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Did Oswald Practice Tradecraft?


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What evidence is there he had particularly sensitive info or that he passed it to the Soviets?

You know, you should have red the review. Here we go again:

Another thing the author finds puzzling about this early file is that he could find no trace of a security investigation about the danger of Oswald's defection. This is really odd because while talking to some of his friends the author found out that Oswald knew something that very few people did: the U-2 was also flying over China. If Snyder's original memo said that Oswald had threatened to give up secrets on radar operation to the Russians, and Oswald had been stationed at the U-2 base in Japan, there should have been a thorough security investigation as to what Oswald could have given the Russians. For the obvious reason that the program could be adjusted to avoid any counterattack based upon that relayed information. Newman could find no evidence of such an inquiry. (pgs 28,33-34) Further, the author found out that Oswald was actually part of a unit called Detachment C, which seemed to almost follow the U-2 around to crisis spots in the Far East, like Indonesia. (p. 42)

Needless to say, after Oswald defected, the second U-2 flight over Russia--with Gary Powers on board--was shot down. Powers felt that, "Oswald's work with the new MPS 16 height-finding radar looms large" in that event. (p. 43) The author segues here to this question: Whatever the CIA did or did not do in regard to this important question, it should have been a routine part of the Warren Commission inquiry. It was not. As the author notes, "When called to testify at the Warren Commission hearings, Oswald's marine colleagues were not questioned about the U-2." (p. 43) Oswald's commander in the Far East, John Donovan, was ready to discuss the issue in depth. The Commission was not. In fact, Donovan was briefed in advance not to fall off topic. (p. 45) When it was over, Donovan had to ask, "Don't you want to know anything about the U-2." He even asked a friend of his who had testified: "Did they ask you about the U-2?" And he said, "No, not a thing." (Ibid) Donovan revealed that the CIA did not question him about the U-2 until December of 1963. But this was probably a counter-intelligence strategy, to see whom he had talked to and what he had revealed. Why is that a distinct probability? Because right after Powers was shot down, the CIA closed its U-2 operations at Atsugi. Yet, Powers did not fly out of Atsugi. As Newman notes, the only link between Powers and Atsugi was Oswald. (p. 46)

So the meat of it is that decades after the fact Newman could not locate certain documents he expected should have been generated. On the other hand even after 50 years and decades after the Soviets archives have been opened to researchers not a single Russian document indicating it was due to LHO intel they were able to down the plane has surfaced, nor apparently have any Soviet military/intel veterans have come forward.

Nor AFAIK has anyone explained why the CIA would want to compromise one of its most valuable intel gathering tools. They stopped flying U2's over the USSR after this. It also created problems for Pakistan and tarnished Ike's prestige. If they wanted to spoil the summit less compromising methods could have been employed.

"...right after Powers was shot down, the CIA closed its U-2 operations at Atsugi. Yet, Powers did not fly out of Atsugi. As Newman notes, the only link between Powers and Atsugi was Oswald. (p. 46)"

If true the CIA probably "closed its U-2 operations at Atsugi" because they stopped their Soviet overflights. In anycase this is silly why would they close Atsugi if they themselves had engineered the info transfer? Why would planes from their be more vulnerable than ones from other bases?

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What evidence is there he had particularly sensitive info or that he passed it to the Soviets?

You know, you should have red the review. Here we go again:

Another thing the author finds puzzling about this early file is that he could find no trace of a security investigation about the danger of Oswald's defection. This is really odd because while talking to some of his friends the author found out that Oswald knew something that very few people did: the U-2 was also flying over China. If Snyder's original memo said that Oswald had threatened to give up secrets on radar operation to the Russians, and Oswald had been stationed at the U-2 base in Japan, there should have been a thorough security investigation as to what Oswald could have given the Russians. For the obvious reason that the program could be adjusted to avoid any counterattack based upon that relayed information. Newman could find no evidence of such an inquiry. (pgs 28,33-34) Further, the author found out that Oswald was actually part of a unit called Detachment C, which seemed to almost follow the U-2 around to crisis spots in the Far East, like Indonesia. (p. 42)

Needless to say, after Oswald defected, the second U-2 flight over Russia--with Gary Powers on board--was shot down. Powers felt that, "Oswald's work with the new MPS 16 height-finding radar looms large" in that event. (p. 43) The author segues here to this question: Whatever the CIA did or did not do in regard to this important question, it should have been a routine part of the Warren Commission inquiry. It was not. As the author notes, "When called to testify at the Warren Commission hearings, Oswald's marine colleagues were not questioned about the U-2." (p. 43) Oswald's commander in the Far East, John Donovan, was ready to discuss the issue in depth. The Commission was not. In fact, Donovan was briefed in advance not to fall off topic. (p. 45) When it was over, Donovan had to ask, "Don't you want to know anything about the U-2." He even asked a friend of his who had testified: "Did they ask you about the U-2?" And he said, "No, not a thing." (Ibid) Donovan revealed that the CIA did not question him about the U-2 until December of 1963. But this was probably a counter-intelligence strategy, to see whom he had talked to and what he had revealed. Why is that a distinct probability? Because right after Powers was shot down, the CIA closed its U-2 operations at Atsugi. Yet, Powers did not fly out of Atsugi. As Newman notes, the only link between Powers and Atsugi was Oswald. (p. 46)

So the meat of it is that decades after the fact Newman could not locate certain documents he expected should have been generated. On the other hand even after 50 years and decades after the Soviets archives have been opened to researchers not a single Russian document indicating it was due to LHO intel they were able to down the plane has surfaced, nor apparently have any Soviet military/intel veterans have come forward.

Nor AFAIK has anyone explained why the CIA would want to compromise one of its most valuable intel gathering tools. They stopped flying U2's over the USSR after this. It also created problems for Pakistan and tarnished Ike's prestige. If they wanted to spoil the summit less compromising methods could have been employed.

"...right after Powers was shot down, the CIA closed its U-2 operations at Atsugi. Yet, Powers did not fly out of Atsugi. As Newman notes, the only link between Powers and Atsugi was Oswald. (p. 46)"

If true the CIA probably "closed its U-2 operations at Atsugi" because they stopped their Soviet overflights. In anycase this is silly why would they close Atsugi if they themselves had engineered the info transfer? Why would planes from their be more vulnerable than ones from other bases?

Powers didn't fly out of Atsugi. He flew out of Pakistan, I think, and there was another base in Turkey, where there was also an NSA listening post.

Even if Oswald didn't tell the Ruskies anything at all about the U2 or what he knew, specifically about the MPS-16 or TPX-1, that alone would tell the USA that the Soviets already had all the information they needed on those items, and that alone would be of value.

And the U2 for Soviet overflights was nearing the end of its operational life because of the introducton of the Corona satellite recon, a much better and more easily operated system.

http://www.russianbo.../oswald/kgb.htm

http://www.wf.net/~b...jfk/donovan.htm

Mr. ELY. Are authentication codes changed from time to time as a matter of course?

Mr. DONOVAN. They are changed from time to time, that is right.

Mr. ELY. Are they changed even if there is no specific incident which elicits the change?

Mr. DONOVAN. They are methodically changed anyway. There are some things which he knew on which he received instruction that there is no way of changing, such as the MPS 16 height-finder radar gear. That had recently been integrated into the Marine Corps system. It had a height-finding range far in excess of our previous equipment, and it has certain limitations. He had been schooled on those limitations.

It cannot operate above a given altitude in setting--in other words, you cannot place the thing above a given terrain height. He had also been schooled on a piece of machinery called a TPX-1, which is used to transfer radio---radar and radio signals over a great distance. Radar is very susceptible to homing missiles, and this piece of equipment is used to put your radar antenna several miles away, and relay the information back to your site which you hope is relatively safe. He had been schooled on this. And that kind of stuff you cannot change.

Mr. ELY. Did Oswald have any kind of clearance?

Mr. DONOVAN. He must have had secret clearance to work in the radar center, because that was a minimum requirement for all of us.

Mr. ELY. Was the spot at which he worked such that in order to gain admittance one would have to show some sort of credentials?

Mr. DONOVAN. Yes; they checked your card data. Within the center, which is called a counter-air operations center, he rotated through all positions of an enlisted man. At times, as I told you, he served as plotter, sometimes surveillance, sometimes expert as crew chief.

Mr. ELY Were you the one who picked the crew chief?

Mr. DONOVAN. I was in a rather favorable position, since I was the training officer and assistant operations officer, that I had first choice of crew chiefs. I always picked one of two men either Sgt. Cornelius Brown or Sgt. Eugene Holmburg. I have already told you where Sergeant Brown is.

Sergeant Holmburg is now a commissioned warrant officer and still on active duty in the Marine Corps.

Mr. ELY. Did you ever pick Oswald to act as crew chief?

Mr. DONOVAN. There was occasion when Oswald acted as crew chief. If one of these sergeants had his work.another duty somewhere else, and Oswald was senior man present, he was crew chief. And I had no complaint about ........

'

Mr. ELY. Did he show any special ability in this direction?

Mr. DONOVAN. Yes; I think he was competent, very competent. And I think he did his job well. I don't recall anything coming up that he could not handle.

He had the access to the location of all bases in the west coast area, all radio frequencies for all squadrons, all tactical call signs, and the relative strength of all squadrons, number and type of aircraft in a squadron, who was the commanding officer, the authentication code of entering and exiting the ADIZ, which stands for Air Defense Identification Zone. He knew the range of our radar. He knew the range of our radio. And he knew the range of the surrounding units' radio and radar.

Edited by William Kelly
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I think noting the upgrade is significant if one recognises that part of the Cold War arsenal was the arms race, particularly in electronics.

You don't release the next big thing until you've squeezed out as much as possible out of the old. This forced the USSR to spend more and more on developing countermeasures.

So, essentially Oswald really had nothing compromising of value.

I don't know if people remember the Fox that landed in Japan and this very much cutting edge machine was built with relatively crude components.

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Ray, can you tell us in two brief paragraphs how Oz is not a spook

and how he was made the patsy?

The patsy question would require 50 pages at least. As for the spook question, all I can say in a few words is that no one has ever offered credible evidence to support such a theory. Maybe evidence will come to light in the future, but for now believers in the theory are relying on BLIND FAITH.

This is ridiculous.

What is pure blind faith is saying he was a Marxist when:

1.No one has ever surfaced of that stripe who said he knew Oswald. In fact, the commies who have surfaced suspected Oswald was a CIA agent.

2. No Marxist ever studied ever had the profile that Oswald did. Consider: joins the CAP and hangs out with a rightwing zealot like Ferrie, tried to join the Marines underage, does join the Marines and learns the Russian Language, pulls a phony hardship discharge that is specially handled, defects to Russia announcing he has secrets to surrender, takes a Russian wife who defects back to the USA, hangs out with the rightwing White Russians in Texas, hangs out with the rightwing CIA agents and Cuban exiles in New Orleans (the first wish to overthrow the Commies in Russia, the second wish to overthrow Castro in Cuba), allegedly goes to Mexico to get a visa to Russia through Cuba, yet has no idea how it is actually done, and somehow the people at the Cuban consulate say it was not him and the CIA had no photos of him and the voice on the tapes is not him.

While this is happening, Otto Otepka is going through an inhuman ordeal that will ultimately cost him his job simply because he wants to know if Oswald was a genuine or fake defector. Finally, Marxist Oswald tries to call military intelligence officer John Hurt in Raleigh on Saturday night. The Secret Service will not let the call through.

The next morning, Oswald is murdered.

That is some commie Ray. Show me another.

JIM

ON TARGET!

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What is pure blind faith is saying he was a Marxist when:

1.No one has ever surfaced of that stripe who said he knew Oswald. In fact, the commies who have surfaced suspected Oswald was a CIA agent.

Yeah - I notice there were never any Peter, Paul and Leon albums...

Edited by David Andrews
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The next morning, Oswald is murdered.

That is some commie Ray. Show me another.

By comparison with Mr. Di Eugenio's hatred of Lee Oswald, the Warren Commission looks almost civilized.

I've stayed out of this, but the above is way out of line, I think. At no point has Jim claimed his hatred for Lee, by claiming he worked for Intelligence.

What a low thing to claim on another's behalf... :angry:

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Thanks Steve. I think Oswald is an even more pathetic character if one understands he is a low level intelligence operative. I mean, he was only doing his job, not knowing he was being manipulated. If it was really him who blew the whistle on the Chicago plot, then one could actually say he was a tragic figure. SInce if the plot had succeeded, Oswald would not have been killed.

Good find Cliff, but there were no details about Galman's life to draw a comparison with, though obviously he was the scapegoat in the Aquino plot.

Galman was another patsy accused of being a Communist. Marcos learned the lesson from the JFK assassination: don't let the patsy get out alive.

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I think Oswald is an even more pathetic character if one understands he is a low level intelligence operative. I mean, he was only doing his job.,

Did he work without pay because he was really some kind of super-patriot?

BTW, calling him a commie is a bit much. He did not claim to be one, and after seeing communism in action in Russia, he was not particularly impressed, as we know from his speech in Mobile to the Jesuits.

BTW, Jim, since you make a big deal of claiming that whenever Oz ENCOUNTERS some person or group he is therefore ASSOCIATING with them, why don't you call him a Jesuit while you're at it?

It is interesting to see that no one here seems to believe in fair play for Lee Oswald. Any of you ever heard of the notion of Justice?

Edited by J. Raymond Carroll
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I think Oswald is an even more pathetic character if one understands he is a low level intelligence operative. I mean, he was only doing his job.,

Did he work without pay because he was really some kind of super-patriot?

BTW, calling him a commie is a bit much. He did not claim to be one, and after seeing communism in action in Russia, he was not particularly impressed, as we know from his speech in Mobile to the Jesuits.

BTW, Jim, since you make a big deal of claiming that whenever Oz ENCOUNTERS some person or group he is therefore ASSOCIATING with them, why don't you call him a Jesuit while you're at it?

It is interesting to see that no one here seems to believe in fair play for Lee Oswald. Any of you ever heard of the notion of Justice?

And we missed celebrating his birthday on October 18 (1939) - pushing 70. It's hard to imagine Oswald at 70 or JFK at 93.

BK

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And we missed celebrating his birthday on October 18 (1939) - pushing 70. It's hard to imagine Oswald at 70 or JFK at 93.

BK

Hey Bill: Many thanks indeed for the info you PM'd. I guess I owe you a large Tullamore Dew. Speaking of which, I recently finished Stieg Larsen's fabulous trilogy beginning with The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo. Larsen may be the best mystery writer since Edgar Allen Poe invented the genre. The BIG question, i.e. what kind of alcohol would a girl like this drink, remains unanswered until the final volume (The Girl Who Kicked the Hornet's Nest) and the answer is....Tullamore Dew.

Back to the thread: Has no one here ever heard of the concept of JUSTICE?

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Complete silliness. On something like this the payoff comes after. Because you risk blowing the cover.[/b]

Are you claiming that he became a secret agent while still a teenager, before he went to Moscow?

Have you ever tried to persuade a teenager to delay gratification? I have, shepherding four kids through that phase of life. Believe me, it doesn't work.

More silliness. The point is twofold 1.) The commie never seemed to encounter any other commies did he? Use some of your great research skills and show us if he did. 2.)

After his sojourn in Minsk, he was a lukewarm fan of Communism at best, as he made clear on numerous occasions.

What do you call the Corliss Lamont flyer with Banister's address on it?

It did not have Bannister's address on it. You are close, but no cigar!

What do you call driving up to Clinton-Jackson with Shaw and Ferrie? Maybe taking a tour of the country side?

I call that that another Garrison fantasy, just like Garrison's fantasy that OZ carried a rifle to work in furtherance of his SUPPOSED conspiratorial agreement to murder JFK.

You are the oddball who still wants to believe in Wesley Liebeler's Warren Commission fantasy, as refined by Priscilla Johnson.

Maybe you actually read my posts here, but if you do, you surely do not understand them. I claim, very specifically, that Lee Oswald had NOTHING WHATSOEVER TO DO with the JFK assassination, and that those who accuse him are just playing games and have no real interest in solving the case.

BTW, how do you, (and the same applies to many members) hope to figure out how to solve the case when you have not even been able up to now to figure out how to use the forum software, even though it has been explained repeatedly.

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I claim, very specifically, that Lee Oswald had NOTHING WHATSOEVER TO DO with the JFK assassination, and that those who accuse him are just playing games and have no real interest in solving the case.

Carroll to David Von Pein on 08/12/10:

"Hello David. You may feel like an outlaw here, but IMO you are closer to the truth than most of the members. You are correct in thinking that Lee Oswald acted alone."
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I claim, very specifically, that Lee Oswald had NOTHING WHATSOEVER TO DO with the JFK assassination, and that those who accuse him are just playing games and have no real interest in solving the case.

Carroll to David Von Pein on 08/12/10:

"Hello David. You may feel like an outlaw here, but IMO you are closer to the truth than most of the members. You are correct in thinking that Lee Oswald acted alone."

I am sure David Von Pein, who is much smarter than Mr. Hogan (though equally misguided), was able to figure this one out. If Lee Oswald had nothing to do with the conspiracy to murder JFK, then he acted alone, just like Mr. Von Pein did, and just like I did.

Is that too complicated for you Mike?

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