Altgens Photograph of Lovelady / Oswald

[Dan Ryan]

The Altgens photograph has been done to death in terms of is it Oswald or is it Lovelady, was it Oswald's shirt or was it Lovelady's shirt? The earliest that I dicussed this issue was in 1984 when the photograph was released in the UK magazine "Unsolved". I have quite a good black and white photograph from that magazine and the discussion was put to bed by two things;- the photograph of Lovelady and the acceptance by Groden that the shirt Lovelady wore was one and the same as the one in the Altgens photograph (Lovelady's too striped for me but OK).

However subsequently I came accross a website that had a new angle. That the head of Lovelady, was switched with the head of Oswald and Lovelady's presence was obliterated. Witnesses had stated that Lovelady was sitting on the steps and therefore his head may have been in front of the headless man with his arms above his head.

This was discussed to some extent in April 2006 and Scott G Edwards pointed out that there was a man to the left, wearing a trilby hat (fedora in USA?)who had his face obliterated. Subsequent responses made out it was a baby in the arms of another man that covered his face.

However if you see the colour version on http://www.blingcheese.com/video-148/david+morse.htm it is quite clear that something is amiss. The scratched out facial area of the man in the trilby is bright red.

Was that by chance Ruby or an important conspirator who should not have been there? Clearly from this website something is untoward when the picture goes from black and white to colour. Perhaps the photographic experts can explain.

Regards,

Dan Ryan

[Daniel Meyer]

The Altgens photograph has been done to death in terms of is it Oswald or is it Lovelady, was it Oswald's shirt or was it Lovelady's shirt? The earliest that I dicussed this issue was in 1984 when the photograph was released in the UK magazine "Unsolved". I have quite a good black and white photograph from that magazine and the discussion was put to bed by two things;- the photograph of Lovelady and the acceptance by Groden that the shirt Lovelady wore was one and the same as the one in the Altgens photograph (Lovelady's too striped for me but OK).

However subsequently I came accross a website that had a new angle. That the head of Lovelady, was switched with the head of Oswald and Lovelady's presence was obliterated. Witnesses had stated that Lovelady was sitting on the steps and therefore his head may have been in front of the headless man with his arms above his head.

This was discussed to some extent in April 2006 and Scott G Edwards pointed out that there was a man to the left, wearing a trilby hat (fedora in USA?)who had his face obliterated. Subsequent responses made out it was a baby in the arms of another man that covered his face.

However if you see the colour version on http://www.blingcheese.com/video-148/david+morse.htm it is quite clear that something is amiss. The scratched out facial area of the man in the trilby is bright red.

Was that by chance Ruby or an important conspirator who should not have been there? Clearly from this website something is untoward when the picture goes from black and white to colour. Perhaps the photographic experts can explain.

Regards,

Dan Ryan

If you didn't know, the B&W is the original (or at least as close to the original as we have now); colorized versions are speculative.

The Oswald in the doorway speculation goes back to the early days of the case. The Warren Commission dismissed it saying Lovelady identified himself in the photo; in "Rush to Judgement" Mark Lane says the report volumes have no record of Lovelady having been shown the Altgens photo much less identifying himself in it.

[Steve Duffy]

As it's my first real chance to comment on this pic here, I'll simply ask:

If it was Lee in the doorway, wouldn't that be a great alibi to give to the DPD?

Obviously 40 plus years of debate makes the question more complicated, but at it's very heart, wouldn't the evidence lead to Lovelady, with Lee being were he was seen before and after the assassiantion, in the Lunch Room?

[Dixie Dea]

I have quite often thought about this Oswald/Lovelady, in the doorway controversy, through the years. I do want to stress that this is only my own speculative thoughts and not any absolute opinion. But for now, just something to be considered. First of all, I do agree with Steve, that if it was Oswald, it would have been a great alibi to give the DPD. However, we also do not really know what was truth and what wasn't, regarding Oswald's interrogation. Secondly, although the doorway person looks quite similar to both Oswald and Lovelady and yet at the same time, not so much like either of them. The same goes for the shirt. the person was wearing. Just enough so, to make us all uncertain. Even though I do realize some researchers have definite beliefs on which one it was. I don't feel that in other photos, of both, that they look alike at all and neither does that shirt. So, my thoughts are that the doorway man has been altered or that this person is possibly the so-called imposter.

Dixie

[Guest Tom Scully]

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/0f5f040f1a452dfc?pli=1

"The Rabid Kooks will continue to isolate the evidence and then

hold up each "isolated" piece and shout "Look! Here's proof of

conspiracy!", without placing that piece back into the TOTALITY of the

overall evidence in the case (in order to figure out if this isolated

hunk of data really DOES, in fact, point away from Oswald's lone

guilt)...

...And such isolation regarding Brennan's remarks is just plain

screwy -- esp. when it comes to the kooks who wish to tear down

Brennan's physical description of the sixth-floor assassin, which was

a description that comes remarkably close, indeed, to matching Lee

Oswald---"A [white] man in his early thirties, fair complexion,

slender but neat, neat slender, possibly 5-foot-10, 160 to 170

pounds." -- Howard L. Brennan

"That description, when taken as a "general" witness

observation, certainly does NOT exclude Lee Harvey Oswald. In fact, it

"fits" Lee Harvey Oswald pretty darn nicely in most crucial respects

-- e.g., Oswald was "slender"; Oswald was a "white man"; Oswald did

have a "fair complexion"; Oswald was 5'9" (Brennan was a mere one inch

off there); Oswald weighed an "estimated 150 pounds" (per his autopsy

report). So Brennan was only ten pounds off on his weight estimate of

the assassin. ...

"But the kooks will isolate the "early 30s" reference, or the

"170 pounds" remark, and attempt to make it appear that Mr. Brennan

could not POSSIBLY have been looking at Lee Oswald for those few

fleeting moments on 11/22/63." -- DVP; August 2006

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10766&relPageId=39

...and: http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10766&relPageId=22

Edited November 7, 2010 by Tom Scully

[John Dolva]

I think Brennans description is such that it could be argued he could not have been as conclusive because of the angle he is said to be looking from, the low sill, a person in that windows posture at the time. His description seems more 'scripted' imo.

(sideline: Brennan is one documented variant of Branum)

[Bill Miller]

Years ago on either this forum or Lancer's, Josiah Thompson posted an image of Lovelady in the doorway (Altgens 6) so clear that the black and white border stripes around the plaid print of his shirt could be matched to the shirt Lovelady was wearing at the police station.

Bill Miller

[Guest Tom Scully]

Robin Unger once posted this.:

...and a high res, full frame image is on his website:

http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=561&fullsize=1

...and Bill :

It is not established that Lovelady was either the

Altgens doorwayman nor the DPDman. It all comes

down to the plaid shirt.

Jack

Jack, I believe I have seen some footage of Lovelady sitting in the DPD and he looks towards the camera while wearing the shirt that you claim cannot be his, so there is no question that it is Lovelady in that doorway and in the DPD photos.

The animated overlay below was created by me in my infancy at doing scaled overlays ... the plaid design on the man in the doorway's shirt and Lovelady's red shirt is the same. Also, a profiled view of Lovelady will make it appear that his shirt is buttoned at the collar, although there is nothing unusual about a person who enters into a government building wanting to button up his shirt so to be more presentable, especially in 1963. But in the flier there is an image of Lovelady in profile which makes his shirt look buttoned at the collar, but in the movie footage that the still image was taken from, Billy turns slightly at one point which exposes more of his white T-shirt, thus showing that his shirt wasn't actually buttoned as the profile look made it appear.

Bill

I don't know why the two images in Bill's old post won't display, but you can view them here.:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?app=forums&module=forums&section=findpost&pid=61571

Higher resolution shots and crops posted by Lee Forman in this thread.:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=11956&view=findpost&p=132815

Edited November 8, 2010 by Tom Scully

[Paul Baker]

This is an enduring mystery.

For blind people perhaps.

*Yawn*

Isn't it great when an old chestnut does the rounds again? It clearly isn't Oswald in that picture. Look at the hairline for one thing. In any case, if Oswald was on the steps at the time, why didn't anyone else see him, and why didn't he simply tell the truth and state that he was on the steps as the motorcade passed, rather than lie?

[Guest Tom Scully]

On the lower left at this link, is the best resolution I can find, 3.3 mb file, originally posted on a thread on this forum. http://jfk.fotopic.net/c1259640.html

Next to it is a lower resolution, enlarged image, with an "x" at the end of the file name.

This is the best result I can manage from the 3.3 mb file, using Photoshop.:

[Paul Baker]

On the lower left at this link, is the best resolution I can find, 3.3 mb file, originally posted on a thread on this forum. http://jfk.fotopic.net/c1259640.html

Next to it is a lower resolution, enlarged image, with an "x" at the end of the file name.

This is the best result I can manage from the 3.3 mb file, using Photoshop.:

Yup ... it's still Lovelady.

[Robin Unger]

On the lower left at this link, is the best resolution I can find, 3.3 mb file, originally posted on a thread on this forum. http://jfk.fotopic.net/c1259640.html

Next to it is a lower resolution, enlarged image, with an "x" at the end of the file name.

This is the best result I can manage from the 3.3 mb file, using Photoshop.:

Hi Tom.

Many of the scans on the fotopic site including that one, were taken from my image galleries.

That is why he has Credited me on his website.

NA013009.jpg was the original name given to it by Corbis, when i purchased the image and downloaded it.

unfortunately, that Corbis copy does not have a very good resolution near the doorway area, it is not as sharp as i would like it to be.

Thanks for posting that Exellent Altgens 6 Crop from the Cuban photo website, i had been looking for it, but couldn't remember where i first found it.

Cheers.

Robin.

Edited November 8, 2010 by Robin Unger

[Dean Hagerman]

Its Lovelady, no matter how many times you look at it, its Lovelady

Oswald was in the 2nd floor lunchroom at that very moment

[Ian Kingsbury]

On the lower left at this link, is the best resolution I can find, 3.3 mb file, originally posted on a thread on this forum. http://jfk.fotopic.net/c1259640.html

Next to it is a lower resolution, enlarged image, with an "x" at the end of the file name.

This is the best result I can manage from the 3.3 mb file, using Photoshop.:

Hi Tom.

Many of the scans on the fotopic site including that one, were taken from my image galleries.

That is why he has Credited me on his website.

NA013009.jpg was the original name given to it by Corbis, when i purchased the image and downloaded it.

unfortunately, that Corbis copy does not have a very good resolution near the doorway area, it is not as sharp as i would like it to be.

Cheers.

Robin.

Robin

Is it my eyes or does Lovelady have a deformed left shoulder .I can see a portly chap behind dark suit, hat and white shirt .

Ian

[Robin Unger]

On the lower left at this link, is the best resolution I can find, 3.3 mb file, originally posted on a thread on this forum. http://jfk.fotopic.net/c1259640.html

Next to it is a lower resolution, enlarged image, with an "x" at the end of the file name.

This is the best result I can manage from the 3.3 mb file, using Photoshop.:

Hi Tom.

Many of the scans on the fotopic site including that one, were taken from my image galleries.

That is why he has Credited me on his website.

NA013009.jpg was the original name given to it by Corbis, when i purchased the image and downloaded it.

unfortunately, that Corbis copy does not have a very good resolution near the doorway area, it is not as sharp as i would like it to be.

Cheers.

Robin.

Robin

Is it my eyes or does Lovelady have a deformed left shoulder .I can see a portly chap behind dark suit, hat and white shirt .

Ian

Hi Ian

As i uderstand it the portly chap is Bill Shelley.

Mr. BALL - Did you eat your lunch?

Mr. SHELLEY - No, I started eating.

Mr. BALL - Where did you start eating it?

Mr. SHELLEY - In my office next to Mr. Truly's and 1 ate part of it which I do usually and finish up later on in the day but I went outside then to the front,

Mr. BALL - Why did you go to the front?

Mr. SHELLEY - Oh, several people were out there waiting to watch the motorcade and I went out to join them.

Mr. BALL - And who was out there?

Mr. SHELLEY - Well, there was Lloyd Viles of McGraw-Hill, Sarah Stanton, she's with Texas School Book, and Wesley Frazier and Billy Lovelady joined us shortly afterwards.

Mr. BALL - You were standing where?

Mr. SHELLEY - Just outside the glass doors there.

Mr. BALL - That would be on the top landing of the entrance?

Mr. SHELLEY - yes.

Mr. BALL - Did you see the motorcade pass?

Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/shelley1.htm