attempted) shooting).

P.P.S. The mail-man cometh

[Lawrence Schnapf]

On 9/22/2010 at 2:39 AM, Mark Knight said:

There have been stories that LHO was connected to Senator Thomas Dodd's committee investigations regarding mail order firearms...but I dont' think anything conclusive has been established from the evidence so far.

And Tom...you're absolutely right that Oswald may have actually been holding a Model 38 instead of a Model 91/38 in the backyard photos. Of course, if LHO had a Model 38 in 7.5 mm, there's no paper trail linking that gun to him. Likewise, there's no evidence that Oswald bought, stole, was given, or otherwise obtained any ammunition for a 7.35 mm rifle...same as there is no evidence that he obtained any 6.5mm ammo.

But obviously, SOMEBODY obtained some 6.5mm ammo, and at least one stripper clip.

Again, Tom, you've got me thinking...and that could be dangerous.

I'm not sure if the Dodd question has been adequately run down. The two gun shops LHO allegedly ordered his weapons from were under investigation from the Dodd committee. i was thinking of reviewing his papers at UCONN. do you know if anyone has done this?  

[Paul Brancato]

Lawrence - I don’t know how to directly link articles to threads here, but a little googling led me to an entry by Gil Jesus in the JFK conspiracy forum about this issue, and it’s full of interesting tidbits. Search Senator Thomas Dodd/ JFK Assassination Board and it should come up. 

[Gene Kelly]

Interestingly, the Klein's advert entered into evidence by the WC is for a Carcano of the right length but comes from the November 1963 issue of Field and Stream. This advert was offered to the WC by the ubiquitous Postal Inspector Harry Holmes. This might be as good a time as any to mention that Harry D. Holmes was more than just a Postal Inspector. In addition to his postal duties, Holmes was an FBI informant. He appeared to have an uncanny knack of being in crucial places at crucial times during the day of the assassination and on subsequent days. Odd though it may seem, he also took part in the interrogation of Oswald at the DPD.