The CE399 Planters

[Guest Duncan MacRae]

How did the CE399 planters manage to balistiacally modify the bullet, to balistically match it as being fired from Oswald's rifle?

[John Dolva]

Is it true that wrapping the bullet can give a rifling that makes it possible to say it came from a rifle it did not?

__________

By firing it after the fact?

[William Kelly]

Why was it imperative that the Warren Commission deny that Jack Ruby was at Parkland Hospital when the President's body was there even though two people who knew him said they saw him and talked with him, but they had to be discounted?

BK

[John Dolva]

How did the CE399 planters manage to balistiacally modify the bullet, to balistically match it as being fired from Oswald's rifle?

Who ever said they did?

CE399 is a bullet that was fired from "Oswald's" rifle at an unknown time prior to the assassination. Let's not forget that Oswald did not have that rifle in his possession at any time after he left new Orleans (if he ever did).

Yeah, that puts it better

[Jim Root]

Duncan

IF the conspirators were in fact inclined to plant CE399 at Parkland Hospital after the assassinaiton of JFK had taken place and IF this were a fundamental part of their plan that would insure, as it seems to have done, success in "getting awasy" with their plan to assassinate the President of the United States I could easily believe they could have found a myriad of ways to have matched the ballistics of the bullet either before or after the assassination as so many researchers seem to suggest.

The question that troubles me so much in this line of inquiry is how did the meticulous planners of this assassintion know that the bullet that they needed to plant would match a wound that would be inflicted to Connelly's thigh during the assassination that would create the explanation of where the bullet came from that had to be planted for the conspirators to "get awasy" with the assassination?

What is interesting for me to ponder is if the "magic bullet" had not been "planted" would we all be asking, "Were did this "magic bullet" disappear to? Would this line of inquiry continue with, "If we had this bullet that has "magically" disappeared then we could have checked the ballistics to prove if it was or was not fired from the weapon recovered from the sixth floor snipers nest!" Would there be those who would suggest that since that bullet had disappeared the conspirators must have planted someone at Parkland to insure that this bullet would never be found?

But my mind wonders. We have the "magic bullet" and we have the wound to Connellys thigh so lets just accept that it must have been planted because the ballistics did somehow match.

Jim Root

[John Dolva]

Is there a certain reason to think the bullet ever was in JFK or Connally?

[David Andrews]

Richard C. Nagell pegged CE399 as having been fired into water.

[William Kelly]

Richard C. Nagell pegged CE399 as having been fired into water.

I think that Tink Thompson concluded the same thing.

But I do like Duncan new question oriented approach, though I don't think he's getting the results he wanted.

BKelly

[David Von Pein]

1.) Three bullet shells found under TSBD window from where assassin was firing at JFK -- Linked to Oswald's rifle to the exclusion of all other weapons.

2.) CE567 & CE569 (the two bullet fragments found right inside the President's limousine) -- Linked to Oswald's rifle "to the exclusion".

3.) CE399 -- Bullet fired from Oswald's rifle "to the exclusion".

Since #1 and #2 exist in the JFK case (and there hasn't been a single conspiracy theorist who has ever proven that either #1 or #2 were "planted" or falsified in some manner), then the likelihood of #3 (CE399) being a "fake" or "planted" or "substituted" piece of evidence is substantially diminished.

IOW -- Why on Earth was there any NEED to fake CE399 when the #1 and #2 items on my list above existed as evidence in the JFK murder case also?

The CTers who continue to bitch and moan about the legitimacy of CE399 are living in a dream world. There has never ever been any solid proof that Commission Exhibit No. 399 is anything but what it was purported to be by both the Warren Commission and the HSCA -- and that is a bullet that was fired by Lee Harvey Oswald on 11/22/63, which was one of three bullets LHO fired from his own Carcano rifle at JFK's car on Elm Street.

WAS CE399 PLANTED? (PART 1)

Edited September 21, 2010 by David Von Pein

[Michael Hogan]

There has never ever been any solid proof that Commission Exhibit No. 399 is anything but what it was purported to be by both the Warren Commission and the HSCA -- and that is a bullet that was fired by Lee Harvey Oswald on 11/22/63, which was one of three bullets LHO fired from his own Carcano rifle at JFK's car on Elm Street.

There has never been any solid proof for any of the above.

[David Von Pein]

There has never been any solid proof for any of the above.

The mere fact that CE399 is a bullet that came out of the SAME WEAPON that produced CE567, CE569, and the three bullet shells found on the floor under the Sniper's Nest window is solid evidence that CE399, which WAS entered as OFFICIAL evidence in the JFK case whether any conspiracy theorist likes it or not, is also a valid piece of evidence in this case.

I guess Michael Hogan thinks it's very likely that the evil conspirators would have had a desire to want to start "planting" or "substituting" CE399 in order to frame Oswald, even though those plotters should have already known they had the three shells in the Sniper's Nest and CE567/569 to link to their prized patsy named Oswald.

Or are the 3 shells and the 2 limo fragments supposedly all "faked" evidence too, Michael?

And if the CTers want to start pretending that the 3 shells and CE567/569 ARE faked pieces of evidence, then my other question is still really just as valid as it is via the scenario which has the 3 shells and the limo fragments being legitimate evidence -- Why the need to fake the stretcher bullet too?

Or weren't the "fakers" of CE399 aware that OTHER evidence was going to show up to implicate their patsy (whether it be "faked" or legit evidence)?

Maybe the CTers ought to check up on how many plotters were supposedly manipulating the evidence on November 22, because it doesn't seem like the left hand knows what the right hand is doing.

Edited September 21, 2010 by David Von Pein

[David Andrews]

Why fake the stretcher bullet?

1) To tie one weapon exclusively to the shots.

2) Because it was planned to remove all bullets and identifiable fragments from the wounds before the official autopsy.

So, forget Ruby at Parkland - CE399 was likely dropped by a Secret Service agent.

Edited September 21, 2010 by David Andrews

[Michael Hogan]

There has never been any solid proof for any of the above.

The mere fact that CE399 is a bullet that came out of the SAME WEAPON that produced CE567, CE569, and the three bullet shells found on the floor under the Sniper's Nest window is solid evidence that CE399, which WAS entered as OFFICIAL evidence in the JFK case whether any conspiracy theorist likes it or not, is also a valid piece of evidence in this case.

I guess Michael Hogan thinks it's very likely that the evil conspirators would have had a desire to want to start "planting" or "substituting" CE399 in order to frame Oswald, even though those plotters should have already known they had the three shells in the Sniper's Nest and CE567/569 to link to their prized patsy named Oswald.

I've taken the liberty of italicizing certain terms. Solid evidence, OFFICIAL evidence, valid evidence are not the equivalent of solid proof.

[David Von Pein]

So, forget Ruby at Parkland - CE399 was likely dropped by a Secret Service agent.

You'd better go tell Jim DiEugenio that he's got things all wrong re CE399 then.

Because people like DiEugenio believe that there was no bullet planted at Parkland at all. Jimbo (and many others like him) think that a pointy-nosed bullet was found on Ronnie Fuller's stretcher at Parkland. (And what kind of idiot bullet-planter would want to frame OSWALD with a bullet that could never be tied to his gun?)

Therefore, that "pointy" bullet had no connection to the JFK/Connally case at all, per many CTers. It was a totally unrelated bullet. But people like Jimbo think that Hoover's FBI boys decided they wanted to "switch" the bullets, and so CE399 came into the mix.

I guess the thinking among the CTers is that the FBI never thought that the bullet might not have been connected to the Kennedy case at all, and they had to (at all costs) frame Oswald with as much evidence as humanly possible; so CE399 was placed into the record.

Of course, just exactly WHEN the evil FBI performed this switch-out of the bullets is not known and is never defined by the CTers. The FBI wasn't even in the possession of Oswald's rifle until around midnight on Nov. 22....and since DiEugenio thinks there were TWO separate bullets handed over to Robert Frazier of the FBI BEFORE midnight (at 7:30 and 8:50 PM EST), I assume that Jimbo assumes that one of those bullets was, indeed, CE399.

But that scenario I just described is totally impossible, since Rifle C2766 wasn't in the hands of the always-evil Federal Bureau of Investigation until 11:45 PM CST on November 22nd. And it took a few hours to fly the rifle back to Washington too. So, logically, this would mean that the very earliest the big bad FBI could have started planting bullets from Oswald's rifle into the official record would be about 3:00 or 4:00 AM EST on Sat., Nov. 23rd.

No worries, though. People like DiEugenio can always make up some kind of theory they think will bolster their claims of Government wrong-doing and evidence-planting.

Edited September 21, 2010 by David Von Pein

[David Von Pein]

Solid evidence, OFFICIAL evidence, valid evidence are not the equivalent of solid proof.

This shows what Michael Hogan's mindset is -- he's saying that not even "valid evidence" and "solid evidence" are good enough to provide "solid proof" of something in the JFK case.

A curious mindset indeed.