Did Oswald Practice Tradecraft?

[J. Raymond Carroll]

But as Newman notes: defection is legal

Bully for you, JimBoy! There is no law against going to live in another country. I have done it many times, and got away with it!

Edited October 25, 2010 by J. Raymond Carroll

[J. Raymond Carroll]

OK, Ray Baby, now explain the other things in the two paragraphs:

JimBoyBaby, in case you have not noticed, I am here to ACCUSE the CIA & the Warren Commission, not to defend them.

I am here to defend the innocent Lee Oswald against the false accusations of Garrison, the CIA, the HSCA and the Warren Commission, remember? Or is that too much for YOU to hold in your head at one time?

Edited October 25, 2010 by J. Raymond Carroll

[J. Raymond Carroll]

Ray Baby,

You are here ...To confuse matters.

JimBoyBaby, it is remarkably easy to confuse you Oswald accusers. The idea that Lee Oswald was innocent is just too complicated for your poor little heads to understand.

Edited October 25, 2010 by J. Raymond Carroll

[David Andrews]

Ray - you're offering assertions (hearsay), not a defense.

[J. Raymond Carroll]

Ray - you're offering assertions (hearsay), not a defense.

More precisely, David, his accusers are offering ACCUSATIONS, not evidence.

[David Andrews]

OK - strike 'hearsay.' I thought there was a broader legal definition, now I'm set wise.

Marguerite Oswald defied her surviving sons and asserted that the DPD Oswald was a soldier working undercover for his country. Did she offer any assertions through hearsay of statements to that effect made by Lee? I still tend to believe her, regardless.

So, see, now I can use it in a sentence.

Edited October 25, 2010 by David Andrews

[J. Raymond Carroll]

Marguerite Oswald ... asserted that the DPD Oswald was a soldier working undercover for his country. Did she offer any assertions through hearsay of statements to that effect made by Lee?

When Marguerite learned that Lee had gone to live in the Soviet Union, she convinced herself that he must have gone there on Government business. She contacted the State Department, and even went to meet with them in Washington, but they disabused her of that notion. THis was entirely her own idea. At the time, the story of Lee's "defection" was printed in many newspapers, and it was considered shameful. One of Lee's grade school teachers was quoted as saying that she knew Lee as a very good kid, and she could not believe that he had "gone bad."

But no, her belief was not based on anything Lee said, it was just a mother's wishful thinking about her beautiful baby.

Of course Jim Garrison also convinced himself on the same lines, and his disciples remain true believers down to this very day.

[David Andrews]

If anything, I'm a Mark Lane disciple, historically.

[J. Raymond Carroll]

If anything, I'm a Mark Lane disciple, historically.

Then you must know that Lane became a Garrison disciple, as he reveals in A CITZEN'S DISSENT. He even went to live in New Orleans to become a Garrison advisor, and he had a front row seat when Garrison delivered the opening statement that I posted earlier on this thread.

Edited October 25, 2010 by J. Raymond Carroll

[John Dolva]

I've only checked the payments for january '63 onwards with the calendar. (should have created a 62 one while I was at it) The amounts seem to fall regularly on even spaced thursdays. I suppose one could project that through to November and use that as a prediction to see if the pattern continues should further data become available. Alao to what extent do they coincide with other events.

[William Kelly]

Marguerite Oswald ... asserted that the DPD Oswald was a soldier working undercover for his country. Did she offer any assertions through hearsay of statements to that effect made by Lee?

When Marguerite learned that Lee had gone to live in the Soviet Union, she convinced herself that he must have gone there on Government business. She contacted the State Department, and even went to meet with them in Washington, but they disabused her of that notion. THis was entirely her own idea. At the time, the story of Lee's "defection" was printed in many newspapers, and it was considered shameful. One of Lee's grade school teachers was quoted as saying that she knew Lee as a very good kid, and she could not believe that he had "gone bad."

But no, her belief was not based on anything Lee said, it was just a mother's wishful thinking about her beautiful baby.

Of course Jim Garrison also convinced himself on the same lines, and his disciples remain true believers down to this very day.

Wait a minute.

If Marguerite told her doctor that her son was going to defect to USSR months before he did it, then he had to tell her of his plans before hand.

BK

Edited October 25, 2010 by William Kelly

[J. Raymond Carroll]

If Marguerite told her doctor that her son was going to defect to USSR months before he did it, then he had to tell her of his plans before hand.

BK

THis doctor story is news to me Bill. Can you please give us FULL details?

[Greg Parker]

If Marguerite told her doctor that her son was going to defect to USSR months before he did it, then he had to tell her of his plans before hand.

BK

THis doctor story is news to me Bill. Can you please give us FULL details?

Most things seem to be news to you.

But I wouldn't let this revelation worry you.

The good doctor contacted the FBI after the assassination to let it know that Marguarite had been his patient at the time of her work injury. He claims she told him during one visit that a son (un-named) was using her as a punching bag and that he planned to defect to the Soviet Union.

The HSCA found the story unconvincing, as do I for the same reasons and more.

Goldberg HSCA footnote

The "and more" is this: if she had all this pre-knwledge, why on earth would she stay silent about it during her battles to have her son recognised as an agent of the US government? And why did Goldberg do nothing at the time about either allegation (the beatings or the wish to defect which would have been seen as tantamount to a threat to commit treason).

No. This is not needed to show that the early out was fraudulent and assisted from within; nor is it needed to demonstrate Oswald was not merely a confused malcontent when he was waving bye-bye to the USA.

Edited October 25, 2010 by Greg Parker

[Len Colby]

In Philip Melanson's book, he addresses the discharge issue as such: the Marines could have placed him under investigation, and even court martialed him for threatening to give away state secrets. Which he had done. (Melanson, p. 13)

Yes and Brando’s character in On the Waterfront “COULD have been a contender” just because something could have been does not establish that but for an unproven factor it would have happened. He was no longer in the US.

“Instead, they gave him an undesirable discharge instead of a dishonorable one.”

Perhaps that’s because there was no evidence, let alone proof, at the time he had given the Russians secrets. His KGB handlers said he told them stuff but they already knew it. But of course this only came out after the fall of the USSR. Did the Navy even know he had threatened to do so? Though the rules of evidence are different in courts martial there still needs to be evidence and the burden of proof is still on the prosecution. Cite one case of someone being court marshaled for threatening to do something (non-violent).

“Colby, as for you, I feel like I am arguing with someone in JFK assassination 101.”

That’s because you a strawmanizing my points.

“What are you going to say, Oswald never took a Russian test? (Actually he took two. Melanson, p. 11) That this was never disclosed to the WC?”

No, you are right he took two, but it seems be started studying the language of his own initiative.

“That the WC did not know about Oswald at the Monterey School of Languages? (Melanson, p. 12) That by the time he left the Marines, he had almost mastered one of the most difficult languages there is to master? (ibid)”

• What evidence is there he actually studied there? One site posts a document, of undisclosed providence, that supposedly proves this but it has him taking 6 week courses in Jacksonville and an AFB in Biloxi.

http://whokilledjfk.net/spy.htm (5th document from the bottom)

• According to Melanson, “there is no known official record of Oswald having studied there" (pg 12). On page 141 he wrote (emphasis added - this may be a quote) “The pinko Marine retains his security clearance and PEHAPS even studies at the government’s Monterey School”. Sorry if those are out of context I'm depending on what's available through Google Books

http://books.google.com/books?ei=asLFTLqhIM2r8Abl2OH0Bg&ct=result&id=xt13AAAAMAAJ&dq=philip+melanson&q=opposite#search_anchor

• When was he ever close enough to Monterey to have studied there?

• Take a look at the Asperger’s thread, according to the people who knew him in the USSR he was far from mastering Russian even after having lived there a year.

• I’m a foreign language teacher, people learn at different rates, I’ve had students who had diplomas and sometimes even post-graduate degrees from top universities who learned slowly but also ones with only secondary education who learned quickly, motivation and determination are key factors.

“What are you going to say about the CAP? That Oswald was not there? (Melanson, p. 43) That Ferrie did not have a reputation for sending kids from the CAP to the services? (Interview with LJ Delsa, 1995. Delsa was an HSCA investigator) That Oswald did not undergo a transformation at this time? After all, he went from studying the Marines Corps manual to studying Karl Marx. Happens every day, right? (Ibid).”

No, of course he was there, see my previous post. Do you really think Ferrie recruited him when he was 15? Can you cite any documented cases of American agents being recruited that young? According to most accounts he became interested in Communism after receiving a pamphlet about the Rosenbergs while still in NYC. What evidence does Melanson have that this interest only started after he met Ferrie or that one led to the other?

“As for the Raleigh call, there is very little doubt that the man who did the best work on that was Grover Proctor:

http://groverproctor.us/jfk/jfk80.html”

I’m glad that you think he “did the best work on that” because his account does back your assertions

1) It is far from established LHO actually tried to make such a call

2) Even if he did it is not clear which John Hurt he was trying to call

3) One of the men by that name in Raleigh was in Army Intelligence during WWII

4) He claimed to have worked as an insurance investigator after the war, Proctor made no mention of evidence he was involved with intel afterward

5) Though Proctor says he was an officer that is not borne out by his own transcript

6) Apparently we only know he was in AI because he volunteered this information.

7) If the story is true LHO seems not to have known Hurt’s phone number making unlikely he was Ozzie’s “contact”

“I invite anyone to read his two essays and compare them with your spin job. There is little doubt at all that Oswald was trying to call the military intelligence officer who lived about three hours from Nags Head, the huge navy base from which the defector program was operated out of.”

• “There is little doubt” = “I believe this to be true but don’t have any evidence.”

• His essays don’t support your version of events

• Do you really think 3 plus hours each way is a reasonable commute?

• Hurt was Army not Navy

• He left the Army in 1945

• I grew up in NC and never heard of a Navy base there let alone a “huge” one, I found no evidence of one on Google either

• What evidence do have of this supposed defector program was run out of this seemingly non-existent Navy base? Anything besides the undocumented assertions of Victor Marchetti. I’d take him more seriously if he didn’t have a habit of associating with neo-Nazis

“No one even knows who the other guy was. The Secret Service did not let the call through. And the paper was then tossed away. John Hurt clearly tried to cover up what had happened, and so did his wife. First the story was that Hurt knew nothing about it. THen it was that he had called the station and left his number. BS since there were two numbers on the note paper.”

• When did Hurt say “HE had called the station?”

• What did his WIFE have to do with anything?

• Other than the slip of paper what corroboration is there that these calls took place?

• If Hurt really was his contact why didn’t LHO know his number?

“THere is a very compelling fact about the call. The day after he tried to make it, Oswald was dead.”

Lots of things that we know happened the day and day before he was killed yet you focus on a supposed incident. If your theory is correct it makes no sense to believe he would remain quiet or do you think he would have gone to the electric chair without saying anything, i.e. they would have killed him anyway.

“OK, now answer my questions.”

Your questions are based on false assumptions and thus are unanswerable.

[Len Colby]

Talk about a pile of smoke.

Where do you begin with such a stack of malarkey.

As I have repeated over and over, the question about the U2 is this: Why did the CIA not investigate what Oswald did or did not do until AFTER JFK WAS DEAD. As John Newman notes in his book, this smells of a CYA ploy.

“As I have repeated over and over” perhaps that was because he had nothing of value to offer as both Dino Burgoni and his KGB handler said.

“The report about Oswald being at Monterey is in the WC executive session hearings! And Rankin says he was there, not that he was supposed to be there.”

Funny then that Melanson said there’s no documentation. I’m sure you can provide a citation.

“Further, I know for a fact that when Oswald was in California, he was not always where he was reported to be. I found this out by interviewing a Marine who visited El Toro. He actually took Oswald's bunk because the CO, said, "He's gone a lot." How many Marine pals of Oswald have you interviewed Len?”

Even if what you claim is true, all that you “know for a fact” is that the ex-Marine told you what LHO’s CO supposedly told him several decades earlier. Did this guy claim to have known Oswald? What steps if any did you take to verify his bona fides?

"Ferrie did not recruit him into the CAP. Ed Voebel did. But there is no doubt that after the CAP experience a transformation took over. He became a split image: a guy who read Marx, and wanted to join the Marines. According to Melanson and Bill Davy, Oswald joined the CAP when he was 16. (Melanson, p. 43; Davy, p. 5)"

-I was obviously asking you if Ferrie recruited him into the CIA

-LHO claims to have been a Marxist since he was 15 before he left NYC, do you have any evidence this was not the case? Apparently his diaries sustain this, were they forged?

-Both of his older brothers were in the military, Robert who especially idolized was a Marine, you don’t need a cloak and dagger plot to imagine him signing up.

"Anyone who lives in the area knows about the huge Navy Base at Nags Head. For you to say you grew up in NC and did not is surprising. Where did you live: in the boondocks in the western part of the state? Most everyone in the triangle--Raleigh, Durham, Charlotte--has heard of it. I just got visited by a film maker who lives in Durham. He told me all about it at just the drop of its name."

Funny then there is no trace of it on the Net. I think you are confusing Nags Head NC with Norfolk VA which is indeed “home for the Navy's largest concentration of naval forces” https://cnic.navy.mil/NorfolkSTA/AboutCNIC/History/index.htm

"He told me all about it at just the drop of its name."

You either made that up or confused it with a another facility like Norfolk or one of the big Army/Marine bases near Fayetteville. I think the latter more likely.

"Marchetti told Proctor about the Navy defector program run out of Nags Head. He also said that it was the Hurt call that sealed Oswald's fate."

Sorry I don’t find him credible especially since he said the program was run out of a non-existent facility. Do you really think it makes sense that if LHO was CIA and they killed JFK and set him up they could let him live?

"All of your stuff about Oswald actually not making the call is pure smoke. The woman who salvaged the paper from the trash is a good witness to the attempted call and the Secret Service thwarting of it. The HSCA investigated the evidence and even Blakey said it was an attempted outgoing call by Oswald."

The woman has never told anyone but Fensterwald about the supposed call. She could have been confused, she could have made it up, he could have made it up.

"The idea that Hurt was now divorced completely from any intelligence work is such a reach that I don't even want to address it. Yeah sure. And Guy Banister was actually a police investigator and then a private detective when he got out of ONI and the FBI."

What evidence do you have that he remained after the war? Julia Child, Sterling Hayden, William Sloane Coffin and Herbert Marcuse were all in the OSS during WWII so I gues by your “logic” me must assume they were all CIA in the 60's or later! Eros and Civilization and The French Chef must have been special ops. Perhaps Child embedded code words into her TV programs.

"Further, if it had not been him who Oswald had tried to call, the HSCA would surely have said so, since Blakey was determined to cut off Oswald from the intelligence community. Or weren't you aware of that. And second, Hurt and his wife would not have made up those cover stories. As what his wife told Henry Hurt in Reasonable Doubt. (pgs. 244-45. Do you read any books on this case? Or just Jean Davison's?)"

Never read her book, I read a few assassination books in high school, I think they were Rush To Judgement, Six Seconds in Dallas and The Plot to Kill the President. Can you provide the Henry Hurt quote?It is quite possible the HSCA was unable to determine who he was trying to call or even if the call took place.

"It is silly to say that if LHO did not have Hurt's phone number on him, that somehow he could not have been a final cut out in an emergency. Sure, Angleton tells Oswald, "Lee, if you ever get in real trouble on any of the missions I have in mind for you, and you think you are in real danger, please call John Hurt in Raleigh North Carolina. He will relay the message to me, I will then get you off the hook." And LHO then writes all this down in his notebook, right? So say someone like Martello can find it?"

LHO had a good memory and it is not difficult to memorize a phone number.

"Your last comments make no sense. What Marchetti was saying about the call was this: it revealed that Oswald was confused about what had happened and why he was in the position he was now in. All you have to do to see that is look at his reaction on film when they tell him he is accused of killing Kennedy. So by Saturday night he is worried enough to try and place a call to his cut out man to get instructions on how to proceed. In other words: when are they going to bail him out? What LHO did not understand is that Angleton was not going to bail him out. But the fact that LHO was worried about his situation enough to call that early was enough for Jim to do what he had done before: burn an agent."

No your comments make no sense, if LHO was a deep cover agent they would had to have wacked him phone call or no phone call. It also makes no sense they would set up one of their own and not kill him off immediately. Why did LHO wait until Saturday night to call?

Edited October 26, 2010 by Len Colby