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Guest James H. Fetzer

Michael,

Not to put too fine a point on it, but Ed gave me a two-and-a-half hour interview, during which I ask and he answered

many questions about Judyth and about ME & LEE. So I think you are being just the least bit uncharitable about him. I

note that the link I gave, http://radiofetzer.blogspot.com, did not work because of the period at the end, which made

it malfunction. Sorry about that. I am glad you fixed the problem on your own. Did you find the interview of interest?

This was my second with him, of course, where the earlier interview focused on DR. MARY'S MONKEY. I find him to

be extremely intelligent and self-disciplined and dedicated to unearthing the truth about what happened in New Orleans.

By the way, I don't claim to know all there is to know about Judyth, much less Lee. I am finding this fascinating stuff,

which, in my view, fills in many of the blanks in our knowledge of Lee's activities in New Orleans. In my opinion, the

love affair is incidental to what we learn here (1) in humanizing (and thus offsetting) the demonization of the alleged

assassin, (2) in revealing the existence of a project to develop a bio-weapon for use against Castro, which appears to

have been used on Jack Ruby, and (3) in exposing methods and techniques used by the agency in conducting covert

research activities in ways that would not draw the attention of the public or others who might want to confront them.

Jim

I would suggest that, while it may be helpful to ask yourself all the questions posed by Michael Hogan, it would be much more helpful just to read the book first. What are the attackers so afraid of? It's as though people can't make an objective decision on their own. Read, compare and think for yourselves.

1) Two of the most visible and vocal proponents of Judyth Baker's story have been Ed Haslam and Jim Fetzer. Taking issue with,

or asking questions about what they write and say does not ipso facto constitute an attack on Judyth Baker.

2) During the lengthy Exile thread started by Jim Fetzer, readers were exposed to research, information, evidence, and arguments

from all different angles. Many researchers and members weighed in with their thoughts and opinions. Even Judyth Baker, through Jim Fetzer,

was an active participant in that thread. There is Dr Mary's Monkey, Judyth Baker's first book, and websites that convey the latest information;

Haslam has a website, Judyth Baker has a website; Jim Fetzer has a blog. There are tons of interviews on YouTube and elsewhere. There has been

no shortage of information that allows people to read, compare, and think for themselves, as Linda puts it. If someone has not read Judyth

Baker's new book, they are not by default disqualified from having an informed opinion.

3) Jim Fetzer and Dean Hartwell, two of Judyth Baker's most ardent and constant supporters, were the first respondents on this new thread. They voiced

some of the reasons they support Judyth's story. By and large, they seem to be the same reasons given previously. I would like to hear them explain

in more detail how they believe Judyth's new book is a game changer (or mind changer for that matter) as it pertains to her alleged love affair with

Lee Oswald. I have read their Amazon reviews of Me & Lee.

And of course Ed Haslam has constantly declined to answer questions about JVB, repeatedly explaining that he wanted to wait for her new book to be released.

It will be interesting to see if Haslam becomes more active in his participation.

4) For a myriad of reasons, the fact remains that many people do not believe Judyth Baker's story about her relationship with Lee Oswald.

It is not unreasonable to understand that some of those people may be likely to have residual anger towards someone whom they feel has repeatedly

and intimately interjected herself fraudulently into the history of this controversial and still highly-charged murder case.

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Guest Robert Morrow

The following is worth repeating. It appears the intelligence agencies were playing disinfo games with regards to Judy Vary Baker a LONG time ago:

Fetzer: "I find the whole "impostor" aspect extremely interesting, since whoever set her up had gone to great lengths to create the impression that she was

Judyth Vary Baker by simulating her background and her interests, which not only implies detailed knowledge of the real Judyth but a non-trivial effort to convince others, perhaps especially Ed, that she was the real Judyth. I find this to be a striking indication that Judyth REALLY WAS THERE and that she REALLY KNEW LEE. I say that because it would appear to have been the purpose of this charade to misinform Ed about her knowledge of Lee."

I think that Judy Vary Baker is a key witness to TRUTH in the JFK assassination. That does NOT mean I believe everything she says. But I do believe she had an affair with and fell in love with LHO in the summer of 1963. And I do believe she was deep into off the books cancer research for the CIA, in their attempts to kill Castro.

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I would suggest that, while it may be helpful to ask yourself all the questions posed by Michael Hogan, it would be much more helpful just to read the book first. What are the attackers so afraid of? It's as though people can't make an objective decision on their own. Read, compare and think for yourselves.

3) Jim Fetzer and Dean Hartwell, two of Judyth Baker's most ardent and constant supporters, were the first respondents on this new thread. They voiced

some of the reasons they support Judyth's story. By and large, they seem to be the same reasons given previously. I would like to hear them explain

in more detail how they believe Judyth's new book is a game changer (or mind changer for that matter) as it pertains to her alleged love affair with

Lee Oswald. I have read their Amazon reviews of Me & Lee.

Hi Michael,

The book confirmed my belief in Judyth's story so I can't say it changed my mind. I am impressed with it's internal consistency. Judyth recounts her life in a manner I would expect one who is recalling their past. She remembers people who made an impression on her, she talks of how she felt when events took place and she discusses places she went.

I especially felt confirmation of her story when I connected her recollections to other facets of the JFK tragedy. She quotes Oswald as speaking favorably of the President and as being ardently anti-Castro. She explains his route to Mexico and confirms his trip there in a way rarely described before and yet not contradictory to facts. She also explains that Oswald could drive and had a TX driver's license, which is also well supported.

Michael, like all of us, you have read or will read this book through your own prism of how you perceive Judyth's credibility. Not a problem. I am interested in your thoughts on the book.

Does it elaborate on the Creative Writing course she took? I remember from ten years ago that was part of her early story.

Jack

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The following is worth repeating. It appears the intelligence agencies were playing disinfo games with regards to Judy Vary Baker a LONG time ago:

Fetzer: "I find the whole "impostor" aspect extremely interesting, since whoever set her up had gone to great lengths to create the impression that she was

Judyth Vary Baker by simulating her background and her interests, which not only implies detailed knowledge of the real Judyth but a non-trivial effort to convince others, perhaps especially Ed, that she was the real Judyth. I find this to be a striking indication that Judyth REALLY WAS THERE and that she REALLY KNEW LEE. I say that because it would appear to have been the purpose of this charade to misinform Ed about her knowledge of Lee."

I think that Judy Vary Baker is a key witness to TRUTH in the JFK assassination. That does NOT mean I believe everything she says. But I do believe she had an affair with and fell in love with LHO in the summer of 1963. And I do believe she was deep into off the books cancer research for the CIA, in their attempts to kill Castro.

Most researchers like to have two separate independent sources of information

so that one confirms the other.

The SOLE source of the story about a SECOND JUDYTH BAKER is Ed Haslam.

Haslam acknowledges that his father was a Commander in the US Navy, and

was a medical doctor associated with the radical right wing Oschner Medical

Group, which likely had CIA connections. He acknowledges that his investigations

were to make clear in his own mind that his father was innocent of any part

of the creation of the AIDS or similar viruses. Much of his investigation (and

books) is supposition and deduction, like a detective story. I have no conclusion

nor supposition about Haslam's motivation, but I suggest caution in relying

on a single source for information from someone whose investigation may

represent a bias of some sort, like clearing his father from suspicion.

Meeting someone with a similar name is not uncommon. One of my

neighbors is a dentist named Bill Hanna. Hanna is not as common a name

as Baker. But a by-lined writer for the Fort Worth Star-Telegram is named Bill

Hanna also. They are not related. I am a Fort Worth artist named Jack White.

There is a famed Texas western artist named Jack White. I am frequently

mistaken for him. Someone with the same name is not automatically a

CIA plant. Stories like the 2 JVBs are worth considering, but consideration

does not automatically give authenticity.

Jack

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The following is worth repeating. It appears the intelligence agencies were playing disinfo games with regards to Judy Vary Baker a LONG time ago:

Fetzer: "I find the whole "impostor" aspect extremely interesting, since whoever set her up had gone to great lengths to create the impression that she was

Judyth Vary Baker by simulating her background and her interests, which not only implies detailed knowledge of the real Judyth but a non-trivial effort to convince others, perhaps especially Ed, that she was the real Judyth. I find this to be a striking indication that Judyth REALLY WAS THERE and that she REALLY KNEW LEE. I say that because it would appear to have been the purpose of this charade to misinform Ed about her knowledge of Lee."

I think that Judy Vary Baker is a key witness to TRUTH in the JFK assassination. That does NOT mean I believe everything she says. But I do believe she had an affair with and fell in love with LHO in the summer of 1963. And I do believe she was deep into off the books cancer research for the CIA, in their attempts to kill Castro.

Most researchers like to have two separate independent sources of information

so that one confirms the other.

The SOLE source of the story about a SECOND JUDYTH BAKER is Ed Haslam.

Haslam acknowledges that his father was a Commander in the US Navy, and

was a medical doctor associated with the radical right wing Oschner Medical

Group, which likely had CIA connections. He acknowledges that his investigations

were to make clear in his own mind that his father was innocent of any part

of the creation of the AIDS or similar viruses. Much of his investigation (and

books) is supposition and deduction, like a detective story. I have no conclusion

nor supposition about Haslam's motivation, but I suggest caution in relying

on a single source for information from someone whose investigation may

represent a bias of some sort, like clearing his father from suspicion.

Meeting someone with a similar name is not uncommon. One of my

neighbors is a dentist named Bill Hanna. Hanna is not as common a name

as Baker. But a by-lined writer for the Fort Worth Star-Telegram is named Bill

Hanna also. They are not related. I am a Fort Worth artist named Jack White.

There is a famed Texas western artist named Jack White. I am frequently

mistaken for him. Someone with the same name is not automatically a

CIA plant. Stories like the 2 JVBs are worth considering, but consideration

does not automatically give authenticity.

Jack

Good points, and well said, Jack. I think it is also very important to remember that the girl Haslam met at the party in the 70's did not carry ANY name until after Haslam met Judyth Vary Baker. Haslam then became convinced that the name had been Judy, Judy Baker ... and then Judyth Vary Baker.

Bests,

Barb :-)

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I think that Judy Vary Baker is a key witness to TRUTH in the JFK assassination. That does NOT mean I believe everything she says. But I do believe she had an affair with and fell in love with LHO in the summer of 1963. And I do believe she was deep into off the books cancer research for the CIA, in their attempts to kill Castro.

The 1967 Inspector General's report revealed all sorts of schemes and devices the CIA was involved in to take Castro out. Why do you think a cancer bio-weapon would be "off the books" yet assorted poisons, toxins and other failed attempts as reported in the IG report ... not be?

Thanks,

Barb :-)

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It is a mistake to equate intelligence, fluency, sincerity, education,

personality, charisma, knowledge or mastery of information with truth.

The most successful untruths are filled with known truths. The most

successful snake oil salesmen are charming conmen who hype

their tales with elements of truth which make deceit believable.

Jack

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Guest James H. Fetzer

Gary Mack has written to me asking that I remove the sentence about him,

since, on the basis of discussions between him and the author and publisher,

it has been removed from the original. So here is the article without it, which

included this in the original: "Close at their heels is Gary Mack, whose robust

six-figure salary at the Sixth Floor Museum in Dallas depends on defending

the so-called "sniper's nest" theory despite overwhelming new evidence that

Kennedy was assassinated by a bullet from the Grassy Knoll." He told me he

has never had a six-figure salary and does not make the director's decisions.

I took the occasion to write to him about the museum's policies as follows:

Gary,

Yes, I got it. I will do something about it. Since we are in contact, will The

6th Floor Museum be changing its policy about not carrying any assassination

books that contradict the official account, such as BEST EVIDENCE, BLOODY

TREASON, ASSASSINATION SCIENCE, MURDER IN DEALEY PLAZA, THE GREAT

ZAPRUDER FILM HOAX, INSIDE THE ARRB, JFK AND THE UNSPEAKABLE, and

LBJ: THE MASTERMIND OF JFK'S ASSASSINATION? I would be glad to know

that the museum is taking a more even-handed approach toward his death.

Best wishes,

Jim

Unsurprisingly, he wrote back that the books in the bookstore are evaluated

on the basis of "their accuracy and objectivity". But he assured me that they

are available for reading in their reading room. I find all of this nauseating.

http://www.thepeoplesvoice.org/TPV3/Voices.php/2010/10/28/after-wall-street-ii-oliver-stone-should

After Wall Street II Oliver Stone should do JFK II The last key witness has finally been found

October 28th' date=' 2010

Roland Michel Tremblay

The last key witness that Oliver Stone mentioned in the film "JFK" (1991), the one who could have solved and proved the conspiracy surrounding JFK's assassination, has finally been found. Her name is Judyth Vary Baker and her 606 page testimony titled "Me & Lee, How I came to know, love and lose Lee Harvey Oswald" has just been published at Trine Day Press. Jim Marrs, the long-time investigator and author of the New York Times bestseller "Crossfire: The Plot That Killed Kennedy", upon which the "JFK" film was based, asked in the afterword of Baker's book how she can still be alive today. Good question.

It has not been easy. Baker decided to talk after 36 years of frightened silence, but after being confronted with death threats she had to leave the United States. She returned to the US twice, only to flee overseas due to ongoing stalking, harassment and several hospitalizations caused by what Marrs termed "freak accidents." In 2007 she was accepted as a political asylum seeker in Europe, the first ever non-combatant American woman to succeed in gaining asylum seeker status in the world. She is still struggling with character assassination over the Internet by people intent on destroying her as a credible witness, but her book is out now, and it changes everything. So much so that Oliver Stone could finally do a final and less static version of his film. Instead of telling us about what might have happened, he could now show us what really happened in 1963 in New Orleans and Dallas.

What happened is far more impressive and sinister than anyone could have imagined. Beyond the facts that the death of JFK opened the way to more wars, such as in Vietnam, ostensibly to fight communism while enriching the war industry, with the Mafia free of Bobby Kennedy's pesky presence countering corruption, we now know there is now a whole new angle to the story. And it is perhaps more important and worrying than even the assassination of a beloved President. Behind it all was the development of a biological weapon capable of killing anyone by injecting virulent cancer cells. Any such murder would, of course, look like a natural death.

This is what Lee Harvey Oswald, a US government agent, was working on with Judyth Vary Baker in the summer of 1963 in New Orleans, along with David Ferrie, Dr. Mary Sherman, and Dr. Alton Ochsner from the Ochsner Clinic, with the government and the Mafia waiting in the wings. That fact alone warranted that many witnesses had to be eliminated. If you check carefully, two of these witnesses died of a powerful cancer that spread quickly, without detection, that death ensued soon after its diagnosis -- the assassin of Oswald, Jack Ruby, who claimed to have been injected with cancer cells, and Clay Shaw, the central figure in the Garrison trial in Stone's movie, "JFK", who died in Ochsner's Clinic and was buried within 24 hours. Part of the whole story had been previously published in another significant book -- "Dr. Mary's Monkey" -- written by Edward T. Haslam. "Dr. Mary's Monkey" has become an underground bestseller. Haslam, the son of a prominent New Orleans doctor, wrote the foreword to Baker's book.

The extraordinary story of Judyth Vary Baker certainly came as a surprise to all main investigators, who had never heard of her before, although there are actually many oblique references to her in the extant body of evidence, as well as living witnesses who have verified that she was Oswald's close companion and lover in the months before the JFK assassination. Some still insist she made it all up, while others have concocted see-through lies to discredit her, preferring to protect their own theories and book sales. Strikingly, after nearly 50 years, new evidence and witnesses such as Baker are still being largely ignored in favor of well-financed TV specials and YouTube presentations. Foremost in these efforts is Vincent Bugliosi, who received a million dollars for his book, "Reclaiming History", which supports the Warren Commission's findings, and Gerald Posner (recently indicted for blatant plagiarism). To this day, witnesses such as Baker are still not safe or free to talk, just like most significant classified information about the matter has still been kept from the public.

"How many authors do not dare have book signings?" Baker asked. "For my own safety, I'm unable to do so." Baker has turned down countless requests for interviews: in the past seven years since the History Channel presented Baker's story in a documentary ("The Love Affair"), only Dr. James Fetzer has managed to get an interview with her. Now that Baker's book has been published, it will become evident to all that no one could possibly make this up, especially when it answers and brings together all the pieces of a puzzle that so many have tried, unsuccessfully, to solve over the years. Those who read the book will also understand why so many witnesses died mysteriously, one by one, following the double assassination of JFK and Oswald, and why the various official investigations conducted were charged to convince the public that a demented lone nut -- Lee Harvey Oswald -- was Kennedy's assassin. If Jim Marrs, Edward T. Haslam, Fetzer and the producers of "The Love Affair" were convinced that Judyth Vary Baker was telling the truth, it was because she has told her story with striking candor, with a large amount of evidence supporting her testimony.

Judyth Vary Baker had only one wish when she was a young and promising lab researcher hired by Dr. Ochsner -- to discover a cure for cancer -- and everyone believed then that she could do it. She and her fellow research associates were led to believe that the New Orleans Project -- developing a biological weapon designed to assassinate Fidel Castro -- could have prevented the death of JFK and World War Three. Then, after Kennedy was killed, she was told to keep her mouth shut and to never again work in cancer research. But the little girl from Bradenton Florida still has up-to-date knowledge of the research being done today. "I still believe I could cure certain kinds of soft tissue cancers inexpensively," she says, "within five years, using modified bacteriophages." Bacteriophages are simple viruses that literally 'eat' bacteria, Baker explained, but they could be "genetically altered" to seek out certain cancers and literally eat them alive. "Bacteriophage therapy could also be applied to fight bacterial diseases such as tuberculosis," she said. "Resistance to antibiotics is becoming a problem that bacteriophage research could very possibly solve."

But Baker fears that as long as so much cancer research is financed by private pharmaceutical companies, that expensive chemotherapy will continue to be the center of research efforts, since bacteriophage therapy would be much cheaper and therefore less profitable. "We could have cured cancer decades ago," Baker insists. Because of the "profit factor," Baker believes that "if we ever develop an inexpensive cure for cancer, it will be due to independent research at universities, or in government-funded labs. An inexpensive treatment, such as one involving the direct use of bacteriophage, will not come from Big Pharma."

Me & Lee: How I Came to Know, Love and Lose Lee Harvey Oswald by Judyth Vary Baker (www.judythvarybaker.com) and Dr. Mary's Monkey by Edward T. Haslam (www.doctormarysmonkey.com) and Crossfire: The Plot That Killed Kennedy by Jim Marrs, offer the big picture --and finally link together -- all the major players in the conspiracy surrounding JFK's assassination. It is time for us to appreciate what transpired then and draw parallels as to what is happening today. Oliver Stone should produce "JFK II" so we can be aware and move on to real and tangible change and a durable peace. Such was, after all, the main dream of John F. Kennedy.

Edited by James H. Fetzer
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This subject has come up off the board, so FWIW...b

''is an email confidentiality notice legally binding'', there are several other sites also, basically saying about the same, thanks the first site, i believe is in the states, the second site in england...b

:blink:

http://www.expertlaw...ead.php?t=15429 hasEML = false;http://www.out-law.com/page-5536

Edited by Bernice Moore
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The following is worth repeating. It appears the intelligence agencies were playing disinfo games with regards to Judy Vary Baker a LONG time ago:

Fetzer: "I find the whole "impostor" aspect extremely interesting, since whoever set her up had gone to great lengths to create the impression that she was

Judyth Vary Baker by simulating her background and her interests, which not only implies detailed knowledge of the real Judyth but a non-trivial effort to convince others, perhaps especially Ed, that she was the real Judyth. I find this to be a striking indication that Judyth REALLY WAS THERE and that she REALLY KNEW LEE. I say that because it would appear to have been the purpose of this charade to misinform Ed about her knowledge of Lee."

I think that Judy Vary Baker is a key witness to TRUTH in the JFK assassination. That does NOT mean I believe everything she says. But I do believe she had an affair with and fell in love with LHO in the summer of 1963. And I do believe she was deep into off the books cancer research for the CIA, in their attempts to kill Castro.

Robert:

If you do not believe everything Judyth says, that must mean there are things that she says that you do not believe, therefore she is not telling the truth about some things she says. How do you discern what to believe and not to believe? Is it not suspicious to you that she has contradicted herself on so many points and that she has refused to be questioned by myself or Greg Burnham or such things as that she claims to have LHO's writing on abook but refuses to have it analyzed? It goes on and on. I am curious. How do you differentiate between what she is telling the truth about and what she is lying about? Normally, if a person is lying about something it is sufficient grounds to discount their entire story. Do you agree?

Best,

Doug Weldon

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It is a mistake to equate intelligence, fluency, sincerity, education,

personality, charisma, knowledge or mastery of information with truth.

The most successful untruths are filled with known truths. The most

successful snake oil salesmen are charming conmen who hype

their tales with elements of truth which make deceit believable.

Jack

As JFK himself once said:

"The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie -- deliberate,

contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive, and

unrealistic. Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the

discomfort of thought."

Bests,

Barb :-)

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Jim, If you listen to the Marrs interview to completion, Ed Haslam mentions the package coming from FedEx at the 52:30 mark.

He also says that he called Judyth Baker about one week after receiving the package of documents.

I have listened to your recent interview with Ed in its entirety; I was particulary interested in the last segment where you

touched on a few of the questions I have raised. I will offer my take on that as soon as I can find the appropriate time.

When you can find the time, please listen to the segment referenced above and let me know if my description

is accurate. It will be part of a larger point I will be making later. Thank you.

Michael,

During this part of the interview--and I AM embarrassed that I have not listened to it before!--Ed talks about

meeting the impostor "Judyth Vary Baker" in 1972 at a party, which seems to have been "set up" for them to

meet, but that it was not until the fall of 2000, when he received "a packet of material" from an national news

organization (we know to have been "60 Minutes"), which included her name and her phone number, that he

picked up the phone and called her. There is nothing about "FedEx" in this part of the tape, so, if that is part

of what he has told us, he does not offer that information at this point on tape. I find the whole "impostor" aspect

extremely interesting, since whoever set her up had gone to great lengths to create the impression that she was

Judyth Vary Baker by simulating her background and her interests, which not only implies detailed knowledge of

the real Judyth but a non-trivial effort to convince others, perhaps especially Ed, that she was the real Judyth. I

find this to be a striking indication that Judyth REALLY WAS THERE and that she REALLY KNEW LEE. I say that

because it would appear to have been the purpose of this charade to misinform Ed about her knowledge of Lee.

So, I would like to know why this part of the story, which you have reviewed many times, hasn't impressed you.

Jim

Michael,

You were correct. Ed wrote, "Referring to the real JVB, I first spoke to her by phone for several months

in late 2000. She did not accompany the 60M attorney who came to see me. After 60 minutes passed, we

met in the spring of 2001 in Bradenton. We met in the Central Library and went to Miller’s Restaurant to talk."

Jim

Jim, my question remains:

This post appeared on the Doug Horne thread. I've written extensively about Jim Marrs' interview with Ed Haslam

on the Exile thread. At about the 38 minute mark of this video, Ed Haslam describes getting a packet of materials

from 60 Minutes, delivered by FedEx. He opens it up, sees the name Judyth Vary Baker along with a phone number

for her. He describes picking up the phone and calling her.

Jim, based on this interview, exactly when did Ed Haslam call Judyth Baker?

I wasn't asking Ed Haslam. I've been down that road before on the Exile thread. I'm asking you to listen to the

appropriate part of the interview with Marrs and confirm to me that my description above is accurate. It will only

take you a few minutes. Thank you.

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The book confirmed my belief in Judyth's story so I can't say it changed my mind. I am impressed with it's internal consistency.

Dean Hartwell makes a positive comment about Judyth's "internal consistency" in telling her story. Many of us have long been familiar with Judyth's story, as she has herself written it in her first book, on blogs and websites, in letters and in many many posts on assorted newsgroups and forums over the last decade. Consistency, is, of course, extremely important .... not just within one letter, blog, post or book .... but overall given that she tells us this is a factual story.

How much "internal consistency" is, for one example,demonstrated in what she writes as the last telephone conversation she had with Oswald, the very last time she ever spoke to him.

In early 2000, Judyth was working on a section of a draft that included her last telephone conversation with Oswald. Here is the pertinent part of an email she sent to her team of supporters, and she attached a file of that section of the draft she had just worked on ... it included that last phone call. Note: All bold text bolded by me-bj.

QUOTE

Dear Howard and all:

I am resending the "end of line" realizing it isn't quite

finished – it doesn't have a goodbye, for example, from Lee, no

hang-up – I really couldn't go there....

.....File extracted: ENDofLINE.doc ...

...love from judyth [minor spelling errors corrected]

END QUOTE

Here is the quoted conversation Judyth included in her attachment .... note, I am only posting the actual conversation as she wrote it .... it is interrupted here and there in her text by long explanatory comments,that is just her writing style....and I am not including that text here. Anyone interested in reading the entire attachment can see it at: Judyth attachment 2000

QUOTE

Before the Silence Came: Lee’s Last Telephone Calls

Last section

=====================================================================

[......]

==============the next section will deal with the last two telephone calls====thanks.j

Last Phone Call, November 20th, 1963

“It’s me again,” he said.

“Oh, Lee!”

I couldn’t act the part I wanted to play of the light-hearted and encouraging lover. We were

both very down. A weight had settled upon us. I very well knew i might never hear his voice

directed to me again, nor would he hear my words of love. I felt like I was choking. It was a cool

afternoon, and he had called me back right away.

Because time was so short now, Lee told me there wouldn’t be another call from him unless he

reached Laredo.

“Lee,” I said slowly, “you didn’t say until. You said “unless.’”

“I apologize,” he answered. I heard him suck up his breath. We were both very close to tears.

Outside, it was sunset.

“You’ll go to Cancun,” Lee said. “You’ll stay in a fine hotel. I’ll be there — if they---”

We were both speechless.

“You know,” he said then, “if I don’t make it out— you have to go on with everything.”

“Oh, sure!” i said, bitterly. I told him that I would never allow anyone to replace him in my

heart.

“But promise me,” he said. “That you’ll have babies.”

“I don’t want to have babies with anyone but you.”

“Oh yes you will,” he answered. “You take home baby birds and feed them. So you have to

have babies. So promise me.”

I promised.

“How much can you say?” I asked him, because of course i wanted to know what he was up

against.

“I’ll be meeting tonight,” he said. “Two different places. Then I’ll go to bed and miss you.”

“And tomorrow?”

“Tomorrow, I’ll go say goodbye to Junie and Rachel and Marina....”

Lee took a gasp of air, as if he couldn’t breathe. Tears had started streaming down my cheeks

“Oh God, Lee!”

I could hear him crying. We were in the very depths of hell. I couldn’t see, I couldn’t even

stand. I leaned against the phone and cried, too.

“Just go!” I urged him. “Get out— it’s too late to help him.”

“Even if I wanted to, which I do not,” Lee said, his voice trembling, “I couldn’t. Not only me-

-they’d come after my family. They’d find you. You’d all die---”

What could i say? I knew it was true.

“You just remember ---,” Lee said, “David Atlee Phillips.”

“I won’t forget.”

“I’m going to get out alive,” Lee said, trying to choke back his emotions. “You’ll see---”

“Sure.”

“Juduffki--Minnie Mouse---” he said, and that was enough to get me almost into hysteria. He

was calling me those pet names of his, and I couldn’t take it.

“Just tell them you’re ill. Swallow a bunch of laxatives----”

Lee probably made a bitter, harsh laugh, I don’t know.

“They’d just get another gun in there to take the place of mine,” he told me. “If I stay, that

will be one less bullet aimed at Kennedy.”

As this sank in, he added, “Maybe i can still do something. They’re going to pin it on me

anyway.”

“I hate the human race,” I told him.

“Stop it,” he said, almost commandingly. “I can still do something. I might be able to fire a

warning shot. That’s what I intend to do.”

I was speechless with hope.

“The Secret Service will react,” Lee said. “The Chief might react. Even the driver---”

“Even the driver?” I repeated.

Lee told me that the driver’s habits had been studied, .....[more non-conversation prose]

When Lee said goodbye to me that day, he told me that he would be wearing the brown shirt

that I had bought for him......[more non conversation]

When Lee said goodbye to me, it was the last time i ever heard his voice,

But I would never forget that I promised to tell his story, so that his children would not have to

live in shame, and so that justice might be done. I have done what i could: I pray God bless it for

good.

Judyth Vary Baker (who kept the name “Baker” even after her divorce, to stay hidden, and who

originally planned to die, and let this story be told from the grave--but that would have been the

cowardly thing to do.).

END QUOTE

Contrast that Cancun/fine hotel part of the conversation with the final phone conversation as it appeared in her first book 6 years later (2006). From, LEE HARVEY OSWALD, The True Story of the Accused Assassin of President John F. Kennedy By His Lover; Judyth Vary Baker(2006) Volume 2, pages 620 - 626, "NOVEMBER 20: THE LAST PHONE CALL."

Page 622-625

QUOTE

"I would be instructed what to do next from there [Elgin AFB-bj]. I would end up somewhere on the Yucatan Peninsula, and would meet Lee - if he escaped."

"Oh, Lee," I mourned, "So you think you will be shot dead! But you're so smart, Lee. Surely you can save yourself, and we can make it to Mexico --" I hesitated. "They lied about Mexico?"

"Maybe all will be well," Lee said, calming himself. "If I still have people I can trust, Juduffki. They will still take us on to Mexico. But we'll have to lie low somewhere else. Remember how we talked about the Cayman Islands? I've sent some money ahead there. It's for you, if I die."

END QUOTE

In addition, there is an interesting addition ... a phone call 5 days earlier on November 15. In a section subtitled, THE PHONE CALL OF NOVEMBER 15, page 619, there is this exchange:

QUOTE

[LHO speaking:] "Just remember. One day soon, we'll be exploring those ruins together. We'll see Chichen-Itza. Then we'll go to a fine hotel - and get sick together!"

END QUOTE

Once, when the Cancun debate erupted on newsgroups after the original draft of the conversation appeared ... and it was pointed out that neither Cancun, nor any fine hotels, existed in that isolated deep jungle area at the time ... one poster said that there was a fine hotel near Chichen-Itza called the Mayaland, it was built in 1923. Chichen-Itza, some 110 miles from present day Cancun (via a present day road), is a destination for tourists to see the Mayan ruins there. The poster had visited Chichen-Itza some years earlier on her honeymoon and stayed at the Mayaland ... where she said she (and her husband as well, if I recall correctly) contracted food poisoning and was quite sick.

Now in Judyth's latest book, Me & Lee, the section, "The final conversation, November 20, 1963," (page 519) contains nothing about where they were going or what they wanted to see or do at all. No Cancun, no Mexico, no Yucatan Peninsula .... or Cayman Islands ... at all in that conversation.

And there is no conversation written for November 15 in Me & Lee .... but on most days leading up to the 20th, Judyth reports what Oswald was doing, who he met with, etc.

Also from this November 20, 1963 last phone call ... what time of day did he call?

In 2000 file attached to her email above:

"It was a cool afternoon, and he had called me back right away." And, "Outside, it was sunset."

First book,2006:

"I am almost certain that Lee called me between 11:00-11:30 pm my time. I originally remembered the call as having commenced at 10:00 or 10:30 pm, but now realize that my time in Gainesville, Florida was an hour ahead of Lee's time in Dallas, Texas."

Me & Lee, 2010:

"I waited a dark and anxious hour near the pay phone by the 7-11 store, and at 11:00 p.m., Dallas time, Lee called me apologizing...."

Also from the November 20, 1963 last phone call ... where was she when he called?

In the 2000 file attached to her email above:

"... I waited less than an hour at PenChem’s phone (I often worked overtime, and Robert would only pick me up when i called him, so I had time to wait for this call). My paycheck stubs from this time period show i was working an extra hour a day--mostly because i was working on Dave’s chemical projects — and also because I could get phone calls with nobody around at the payphone there,..."

First book, 2006:

"At this time Robert wasn't home (is anybody surprised?). He was studying for his GRE and for mid-term exams at the university library and student center. It was much safer in 1963 to walk to and from the local convenience store." And, "The highlight of my existence was a late night foray to a payphone, there to await HIS call. They were love calls. We did what we could to love each other this way: we would look at the moon together...."

Me & Lee, 2010:

"That night, Robert picked me up late from PenCHem, where I worked overtime on Wednesdays and Fridays. He dropped me off at our cottage, and then, as he'd been doing all week, went back to the University library to study (or whatever!). I knew he wouldn't return until at least 3:00 a.m. I waited a dark and anxious hour near the pay phone by the 7-11 store...."

Also from the last phone call, November 20, 1963 ... how long did the call last?

Also part of the 2000 email noted above:

"In one of my emails that you might have, i also described some

of the last phone call. it lasted a little shorter than the others,

probably forty-five minutes, I'd guess."

From the 2006 book:

"I estimate the call ended 1-1/2 to two hours later ...."

From Me & Lee, 2010:

"... and at 11:00 p.m., Dallas time, Lee called.........For the next hour and a half we talked our hearts out............"Goodbye, Juduffki. I love you," he said. Then he hung up the phone, and the silence began. It was around 2:30 A.M. as I walked back home alone ...."

That's a 2-1/2 hour call.

"Internal consistency"?

As I posted in post #28 of this thread, Judyth recently wrote a response to those asking how she could recount such details and conversations after so many years. She titled her response

"ME & LEE: HOW I CAME TO KNOW, LOVE AND

LOSE LEE HARVEY

OSWALD --AND WHY I DID

NOT FORGET HIS WORDS

by Judyth Vary Baker"

...which I quoted from in my post. The link to her account of how she worked at memorizing and preserving all of these things in her memory every November is here: ME AND LEE - AND WHY I DID NOT FORGET HIS WORDS

Bests,

Barb :-)

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I might look in the fiction section of the library some time, sounds quite a fanciful historical romance. But waiting for the next edition, as this is probably just another beta test, is prob a better way to spend time.

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Barb,

Nice digging in the "JVB archives". Not only is it fiction, but when looking at this stuff it's in fact pretty poor fiction. Overly dramatic and heartfelt. It still amazes me that anyone believes a word of what this woman says or writes.

John,

I agree, judging by history there will be nothing but betas - ever....Let's give the next beta a few years and it's a sure bet we will see new "facts", new conversations, new places - and we will as usual, be missing some of what she's now claiming.

We can take that to the bank.

Glenn V.

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