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Whereabouts of Mr. Hudson


David Josephs
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Bill –

How GA knows what he knows is quite the mystery to me.... He was either

1) there as he says he was, or

2) he saw it from another vantage point, saw the black kids hit the ground and a shot coming from the GK and related the story as if it were him or

3) he somehow hears the story while overseas and adopts it as his own

In TMWKK his reactions seem genuine to the Moorman photo and the supposed proof he was there. But by the same logic, the location he chooses to film the motorcade given all the area there for him to find a great vantage point... and how he steps back into the shadows and farther away from the street... BDM, if sinister, would not be hitting the dirt as seen in Nix or described by Yarborough and Rosemary.

He said he “felt” the first shot come from behind him, only inches over his left shoulder, he said. Now this has to be the frontal throat shot since he talks about more shots to come.

“I had just gotten out of basic training,” Arnold said, “In my mind live ammunition was being fired. It was being fired over my head and I hit the dirt.”

Arnold, then 22, said the first two shots came from behind the fence, “close enough for me to fall down on my face.” He stayed there for the duration of the shooting. The “He stayed there” is not a quote from GA so I am not sure that accurately describes what he did... but that makes sense given the timing of the throat shot, and the witness statements. Problem is... if he was down after the throat shot... he WAS NOT standing up in Moorman filming the motorcade... he was on the ground.

The Moorman BM group is a fabrication... GA could NOT have been in that photo and the size of BM and Hatman leads to them not actually being there either. Much more likely one of these 2 black people was BDM if it wasn't Hudson

Sitzman is very specific about them being there thru the headshot, then throwing the bottles and running... Is there no other mention of this couple seen running behind the pergola and thru the RR yard?

Cliff –

Rosemary was a child at the time and quite a distance from the BDM position. Not saying she was wrong by any means... just that there was also a motorcade between her and the GK. She saw something for sure... being able to pinpoint it as a single, conspicuous person... and to give ANY credibility to HCSA findings it a matter of conjecture... I believe Rosemary and I also believe Sitzman. And if we believe Arnold, he was on the ground right by z205, the 1st shot, the throat shot and NOT seen in Moorman.

I put together this sequence of Rosemary... we don’t see her after z220 or so. 5-6 seconds before the headshot equates to about 100 frames or 213... the graphic does show her following the limo from z214 thru 219 and maybe even looking a bit past (east) of it.

Is the bottle seen in Willis 6? My copy is not clear enough to tell.

I seem to see it in Bond 4, and in the same spot in Moorman. I also see what may be the head of BDM sitting on the bench in Moorman (thoughts?)

If BDM was one of the “kids” Sitzman sees, they are in the perfect position to leave the bottle there. Need to find images between z202 willis 5 and Moorman. Any ideas?

Finally... I have this that I believe shows the bottle even in moorman and someone sitting at the bench... but you have to squint really hard... :blink:

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Bill –

How GA knows what he knows is quite the mystery to me.... He was either

1) there as he says he was, or

2) he saw it from another vantage point, saw the black kids hit the ground and a shot coming from the GK and related the story as if it were him or

3) he somehow hears the story while overseas and adopts it as his own

In TMWKK his reactions seem genuine to the Moorman photo and the supposed proof he was there. But by the same logic, the location he chooses to film the motorcade given all the area there for him to find a great vantage point... and how he steps back into the shadows and farther away from the street... BDM, if sinister, would not be hitting the dirt as seen in Nix or described by Yarborough and Rosemary.

He said he "felt" the first shot come from behind him, only inches over his left shoulder, he said. Now this has to be the frontal throat shot since he talks about more shots to come.

Let us examine the alternatives ...

1) Arnold being there would certainly explain how he knew what to say so to not ever have the photo record prove him a xxxx.

I am not sure what you meant by stepping back into shadow because the same shaped sunspot seen on the BDM in Betzner is at the same location on the individual in Willis and Moorman. Unless we believe that at least two different people stood on the same location (one leaving and one coming), then its tough to explain the same sunspot hitting both individuals for the sunspot is light passing down through the trees above. A big step in any direction removes the sunspot.

Arnold was said to be concerned about the wrong people ever finding out he was up there ... Golz had to coax Gordon to talk at all. It would have been better for Gordon to have mentioned the black kids if that had been the case. I consider #2 to be weak and not be supported by the record.

What story could Gordon have adopted ... Groden's Nix work came in the 90's and Mack and White's work was in the 80's. It's not enough to have said JFK was shot from the knoll, but Arnold knew that the shot came over his left shoulder and at the precise time it needed to so to be supported by two film sources ... two sources by the way that were not known about for at least two decades.

Then there is the best image showing this individual wearing the color clothing needed to match Gordon's uniform. This was even more supported by the color Nix film.

Bill

Edited by Bill Miller
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That shot from behind the fence, and behind them, is why they disappeared. . . when they dropped down and took cover behind the retaining wall.

Ken, What am I missing here? There is no "they" according to the Nix film ... only one person is seen in the Nix film print I was able to view and that one person dropped from view after the shot from the fence. Had it not been for Moorman's photo and the Nix print Groden had ... I could accept the possibility that you offer, but they cannot be dismissed. There isd no testimony of anyone seeing the black couple in that area after Sitzman last saw them well before the shooting took place ... if there is, then can someone show it to me?

Bill

FWIW, there are news reports, both radio and newspaper as I recall, of a black couple being seen "scrambling" (I think is how one reads) along a walkway after the shooting.

Todd,

Thanks for joining in. Appreciate your input.

The original report came from AP's Jack Bell, mentioning a man and woman but with no reference to color. On CBS, Walter Cronkite said:

". . . this man and woman we reported earlier were on a hilltop, were seen scrambling to the upper level of a walkway overlooking an underpass which the car was approaching."

In this case, he was referring to the Hesters scrambling around at the top of the knoll. However. . .

Way back in 1964, author Thomas Buchanan referred to radio reports about a fleeing couple who could not have been the Hesters. Buchanan said:

"The first radio reports which followed the assassination said the fleeing couple had been chased by a policeman on a motorcycle, who had raced up an embankment after them, but his pursuit presumably was thwarted by a wire fence which protects a parking lot behind which they were heading."

These reports must have been referring to the young black couple. There's no one else it could be. Not in this context. Meanwhile, the policeman on a motorcyle who was racing in their direction -- giving the appearance that he was chasing them as they fled to the parking lot -- was apparently none other than Bobby Hargis. His "pursuit" up the knoll not only gives us an early confirmation of Sitzman's story but also provides us with an approximate time at which point this couple ran off.

Ken

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Now this has to be the frontal throat shot since he talks about more shots to come.

Whether BDM was Gordon Arnold, the black couple, or a shooter dressed as a cop,

I think there is a general consensus here that the activity of BDM was related

to the frontal shot to JFK's throat, which is the important issue.

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Great. Now put your cut and paste figure further back from the wall at the top of the steps in both of the Willis and Betzner photos. Then we might have a more accurate idea of how tall the BDM figure really was in comparison to a 5'9" woman in heels.

Ken

Sigh, you don't seem to understand.

Your BDM couple (one is always hidden and didn't watch the motorcade) is 4´7" if

they were standing on the sidewalk. Thats ridiculous.

Right on, Martin .. I wish I could do that stuff. Now ... are you able to get the ground level at the wall on its west side?

Bill

Thanks Bill.

Yes, the ground level would be on the wall west side. Thats the reason why i used a dotted line.

best to you

Martin

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Great. Now put your cut and paste figure further back from the wall at the top of the steps in both of the Willis and Betzner photos. Then we might have a more accurate idea of how tall the BDM figure really was in comparison to a 5'9" woman in heels.

Ken

Sigh, you don't seem to understand.

Your BDM couple (one is always hidden and didn't watch the motorcade) is 4´7" if

they were standing on the sidewalk. Thats ridiculous.

No, actually, I do understand. You're right. Your conclusion that BDM was 4'7" is absolutely ridiculous. So either rework your math, come up with some alternatives, or drop it altogether if you can't take it seriously.

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Great. Now put your cut and paste figure further back from the wall at the top of the steps in both of the Willis and Betzner photos. Then we might have a more accurate idea of how tall the BDM figure really was in comparison to a 5'9" woman in heels.

Ken

Sigh, you don't seem to understand.

Your BDM couple (one is always hidden and didn't watch the motorcade) is 4´7" if

they were standing on the sidewalk. Thats ridiculous.

No, actually, I do understand. You're right. Your conclusion that BDM was 4'7" is absolutely ridiculous. So either rework your math, come up with some alternatives, or drop it altogether if you can't take it seriously.

Ok, i see. Rigid biasedness. No problem.

Have fun with your hobbits on the sidewalk. lol

Martin

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That shot from behind the fence, and behind them, is why they disappeared. . . when they dropped down and took cover behind the retaining wall.

Ken, What am I missing here? There is no "they" according to the Nix film ... only one person is seen in the Nix film print I was able to view and that one person dropped from view after the shot from the fence. Had it not been for Moorman's photo and the Nix print Groden had ... I could accept the possibility that you offer, but they cannot be dismissed. There isd no testimony of anyone seeing the black couple in that area after Sitzman last saw them well before the shooting took place ... if there is, then can someone show it to me?

Bill

FWIW, there are news reports, both radio and newspaper as I recall, of a black couple being seen "scrambling" (I think is how one reads) along a walkway after the shooting.

Todd,

Thanks for joining in. Appreciate your input.

The original report came from AP's Jack Bell, mentioning a man and woman but with no reference to color. On CBS, Walter Cronkite said:

". . . this man and woman we reported earlier were on a hilltop, were seen scrambling to the upper level of a walkway overlooking an underpass which the car was approaching."

In this case, he was referring to the Hesters scrambling around at the top of the knoll. However. . .

Way back in 1964, author Thomas Buchanan referred to radio reports about a fleeing couple who could not have been the Hesters. Buchanan said:

"The first radio reports which followed the assassination said the fleeing couple had been chased by a policeman on a motorcycle, who had raced up an embankment after them, but his pursuit presumably was thwarted by a wire fence which protects a parking lot behind which they were heading."

These reports must have been referring to the young black couple. There's no one else it could be. Not in this context. Meanwhile, the policeman on a motorcyle who was racing in their direction -- giving the appearance that he was chasing them as they fled to the parking lot -- was apparently none other than Bobby Hargis. His "pursuit" up the knoll not only gives us an early confirmation of Sitzman's story but also provides us with an approximate time at which point this couple ran off.

Ken

Re: Running black couple.

we first see the Chism family standing on the curb in Bronson.

we then see them in Bothun standing behind the stemmons sign.

we then see them in Rickerby running.

we also see mr's Chism in Nix

and lastly we see the Chism's in Willis 6 standing in between the motorcycle and the cop running up the hill.

Picture_41.jpg

Bothunphotographers.jpg

Edited by Robin Unger
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That shot from behind the fence, and behind them, is why they disappeared. . . when they dropped down and took cover behind the retaining wall.

Ken, What am I missing here? There is no "they" according to the Nix film ... only one person is seen in the Nix film print I was able to view and that one person dropped from view after the shot from the fence. Had it not been for Moorman's photo and the Nix print Groden had ... I could accept the possibility that you offer, but they cannot be dismissed. There isd no testimony of anyone seeing the black couple in that area after Sitzman last saw them well before the shooting took place ... if there is, then can someone show it to me?

Bill

FWIW, there are news reports, both radio and newspaper as I recall, of a black couple being seen "scrambling" (I think is how one reads) along a walkway after the shooting.

Todd,

Thanks for joining in. Appreciate your input.

The original report came from AP's Jack Bell, mentioning a man and woman but with no reference to color. On CBS, Walter Cronkite said:

". . . this man and woman we reported earlier were on a hilltop, were seen scrambling to the upper level of a walkway overlooking an underpass which the car was approaching."

In this case, he was referring to the Hesters scrambling around at the top of the knoll. However. . .

Way back in 1964, author Thomas Buchanan referred to radio reports about a fleeing couple who could not have been the Hesters. Buchanan said:

"The first radio reports which followed the assassination said the fleeing couple had been chased by a policeman on a motorcycle, who had raced up an embankment after them, but his pursuit presumably was thwarted by a wire fence which protects a parking lot behind which they were heading."

These reports must have been referring to the young black couple. There's no one else it could be. Not in this context. Meanwhile, the policeman on a motorcyle who was racing in their direction -- giving the appearance that he was chasing them as they fled to the parking lot -- was apparently none other than Bobby Hargis. His "pursuit" up the knoll not only gives us an early confirmation of Sitzman's story but also provides us with an approximate time at which point this couple ran off.

Ken

we first see the Chism family standing on the curb in Bronson.

we then see them in Bothun standing behind the stemmons sign.

we then see them in Rickerby running.

we also see mr's Chism in Nix

and lastly we see the Chism's in Willis 6 standing in between the motorcycle and the cop running up the hill.

car2.jpg

willis_Slide_5.jpg

Edited by Robin Unger
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That shot from behind the fence, and behind them, is why they disappeared. . . when they dropped down and took cover behind the retaining wall.

Ken, What am I missing here? There is no "they" according to the Nix film ... only one person is seen in the Nix film print I was able to view and that one person dropped from view after the shot from the fence. Had it not been for Moorman's photo and the Nix print Groden had ... I could accept the possibility that you offer, but they cannot be dismissed. There isd no testimony of anyone seeing the black couple in that area after Sitzman last saw them well before the shooting took place ... if there is, then can someone show it to me?

Bill

FWIW, there are news reports, both radio and newspaper as I recall, of a black couple being seen "scrambling" (I think is how one reads) along a walkway after the shooting.

Todd,

Thanks for joining in. Appreciate your input.

The original report came from AP's Jack Bell, mentioning a man and woman but with no reference to color. On CBS, Walter Cronkite said:

". . . this man and woman we reported earlier were on a hilltop, were seen scrambling to the upper level of a walkway overlooking an underpass which the car was approaching."

In this case, he was referring to the Hesters scrambling around at the top of the knoll. However. . .

Way back in 1964, author Thomas Buchanan referred to radio reports about a fleeing couple who could not have been the Hesters. Buchanan said:

"The first radio reports which followed the assassination said the fleeing couple had been chased by a policeman on a motorcycle, who had raced up an embankment after them, but his pursuit presumably was thwarted by a wire fence which protects a parking lot behind which they were heading."

These reports must have been referring to the young black couple. There's no one else it could be. Not in this context. Meanwhile, the policeman on a motorcyle who was racing in their direction -- giving the appearance that he was chasing them as they fled to the parking lot -- was apparently none other than Bobby Hargis. His "pursuit" up the knoll not only gives us an early confirmation of Sitzman's story but also provides us with an approximate time at which point this couple ran off.

Ken

Ken,

Thanks for your reply - . I find them, and your posts in general, to always be very insightful. We should talk sometime.

Yes, I’m familiar with the Jack Bell report – I listened to it just last night.

I'm not so sure that the Bell report is referring to the Hesters, though I certainly have and do continue to consider that.

However there are reports that specifically mention a “negro” man/woman/couple. I think this is in a newspaper report, a radio report, and perhaps a TV report. I have a file on this that I’m trying to locate that has the newspaper reports, and I’m trying to locate the radio and TV report.

The Buchannan passage is interesting, and I was unaware of it, however I have a lot of the radio coverage for that day and have so far never heard anything like that.

As far as Hargis running up the knoll, he did not, despite his seeming claim to have in his somewhat confusing WC testimony. It was Haygood who ran up the knoll. Films and photos show that Hargis parked his motorcycle on the south side of Elm Street (Weigman, Bond 4, Bothun 4). We next see him (Bell) standing hear the lamppost nearest the fallen Newmans on the north side of Elm Street. We then see him run from there (Couch) back to his cycle (Bond 4), remount (Bothun 4), and continue down Elm through the underpass (Atkins, just barely). Haygood then parks his cycle at the north Elm curb near the manhole opening (Couch, Bell, etc,) and runs up the knoll (Bond, Cabluck, Skaggs, Cancellare, etc.)

Nonetheless, certainly Hargis’s actions could have given the appearance that he was chasing them as they fled to the parking lot, as you suggest. Haygood arrives too late for that.

The “cycle up the knoll” witnesses are perplexing. There are several of them, but the films and photos show no such thing occurred. I do have one report that indicates that it may have occurred on the West side of the underpass.

Todd

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Bill –

How GA knows what he knows is quite the mystery to me.... He was either

1) there as he says he was, or

2) he saw it from another vantage point, saw the black kids hit the ground and a shot coming from the GK and related the story as if it were him or

3) he somehow hears the story while overseas and adopts it as his own

In TMWKK his reactions seem genuine to the Moorman photo and the supposed proof he was there. But by the same logic, the location he chooses to film the motorcade given all the area there for him to find a great vantage point... and how he steps back into the shadows and farther away from the street... BDM, if sinister, would not be hitting the dirt as seen in Nix or described by Yarborough and Rosemary.

He said he "felt" the first shot come from behind him, only inches over his left shoulder, he said. Now this has to be the frontal throat shot since he talks about more shots to come.

Let us examine the alternatives ...

1) Arnold being there would certainly explain how he knew what to say so to not ever have the photo record prove him a xxxx.

I am not sure what you meant by stepping back into shadow because the same shaped sunspot seen on the BDM in Betzner is at the same location on the individual in Willis and Moorman. Unless we believe that at least two different people stood on the same location (one leaving and one coming), then its tough to explain the same sunspot hitting both individuals for the sunspot is light passing down through the trees above. A big step in any direction removes the sunspot.

Arnold was said to be concerned about the wrong people ever finding out he was up there ... Golz had to coax Gordon to talk at all. It would have been better for Gordon to have mentioned the black kids if that had been the case. I consider #2 to be weak and not be supported by the record.

What story could Gordon have adopted ... Groden's Nix work came in the 90's and Mack and White's work was in the 80's. It's not enough to have said JFK was shot from the knoll, but Arnold knew that the shot came over his left shoulder and at the precise time it needed to so to be supported by two film sources ... two sources by the way that were not known about for at least two decades.

Then there is the best image showing this individual wearing the color clothing needed to match Gordon's uniform. This was even more supported by the color Nix film.

Bill

FWI, Grodens Nix work first appeared in the early 1980's in his first video, one he produced for Western New England College. I have a copy.

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FWIW, there are news reports, both radio and newspaper as I recall, of a black couple being seen "scrambling" (I think is how one reads) along a walkway after the shooting.

Todd,

I am sure you do not believe the photos were altered and would probably also agree that newspaper reports in situations like this during moments of mayhem are often unreliable. There is no doubt that the black couple left the walkway area, however the photo record doesn't show them doing so anytime between Betzner's photo being taken before the first shot rang out right through to the Nix film showing the one lone individual up there going to the ground.

I can see someone who is an alteration supporter considering the black couple being at the bench, but those who do not cannot have it both ways. I think in the Betzner photo the pyracantha bush blocks the corner of Elm and Houston, which could cause someone sitting on the bench to get up and move to a better vantage point.

Also, (not related to this response), I know Sitzman mentioning a bottle breaking, but none of the assassination films and photos show broken glass along the walkway. The only liquid seen looks to be confined to one puddle as if poured out ... and certainly not from a bottle smashing against the concrete. I hear this continually coming up and I just wanted to mention it.

Thanks,

Bill

Bill,

Yes, I do not believe the photos (or films) were altered and yes, I agree that newspaper reports in situations like this during moments of mayhem are often unreliable. However there are several reports of this, from different reporters, and not just newspaper reports but also radio reports. I have a file of these reports that I am trying to find (things are still in a disarray due to a move)..

As for “the Nix film showing the one lone individual up there going to the ground”, I’m not convinced the Nix film shows any such thing. It shows movement, I agree, movement can be seen, and that it appears to be downward movement of something, but perhaps that’s just an arm coming down. To definitely say as you do that it’s a “lone individual…going to the ground” is nowhere near certain.

I don’t believe that the 1st shot occurred between Betzner 3 (Z-186) and Willis 5 (Z202).

As for “none of the assassination films and photos show broken glass along the walkway”,, I’m not sure that any should. The only film that really shows ANYTHING on the walkway (there are no “photos” as you imply) is the Darnell film, and the resolution on available copies and stills coupled with the view point of the camera, is nowhere near what is needed to be able to distinguish whether or not there was glass present.

Regarding the broken bottle, remember Jean Hills sno-cone from her WC testimony? Her diagram made during her testimony, Hill (Jean) Exhibit No. 5 at 20H158 places this on the walkway (look carefully at the exhibit, the stairway is drawn in and that is where she places the “blood”). I speculate that what she took to be a dropped sno-cone (ice and red liquid in her mind) was actually broken glass fragments and red pop (looking like ice and red liquid).

Todd

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These reports must have been referring to the young black couple. There's no one else it could be. Not in this context. Meanwhile, the policeman on a motorcyle who was racing in their direction -- giving the appearance that he was chasing them as they fled to the parking lot -- was apparently none other than Bobby Hargis. His "pursuit" up the knoll not only gives us an early confirmation of Sitzman's story but also provides us with an approximate time at which point this couple ran off.

Ken

Just how long after the alleged fleeing black couple was said to run off before Hargis gave chase?

Bill

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These reports must have been referring to the young black couple. There's no one else it could be. Not in this context. Meanwhile, the policeman on a motorcyle who was racing in their direction -- giving the appearance that he was chasing them as they fled to the parking lot -- was apparently none other than Bobby Hargis. His "pursuit" up the knoll not only gives us an early confirmation of Sitzman's story but also provides us with an approximate time at which point this couple ran off.

Ken

Just how long after the alleged fleeing black couple was said to run off before Hargis gave chase?

Bill

Hargis parked and got off his motorcycle right after the headshot. In the Weigman film as the limousine is at about the Z450 position, Hargis is off and parking his cycle, 7.5 seconds after the headshot.

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Whether BDM was Gordon Arnold, the black couple, or a shooter dressed as a cop,

I think there is a general consensus here that the activity of BDM was related

to the frontal shot to JFK's throat, which is the important issue.

You must have a far more advanced analytical mind than my own.

If one believes that Arnold or a black couple was the BDM image ... are you thinking there are people who think Arnold or the black couple shot JFK in the throat? I do not think the BDM figure had anything to do with the shooting other than being a witness to it.

BDM is seen before the first shot was fired (Z186). Other than a slight camera angle difference thus shifting the background slightly with the foreground ... the Willis photo shows no change. (Z202) The figure still standing above the wall in Moorman (Z315.6) still hasn't been effected by the shooting. Still standing in plain view ... not ducking down or running ... but when the last shot was fired, this individual moved left and down as if heading to the ground. My point being is that there is no evidence that BDM's activity was related to the throat shot to JFK in my view.

Bill

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