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Is the "Other" film a hoax?


Guest Duncan MacRae
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24 members have voted

  1. 1. Is the "Other" film a hoax?

    • Yes
      10
    • No
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Im not saying its not real footage, but just watch JFK and when the scene with Sitzman comes up it looks just like the one where Vince D'onofrio is playing Bill Newman and being interviewed in Dealey Plaza

Its looks to me like Stone shot that for his movie making it look like a real old interview

I have been right about another photo that members thought was real showing a policeman running across Elm with Babushka and others in the picture. It was not a real photo but a frame taken from JFK

:ph34r:

From memory the Sitzman frame came from Grodens JFK: The Case for Conspiracy: DVD

Thanks Robin, I have Grodens "JFK: The Case for Conspiracy" on DVD and will watch it tomorrow when I have time and will look for it

Edit: I have to add that both of Grodens DVDs (JFK: The Case for Conspiracy and The Assassination Films) are both my two favorite DVDs/VHS on the assassination. If you have not watched "JFK: The Case for Conspiracy" you need to buy it on DVD from Amazon or Ebay no matter what the price, it is an amazing program.

Edited by Dean Hagerman
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Dean,

On pg. 92 of "National Nightmare" is a frame from Darnell, that looks similar to this one.

Kathy

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Dean,

On pg. 92 of "National Nightmare" is a frame from Darnell, that looks similar to this one.

Kathy

Awesome Kathy! I grabbed my copy of "National Nightmare" and turned to page 92 and the picture hit me like a sledgehammer

I was wrong

Sorry guys, carry on

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Information provided by Gary Mack:

Gary writes, "You wondered if there was/is any independent confirmation for Zapruder being in Dealey Plaza. The answer is yes. First, the still frame showing Marilyn Sitzman talking to a man comes from TV news film shot by KTVT photographer Don Cook; the camera original footage was donated to The Sixth Floor Museum by the Roy Cooper family and the copyright was donated by KTVT. Since Roy compiled several hours of footage but reedited it, it's not possible to establish how soon after the assassination the film was shot. But scenes in adjacent footage that has no splices suggests it was very early after the shooting. I don't recognize the man, but he appears to be a reporter. Second, Dallas Morning News reporter Harry McCormick stopped Zapruder in Dealey Plaza and interviewed him there before he returned to his Dal-Tex office. McCormick wrote about the encounter early in 1964 when the News asked employees to write their personal accounts of the assassination weekend. His story, and additional confirmation from reporter Darwin Payne, appears in the Museum's Zapruder film time line: http://www.jfk.org/go/collections/about/zapruder-film-chronology "

Bill Miller

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Bill,

The detail in the flag between the red arrows.

As I asked previously, if someone has a non-newspaper copy of Altgen's with this detail, I'm all ears.

It does not exist in any of the best copies that have been submitted so far.

chris

Altgens6.png

I personally wouldn't waste time on obviously altered Newspaper prints. The one above has had the rear view mirror mount removed and I am certain that JFK didn't have such a narrow head ... just to name a few obvious alterations/air brush attempts. The clearest Altgens 6 print I have seen is the print Josiah Thompson posted long ago ... that would be the print that doesn't show JFK's head as narrow as most pan fish. biggrin.gif If a newspaper print shows more detail in the flag than Josiah's print, then it has been retouched, especially when other signs of retouching are seen.

So someone actually took time to add that detail to the logo on the flag. O.K. !!!!

I guess detail was added to the stonework of the TSBD, in the upper right side of the photo, too.

Or, maybe the newspaper version is a copy from a better generation Altgen's, than what is available, regardless of what doctoring/airbrushing/ etc,etc was done to the original.

chris

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Recently on this forum:

Robin Unger and Martin Hinrichs conclusively proved that the limo did not make a wide turn via their study of the lane markings in the Towner film.

Maybe Martin, and/or Robin could once again post their findings.

Hi Duncan

Is this the thread.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=16847&st=40

Someone can check with Gary Mack, but I seem to recall him saying to me once that the limo could be seen in part during that turn and it stayed to the middle lane. I believe that we were discussing Truly's statement about the turn. Gary would be the best person to ask for it was a long time ago and I may not be remembering it correctly.

Bill

Dorman frame showing part of the Limo and follow up car during the turn.

D-229.jpg

Dorman frame showing the distance from the south side curb to the motorcycles.

D-265.jpg

Chris / Martin

It would be interesting exersise to try to overlay the Dorman frame showing the Limo & follow up car onto a scaled overhead of the Dealey plaza corner.

Note the motorcycle is siiting next to the white road stripe !

Edited by Robin Unger
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and that the alteratationists, who simply believe without a single shred of proof that there was a wide limo turn, are profoundly wrong.

So Duncan, Roy Truly in your opinion isnt worth a shred?

Did Truly lie? Do you believe him on anything else that day (Like seeing Oswald in Lunchroom with Baker)?

Or did he just lie about the Limo?

Edited by Dean Hagerman
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So someone actually took time to add that detail to the logo on the flag. O.K. !!!!

I guess detail was added to the stonework of the TSBD, in the upper right side of the photo, too.

Or, maybe the newspaper version is a copy from a better generation Altgen's, than what is available, regardless of what doctoring/airbrushing/ etc,etc was done to the original.

chris

This details the problem with using repro images to judge photo quality, too many unknowns to make a firm conclusion. In your example of the z frames in Life yes they do look different but why? Is the original film different? Where there differences in the quality of the dupe photos from the original frames? Were the sep films shot differently? Did the guys at the film stripping table get the the one page slighlty out of register? Where the forms on which each page was placed tun on a different press? On a different day? By a different pressman? Was a printing plate out of register? Did they make adjustments to the color fountains to compensate for an ad images that ran just above or below the z frames on the form? Did they use makeready pages in bindery, made while getting the press "up to color"?

I know you do prepress, were you around pre-digital? When sep films were made in a process camera and films cut and pasted, by color layer, by guys using razor blades and red litho tape? Lots of silly things happened in this workflow. Heck even today with current tech and the best presses and pressmen around its still a crapshoot when you have the same image span two pages and jump the gutter. Getting both halfs to match is nutty. I have piles of examples of the same image in a brochure looking different from one page to the next.

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He might have been pissed for all we know.

However I think Truly played a weirdly significant role.

Again, a person with an apperent authority over that of the DPD.

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So Duncan, Roy Truly in your opinion isnt worth a shred?

Did Truly lie? Do you believe him on anything else that day (Like seeing Oswald in Lunchroom with Baker)?

Or did he just lie about the Limo?

Dean, i believe as Duncan too, that Roy Truly was mistaken at this point.

I believe he is honest but his memory is not supporting the photographic evidence.

This would be Jim Towner, Tina Towner and the Elsie Dorman film. Thats too much.

Thanks Duncan for pasting my quoting. :)

best to you Dean and Duncan

Martin

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I don't think Truly lied, I think he was simply mistaken.

Duncan,

I can live with a witness making a mistake, but why or how would Truly just "think" the limo made a wide turn almost up onto the curb?

Just seems like a pointless thing for him to say if it didnt really happen.

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So someone actually took time to add that detail to the logo on the flag. O.K. !!!!

I guess detail was added to the stonework of the TSBD, in the upper right side of the photo, too.

Or, maybe the newspaper version is a copy from a better generation Altgen's, than what is available, regardless of what doctoring/airbrushing/ etc,etc was done to the original.

chris

This details the problem with using repro images to judge photo quality, too many unknowns to make a firm conclusion. In your example of the z frames in Life yes they do look different but why? Is the original film different? Where there differences in the quality of the dupe photos from the original frames? Were the sep films shot differently? Did the guys at the film stripping table get the the one page slighlty out of register? Where the forms on which each page was placed tun on a different press? On a different day? By a different pressman? Was a printing plate out of register? Did they make adjustments to the color fountains to compensate for an ad images that ran just above or below the z frames on the form? Did they use makeready pages in bindery, made while getting the press "up to color"?

I know you do prepress, were you around pre-digital? When sep films were made in a process camera and films cut and pasted, by color layer, by guys using razor blades and red litho tape? Lots of silly things happened in this workflow. Heck even today with current tech and the best presses and pressmen around its still a crapshoot when you have the same image span two pages and jump the gutter. Getting both halfs to match is nutty. I have piles of examples of the same image in a brochure looking different from one page to the next.

Craig, sorry for being off topic.

Is my memory playing tricks with me or do your posting show up much later?

I was sure there was no posting from you hours ago, but now it's up. Did that happen always or am i mistaken?

I may have missed many of your previous postings as well. Not sure

Anyway

best

Martin

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Personally Bill, I think Zappy and Sitzman were on the pedestal, I think Zappy shot film, I think that was used with the "other" film to create what we know today as the Z-film

I just get tired of my fellow alterationists being made fun of and called out on the Zappy/Sitzman issue in regards to being clearly seen in any film or photos during the assassination.

Dean, your fellow alteration supporters are getting what they deserve in my view. For instance, I had one of them going on years ago about there was no clear image of Sitzman being in the Plaza and yet the woman turns and faces Zapruder's camera just prior to the assassination. That footage is taken at the colonnade with Sitzman talking to her friends - the Hester's. Then there is the interview of Sitzman at the pedestal ,,, pictures of Sitzman near the TSBD ... all showing her in the same clothes as seen on the woman at the pedestal. So why does another poorly researched alteration claim have to be made from all of this ... the answer may be what I just said 'poorly researched'.

As far as the Zapruder film being mixed with the alleged 'other film' .... that is impossible and here is why ...........................

It has been said that the other film is amazingly sharp ... the Zapruder film is not. The other film would have to be taken from another location than Zapruder's, this means it would be impossible to combine frames from the two films for they would not match when it came to the line of sight ... it would make Zapruder appear to have changed filming locations and that just didn't happen.

The other film could not have been shot from the doorway of the shelter or from within the windows on the walls because not only would Sitzman and Zapruder be in the shot (which no one has claimed so far) but the Bezner and Willis photos show a good view of the interior of that shelter and no one can be seen anywhere.

Bill

Edited by Bill Miller
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