What a family!

[J. Raymond Carroll]

Sources: Armstrong, John, Harvey and Lee; Marrs, Jim, Crossfire; Douglass, James, JFK and the Unspeakable; www.history-matters.com

Reliable Sources, including ALIENS FROM OUTER SPACE!

[Greg Parker]

Martin - Besides Kathy C., Jack and you I don't think many people take the 2 Oswalds theory seriously.

Your talk of John Pic seems to have gotten Greg all excited though because he's been convinced for years the man was an itel op.

"Yes. Pic's notation on mileage for the "get-together" indicates it was official business."

Len, please feel free to add the quote to your sig.

Meanwhile, those with more enquiring minds can go here to see why Len is so eager to put up the "nothing to see here" sign

[Michael Hogan]

Martin Blank:

Marina once said she had two husbands. ("I had two husbands: Lee, the father of my children, an affectionate and kind man; and Harvey Oswald, the assassin of President Kennedy") Did she get them mixed up innocently? Or was it purposeful. Who was the other in addition to Harvey? Was she with both Harvey and Lee?

This quote was supposedly made to a French journalist. A quick google tells me the only people who mention this alleged quote are pushing the two Oswald theory. Two alarm bells right there. The jourmalist is unnamed and no one but Armstrong and his supporters use the "quote".

Greg, can you tell me where Armstrong used that quote?

If he didn't, I apologise. I was relying on this:

The Final Word

I leave you with these mysterious words from the widow, Marina.

"I had two husbands: Lee, the father of my children, an affectionate and kind man; and Harvey Oswald, the assassin of President Kennedy."

Sources: Armstrong, John, Harvey and Lee; Marrs, Jim, Crossfire; Douglass, James, JFK and the Unspeakable; www.history-matters.com

http://oswaldsmother...ude-part-4.html

I saw that when I Googled. Those sources were for that author's entire essay. I don't believe that Armstrong

ever used that quote and would have to be shown where he did in order to be convinced otherwise.

Edited November 17, 2010 by Michael Hogan

[Jack White]

What are we to make of the Oswald "family"? Are they the modern spy age family? Consider:

Who is and where did the other Oswald mother go? (The woman who was pictured in front of a car with Edwin Ekdahl?)

Martin, there was only one Marguerite. No world in the universe was ready for two...

Who is the second Marguerite Oswald? What was her role regarding her "son"?

This is a figment of Armstrong's imagination. Unfortunately, this belief has spread like a pathogen through parts of the research community.

Who is the real mother of Lee Harvey Oswald, Robert Oswald and John Pic?

Marguerite Oswald nee Claverie.

Who is Harvey Oswald's real mother?

There was no "Harvey Oswald".

Are Robert Oswald, John Pic and Lee brothers?

Yes

Are Robert Oswald, John Pic and Harvey brothers?

There was no "Harvey". The note in Pic's notebook could be a reference to Marina's dentist whose name was Harvey. It could also be a reference to Bill Harvey. IMO, the name has been falsely associated with the mailing address. As can be seen, it is not even written on the same page, let alone directly above the address as you would be expected if the name and the address had a connection.

http://www.history-m...Vol21_0076a.htm

Are Robert Oswald, John Pic and some other person with the last name of Oswald brothers?

Yes. His name was Lee.

Marina once said she had two husbands. ("I had two husbands: Lee, the father of my children, an affectionate and kind man; and Harvey Oswald, the assassin of President Kennedy") Did she get them mixed up innocently? Or was it purposeful. Who was the other in addition to Harvey? Was she with both Harvey and Lee?

This quote was supposedly made to a French journalist. A quick google tells me the only people who mention this alleged quote are pushing the two Oswald theory. Two alarm bells right there. The jourmalist is unnamed and no one but Armstrong and his supporters use the "quote".

How many "Lee Harvey Oswalds" were there?

Birth and census records might answer that, but there was only one who went to Russia and was an accused assassin.

Was Oswald's cousin, Marilyn Murret, intelligence-connected?

Quite possibly.

Was Oswald's uncle Charles "Dutz" Murret mob-connected?

Without much doubt.

What kind of "family" takes in and accepts two obvious strangers/outsiders (Harvey and Marguerite) as their own for a Thanksgiving celebration and more.

Marguerite was not invited to the '62 Thanksgiving get-together. All there (with one exception - Peter Gregory) were related by blood or marriage.

Why did John Pic not recognize his half brother?

I have a half brother I don't recognise in some old photos. Way too much read into that part of Pic's testimony.

Why did Harvey refer to Pic as his half brother when he never had previously?

Why did LEE say that? we only have Pic's word that he did. Recall that relations between the two were supposedly strained, and putting those words in Lee's mouth helped reinforce that in the minds of the commission. But even if LEE did say that, so what? In my youth, I'm ashamed to say that is the way I introduced my brother a couple of times. Not even sure why I did that.

Was the Thanksgiving get-together a debriefing opportunity?

Yes. Pic's notation on mileage for the "get-together" indicates it was official business.

Finally, there is the irony of Robert Oswald being able to condemn his brother for the assassination and people knowingly shaking their heads in assent unaware that he is talking about Lee and not Harvey. He is telling the truth but no one realizes the true nature of that truth. Talk about separate realities.

I'm sorry, but the onlly separate reality is the one created by Armstrong. Like some religions are built on faith and phony or misread/misunderstood/misinterpreted artifacts, so the "Harvey & Lee" religion is built on faith and misreading.

Shakespeare could have done a sequel to Hamlet based on the Oswalds

Surely you mean Bacon?

Has there ever been another "family like this? Can anyone say DNA?

To be honest, I wish such testing would happen. I believe all but a die-hard few would accept the results, no matter which way it went.

[Greg Parker]

Martin Blank:

Marina once said she had two husbands. ("I had two husbands: Lee, the father of my children, an affectionate and kind man; and Harvey Oswald, the assassin of President Kennedy") Did she get them mixed up innocently? Or was it purposeful. Who was the other in addition to Harvey? Was she with both Harvey and Lee?

This quote was supposedly made to a French journalist. A quick google tells me the only people who mention this alleged quote are pushing the two Oswald theory. Two alarm bells right there. The jourmalist is unnamed and no one but Armstrong and his supporters use the "quote".

Greg, can you tell me where Armstrong used that quote?

If he didn't, I apologise. I was relying on this:

The Final Word

I leave you with these mysterious words from the widow, Marina.

"I had two husbands: Lee, the father of my children, an affectionate and kind man; and Harvey Oswald, the assassin of President Kennedy."

Sources: Armstrong, John, Harvey and Lee; Marrs, Jim, Crossfire; Douglass, James, JFK and the Unspeakable; www.history-matters.com

http://oswaldsmother...ude-part-4.html

I saw that when I Googled. Those sources were for that author's entire essay. I don't believe that Armstrong

ever used that quote and would have to be shown where he did in order to be convinced otherwise.

Fair enough, Mike.

I would like to see the quote in its original form and context along with the name of the French journalist to believe it was said. And if it was a true quote, I'd like to hear what Marina meant by it before I would countenance accepting the conveniently very literal interpretation adopted by supporters of Armstrong's theory (even if not Armstrong himself).

Seems to me, a typical quote made to indicate (for example) that the nice axe murderer who lived next door turned out to be quite the Jeckyl & Hyde.

[Greg Parker]

Jack OMG (for all the kids out there who might be reading and who really "dig" that kinda cool lingo. I just want you to know, I'm hip! )

Marguerite went through an aging process, Heaven help us all!!!

[Doug Weldon]

Greg goes into ultra violent mode whenever Armstrong is brought up.

Please explain one Frank Kudlaty.

If one reads the WR,pgs 678-80, one will see that the official story--which Greg Parker supports along with Len Colby--is that after his mom pulled him out of the New York scene, Oswald sent to school at Beauregard Junior High in New Orleans. He then attended tenth grade at Warren Easton High School also in New Orleans.

This is where Kudlaty comes in. Along with several others. Including Robert Oswald. See,if you read the summary of Oswald's education in the WR he goes from Ridglea West Elementary to New York to Beauregard. THere is no mention of any junior high school or high school in Fort Worth. Which makes Kudlaty an utterly fascinating witness. Let me explain why.

In 1959, Robert Oswald mentioned to a reporter that his brother Lee attended Stripling JH in Fort Worth. (Star Telegram, 10/29/59) Three years later, in 1962, Robert Oswald said the same thing. (ibid, 6/8/62) Could he really be mistaken twice?

Nope. Because Kudlaty backs him up in spades. On the morning after the assassination, assistant principal Frank Kudlaty was phoned by his boss, Principal Lucas. He was to meet two FBI agents at Stripling. He did and began to look up Oswald's file before the FBI agents got there. Sure enough, Lee was there for one semester. Then the two agents got there and asked him for the file. He turned it over. (Armstrong Harvey and Lee, pgs. 98-99)

Now before Colby uses his usual "trash the guy's reputation" slam, let us note: Kudlaty went on to become the superintendent of schools in Waco. Then in 1979, the State Department picked a list of 25 outstanding education managers to go to China to observe their system. Kudlaty was one of them.

Armstrong later located three students from the school who recalled Oswald.

Kudlaty is so credible that when the Texas Monthly did its hatchet job on Armstrong--similar to what Greg and Colby to here--even they had to admit that they could not lay a hand on Kudlaty. In fact, these witnesses were so credible that the editor--like Ben Bradlee with David Leigh-- took the original writer off the story. He then rewrote it himself. The problem was he knew Kudlaty so he couldn't question his veracity. The guy was just too much of a paragon.

As per Greg's categorical statement of there being no question that the Marguerite we all know is beyond doubt Oswald's real mom, please take a look at the photo of her taken right after her wedding to Ekdahl, Then look at any of the pictures taken in the sixties.

People do not shrink five inches in 15 years unless stricken with polio or TB. Which she was not.

It is incredible to me the number of people who trash Armstrong's book without ever reading it through.

Jim:

I am reading "Harvey and Lee' now for the second time. There is no possible way that any intelligent and reasonable person could have read the book thoroughly and then trash it. People are not comparing Oswald and Marguerite at diffent times in their life but at the same time. Even as John was writing the book and talking with me there was some evidence that John was more impressed with than I. However, in its totality, I cannot fathom how thouroughly John followed and put the evidence together. It is amazing research. The only small criticism I had was that Armstrong had located John Pic (now deceased) and left a message that he would like to talk with him. Not getting a reply John let it go. I would have been at Pic's door.However, it is part of Armstrong's personality to act as he did. Simply an incredible book.

Best,

Doug Weldon

[Jack White]

Jack OMG (for all the kids out there who might be reading and who really "dig" that kinda cool lingo. I just want you to know, I'm hip! )

Marguerite went through an aging process, Heaven help us all!!!

Parker is visually impaired. He probably does not recognize his own mother.

Jack

[Greg Parker]

Greg goes into ultra violent mode whenever Armstrong is brought up.

No. That's not quite true, Jim. I do get a tad irritated by the way the theory is presented as historical fact. Can someone explain that to me? Because that is how brainwashed cult sheeple act... reciting the Gospel according to whomever the latest prophet in touch with the Universe happens to be... on the other hand, if someone actually acted rationally and presented the theory for discussion AS A THEORY, I could get engaged in that...

Please explain one Frank Kudlaty.

I can explain him in one sentence: " Frank Kudlaty, the assistant principal at Stripling has been a friend of mine since the 1940s, when he was a college classmate." Jack White, Feb 10, 2007. If there was nothing to hide, then the relationship should have been declared in the book. Jack, after all, had helped Armstrong with some of the work on the project. Instead, Jack has twisted every which way to back away from that statement. He would not feel the need to do so unless he realised the damage it does to the credibility of the story.

If one reads the WR,pgs 678-80, one will see that the official story--which Greg Parker supports along with Len Colby--is that after his mom pulled him out of the New York scene, Oswald sent to school at Beauregard Junior High in New Orleans. He then attended tenth grade at Warren Easton High School also in New Orleans.

Why not? The documentary record supports it. Lumping me in with Len Colby is not nice, btw. It is a transparent effort to lessen my credibility via (a false) association (no offence Lenny! )

This is where Kudlaty comes in. Along with several others. Including Robert Oswald. See,if you read the summary of Oswald's education in the WR he goes from Ridglea West Elementary to New York to Beauregard. THere is no mention of any junior high school or high school in Fort Worth. Which makes Kudlaty an utterly fascinating witness. Let me explain why.

In 1959, Robert Oswald mentioned to a reporter that his brother Lee attended Stripling JH in Fort Worth. (Star Telegram, 10/29/59) Three years later, in 1962, Robert Oswald said the same thing. (ibid, 6/8/62) Could he really be mistaken twice?

Why not? He has repeated as fact the proveable error regarding Lee and "I Led 3 lives" a number of times. Repeating mistakes doesn't tend to improve them. OTOH, repeating stuff is a known method of propagandists. Repeat something often enough, and some are bound to buy into it...

Nope. Because Kudlaty backs him up in spades. On the morning after the assassination, assistant principal Frank Kudlaty was phoned by his boss, Principal Lucas. He was to meet two FBI agents at Stripling. He did and began to look up Oswald's file before the FBI agents got there. Sure enough, Lee was there for one semester. Then the two agents got there and asked him for the file. He turned it over. (Armstrong Harvey and Lee, pgs. 98-99)

Now before Colby uses his usual "trash the guy's reputation" slam, let us note: Kudlaty went on to become the superintendent of schools in Waco. Then in 1979, the State Department picked a list of 25 outstanding education managers to go to China to observe their system. Kudlaty was one of them.

Armstrong later located three students from the school who recalled Oswald.

I guarantee I could convince 3 people out of the average school population that they remember someone they never met.

Kudlaty is so credible that when the Texas Monthly did its hatchet job on Armstrong--similar to what Greg and Colby to here--even they had to admit that they could not lay a hand on Kudlaty.

That's because his relationship with Jack White was never disclosed.

In fact, these witnesses were so credible that the editor--like Ben Bradlee with David Leigh-- took the original writer off the story. He then rewrote it himself. The problem was he knew Kudlaty so he couldn't question his veracity. The guy was just too much of a paragon.

As per Greg's categorical statement of there being no question that the Marguerite we all know is beyond doubt Oswald's real mom, please take a look at the photo of her taken right after her wedding to Ekdahl, Then look at any of the pictures taken in the sixties.

You take issue with me making a categorical statement about Marguerite, but have no problem with all the categorical statements made in relation to this THEORY which attempt to give it the aura of historical fact???? Get a grip Jim.

People do not shrink five inches in 15 years unless stricken with polio or TB. Which she was not.

Judging from errors made in other photo measurements of height, I can't have any faith she did in fact shrink 5 inches.

It is incredible to me the number of people who trash Armstrong's book without ever reading it through.

I only debunk those parts of it that are on the net and are demonstrably wrong. I have also acknowledged he did some good work.

Edited November 17, 2010 by Greg Parker

[Greg Parker]

Jack OMG (for all the kids out there who might be reading and who really "dig" that kinda cool lingo. I just want you to know, I'm hip! )

Marguerite went through an aging process, Heaven help us all!!!

Parker is visually impaired. He probably does not recognize his own mother.

Jack

Not that I give a toss what you say to me, Jack... but before replying to others in a like manner, you might want to check out the latest version of the forum rules.

Edited November 17, 2010 by Greg Parker

[Greg Parker]

Sources: Armstrong, John, Harvey and Lee; Marrs, Jim, Crossfire; Douglass, James, JFK and the Unspeakable; www.history-matters.com

Reliable Sources, including ALIENS FROM OUTER SPACE!

Ray, I bet you never played cricket with a straight bat as a kid, either...

[Greg Parker]

Jim:

I am reading "Harvey and Lee' now for the second time. There is no possible way that any intelligent and reasonable person could have read the book thoroughly and then trash it.

I have not trashed the book. I have debunked parts of the theory as they appear on web sites or in forums such as this.

People are not comparing Oswald and Marguerite at diffent times in their life but at the same time.

Oh? Could have fooled me. From Jack White's post #19 showing a series of photos of Marguerite: "The YOUNGER woman at left.... which of the photos above depict the SAME WOMAN MANY YEARS LATER". In which universe is that not a comparing Marguerite at different times of her life? You guys crack me up...

Even as John was writing the book and talking with me there was some evidence that John was more impressed with than I. However, in its totality, I cannot fathom how thouroughly John followed and put the evidence together. It is amazing research. The only small criticism I had was that Armstrong had located John Pic (now deceased) and left a message that he would like to talk with him. Not getting a reply John let it go. I would have been at Pic's door.However, it is part of Armstrong's personality to act as he did. Simply an incredible book.

"To act as he did" includes omitting information critical to ethical historical scholarship - that is omitting any reference to a very longstanding friendship between Jack White who had been assisting Armstrong, and one of his star witnesses. I've asked your professional opinion about that a number of times. You have declined to answer. Care to now?

Best,

Doug Weldon

[Martin Blank]

Welcome to a fellow fan of John Armstrong.

Jack

Thanks. I didn't realize there was such a great divide on Armstrong. I think he hit a rich vein, though.

Marty

[Len Colby]

Greg goes into ultra violent mode whenever Armstrong is brought up.

Please explain one Frank Kudlaty.

If one reads the WR,pgs 678-80, one will see that the official story--which Greg Parker supports along with Len Colby--is that after his mom pulled him out of the New York scene, Oswald sent to school at Beauregard Junior High in New Orleans. He then attended tenth grade at Warren Easton High School also in New Orleans.

This is where Kudlaty comes in. Along with several others. Including Robert Oswald. See,if you read the summary of Oswald's education in the WR he goes from Ridglea West Elementary to New York to Beauregard. THere is no mention of any junior high school or high school in Fort Worth. Which makes Kudlaty an utterly fascinating witness. Let me explain why.

In 1959, Robert Oswald mentioned to a reporter that his brother Lee attended Stripling JH in Fort Worth. (Star Telegram, 10/29/59) Three years later, in 1962, Robert Oswald said the same thing. (ibid, 6/8/62) Could he really be mistaken twice?

Nope. Because Kudlaty backs him up in spades. On the morning after the assassination, assistant principal Frank Kudlaty was phoned by his boss, Principal Lucas. He was to meet two FBI agents at Stripling. He did and began to look up Oswald's file before the FBI agents got there. Sure enough, Lee was there for one semester. Then the two agents got there and asked him for the file. He turned it over. (Armstrong Harvey and Lee, pgs. 98-99)

Now before Colby uses his usual "trash the guy's reputation" slam, let us note: Kudlaty went on to become the superintendent of schools in Waco. Then in 1979, the State Department picked a list of 25 outstanding education managers to go to China to observe their system. Kudlaty was one of them.

Armstrong later located three students from the school who recalled Oswald.

Kudlaty is so credible that when the Texas Monthly did its hatchet job on Armstrong--similar to what Greg and Colby do here--even they had to admit that they could not lay a hand on Kudlaty. In fact, these witnesses were so credible that the editor--like Ben Bradlee with David Leigh-- took the original writer off the story. He then rewrote it himself. The problem was he knew Kudlaty so he couldn't question his veracity. The guy was just too much of a paragon.

As per Greg's categorical statement of there being no question that the Marguerite we all know is beyond doubt Oswald's real mom, please take a look at the photo of her taken right after her wedding to Ekdahl, Then look at any of the pictures taken in the sixties.

People do not shrink five inches in 15 years unless stricken with polio or TB. Which she was not.

It is incredible to me the number of people who trash Armstrong's book without ever reading it through.

Amazing that you dismiss the WCR's central conclusions but want us to unquestioningly accept its minutiae. Might they have missed or omitted that he spent "one semester" at a school it FTW?

And who besides Armstrong spoke to Kudlaty? Did he say exactly when LHO supposedly studied there? Did Armstrong find any students from the school who remembered LHO?

Please provide the direct quotes and citations for Robert Oswald.

Oh and please tell us how you determined Margaruite's heights in the various photos.

Edited November 17, 2010 by Len Colby

[Len Colby]

Martin - Besides Kathy C., Jack and you I don't think many people take the 2 Oswalds theory seriously.

Your talk of John Pic seems to have gotten Greg all excited though because he's been convinced for years the man was an itel op.

"Yes. Pic's notation on mileage for the "get-together" indicates it was official business."

Len, please feel free to add the quote to your sig.

Meanwhile, those with more enquiring minds can go here to see why Len is so eager to put up the "nothing to see here" sign

You could just provided a link to this thread were I pointed out all the holes in your theory. Tell us again about how Marina (a CIA asset) had listening device implanted in her tooth to keep tabs on her husband (another CIA asset) during his meeting with his half brother (yet another itel type).

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=5228&st=0