Lee and Me

[Pamela Brown]

Attempting to demonstrate that a particular kind of LINAC was most likely not available in NOLA in 1963 begs the question of whether or not a LINAC could have caused the damage noted to Dr. Sherman.

Here is a link that discusses a few accidents with LINACS:

http://users.csc.calpoly.edu/~jdalbey/SWE/Papers/THERAC25.html

[Stephen Roy]

Certainly as regards my area of expertise (Ferrie), his books cannot be taken as presenting any verifiable evidence that Ferrie had a secret lab in his apartment or even worked with Dr. Mary Sherman.

And yet, with all due respect, your view is that of a '3 Monkey Ferrie' is it not? He neither sees, hears, nor speaks anything connected to conspiracy. So how are we to evaluate your statements that Ferrie had no connection to Dr. Sherman?

No, you're deeply mischaracterizing a book you haven't even read yet. I report everything about Ferrie, good & bad, including some new stuff.

The Sherman connection is a two-parter: Haslam presents no verifiable evidence that they were connected (nor does Baker); and there is evidence that argues against it. It is not simply "my statements," although I think one reader wishes it was.

Not so. I know nothing about any 'book'.

I correctly characterize posts you have made here on aaj where you have repeatedly said Ferrie had no connection to Lee Oswald, much less Dr. Sherman.

When Oswald and Ferrie appear in a photo together the question becomes not whether they knew each other, but how well. But you don't seem to have grasped that concept yet.

I have noted that Ferrie denied remembering Oswald. Am I supposed to suppress that? As for Sherman, there is just no evidence that he knew her. As for the photo, I have noted that it was taken in 1955, when Oswald was 15. Am I supposed to suppress that? Is there something wrong with objectively relating both sides?

I am one researcher who has looked very carefully at (and behind) the Haslam and Baker books, and expressed an opinion about them. The opinion of one person should be of no consequence to either writer; so I don't understand why Baker finds it necessary to start attacking me, largely through others, where my opportunities to respond are limited. I'm not trying to limit book sales by doing reviews on Amazon; I'm just expressing an opinion with my colleagues in the research field. Baker shouldn't feel so threatened by my opinions.

Edited April 24, 2011 by Stephen Roy

[Michael Hogan]

Attempting to demonstrate that a particular kind of LINAC was most likely not available in NOLA in 1963 begs the question of whether or not a LINAC could have caused the damage noted to Dr. Sherman.

Here is a link that discusses a few accidents with LINACS:

http://users.csc.calpoly.edu/~jdalbey/SWE/Papers/THERAC25.html

There were three deaths discussed in that paper. One person lived five months after the accident. Another lived three months. The other lived for three weeks. None of those incidents has anything to to with the begged question or sheds any light on Mary Sherman's death.

What evidence does Ed Haslam offer that a particle accelerator could have caused Sherman's death? Can any of his supporters answer that simple question?

Haslam's critics are not obligated to "demonstrate that a particular kind of LINAC was most likely not available in NOLA in 1963."

It is incumbent on Haslam to demonstrate that there likely was one. Or as Haslam puts it:

And it put new emphasis on our question: Did Mary Sherman have access to a linear particle accelerator?

I had fairly good personal information that there was at least one linear accelerator in New Orleans in the 1960s: The Jesuit priest who taught physics in 1968 confided to our class that there was a linear accelerator being used 'for research at a medical facility in New Orleans.'

Although the linear accelerator is one of the linchpins of his book, Haslam doesn't bother to give the reader any more details of that encounter.

What did the priest say about the accelerator? Where was it located? What kind of research was it used for? What was the teacher's name? The careful reader is left wondering if Haslam just made it up.

Why didn't Haslam attempt to look his teacher up? Did he attempt to find any of the faculty that might have worked with that teacher?

Did Haslam attempt to find any of his classmates? Even if unsuccessful, he could have mentioned such attempts in his footnotes.

Do people really believe that a LPA so top-secret that there is no evidence (no paper trail and no eyewitnesses) that it ever existed and yet, paradoxically, a high school teacher knew about it?

These are the types of questions Ed Haslam does not want to be asked and consistently has refused to answer in the almost five years since Dr Mary's Monkey was published.

These questions and scores more were posted repeatedly in more detail on the JVB threads. Haslam's biggest booster, Jim Fetzer didn't want to answer them either.

Too much of Haslam's book has a distinctly fictive feel. If people want to buy what he is selling, more power to them.

[Pamela Brown]

Certainly as regards my area of expertise (Ferrie), his books cannot be taken as presenting any verifiable evidence that Ferrie had a secret lab in his apartment or even worked with Dr. Mary Sherman.

And yet, with all due respect, your view is that of a '3 Monkey Ferrie' is it not? He neither sees, hears, nor speaks anything connected to conspiracy. So how are we to evaluate your statements that Ferrie had no connection to Dr. Sherman?

No, you're deeply mischaracterizing a book you haven't even read yet. I report everything about Ferrie, good & bad, including some new stuff.

The Sherman connection is a two-parter: Haslam presents no verifiable evidence that they were connected (nor does Baker); and there is evidence that argues against it. It is not simply "my statements," although I think one reader wishes it was.

Not so. I know nothing about any 'book'.

I correctly characterize posts you have made here on aaj where you have repeatedly said Ferrie had no connection to Lee Oswald, much less Dr. Sherman.

When Oswald and Ferrie appear in a photo together the question becomes not whether they knew each other, but how well. But you don't seem to have grasped that concept yet.

I have noted that Ferrie denied remembering Oswald. Am I supposed to suppress that? As for Sherman, there is just no evidence that he knew her. As for the photo, I have noted that it was taken in 1955, when Oswald was 15. Am I supposed to suppress that? Is there something wrong with objectively relating both sides?

I am one researcher who has looked very carefully at (and behind) the Haslam and Baker books, and expressed an opinion about them. The opinion of one person should be of no consequence to either writer; so I don't understand why Baker finds it necessary to start attacking me, largely through others, where my opportunities to respond are limited. I'm not trying to limit book sales by doing reviews on Amazon; I'm just expressing an opinion with my colleagues in the research field. Baker shouldn't feel so threatened by my opinions.

My question is how do you intend to deal with two people being documented in the same photo. Nothing needs to be 'suppressed'. Is it not up to you to determine how to weigh Ferrie's statement that he did not remember Lee Oswald when he in fact appeared in a photo with him and interacted with him at CAP? Was Ferrie trying to get off the hook or was he sincere?

I don't know what you mean by 'Baker attacking you through others'. I have criticized your perspective on Ferrie since I first read your posts. How do you weigh and evaluate people being in proximity and yet supposedly having nothing to do with each other?

As far as Ferrie's connection, if any, to Dr. Sherman, I get the impression you have no curiousity about that at all, despite the fact that Ferrie had an interest in cancer, did have mice at one time, and was in possession of a treatise on cancer when he died. Are these all just curious coincidences that we will not look at, hear of, or speak about?

[Pamela Brown]

Attempting to demonstrate that a particular kind of LINAC was most likely not available in NOLA in 1963 begs the question of whether or not a LINAC could have caused the damage noted to Dr. Sherman.

Here is a link that discusses a few accidents with LINACS:

http://users.csc.calpoly.edu/~jdalbey/SWE/Papers/THERAC25.html

There were three deaths discussed in that paper. One person lived five months after the accident. Another lived three months. The other lived for three weeks. None of those incidents has anything to to with the begged question or sheds any light on Mary Sherman's death.

What evidence does Ed Haslam offer that a particle accelerator could have caused Sherman's death? Can any of his supporters answer that simple question?

Haslam's critics are not obligated to "demonstrate that a particular kind of LINAC was most likely not available in NOLA in 1963."

It is incumbent on Haslam to demonstrate that there likely was one. Or as Haslam puts it:

And it put new emphasis on our question: Did Mary Sherman have access to a linear particle accelerator?

I had fairly good personal information that there was at least one linear accelerator in New Orleans in the 1960s: The Jesuit priest who taught physics in 1968 confided to our class that there was a linear accelerator being used 'for research at a medical facility in New Orleans.'

Although the linear accelerator is one of the linchpins of his book, Haslam doesn't bother to give the reader any more details of that encounter.

What did the priest say about the accelerator? Where was it located? What kind of research was it used for? What was the teacher's name? The careful reader is left wondering if Haslam just made it up.

Why didn't Haslam attempt to look his teacher up? Did he attempt to find any of the faculty that might have worked with that teacher?

Did Haslam attempt to find any of his classmates? Even if unsuccessful, he could have mentioned such attempts in his footnotes.

Do people really believe that a LPA so top-secret that there is no evidence (no paper trail and no eyewitnesses) that it ever existed and yet, paradoxically, a high school teacher knew about it?

These are the types of questions Ed Haslam does not want to be asked and consistently has refused to answer in the almost five years since Dr Mary's Monkey was published.

These questions and scores more were posted repeatedly in more detail on the JVB threads. Haslam's biggest booster, Jim Fetzer didn't want to answer them either.

Too much of Haslam's book has a distinctly fictive feel. If people want to buy what he is selling, more power to them.

Michael,

Your post is very well thought out and you bring up excellent points. I did not intend to make any direct claims about a connection of the damage documented in the link I posted to Dr. Sherman's injuries, but just to open up the topic for discussion. Is it completely unreasonable that such damage could have been done by a LINAC?

On the other hand, your points about Haslams' speculations are well taken. It is very frustrating reading about how his hunches just happen to link together really important issues. He just happens to meet the right person at the right time, smell a certain smell that could only be dead mice, and so on. I thorougly enjoyed the first edition of MF&TMV just because it was so far out. It talked about tantilizing possibilities in the dark recesses of NOLA. But when he paired up with Judyth my interest and curiousity were challenged. Could something like this bioweapon possibly have happened, or is it so unrealistic as to be just plain ludicrous? Is Haslam revealing things we will thank him for 20 years from now, or has he created a parallel universe which Judyth has just hopped right into?

[Jack White]

My opinion is that LHO is probably inserted in the picnic photo. Its provenance is unknown.

Jack

[Stephen Roy]

My question is how do you intend to deal with two people being documented in the same photo. Nothing needs to be 'suppressed'. Is it not up to you to determine how to weigh Ferrie's statement that he did not remember Lee Oswald when he in fact appeared in a photo with him and interacted with him at CAP? Was Ferrie trying to get off the hook or was he sincere?

I don't know what you mean by 'Baker attacking you through others'. I have criticized your perspective on Ferrie since I first read your posts. How do you weigh and evaluate people being in proximity and yet supposedly having nothing to do with each other?

As far as Ferrie's connection, if any, to Dr. Sherman, I get the impression you have no curiousity about that at all, despite the fact that Ferrie had an interest in cancer, did have mice at one time, and was in possession of a treatise on cancer when he died. Are these all just curious coincidences that we will not look at, hear of, or speak about?

Is there a conflict between Ferrie and Oswald being seen in a photograph eight years before the assassination and Ferrie saying he didn't remember him?

Attacking me through others: On Fetzer's blog, which will not accept my responses.

For God's sake, PLEASE stop saying things like I have no curiosity at all about a Ferrie-Sherman connection. OF COURSE I had curiosity about it. That's why I have spent time looking though documents and hunting down people to try to find traces of it, looking at the Haslam and Baker materials to see if I could find anything to confirm or deny them. It is insulting for you to make such an untrue statement.

And what research have you been doing on the Ferrie-Sherman relationship, or original research to copnfirm or deny the Haslam and Baker stories? You've been commenting on this matter for years. What research have you done to advance our knowledge?

Edited April 26, 2011 by Stephen Roy

[David Andrews]

Stephen, just a Ferrie-tangential question: in 1963, were there Civil Air Patrol cadet uniforms?

Prior to reaching Houston Street, the Dallas motorcade was interrupted when a teenage male wearing a uniform ran out in the street. Secret Service subdued him. A suspected weapon may have been involved - but I may be in error there.

It's in a thread from c. 2006 on EdForum. It will probably come up in a search under Civil Air Patrol, as I asked this back then.

Edited April 26, 2011 by David Andrews

[Guest Tom Scully]

....What evidence does Ed Haslam offer that a particle accelerator could have caused Sherman's death? Can any of his supporters answer that simple question?

Haslam's critics are not obligated to "demonstrate that a particular kind of LINAC was most likely not available in NOLA in 1963."

It is incumbent on Haslam to demonstrate that there likely was one. Or as Haslam puts it:

And it put new emphasis on our question: Did Mary Sherman have access to a linear particle accelerator?

I had fairly good personal information that there was at least one linear accelerator in New Orleans in the 1960s: The Jesuit priest who taught physics in 1968 confided to our class that there was a linear accelerator being used 'for research at a medical facility in New Orleans.'

Although the linear accelerator is one of the linchpins of his book, Haslam doesn't bother to give the reader any more details of that encounter.

What did the priest say about the accelerator? Where was it located? What kind of research was it used for? What was the teacher's name? The careful reader is left wondering if Haslam just made it up.

Why didn't Haslam attempt to look his teacher up? Did he attempt to find any of the faculty that might have worked with that teacher?

Did Haslam attempt to find any of his classmates? Even if unsuccessful, he could have mentioned such attempts in his footnotes.

Do people really believe that a LPA so top-secret that there is no evidence (no paper trail and no eyewitnesses) that it ever existed and yet, paradoxically, a high school teacher knew about it?

These are the types of questions Ed Haslam does not want to be asked and consistently has refused to answer in the almost five years since Dr Mary's Monkey was published.

These questions and scores more were posted repeatedly in more detail on the JVB threads. Haslam's biggest booster, Jim Fetzer didn't want to answer them either.

Too much of Haslam's book has a distinctly fictive feel. If people want to buy what he is selling, more power to them.

Michael, if the following is an indication, Haslam, and Baker for that matter, get plenty of help spreading what amounts to thinly or unsupported declarations. I inserted the pricing reporting I could find... an estimate in 1954 of $200k for a yet to be installed, pioneering medical therapy linac, a 1958, $500k after the fact cost report refering to that same 1954 installation, and a $1 million price tag at Yale in 1961. Contrast that with the information furnished by this blogger. Unskeptical supporters of Haslam only make themselves look similar to the way he looks, to me, anyway. Why are he and Baker held to almost no level of proof? Why don't these same people accept almost everything in the WCR? They seem incurious and accepting of what Haslam and Baker tell them, why is the WCR held by them to a much higher standard of proof? Where are the "5 or 6 checks"? Has the statute of limitations run out on the REAL alleged crime; the secret installation in NOLA of a vastly overpriced LINAC that killed Dr. Sherman?

Mr. Haslam is portrayed in a third party transcript making bold, unsubstantiated claims, and then a fan blogs a redistribution

of those claims, not only accepting Haslam's price claims and payment details without question, but also embellishing them with his own "stuff".

http://polioforever.wordpress.com/dr-marys-monkey/

(excerpts, part 1)

(min.2)

Haslam: Mary Sherman went to the University of Chicago…which is an organ of the Rockefeller Foundation – it’s where the neocon thinking came out of and it’s the headwaters of nuclear, biological and chemical research in America…

....(min.41)

So, Sarah Stewart is involved in this. Mary Sherman is involved in this. Dr. Ochsner is involved…[and] of course, they had a linear particle accelerator so they have to have an operator…and I’ve tracked down the person who I think that is. I’m not gonna say his name..because I’d like him to stay alive…and I tracked down the guy that built the linear particle accelerator in New Orleans…and he said that normally..there’d be something like a mortgage, a payment plan where you’d set it up and over years you’d pay off the huge expense of setting this thing up. He said the one in New Orleans was paid off within a week and he got six different checks from six different bank accounts in odd amounts of money.

(polioforever>>>N.P.Davis's biography of E.O.Lawrence demonstrates that huge amounts of private funding from wealthy donors was funneled into particle accelerator construction --with no info to go on, this scenario could just as well be a typical scheme a la Lawrence. One of the more intrepid linac builders was Lawrence's colleague and friend, Luis W. Alvarez**, who assumed many of Lawrence's Bohemian Club connections and patronage)

http://johndelanewilliams.blogspot.com/2010/11/dr.html

A linear particle accelerator (linac). Haslam obtained evidence from confidential sources that a linac had vaporized a technician; he theorized that Dr. Sherman was mortally wounded by such a machine.

The Machine

It was while reading Chapter 11 on “The Machine” that I became aware that my ’97 edition was different than the original ’95 version. The 1997 edition had a chapter similar to the one in his current book regarding Haslam’s investigation into the possibility of a linear accelerator being used in New Orleans. He did his research on the existence of the linear accelerator after the original work was published. While I was familiar with Haslam’s making new chapters available over the internet I wasn’t aware that his original book had quietly gone through revisions. This is possible with small runs of self-published books. This chapter is a focal chapter; it bears on the death of Dr. Mary Sherman, and the possibility that the underground laboratory was changing monkey viruses through mutation, using the linear accelerator, into deadly cancers, perhaps including the development of the AIDs virus.

This chapter is perhaps his most important contribution.

He began by hypothesizing that no normal fire could have completely burned the bones in Dr. Sherman’s right arm. Nor would electricity cause the damage done to her arm and right side and yet leave the rest of her body and clothing virtually unharmed. A linear accelerator might be able to accomplish this outcome, but at the time, there was no public knowledge that there had been a linear accelerator in New Orleans. Haslam interviewed the man who installed the accelerator in New Orleans, who couldn’t tell Haslam the location of the linear accelerator because of a secrecy agreement. Haslam concluded that the CIA must have funded the project, given the unusual payment process. In the late 1950’s and early 1960’s most research institutes would pay for an accelerator over a several-year period, as they came with price tags of upwards of $10 million. ...

http://www.google.com/search?q=first+linac+%22new+orleans%22&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:unofficial&client=firefox-a#q=linac+yale&hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:unofficial&tbm=nws&source=lnt&tbs=cdr:1,cd_min:1961,cd_max:1961&sa=X&ei=fEC2TfPgKajq0gGJ8qAG&ved=0CA8QpwUoBQ&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=e9cc54b50df4d35

Yale Installs New Million Dollar Linear Accelerator .

‎

Meriden Journal - Sep 11, 1961

New Haven. Sept. 11 —new million dollar electron linear 'acc

http://www.google.com/search?q=%22since+the+huge+%24500,000+linear%22&tbs=nws:1,ar:1&source=newspapers#hl=en&ds=n&sugexp=ldymls&pq=%22since%20the%20huge%20%24500%2C000%20linear%22&xhr=t&q=%22since+the+huge%22+linear&cp=16&pf=p&sclient=psy&tbs=ar:1&tbm=nws&source=hp&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=%22since+the+huge%22+linear&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=e9cc54b50df4d35&bs=1

New Cancer Technique Developed .

‎

News-Sentinel - Feb 1, 1958

... is produced by the hospital's linear accelerator the only machine of its ... in cancer therapy Since the huge 500000 linear accelerator was installed at ...

http://www.google.com/search?q=first+linac+%22new+orleans%22&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:unofficial&client=firefox-a#hl=en&ds=n&sugexp=gsqvh&pq=linear%201954%20esophageal&xhr=t&q=linear%20UhImann%20tumor%20chicago&cp=15&pf=p&sclient=psy&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US%3Aunofficial&biw=1320&bih=689&tbs=ar:1&tbm=nws&source=hp&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=linear+UhImann+tumor+chicago&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=e9cc54b50df4d35

Unveil $200,000 Cancer Weapon

‎

Pay-Per-View - Chicago Tribune - Jun 11, 1954

Dr Erich M4 UhImann di rector of thes tumor clinic said the machine may not ... and Dr Charles Hsiehseated chief physicist at control console of linear ac ... A machine also is being prepared for use by the University of Chicago at Ar

....The one in New Orleans was paid for with 5 or 6 checks paid by different companies and drawn from different banks, all within a week. Haslam eventually concluded that the linear accelerator was located in the Infectious Disease Laboratory of the U.S. Public Health Hospital in New Orleans.

Edited April 26, 2011 by Tom Scully

[Pamela Brown]

My question is how do you intend to deal with two people being documented in the same photo. Nothing needs to be 'suppressed'. Is it not up to you to determine how to weigh Ferrie's statement that he did not remember Lee Oswald when he in fact appeared in a photo with him and interacted with him at CAP? Was Ferrie trying to get off the hook or was he sincere?

I don't know what you mean by 'Baker attacking you through others'. I have criticized your perspective on Ferrie since I first read your posts. How do you weigh and evaluate people being in proximity and yet supposedly having nothing to do with each other?

As far as Ferrie's connection, if any, to Dr. Sherman, I get the impression you have no curiousity about that at all, despite the fact that Ferrie had an interest in cancer, did have mice at one time, and was in possession of a treatise on cancer when he died. Are these all just curious coincidences that we will not look at, hear of, or speak about?

Is there a conflict between Ferrie and Oswald being seen in a photograph eight years before the assassination and Ferrie saying he didn't remember him?

Attacking me through others: On Fetzer's blog, which will not accept my responses.

For God's sake, PLEASE stop saying things like I have no curiosity at all about a Ferrie-Sherman connection. OF COURSE I had curiosity about it. That's why I have spent time looking though documents and hunting down people to try to find traces of it, looking at the Haslam and Baker materials to see if I could find anything to confirm or deny them. It is insulting for you to make such an untrue statement.

And what research have you been doing on the Ferrie-Sherman relationship, or original research to copnfirm or deny the Haslam and Baker stories? You've been commenting on this matter for years. What research have you done to advance our knowledge?

Perhaps what is missing is intellectual curiosity. If you are perfectly comfortable with Ferrie appearing in a photo with Lee Oswald and then claiming he doesn't remember him, that might be the case. It probably hasn't occurred to you that Ferrie could have been making a pragmatic statement to distance himself from Lee Oswald when he did know him.

I find it puzzling that you claim to have thoroughly researched a possible connection between Ferrie and Dr. Sherman and yet have found not one shred of possible connection to at least weigh and evaluate. Why are you insulted by constructive criticism?

The WC had no curiosity either in anything that might point to conspiracy. I am not saying I think you are suppressing anything, just that you don't seem to care. I hope I am mistaken.

[Stephen Roy]

My question is how do you intend to deal with two people being documented in the same photo. Nothing needs to be 'suppressed'. Is it not up to you to determine how to weigh Ferrie's statement that he did not remember Lee Oswald when he in fact appeared in a photo with him and interacted with him at CAP? Was Ferrie trying to get off the hook or was he sincere?

I don't know what you mean by 'Baker attacking you through others'. I have criticized your perspective on Ferrie since I first read your posts. How do you weigh and evaluate people being in proximity and yet supposedly having nothing to do with each other?

As far as Ferrie's connection, if any, to Dr. Sherman, I get the impression you have no curiousity about that at all, despite the fact that Ferrie had an interest in cancer, did have mice at one time, and was in possession of a treatise on cancer when he died. Are these all just curious coincidences that we will not look at, hear of, or speak about?

Is there a conflict between Ferrie and Oswald being seen in a photograph eight years before the assassination and Ferrie saying he didn't remember him?

Attacking me through others: On Fetzer's blog, which will not accept my responses.

For God's sake, PLEASE stop saying things like I have no curiosity at all about a Ferrie-Sherman connection. OF COURSE I had curiosity about it. That's why I have spent time looking though documents and hunting down people to try to find traces of it, looking at the Haslam and Baker materials to see if I could find anything to confirm or deny them. It is insulting for you to make such an untrue statement.

And what research have you been doing on the Ferrie-Sherman relationship, or original research to copnfirm or deny the Haslam and Baker stories? You've been commenting on this matter for years. What research have you done to advance our knowledge?

Perhaps what is missing is intellectual curiosity. If you are perfectly comfortable with Ferrie appearing in a photo with Lee Oswald and then claiming he doesn't remember him, that might be the case. It probably hasn't occurred to you that Ferrie could have been making a pragmatic statement to distance himself from Lee Oswald when he did know him.

I find it puzzling that you claim to have thoroughly researched a possible connection between Ferrie and Dr. Sherman and yet have found not one shred of possible connection to at least weigh and evaluate. Why are you insulted by constructive criticism?

The WC had no curiosity either in anything that might point to conspiracy. I am not saying I think you are suppressing anything, just that you don't seem to care. I hope I am mistaken.

OF COURSE I've considered that Ferrie might have been lying.

Sherman: I've pored through thousands of pages of documents and found no trace of her or anyone like her in the Ferrie story. I have asked all of the surviving people I could find who knew Ferrie (some friends, some not) if Sherman or anyone like her shows up in the Ferrie story, and none does.

Do you see how insulting you are being?? You suggest that I'm "missing...intellectual curiosity," that I'm "perfectly comfortable" with things, that obvious things probably haven't occurred to me, that you "find it puzzling" that I CLAIM to have researched something, suggesting that it is a false claim. This is constructive criticism? Then you have the nerve to compare me to the Warren Commission and say I "just don't seem to care." How rude and insulting. Have you done any primary research on this matter?

I'm saying I HAVE done primary research, and I've been unable to establish any kind of relationship between them. YET. That's it. That's all I'm saying. I, one person, have not found anything to establish the relationship. I am not making any claims that something did happen; I'm just saying that I can't find evidence that it did happen. No, I am not convinced by the Haslam and Baker books. But I'm just one person. What does it matter what I think?? Why do you find it necessary to try to pre-emptively attack my integrity? Is Baker behind this?

If I am missing any evidence that Ferrie worked with Sherman or Baker, tell me what you have found. It might change my OPINION.

Edited April 26, 2011 by Stephen Roy

[Stephen Roy]

Stephen, just a Ferrie-tangential question: in 1963, were there Civil Air Patrol cadet uniforms?

Prior to reaching Houston Street, the Dallas motorcade was interrupted when a teenage male wearing a uniform ran out in the street. Secret Service subdued him. A suspected weapon may have been involved - but I may be in error there.

It's in a thread from c. 2006 on EdForum. It will probably come up in a search under Civil Air Patrol, as I asked this back then.

Wow, bear with me while I recover from my tirade in my post above...

Yes, there were uniforms. Most CAP cadets wore them, but some did not (in the New Orleans and Moisant Squadrons. I'm not sure how it was in other states, but I think most wore uniforms.

[Pamela Brown]

My question is how do you intend to deal with two people being documented in the same photo. Nothing needs to be 'suppressed'. Is it not up to you to determine how to weigh Ferrie's statement that he did not remember Lee Oswald when he in fact appeared in a photo with him and interacted with him at CAP? Was Ferrie trying to get off the hook or was he sincere?

I don't know what you mean by 'Baker attacking you through others'. I have criticized your perspective on Ferrie since I first read your posts. How do you weigh and evaluate people being in proximity and yet supposedly having nothing to do with each other?

As far as Ferrie's connection, if any, to Dr. Sherman, I get the impression you have no curiousity about that at all, despite the fact that Ferrie had an interest in cancer, did have mice at one time, and was in possession of a treatise on cancer when he died. Are these all just curious coincidences that we will not look at, hear of, or speak about?

Is there a conflict between Ferrie and Oswald being seen in a photograph eight years before the assassination and Ferrie saying he didn't remember him?

Attacking me through others: On Fetzer's blog, which will not accept my responses.

For God's sake, PLEASE stop saying things like I have no curiosity at all about a Ferrie-Sherman connection. OF COURSE I had curiosity about it. That's why I have spent time looking though documents and hunting down people to try to find traces of it, looking at the Haslam and Baker materials to see if I could find anything to confirm or deny them. It is insulting for you to make such an untrue statement.

And what research have you been doing on the Ferrie-Sherman relationship, or original research to copnfirm or deny the Haslam and Baker stories? You've been commenting on this matter for years. What research have you done to advance our knowledge?

Perhaps what is missing is intellectual curiosity. If you are perfectly comfortable with Ferrie appearing in a photo with Lee Oswald and then claiming he doesn't remember him, that might be the case. It probably hasn't occurred to you that Ferrie could have been making a pragmatic statement to distance himself from Lee Oswald when he did know him.

I find it puzzling that you claim to have thoroughly researched a possible connection between Ferrie and Dr. Sherman and yet have found not one shred of possible connection to at least weigh and evaluate. Why are you insulted by constructive criticism?

The WC had no curiosity either in anything that might point to conspiracy. I am not saying I think you are suppressing anything, just that you don't seem to care. I hope I am mistaken.

OF COURSE I've considered that Ferrie might have been lying.

Sherman: I've pored through thousands of pages of documents and found no trace of her or anyone like her in the Ferrie story. I have asked all of the surviving people I could find who knew Ferrie (some friends, some not) if Sherman or anyone like her shows up in the Ferrie story, and none does.

Do you see how insulting you are being?? You suggest that I'm "missing...intellectual curiosity," that I'm "perfectly comfortable" with things, that obvious things probably haven't occurred to me, that you "find it puzzling" that I CLAIM to have researched something, suggesting that it is a false claim. This is constructive criticism? Then you have the nerve to compare me to the Warren Commission and say I "just don't seem to care." How rude and insulting. Have you done any primary research on this matter?

I'm saying I HAVE done primary research, and I've been unable to establish any kind of relationship between them. YET. That's it. That's all I'm saying. I, one person, have not found anything to establish the relationship. I am not making any claims that something did happen; I'm just saying that I can't find evidence that it did happen. No, I am not convinced by the Haslam and Baker books. But I'm just one person. What does it matter what I think?? Why do you find it necessary to try to pre-emptively attack my integrity? Is Baker behind this?

If I am missing any evidence that Ferrie worked with Sherman or Baker, tell me what you have found. It might change my OPINION.

You repeately use the term 'insulting', as though you were taking my statements personally, rather than as constructive criticism. What I am attempting to define is a mindset that tends to look away from possible connections rather than embrace it, and I sincerely hope that you do not have it. That you are unable to see any validity to my comparing this mindset to that of the WC is somewhat puzzling. Are you able to perceive how the WC continually walked through the raindrops, refusing to follow any of the leads that might have lead to conspiracy? I hope you are. Another example would be Jean Davison's book OSWALDS GAME, where she opens numerous doors to conspiracy and refuses to walk through a single one.

However, in this post you are sharing the process by which you came to your conclusions (at least for the present time) and that is very persuasive. Definition of the process you use does not always come through in your posts, or I am not able to see it.

You are correct that I am unable to draw conclusions of my own until I have done my own serious research in these areas, and it is not my intention to give any impression to the contrary.

Edited April 27, 2011 by Pamela Brown

[Michael Hogan]

Stephen, I would be interested in your comments on this post.

The Real New Orleans and Judyth Vary Baker

A research report by Robert G. Vernon

August 28, 2004

The internet newsgroups have been diluted lately with the ramblings for and against a woman called Judyth Vary Baker and her claims that she “knew and loved Lee Harvey Oswald.” She claims to have had prior knowledge of the death of JFK and she was recently featured on a British documentary by Nigel Turner. She says a book is coming out on her.

While some of the top JFK researchers and also major US media have denounced the lady as being “delusional”, I believe there is much more to her story than meets the eye. Allow me to explain:

When Judyth’s incredible story first surfaced, I’m not sure of the exact date but I believe it was 1999 or earlier, I called Layton Martens, an old friend of mine from New Orleans. Some of the JFK researchers will recall Layton as being involved with David Ferrie back in the 1960s. Layton was also branded as a “homosexual,” which was highly insulting to him and he was ready to sue the people that branded him as such. To my knowledge, Layton was not a homosexual. Layton passed away on March 18, 2000, a few months after I had last spoken to him. I had met his wife once in the 80s at Layton’s French Quarter apartment on Bourbon Street, but I have never seen her or talked to her since. I think he has a brother but I don’t know him.

I knew Layton extremely well. He and I worked together on the Louisiana Music Association, the Louisiana Music Commission and on several recording projects he did for the Spirit of New Orleans Brass Band. I mixed one of the brass band albums for him at a tiny little studio in New Orleans in the mid 1980s. Layton was also an accomplished actor and radio personality in New Orleans. He appeared in many movies including Oliver Stone’s “JFK.”

I worked with and knew Layton for years before I learned about his friendship with David Ferrie and that he had been interviewed by New Orleans District Attorney Jim Garrison back in the 60s. In 1993, I began to communicate with him about the JFK assassination and his knowledge of it, if any.

Because we were longtime friends (over 25 years), he slowly began to open up to me and he laid out a tremendous amount of knowledge before me from 1993 until he died.

Some of the things that I learned from Layton are:

Layton was in the Civil Air Patrol and that he was closely associated with David Ferrie until Ferrie’s death in 1967. He and Ferrie were good friends. Ferrie wanted to marry Layton’s mother. He told me about Ferrie “dabbling” with mice and how the guy thought he could find a cure for cancer by mixing drug store bought chemicals together and injecting them into the mice. Layton laughed about this and told me he was amazed that Ferrie even had an interest in cancer for Ferrie had no training or background in science at all. Layton told me that he felt sorry for the mice because all Ferrie was really doing was making them “sick.”

When I last spoke to Layton a few months before his death, I asked Layton if he knew a Judyth Vary Baker. He said he did not. I asked Layton if he had ever heard her name before and specifically if Ferrie had ever mentioned her. He thought for a while and told me no. I asked him if it was possible that Ferrie could have known this lady without Layton’s knowledge. He told me that anything was possible but that he doubted it because he and Ferrie were very close and that he (Layton) had known all of Ferrie’s friends, the men and the women. I asked Layton if Ferrie knew or had ever mentioned Lee Harvey Oswald. Layton told me the same thing that he told the producers of Frontline, and that is Ferrie never mentioned Oswald to him. Layton did tell me that he had been shown a picture of Ferrie and Oswald standing in a line at a Civil Air Patrol training event but he was sure they didn’t know each other for Layton felt that if Ferrie had of known Oswald in the 69s, that Layton would have known him, too.

I asked Layton if Ferrie was involved with Dr. Oschner for it is common knowledge that Garrison had targeted Oschner with regard to possible involvement in the JFK hit. Layton told me that Ferrie hated Oschner but he was not sure why. He told me it had something to do with Oschner messing up a deal that involved a United Fruit Company or something of that nature. Layton wasn’t clear what had happened. I asked him why he knew Ferrie hated Oschner and Layton gave me a long list of New Orleans people that Ferrie hated and always talked bad about, according to Layton. The list was massive, maybe 10 or 11 names and the only names I can recall were Mayor Morrison, Oschner, and Jake DiMaggio (I knew Jake, too). There were other names he mentioned that I did not recognize and do not recall.

I asked Layton if he had ever heard of or known Svare Forsland. My reason for this is that Forsland had told me in the late 1980s that Garrison and Clay Shaw had gotten into an argument and a fist fight over a young boy at the New Orleans Athletic Club in the 1960s and that was why Garrison had indicted Shaw. Layton had no knowledge of this event and, as I do, doubted it ever happened.

As Judyth Baker’s story heated up and more and more stuff began to surface on her, I tried to call Layton again and that is when I found out Layton had died.

A couple of years later, in the fall of 2002, I had Judyth Baker’s story pushed on me by a former associate, Wim Dankbaar. I told the man I wanted nothing to do with her but he insisted that I look at her story. I reluctantly agreed. After catching her in falsehood after falsehood, and my posts on this are on JFK related newsgroups throughout the world, I refused to allow her taped interview to be used in a program I was producing at the time.

But it goes much deeper than that. You see, I’m from Louisiana, born and raised there and there is not much I don’t know about Louisiana and New Orleans particularly from the years 1960 through 1990, the year I moved away. I also know the Mafia in New Orleans. Yes, I met Carlos Marcello and I knew him, not well, but I knew him and talked with him. I also knew his brother Joe and not just from him owning the nightclub by the Lake but because Joe and I were both dating a couple of Playboy bunnies that lived in Fat City (Metairie, La) in the mid 1960s. Mr. Joe and I used to “bump bellies” in the hallway when he was coming and going as was I (no pun intended). We talked over coffee many mornings. I saw him again in later years when he ran Lenfant’s the club by the lake that I mentioned. I also knew and know now Sammy and “Little Vincent” Marcello and I have met and briefly talked with little Carlos and peter Marcello but I do not know them. There are also lesser known “families” in New Orleans and I know many of them too. I won’t name any names for these folks are still alive and kicking. Let me get to the point: No one that I know in the New Orleans “family” community knows of or has ever heard of Judyth Vary Baker. If they had, I would know. I put “the word out.” Nothing came back.

A few days ago, I learned that this Baker woman was making claims about somehow being involved in the Edwin Edwards trial down in Baton Rouge back in 2000. I was amazed to find this out for I was not aware of it before. Not only do I know Edwin Edwards personally but I also know every single member of his family. I also know every single one of his lawyers. I called several of them over the past week. Not one of them – repeat NOT ONE - had any knowledge about a Judyth Vary Baker.

So what do we have here? A delusional woman? Possibly, I’m not a shrink so I don’t know, but I think there is more to her story. I believe she has perpetrated a hoax for money. Her “evidence” is scant, if any. Nothing in her story is very original and can all be found in books and on the Internet. The people she surrounds herself with, excluding a Howard Platzman and a Martin Shackleford, neither of whom have I met or do I know, are basically profiteers and have made no secret of it. I do think Platzman and Shackleford truly believe the lady but that’s their prerogative. I, too, have been fooled and duped before by people making claims about the JFK hit so I can understand.

But what I understand more than anything is that when it comes to people in New Orleans that are “in the know” and that have been “in the know” for 50 years, there is no one that knows or has ever heard of Judyth Vary Baker, even Dr. John Oschner who worked side by side with his father that Judyth claims to have worked for. For you see, Dr. Oschner has nothing to hide, there is no reason for him to lie. It is common knowledge in New Orleans of the roles his Dad and their work have played over the years, in cancer research, in CIA and government related activities, etc.

Dr. Oschner told me personally that he had never heard of her.

I wish that I had never heard of her either.

A note to Judyth Vary Baker: feel free to make any comments you wish regarding this document.

Robert G. Vernon has been in the entertainment industry for 51 years. He is a Billboard chart producer of music and a winner of the ACE Award for Fats Domino and Friends, the most watched special in Cinemax history. Vernon was in charge of media and a member of the investigative team that busted Jimmy Swaggart. He is currently producing a program for video called “JFK: HOAXES” and it will be made available to broadcasters in November of 2004.

Contact: bobkat2000@comcast.net

[Guest Tom Scully]

My opinion is that LHO is probably inserted in the picnic photo. Its provenance is unknown.

Jack

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/oswald/glimpse/ferrie.html

FRONTLINE obtained this photograph from John B. Ciravolo, Jr., of New Orleans. Ciravolo was also a C.A.P. member in 1955 and says he was in the same unit with Oswald and was standing right in front of him in the photo. Ciravolo identified David Ferrie, while former C.A.P. cadet Tony Atzenhoffer, also of New Orleans, identified Oswald and Ferrie in the photograph, and Colin Hammer, who says he served with both men in the C.A.P., also identified both in the photograph.

FRONTLINE located the photographer, Chuck Frances, who says he took the picture for the C.A.P. Francis also said that when he was interviewed by the FBI, he told them Oswald and Ferrie knew each other, but he did not tell them about the photograph. The executor of Ferrie's estate, as well as Ferrie's godson, also picked out Ferrie.

After the Kennedy assassination, David Ferrie told investigators he never knew Lee Oswald. "I never heard David Ferrie mention Lee Harvey Oswald," said Layton Martens, a former C.A.P. Cadet and a close friend to Ferrie until Ferrie's death in 1967.

But when FRONTLINE showed Martens the photograph, he identified Ferrie. "It does indicate the possibity of an associaton," said Martens, "but if and to what extent is another question. Of course we've all been photographed with people, and we could be presented with photographs later and asked, 'Well, do you know this person? Obviously, you must because you've been photographed with them.' Well no, it's just a photograph, and I don't know that person. It's just someone who happened to be in the picture."

"As dramatic as the discovery of this photograph is after thirty years," says Michael Sullivan, FRONTLINE executive producer for special projects, "one should be cautious in ascribing its meaning. The photograph does give much support to the eyewitnesses who say they saw Ferrie and Oswald together in the C.A.P., and it makes Ferrie's denials that he ever knew Oswald less credible. But it does not prove that the two men were with each other in 1963, nor that they were involved in a conspiracy to kill the president."