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Was JFK really waving?


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Truly.png

Can we assume that from Truly's perspective that he only thought it looked like the limo almost hit the curb? I ask because I don't know of anyone else who said this and none of the films I have seen seem to reflect this.

Bill

Edited by Bill Miller
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I mentioned on another thread that on YouTube you can see plenty of Euro road rallye clips showing spectator reaction (and delay of reaction) when they're expecting cars to round a curb where they're standing, but then find the cars coming, um. a bit too close. They're useful for comparison.

Edited by David Andrews
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Truly.png

Can we assume that from Truly's perspective that he only thought it looked like the limo almost hit the curb? I ask because I don't know of anyone else who said this and none of the films I have seen seem to reflect this.

Bill

Two Lee Forman photo's showing the concrete island seen in the Wiegman frame.

File006.jpg

http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/File003.jpg

http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/PDVD_668.jpg

Edited by Robin Unger
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Someone can check with Gary Mack, but I seem to recall him saying to me once that the limo could be seen in part during that turn and it stayed to the middle lane. I believe that we were discussing Truly's statement about the turn. Gary would be the best person to ask for it was a long time ago and I may not be remembering it correctly.

Bill

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Someone can check with Gary Mack, but I seem to recall him saying to me once that the limo could be seen in part during that turn and it stayed to the middle lane. I believe that we were discussing Truly's statement about the turn. Gary would be the best person to ask for it was a long time ago and I may not be remembering it correctly.

Bill

Dorman frame showing part of the Limo and follow up car during the turn.

D-229.jpg

Dorman frame showing the distance from the south side curb to the motorcycles.

D-265.jpg

Chris / Martin

It would be interesting exersise to try to overlay the Dorman frame showing the Limo & follow up car onto a scaled overhead of the Dealey plaza corner.

Note the motorcycle is siiting next to the white road stripe !

Edited by Robin Unger
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Telling everybody what they see and don't see is just not gonna cut it Duncan :D

Robert ... why not do something constructive and count the times you have told people what 'we' see and compare them to Duncan's ... I'm sure you have won that contest.

He balled his hand into a fist and it doesn't matter how much you try to call it something else, because no matter what you call it, JFK NEVER did that before. His action was totally unique and unlike anything he has ever been known to do before.

'Never did that before' ... and you draw that from what ...... the few seconds of clips you have viewed?

JFK was reacting to a gunshot then. You can hate me all you want to but you aren't going to change reality.

Wow ... JFK must have been a real piece of work to react to a gun shot and not do a thing to protect himself or his wife beside him as he continued on smiling and waving as he waited for another shot to be fired. And no - I won't hate you. Instead I will feel sorry for you for not being capable of thinking more logically. Can I assume that it was that same remarkable thinking that came up with the 'Greer did it' scenario!

Bill Miller

Bill, you previously acknowledged that you were aware that I stated that JFK, like everyone else, did not hear that shot and didn't realize that anyone was shooting at him.

Why do you now pretend that you didn't know that? Is it possible Bill, that you knew very well what I said but since you couldn't ridicule that, you pretended that I said something different?

And do you actually believe that JFK reacted in the past as he did in the Towner film??

Do you see him ball his hand into a fist as he was waving, in films or photos from 11/22/63 or during any other time in his life?? If so, when?

And if not, then why do you remain in denial about those reactions? The evidence tells us that he was reacting to a shot then and other evidence tells us that the shot came that third floor window in the Daltex building. The "rebuttals", claiming that there was a little man or a stack of boxes in the window are just ludicrous. They insult our intelligence.

The most powerful arguments for a shot during the Towner film and a sniper in that third floor window, is that there are no other plausible alternatives.

Here is the video again, Bill. In the unlikely event that you really don't get it, this presentation covers JFK's reaction to that shot in detail.

And this is a closeup of JFK's face during the same time that Tina was capturing his reactions.

jfkblowup.png

Edited by Robert Harris
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Duncan, please stop butting in and give Bill a fair chance to reply to my post.

Bill, you previously acknowledged that you were aware that I stated that JFK, like everyone else, did not hear that shot and didn't realize that anyone was shooting at him.

Why do you now pretend that you didn't know that? Is it possible Bill, that you knew very well what I said but since you couldn't ridicule that, you pretended that I said something different?

And do you actually believe that JFK reacted in the past as he did in the Towner film??

Do you see him ball his hand into a fist as he was waving, in films or photos from 11/22/63 or during any other time in his life?? If so, when?

And if not, then why do you remain in denial about those reactions? The evidence tells us that he was reacting to a shot then and other evidence tells us that the shot came that third floor window in the Daltex building. The "rebuttals", claiming that there was a little man or a stack of boxes in the window are just ludicrous. They insult our intelligence.

The most powerful arguments for a shot during the Towner film and a sniper in that third floor window, is that there are no other plausible alternatives.

Here is the video again, Bill. In the unlikely event that you really don't get it, this presentation covers JFK's reaction to that shot in detail.

And this is a closeup of JFK's face during the same time that Tina was capturing his reactions.

jfkblowup.png

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Duncan, please stop butting in and give Bill a fair chance to reply to my post.

The reason that you are not uploading the image of JFK with a balled fist in Towner, is because you cant, it doesn't exist.

If you've got it show it, if you can't show it, you have no case..period.

You've said that five times Duncan. Considering that everybody already agrees with you, it sure is strange how hard you have to work to convince us :rolleyes:

But these questions are addressed to Bill. And I don't think even he is stupid enough to buy that. Why don't you let him answer for himself, Duncan?

Bill, you previously acknowledged that you were aware that I stated that JFK, like everyone else, did not hear that shot and didn't realize that anyone was shooting at him.

Why do you now pretend that you didn't know that? Is it possible Bill, that you knew very well what I said but since you couldn't ridicule that, you pretended that I said something different?

And do you actually believe that JFK reacted in the past as he did in the Towner film??

Do you see him ball his hand into a fist as he was waving, in films or photos from 11/22/63 or during any other time in his life?? If so, when?

And if not, then why do you remain in denial about those reactions? The evidence tells us that he was reacting to a shot then and other evidence tells us that the shot came that third floor window in the Daltex building. The "rebuttals", claiming that there was a little man or a stack of boxes in the window are just ludicrous. They insult our intelligence.

The most powerful arguments for a shot during the Towner film and a sniper in that third floor window, is that there are no other plausible alternatives.

Here is the video again, Bill. In the unlikely event that you really don't get it, this presentation covers JFK's reaction to that shot in detail.

And this is a closeup of JFK's face during the same time that Tina was capturing his reactions.

jfkblowup.png

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Robert,

In regards to the Towner film.

I have created a video looping back and forth for you.

When JFK stops waving and starts to put his hand down, he also starts the closing of it.

I believe this is pretty much normal for most people to do, especially when the elbow is more than likely supported by an object.

In fact, sitting at my desk with my elbow on it, imitating a waving motion then terminating the wave, the most natural motion for me, is to start closing my wave into a gradual fist, while lowering it.

I would say this is subjective at best.

chris

http://98.155.3.209:8400/99823/Towner.mov

Chris, I believe there may be a couple things you are overlooking. First, notice that JFK begins to close his hand while it is still at its peak height. I can see that happening after his hand is brought down, but not in the midst of waving.

More importantly, while it may be perfectly normal for you to ball your hand into a fist as you are waving, it was not at all normal for JFK. In fact, looking at him waving numerous times in the DCA (Dallas Cinema Associates) movies, I never see him ball his hand into a fist at any time - before, during or after waving.

And then there is that falling to the left, which I seriously doubt is what you do.

JFK's reactions during the Towner film were unique Chris and unlike anything he had ever done before. He was reacting to a gunshot then.

WAVING2.gif

Chris, please address the issues I raised.

Why didn't JFK EVER ball his hand into a fist either during or after waving?

And why did he begin to make that fist before he had even begun to lower his hand?

Do you honestly believe that his reactions during the Towner film was like anything he had ever done before???

Robert,

Once again, the point involving the fist is subjective.

I can only show comparisons.

I'll leave it up to others to decide whether a distinction can be made.

You are trying to convince me with footage from Towner, that is less than desirable.

Even if the footage was conclusive (it's not), how do you know what a fist signify's?

The point of these photo's is not to disprove, it's to show that his waving and succeeding actions took many different forms.

Why not concentrate on something more concrete/provable.

chris

hand1.png

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This is "concrete and provable", Chris. You might as well look at his arms rising after the limo passes the Stemmons sign and deny that was a caused by a gunshot too. And showing a picture of JFK in which his hand is not perfectly straight, proves absolutely nothing. He wasn't even waving then.

But in the Towner film he was waving for one fourth of a second before his hand started to close into a fist, and then he fell to his left. His hand began to close, even before he started to bring it down. Those reactions were totally unnatural and unlike anything he ever did before.

Are you also suggesting Chris, that the look on his face was purely "subjective"?

jfkblowup.png

And how do you explain the fact that he never made a fist while he was waving - either before, during or after, in any other film that day?

WAVING2.gif

This is about analyzing silent film and identifying visible reactions. And JFK's reactions in the Towner film are not subtle. They are ridiculously obvious and completely unique. They took place at exactly the instant in which the limo exposed itself to that third floor window in the Daltex building, where the only professional criminal to be arrested in Dealey plaza that day was positioned.

And yes, I suppose you could call this a "subjective opinion" but some subjective opinions are a helluva lot better than others. :ice

Edited by Robert Harris
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Oh and one other thing guys. PLEASE stop playing semantic games with the word "fist". A "fist" is a hand that is completely closed. It suggests either anger or as in this case, serious stress. It is not the same as a hand in which the fingers are bent or partially open.

By any legitimate definition of the term, JFK's hand was in the form of a fist during the Towner film. And he started to make that fist while his hand was still at the highest position as he waved.

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By any legitimate definition of the term, JFK's hand was in the form of a fist during the Towner film.

Let's see it then.

Certainly. What you don't get is, that while you continue to tell everyone what they don't see, they are staring JFK's fist. A picture is worth a thousand lies, Duncan :ice

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