Did Oswald SWITCH rifle shoulder straps?

[Craig Lamson]

As per Lammy's latest screed above, please click here where Pat Speer takes on all of his latest rants:

http://www.patspeer.com/chapter4d%3Asackoflies

Except Speer continues to get it completely wrong. The problem for JimD is that his total lack of understanding and education in this matter. He champions work that he can't even understand.

But back to Speers garbage. My proofs stand. Pat has blown it completly. He attempts to measure objects in three different photos taken at different camera to subject distance by resizing them to some fabricated size. This is a proven and EPIC fail. Despite his ignorant musings, Speer can't get past this simple point. I've offered Speer many examples of the failings of this process and offered him examples where he can apply his methods to controlled samples to confirm his theory of resizing. He has FAILED on all counts.

So so course all of Speers work, based on these faulty measurements FAIL. Speer can't refute any of this nor can he show his methond really works. As I said...EPIC FAIL.

Which brings us back to Jim D. How amazing to see him grasping at straws, and pimping work that is wrong beyond a shadow of a doubt. Even more entertaining to see him wallow in his ignorance of the subject matter. Quite fitting, considering the source.

So Jim, Please REFUTE THE WORK. Show us why the methonds Speer has used are proper and accurate and why my examples showing the opposite are incorrect. Speer has failed. Maybe you will have better luck. You better because many of the so called proofs of alteration of the BY photos you champion fail on the very same point.

Not looking good for Jim D these days.

Edited November 13, 2010 by Craig Lamson

[William Kelly]

You know there are dozens, litterally dozens of gaps in the official story -

Welcome to REAL LIFE Bill.....

First off:

1. The "strap issue", not unlike most other issues, has far more lives than any cat as it has been "beat to death" here, there, and most everywhere.

2. Anyone who has bothered to read the testimonies of FBI Agent Robert Frazier is fully aware of the difference in the "strap" as seen in the backyard photo's and as found on the weapon.

3. Anyone who has bothered to read the research works of Dr. Charles Lattimer is fully aware of the fact that he fully identified exactly what the leather strap was actually constructed from. (shoulder strap from a U.S. Military issue shoulder holster pistol) As issued to literally thousands of U.S. Military Pilots.

4. As most may (or may not) recall, I long ago posted the HSCA testimony of Adrian Alba in which he testified that he assisted LHO in manufacture of the leather strap sling, by allowing LHO to utilize his rivet installing machine.

Now, (assuming the same weapon) the rifle had a rope sling in Dallas.

LHO approached Adrian Alba (according to his HSCA testimony) about help in taking the pistol shoulder strap and riveting it together to make a rifle sling.

Which leaves one with absolutely no means by which to verify where the leather sling was acquired.

And lastly!

Myself as well as many others have located the exact same shoulder holster at old military surplus stores and have created the identical leather sling.

(actually, I have located and purchased two of the shoulder holsters/complete with leather strap)

Thanks for reminding us about this Tom,

http://educationforu...pic=13354&st=60

As it has been speculated that Osawld obtained the strap was obtained at a Dallas Army-Navy surplus store, which is still possible, there is that New Orleans connection and Alba is certainly a key witness.

BK

Oh, yea, and the strap has been identified as a Bucheimer holster, now out of business. I thought this outdoor forum exchange was interesting though, from the Crescent City Garage to Towson, Maryland and the Navy PIC. , one hop, skip and a jump.

Bucheimer Holsters?

http://www.24hourcam...75532/site_id/1

Does anyone know if the Bucheimer Comany (holster) is still in business? I haven't been able to find them in "Shooters Bible" or on the Internet.

Thanks,

Norm -

Hi Norm, they went the way of the DO-DO bird in the mid 70's sir. Sorry.

Too bad.

And ahh, the memories! The original Bucheimer company used to occupy a corner on York Road at the north end of Towson, Maryland (on the corner of York and Joppa Roads, IIRC). When I first knew the outfit, it was making and selling very-high-quality leather goods to the Maryland horse crowd. No holsters at first. Those came later.

I stopped-in there many times between 1950 and 1953 on my way from the Naval Photographic Center in Anacostia to spend weekends with my folks in Cockeysville, just a few miles farther up York Road. In a basement in the same block, Set Fitchett's "Sets's Sport Shop" was an even more frequent stop where I bought and traded (mostly bought) a passel of old guns and related goodies (including black powder, percussion caps, etc). The kid who worked for Set, Belden Burns, grew-up to be a manufacturers' rep (and Cockeysville resident, IIRC) whom I used to run into at SHOT Shows. Haven't seen Bel for a good many years now.

I've just now realized that I haven't seen a Bucheimer belt or holster for many years. Didn't miss 'em until now that I hear that the outfit is no more. Hope that Bel's still up and about._________________________

Druther be a flake than a fake, prefer class to crass.

When you have nothing to say, that's exactly the right thing to say.

Snottiness takes no skill, produces no benefit.

Always take your responsibilities seriously — never yourself

Ken Howell

Campfire Kahuna

http://www.24hourcam...75532/site_id/1

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Tom:

Adrian Alba was a good witness at one time. Many, many years ago.

As time has gone on, his credibility has severely dissipated. I am surprised you are not aware of this.

Secondly, excuse some of us if we don't buy FBI agent Frazier wholesale. He is the guy who got a bullet on the evening of the assassination that did not match the one found by Wright and Tomlinson at Parkland. He also got that bullet before it was turned over to Elmer Lee Todd at the White House. And Todd was supposed to be the guy who gave the Wright-Tomlinson bullet to him.

Did Frazier ever say anything about this?

"Did Frazier ever say anything about this?"

1. Frazier stated that he received one virtually intact bullet and various other fragments of bullets.

And, although I personally caught him in what appears as an attempt to misrepresent exactly where he got his spectrographic analysis information to which he testified, my latter experience in old age tells me that it just may have been one of those "memory" things.

2. ADRIAN ALBA:

When one takes into consideration the fact that Adrian Alba was a charter member of the "MINUTEMEN", as well as the fact that he was arrested at a training camp which was also located on the north shores of Lake Ponchetrain, then one comes to understand exactly why he may want to suffer a memory lapse also.

As I have indicated many times before, LHO/aka the "squirrell" was insuring that he left his false trail/scent at a wide variety of suspicious locations.

Alba's later (HSCA) recollections in regards to the leather strap sling should have been pursued much farther by those who questioned him.

Especially when one takes into consideration his prior "MINUTEMEN" record.

Plus his direct-line family ties to a former aviator who just possibly would have worn a shoulder holster pistol.

The "Alba Scam" on the part of LHO is little different than the other scams he was pulling in leaving his "scent" at a wide variety of pro as well as con locations.

Certainly glad that I have not wasted that much cerebral capacity "chasing up an empty tree"!

[William Kelly]

Tom:

Adrian Alba was a good witness at one time. Many, many years ago.

As time has gone on, his credibility has severely dissipated. I am surprised you are not aware of this.

Secondly, excuse some of us if we don't buy FBI agent Frazier wholesale. He is the guy who got a bullet on the evening of the assassination that did not match the one found by Wright and Tomlinson at Parkland. He also got that bullet before it was turned over to Elmer Lee Todd at the White House. And Todd was supposed to be the guy who gave the Wright-Tomlinson bullet to him.

Did Frazier ever say anything about this?

"Did Frazier ever say anything about this?"

1. Frazier stated that he received one virtually intact bullet and various other fragments of bullets.

And, although I personally caught him in what appears as an attempt to misrepresent exactly where he got his spectrographic analysis information to which he testified, my latter experience in old age tells me that it just may have been one of those "memory" things.

2. ADRIAN ALBA:

When one takes into consideration the fact that Adrian Alba was a charter member of the "MINUTEMEN", as well as the fact that he was arrested at a training camp which was also located on the north shores of Lake Ponchetrain, then one comes to understand exactly why he may want to suffer a memory lapse also.

As I have indicated many times before, LHO/aka the "squirrell" was insuring that he left his false trail/scent at a wide variety of suspicious locations.

Alba's later (HSCA) recollections in regards to the leather strap sling should have been pursued much farther by those who questioned him.

Especially when one takes into consideration his prior "MINUTEMEN" record.

Plus his direct-line family ties to a former aviator who just possibly would have worn a shoulder holster pistol.

The "Alba Scam" on the part of LHO is little different than the other scams he was pulling in leaving his "scent" at a wide variety of pro as well as con locations.

Certainly glad that I have not wasted that much cerebral capacity "chasing up an empty tree"!

The sling on the TSBD rifle was a part of a U.S. Air Force holster and harness set, patented by Norris N. Murray, on March 6, 1956, patent No. 2,819,830. ( see U.S. Military Holsters and Pistol cartridge Boxes By Edward Scott Meadows, 1987 , 376.)

http://groups.google...6a4e495a963b2bd

Howdy here are several photos of Air Force M13 Aircrewman flap holsters [ and issued with the model 10 2 inchs issued in 1960 and the model 56 ] , one is a odd ball in that it not marked USAF , I had believed until now only Milsp [ Milawalee Saddley] and Servise MFG of Yonkers were the only manufactures of these holsters .Milsup holsers are not marked Milsp , but do have the 55D3513 part number on the side and are not of the quality of the Servise MFG holsters .Servise MFG of Yonkers are marked Servise MFG of Yonkers.

This odd has no marking and is again not marked USAF , has anyone else seen a holster like this ??

please post , robbt

heres the odd ball with shoulder strap. Photo:

I was issued one just like that with a Victory model .38 for the Cuban Missile Crisis.

Hope this helps.

Bill

Hello Robbt:

As mentioned earlier this holster was designed for use with the 2" barrel, M13 S&W Aircrewman and the similar Colt Aircrewman lightweight, 6-shot, .38 Special revolvers. The holster was designed and patented by Norris N. Murray of Dayton, OH. I have not confirmed this but I suspect that Mr. Murray may have been employed at Wright Patterson AFB in Dayton. The patent was applied for in 1956 and granted in 1958.

The chief design characteristic is that the holster is capable of being worn in a variety of positions, ie, as a shoulder holster, a belt holster, and strapped to the right leg. Its designer touted its versatility in positioning the holster as one of its major attributes.

I have several examples of this holster, both black and brown, in my own collection. As far as I can determine the only makers of this holster were Milwaukee Saddlery Co. (later known as Milsco) and Service Manufacturing Co. of Yonkers, NY. While most of these holsters are black, I have seen some in brown and you show one such example in your photo above. The brown holsters are somewhat of an anomaly as the US Air Force had moved to black leather equipments by 1950. These holsters are also found in a version that will accommodate a 4" barreled revolver.

You asked about your example that was unmarked. I don't know why it is unmarked. My guess is that it was either an early version or more likely that it was an overrun or intended for sale on the civilian market. The AF specification probably called for the holster to be marked USAF, and both makers did in fact mark theirs as such. Failure to comply with a specification like that would likely cause the product to be rejected. I also have brown, 2" unmarked examples in my collection.

BTW, I believe the 55D3513 marking is not a part number but rather a drawing number.

I hope this information is helpful to you.

Regards,

Charlie Flick

Edited November 13, 2010 by William Kelly

[David Josephs]

Tom,

Been looking thru the testimony and cannot find where anything was added to Alba's testimony for the HSCA... they simply reproduce the WCR testimony and there is no mention of the sling there.

And I've looked elsewhere... can you link to Alba discussion the making of the new leather sling?

Thanks

DJ

Tom:

Adrian Alba was a good witness at one time. Many, many years ago.

As time has gone on, his credibility has severely dissipated. I am surprised you are not aware of this.

Secondly, excuse some of us if we don't buy FBI agent Frazier wholesale. He is the guy who got a bullet on the evening of the assassination that did not match the one found by Wright and Tomlinson at Parkland. He also got that bullet before it was turned over to Elmer Lee Todd at the White House. And Todd was supposed to be the guy who gave the Wright-Tomlinson bullet to him.

Did Frazier ever say anything about this?

"Did Frazier ever say anything about this?"

1. Frazier stated that he received one virtually intact bullet and various other fragments of bullets.

And, although I personally caught him in what appears as an attempt to misrepresent exactly where he got his spectrographic analysis information to which he testified, my latter experience in old age tells me that it just may have been one of those "memory" things.

2. ADRIAN ALBA:

When one takes into consideration the fact that Adrian Alba was a charter member of the "MINUTEMEN", as well as the fact that he was arrested at a training camp which was also located on the north shores of Lake Ponchetrain, then one comes to understand exactly why he may want to suffer a memory lapse also.

As I have indicated many times before, LHO/aka the "squirrell" was insuring that he left his false trail/scent at a wide variety of suspicious locations.

Alba's later (HSCA) recollections in regards to the leather strap sling should have been pursued much farther by those who questioned him.

Especially when one takes into consideration his prior "MINUTEMEN" record.

Plus his direct-line family ties to a former aviator who just possibly would have worn a shoulder holster pistol.

The "Alba Scam" on the part of LHO is little different than the other scams he was pulling in leaving his "scent" at a wide variety of pro as well as con locations.

Certainly glad that I have not wasted that much cerebral capacity "chasing up an empty tree"!

[David Josephs]

dup

Edited October 3, 2011 by David Josephs

[Greg Burnham]

Good to be on the same path with you BK.... maybe we can get some comments from the LNers??

Maybe you could post the link to your earlier attempts - or were they met with silence from the DVP crowd?

The one in the backyard photo looks homemade from some rope.... even looks tied in a knot at the barrel end.

I assume you've determined that Oswald never bought a strap or owned an Air Force pistol holder?

Is this HUGE??? Jim?

DJ

David,

Why do you have to bring the Lone Nutters and DVP into it?

I mean, the strap is what it is, and if indeed it is a USAF pistol holster strap, what does that mean?

I no longer think or care what Lone Nutters think and care about unless they interfere with my research.

The strap is important to me because I think that if the rifle was used in the assassination, then perhaps the ammo came from the same source as the strap,

and if we can identify the source of the strap, we can possibly identify the source of the ammo.

BK

Bill,

If you're referring to the spent shells found on the 6th floor...the source of the ammo was Western Cartridge Company. It was purchased from them by the US Marine Corps in a batch of 400 THOUSAND in 1954.

As for the strap, the FBI did an extensive search for its source to no avail. In fact, in their report (which I have here somewhere) they concluded that (get this) it might have actually been a guitar strap! I jest you not, that's what it says. I'll see if I can scan it and upload it later.

[David Josephs]

Good to be on the same path with you BK.... maybe we can get some comments from the LNers??

Maybe you could post the link to your earlier attempts - or were they met with silence from the DVP crowd?

The one in the backyard photo looks homemade from some rope.... even looks tied in a knot at the barrel end.

I assume you've determined that Oswald never bought a strap or owned an Air Force pistol holder?

Is this HUGE??? Jim?

DJ

David,

Why do you have to bring the Lone Nutters and DVP into it?

I mean, the strap is what it is, and if indeed it is a USAF pistol holster strap, what does that mean?

I no longer think or care what Lone Nutters think and care about unless they interfere with my research.

The strap is important to me because I think that if the rifle was used in the assassination, then perhaps the ammo came from the same source as the strap,

and if we can identify the source of the strap, we can possibly identify the source of the ammo.

BK

Bill,

If you're referring to the spent shells found on the 6th floor...the source of the ammo was Western Cartridge Company. It was purchased from them by the US Marine Corps in a batch of 400 THOUSAND in 1954.

As for the strap, the FBI did an extensive search for its source to no avail. In fact, in their report (which I have here somewhere) they concluded that (get this) it might have actually been a guitar strap! I jest you not, that's what it says. I'll see if I can scan it and upload it later.

Greg...

pretty sure that Tom was right about what the strap was made FROM... just that I cannot find evidence where Alba helped with his rivot gun, or even says he did.

Kinda of interesting though that Oswald would bo so cheap as to not buy a strap, ammo or a clip at the time of the purchase yet winds up using ROPE.. (same as the rope that wrapped the blanket I wonder??)

practicing multiple times at multiple locations (again... that's a lot of ammo with no purchase record) and then at some point PAY for a new strap that cannot even be used to fire the rifle as configured...

and what about the holster for the pistol... where exactly did that come from?

Good to hear/see ya Greg.... hope all is well in your world

Peace

DJ

[Greg Burnham]

Hey David,

All is good here. Thanks for asking.

The FBI report I have is mildly interesting, perhaps entertaining is a better word for it. It refers to a "sling" used on the gun (not a strap). Here is a brief excerpt from one part of it, dated December 24, 1963:

"On December 18, 1963, Mr. ADRIAN T. ALBA was contacted at his place of business, Crescent City Garage, Inc., 618 Magazine, New orleans. At this time he was shown photographs of the device utilized as a sling on the rifle of LEE HARVEY OSWALD. Mr. ALBA said he had never seen OSWALD with the likes of the contraption shown and expressed the opinion that it definitely had never been intended at the time of manufacture to be used as a rifle sling. He reiterated, as on previous occasions, that he and OSWALD had never discussed rifle slings or like devices for use in the firing of a rifle."

FWIW

[David Josephs]

Hey David,

All is good here. Thanks for asking.

The FBI report I have is mildly interesting, perhaps entertaining is a better word for it. It refers to a "sling" used on the gun (not a strap). Here is a brief excerpt from one part of it, dated December 24, 1963:

"On December 18, 1963, Mr. ADRIAN T. ALBA was contacted at his place of business, Crescent City Garage, Inc., 618 Magazine, New orleans. At this time he was shown photographs of the device utilized as a sling on the rifle of LEE HARVEY OSWALD. Mr. ALBA said he had never seen OSWALD with the likes of the contraption shown and expressed the opinion that it definitely had never been intended at the time of manufacture to be used as a rifle sling. He reiterated, as on previous occasions, that he and OSWALD had never discussed rifle slings or like devices for use in the firing of a rifle."

FWIW

Excellent... can you lead me to this report? Purvis seems to believe that he helped create this sling yet I find nothing top support that statement....

and if indeed it is the opposite... Tom has some 'splaining to do...

DJ

[Greg Burnham]

Hey David,

All is good here. Thanks for asking.

The FBI report I have is mildly interesting, perhaps entertaining is a better word for it. It refers to a "sling" used on the gun (not a strap). Here is a brief excerpt from one part of it, dated December 24, 1963:

"On December 18, 1963, Mr. ADRIAN T. ALBA was contacted at his place of business, Crescent City Garage, Inc., 618 Magazine, New orleans. At this time he was shown photographs of the device utilized as a sling on the rifle of LEE HARVEY OSWALD. Mr. ALBA said he had never seen OSWALD with the likes of the contraption shown and expressed the opinion that it definitely had never been intended at the time of manufacture to be used as a rifle sling. He reiterated, as on previous occasions, that he and OSWALD had never discussed rifle slings or like devices for use in the firing of a rifle."

FWIW

Excellent... can you lead me to this report? Purvis seems to believe that he helped create this sling yet I find nothing top support that statement....

and if indeed it is the opposite... Tom has some 'splaining to do...

DJ

I have an iMAC computer. My scanner software isn't compatible with same. I was an IBM PC dude for 20 years--until last year. I love my MAC, but there are compatibility issues. I will probably use a PDF conversion to upload it, but in the meantime:

It is FBI file number: NO 100-16601 by Special Agent Robert M. Whomsley /dc

I think it is declassified.

[Greg Burnham]

Hope this is declassified...

[David Josephs]

Hope this is declassified...

Thanks again Greg...

seems NO 100-16601 comprised a whole bunch of interviews... what I found surprising was this

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/pdf/WH17_CE_826.pdf report about Oswald in NO....

There are 6 different NO T-#'s for informants reporting on Oswald... SIX!

How does that jive with the FBI not being interested in our boy Lee??

DJ

[Michael Hogan]

Hope this is declassified...

Thanks again Greg...

seems NO 100-16601 comprised a whole bunch of interviews... what I found surprising was this

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/pdf/WH17_CE_826.pdf report about Oswald in NO....

There are 6 different NO T-#'s for informants reporting on Oswald... SIX!

How does that jive with the FBI not being interested in our boy Lee??

DJ

Greg and DJ, thanks for staying connected to the forum. Your posts are always looked forward to by me.

And Greg, a special thanks for the recent update on Jack.

[David Josephs]

Hope this is declassified...

Thanks again Greg...

seems NO 100-16601 comprised a whole bunch of interviews... what I found surprising was this

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/pdf/WH17_CE_826.pdf report about Oswald in NO....

There are 6 different NO T-#'s for informants reporting on Oswald... SIX!

How does that jive with the FBI not being interested in our boy Lee??

DJ

Greg and DJ, thanks for staying connected to the forum. Your posts are always looked forward to by me.

And Greg, a special thanks for the recent update on Jack.

Thanks Michael... greatly appreaciated and the sentiment is equally returned.