Where in Altgens6 is LBJ?

[Bill Miller]

And I maintain that some of the timing/BDM/GA issues can begin to resolve themselves. If Yarborough remembers a man hitting the dirt at the first shot HE hears, and he hears 2 more shots.... GA, if the man he refers to as Bill asserts, must already be on the ground by Moorman. If this was a different person referred to, then GA has one less supporter for his story. Either way, the mystery of BDM and GA and the black couple and the coke remains intact.... for now.

DJ

Golz said that Yarborough said he saw the service man in Golz Article. Yarborough tells Turner's people that he knew there was a man who has had his infantry training and knew what to do during a shooting. So twice Yarborough knew there was a service man involved here and made a reference to that point, but it seems to go unnoticed for some reason. If these points don't indicate it was a man in uniform Yarborough was talking about, then why not contact Golz or Turner to see what else was said that didn't make it into the article or TV show. It's not like the information isn't available ... it just seems no one else cares to seek it.

Bill

Edited October 21, 2010 by Bill Miller

[Phil Nelson]

From the way one reads Phil's post one could assume he thinks LBJ is really not there...

This is not what I was asserting in starting the thread... he is of course there. I assume he meant that the photo may have been altered... on that I prefer not to comment.

Are you implying that Rufus claims he did these things at the urging of LBJ??? Even though he'd know the record and witnesses would not support the story? That too makes little sense... Rufus was very specific about what he says he did.

I heard an explosion--I was not sure whether it was a firecracker, bomb, bullet, or other explosion. I looked at whatever I could quickly survey, and could not see anything which would indicate the origin of this noise. I noticed that the movements in the Presidential car were very abnormal and, at practically the same time, the movements in the Presidential follow-up car were abnormal. I turned in my seat and with my left arm grasped and shoved the Vice President, at his right shoulder, down and toward Mrs. Johnson and Senator Yarborough. At the same time, I shouted

"get down!" I believe I said this more than once and directed it to the Vice President and the other occupants of the rear seat. They all responded very rapidly.

I quickly looked all around again and could see nothing to shoot at, so I stepped over into the back seat and sat on top of the Vice President. I sat in a crouched position and issued orders to the driver. During this time, I heard two more explosion noises and observed SA Hickey in the Presidential follow-up car poised on the car with the AR-15 rifle looking toward the buildings. The second and third explosions made the same type of sound that the first one did as far as I could tell, but by this time I was of the belief that they definitely were shots--not bombs or firecrackers. I am not sure that I was on top of the Vice President before the second shot--he says I was. All of the above related events, from the beginning at the sound of the first shot to the sound of the third shot, happened within a few seconds.

As far as other SS agents reacting already, that has not been demonstrated either:....

And the SS agents in the Queen Mary (in between JFK's and LBJ's car) are doing nothing other than what they did throughout the motorcade - looking all around them, front, behind, sides, just as they always do. The fact that some are looking backwards in that photo does not indicate that they are reacting to anything.

I have to disagree with you here Phil. A Zfilm shows the 2 agents nearest the TSBD slightly scan the area but do not react as they are photographed in Alt6, turning their heads completely around, nor do the others "not" react differently than simply scanning the crowd.

There is most definitely a reaction recorded by z255 that is outside the ordinary. The zfilm frame is 200, the last with the agents visible.

And I maintain that some of the timing/BDM/GA issues can begin to resolve themselves. If Yarborough remembers a man hitting the dirt at the first shot HE hears, and he hears 2 more shots.... GA, if the man he refers to as Bill asserts, must already be on the ground by Moorman. If this was a different person referred to, then GA has one less supporter for his story. Either way, the mystery of BDM and GA and the black couple and the coke remains intact.... for now.

DJ

btw Phil... just receieved your book along with Douglass' and Manchester's.... quite an interesting threesome of perspectives.

Now I just need the time to read...

David, thanks for buying my book; I don't think you'll find a great divergence of opinion between them, but different perspectives to be sure. Johnson was a master manipulator of other men and I believe he used his skills to portray Youngblood's actions much more gloriously than perhaps was the actual case. Doing so, calling him a "hero" and then awarding him a medal at a Rose Garden ceremony a week or two later was entirely consistent with how he manipulated others. He knew their strengths and weaknesses and how to get them to do his bidding. I realize how outlandish such a statement sounds and one probably needs to read the book to understand just how much of a conniver he really was. One of the clues to this was found in Youngblood's testimony to the Warren Commission: He “was not positive that he was in the rear seat before the second shot, but thought it probable because of President Johnson’s statement to that effect . . .” In other words, he was giving Johnson "due deference" and respect that people normally give to their "superiors", giving them a little more latitude and biting their tongue, so to speak.

As I noted in the book, "Senator Yarborough insisted that Youngblood never even left the front seat; he maintained that the agent merely turned around and talked to Johnson in an undertone and that there was no room for him to have come into the backseat in any case: “It just didn’t happen . . . It was a small car (relative to the Presidential Lincoln). Johnson was a big man, tall. His knees were up against his chin as it was. There was no room for that to happen."

After you've read the book, you'll understand why I became so jaded about Johnson and anything he might ever say; his own staff knew of his duplicitous character and how he "lied about everything, even when he didn't have to." I'm sorry, but those assertions are straight out of their mouths (several of them) not to mention JFK, RFK and many others. You'll get a good taste of this in Chapter 1, but it tracks throughout the rest of the book. Compared to the narcissism and untrustworthiness of Johnson, Sen. Yarborough was a Saint.

So, in answer to your point: "From the way one reads Phil's post one could assume he thinks LBJ is really not there..." I hope this and the other response to Bill Miller will answer that: Obviously, Johnson is still somewhere in the car, he just can't be seen - at least not clearly, definitively and conclusively seen - by anyone without a "benefit of a doubt" and a need for a high degree of subjective interpretation of a vary ambiguous, unclear portion of an otherwise very clear photograph.

Given the statement of patrolman B. J. Martin, "According to the guys who were escorting his car . . . he started ducking down in the car a good 30 or 40 seconds before the first shots were fired . . ." I think it is abundantly clear where Johnson was and why he can't be seen in that photograph.

Why so many refuse to believe people like Yarborough and Martin and instead continue extending the "benefit of the doubt" to Johnson, a certifiable, pathological xxxx, is something that continues to elude me.

[Phil Nelson]

The only part that I'm unsure about still is that "horizontal" line across the top of the seat back: I stated earlier that it could be Youngblood's arm stretched across there just before he turns around to commence his orders to all three to "get down." OR, it might be Lyndon Johnson's back as he begins to "duck" behind the seat.

No matter how one looks at it or how long - the left ear and hairline seen just to our left of the Agent who is twisting to his right to turn around and appears waist high to the women standing along the street is LBJ.

LBJ was right against the door panel with his arm over it as they neared the corner (see VP in the Nix film heading down Houston Street). The Agent in Altgens6 appears to me to be turning to his right and to do so to get up and turned around it makes sense that he has leaned slightly towards the driver so to complete the action. Isn't that what everyone does when trying to turn all the way around in their seat.

It's interesting about the amount of time one takes in studying something and how that applies to accomplishing something for I am reminded how some kids finished high school in three years and some took five ... I guess the question is if the five year student took two years longer than the three year student to finish a 4 year tenure ... does that mean the five year student learned more?

I am also reminded of another example where the class was once handed an blot-image to look at and they were to write down on a piece of paper what they thought they could see and pass it on. This one kid named Tommy couldn't figure it out and didn't make anything out of the picture, but when the picture was handed back to him and he was told to rotate it 180 degrees ... he got it!

The moral of the story wasn't about amount of time spent doing something, but rather the way one went about assessing the information they had before them.

Bill

Bill, before I posted this I had three more close looks at the "high quality" photograph. I can honestly say I see nothing resembling LBJ's ear, hairline or anything else resembling a human head. All I see in the figure which you speculate was LBJ is an irregularly shaped whitish blob, the darker portion of which is below the lighter upper part. I believe this is too far to the left to be even inside the car; in fact, it appears to be a portion of the coat of one of the bystanders behind the lady’s coat as I noted in my first post and which Martin also labeled as such in post #22.

As I stated originally, “Looking at it objectively, one can simply not make a convincing case that he is visible at all, given the lack of any definitive facial features (If I'm missing them, please furnish the proof). It is only through subjective interpretation that some are able to satisfy themselves that Johnson is there somewhere. . .” Again, I see nothing that can be said to be of a definitive feature of Johnson: no nose, no ear, no hairline, no nothing. I realize that I was never the “brightest bulb on the tree” and all, but I was able to keep up with the class sufficiently to have graduated high school in four years and college as well, despite having to simultaneously work my way through.

You also stated that Youngblood was sitting at a point putting him almost in the middle of the seat as he begins to turn to his right, though my inspection of the highest quality digital image indicates the depth of that field is not consistent with anyone in the front seat (yes, despite the effects of Altgen’s zoom lens which produces “depth of field” anomalies). But, given that he had also been sitting previously at the far right edge of the seat, it would seem to me that a more natural way to turn around in his seat would be to swing around to his left, especially if he had expected to jump into the back seat. I’m not aware of any photograph that shows which of these maneuvers was actually done however, so both of the scenarios are admittedly speculative.

[Bill Miller]

Why so many refuse to believe people like Yarborough and Martin and instead continue extending the "benefit of the doubt" to Johnson, a certifiable, pathological xxxx, is something that continues to elude me.

I think all politicians are quite capable to lie when they need to, but while Johnson's face is not in full view in A6 ... the left side of his head is - there is no one in that row of people who had a dwarf with big ears and the same color hair as Johnson standing with them at waist level - and if one looks at the spacing between Yarborough to Lady Bird and then look at the head I have pointed out .... the spacing from Lady Bird to the head I have pointed out should be correct and common sense should rule out in the end.

As far as Youngblood's turn goes ... he appears to be turned to his right in A6 and I have witnessed and done it myself when turning to look behind me with someone next to me and I will lean to my left so to have room to turn my body.

Bill

Edited October 21, 2010 by Bill Miller

[Robert Harris]

The only part that I'm unsure about still is that "horizontal" line across the top of the seat back: I stated earlier that it could be Youngblood's arm stretched across there just before he turns around to commence his orders to all three to "get down." OR, it might be Lyndon Johnson's back as he begins to "duck" behind the seat.

No matter how one looks at it or how long - the left ear and hairline seen just to our left of the Agent who is twisting to his right to turn around and appears waist high to the women standing along the street is LBJ.

LBJ was right against the door panel with his arm over it as they neared the corner (see VP in the Nix film heading down Houston Street). The Agent in Altgens6 appears to me to be turning to his right and to do so to get up and turned around it makes sense that he has leaned slightly towards the driver so to complete the action. Isn't that what everyone does when trying to turn all the way around in their seat.

It's interesting about the amount of time one takes in studying something and how that applies to accomplishing something for I am reminded how some kids finished high school in three years and some took five ... I guess the question is if the five year student took two years longer than the three year student to finish a 4 year tenure ... does that mean the five year student learned more?

I am also reminded of another example where the class was once handed an blot-image to look at and they were to write down on a piece of paper what they thought they could see and pass it on. This one kid named Tommy couldn't figure it out and didn't make anything out of the picture, but when the picture was handed back to him and he was told to rotate it 180 degrees ... he got it!

The moral of the story wasn't about amount of time spent doing something, but rather the way one went about assessing the information they had before them.

Bill

Bill, before I posted this I had three more close looks at the "high quality" photograph. I can honestly say I see nothing resembling LBJ's ear, hairline or anything else resembling a human head. All I see in the figure which you speculate was LBJ is an irregularly shaped whitish blob, the darker portion of which is below the lighter upper part. I believe this is too far to the left to be even inside the car; in fact, it appears to be a portion of the coat of one of the bystanders behind the lady’s coat as I noted in my first post and which Martin also labeled as such in post #22.

As I stated originally, “Looking at it objectively, one can simply not make a convincing case that he is visible at all, given the lack of any definitive facial features (If I'm missing them, please furnish the proof). It is only through subjective interpretation that some are able to satisfy themselves that Johnson is there somewhere. . .” Again, I see nothing that can be said to be of a definitive feature of Johnson: no nose, no ear, no hairline, no nothing. I realize that I was never the “brightest bulb on the tree” and all, but I was able to keep up with the class sufficiently to have graduated high school in four years and college as well, despite having to simultaneously work my way through.

You also stated that Youngblood was sitting at a point putting him almost in the middle of the seat as he begins to turn to his right, though my inspection of the highest quality digital image indicates the depth of that field is not consistent with anyone in the front seat (yes, despite the effects of Altgen’s zoom lens which produces “depth of field” anomalies). But, given that he had also been sitting previously at the far right edge of the seat, it would seem to me that a more natural way to turn around in his seat would be to swing around to his left, especially if he had expected to jump into the back seat. I’m not aware of any photograph that shows which of these maneuvers was actually done however, so both of the scenarios are admittedly speculative.

I find it interesting that Bill and Duncan are unable to see what everyone else sees in another photo but see what most others do NOT see in this one

I agree that we see nothing in the Altgens photo which firmly identifies LBJ, but we certainly do see a dark "blob" for lack of a better term, which could include LBJ and would IMO, seem unlikely to be anything else.

I know some people think LBJ was behind the assassination and that because of his foreknowledge, promptly ducked when the first shot was fired. But that really is a silly argument unless one thinks that he recruited shooters who were so terrible that he feared they would miss the President by three car lengths and hit him instead

And in fact my own research has confirmed that almost no one heard anything that he recognized as a gunshot until the very end of the attack, and well after that Altgens photo was snapped.

[Pat Speer]

FWIW, I was never able to figure out what was going on next to Lady Bird in this photo, but thanks to this thread, I now suspect we can see Youngblood on his feet with his body turned to his right, completely obscuring LBJ.

I'd previously assumed he'd turned to his left, which is why I couldn't make much sense of it. But it now seems to me that his left arm can be seen in profile, and his head is turned to the right and partially obscured by the windshield frame.

Edited October 21, 2010 by Pat Speer

[Bill Miller]

FWIW, I was never able to figure out what was going on next to Lady Bird in this photo, but thanks to this thread, I now suspect we can see Youngblood on his feet with his body turned to his right, completely obscuring LBJ.

Youngblood appears to be raising his left arm as he is twisting to his right ... the sun visor blocks out LBJ's eyes. The Daniel and Bell films show someone up in the car ... Bell's film shows this well before entering the underpass.

On another note about what the Doorman film shows ... I had asked Gary Mack if LBJ could be seen passing below between the film's sprocket holes and he replied ...

"Yes, the back end of LBJ’s car is visible through the Elm tree and the next frame, which is blurred, shows the yellow SS follow-up car right behind it. It appears at the right side of the frame, not in the sprocket hole area. A few frames later, the Cabell car with its partially closed left rear window passes under the traffic light. The clearest and full frame versions of the Dorman film are the Museum’s video transfer in the Discovery Channel show, “Death in Dealey Plaza” and in the DVD extras of the PBS video, “JFK: Breaking The News.”"

Bill

Edited October 21, 2010 by Bill Miller

[Kathleen Collins]

I believe Duncan is correct. It looks just like VP Johnson. Kennedy and Jackie were in shadow too in this photo, as was the driver of the limo who stopped and turned around to look at Kennedy.

There's that other photo, taken from the right front of Johnson with sunglasses on. First of all, it doesn't even look like Johnson. It looks more like Jack Ruby. In Duncan's photo, to me, Johnson doesn't look like he has sunglasses on.

Kathy C

[Robin Unger]

Large Paschall_Life_1967 Credit: Martin Hinrichs

Bell frame.

Edited October 22, 2010 by Robin Unger

[John Dolva]

?

[Bernice Moore]

I believe Duncan is correct. It looks just like VP Johnson. Kennedy and Jackie were in shadow too in this photo, as was the driver of the limo who stopped and turned around to look at Kennedy.

There's that other photo, taken from the right front of Johnson with sunglasses on. First of all, it doesn't even look like Johnson. It looks more like Jack Ruby. In Duncan's photo, to me, Johnson doesn't look like he has sunglasses on.

Kathy C

kathy re the posted photo of lbj with sunglasses that i have marked with zap..chris ; i wrote to chris davidson and asked for further information, but have not heard back, if and when i will post whatever he says...b

[Martin Hinrichs]

FWIW, I was never able to figure out what was going on next to Lady Bird in this photo, but thanks to this thread, I now suspect we can see Youngblood on his feet with his body turned to his right, completely obscuring LBJ.

I'd previously assumed he'd turned to his left, which is why I couldn't make much sense of it. But it now seems to me that his left arm can be seen in profile, and his head is turned to the right and partially obscured by the windshield frame.

Hi Pat,

you see Youngblood on his feet turn to his right? Can you please indicate via postwork what you believe to see?

Youngblood is not completely obscuring Johnson. Parts of him are visible. I also can't see his left arm in profile.

Can you help me to see what you believe?

I've spend maybe more time with this photo than any other photograph.

Lil self promotion: I've colored this Altgens 6 crop some time ago and almost everything is clear to me.

Thank you forward.

Martin

[Chris Davidson]

I believe Duncan is correct. It looks just like VP Johnson. Kennedy and Jackie were in shadow too in this photo, as was the driver of the limo who stopped and turned around to look at Kennedy.

There's that other photo, taken from the right front of Johnson with sunglasses on. First of all, it doesn't even look like Johnson. It looks more like Jack Ruby. In Duncan's photo, to me, Johnson doesn't look like he has sunglasses on.

Kathy C

kathy re the posted photo of lbj with sunglasses that i have marked with zap..chris ; i wrote to chris davidson and asked for further information, but have not heard back, if and when i will post whatever he says...b

Bernice,

Check your email, I sent you a response a couple of days ago.

As for LBJ in Altgens, it sure looks like his hairline. imo

chris

[Robin Unger]

Looks like LBJ to me as well hard up against the door.

The yellow line indicates the alighnment of the sides of the car body. ( leading back to LBJ'S door )

Edited October 23, 2010 by Robin Unger

[Martin Hinrichs]

Looks like LBJ to me as well hard up against the door.

The yellow line indicates the alighnment of the sides of the car body. ( leading back to LBJ'S door )

Chris & Robin,

yes, thats it. Good eye.