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THE KENNEDY CASKET CONSPIRACY


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I don't know enough about the casket incidents to give an informed opinion, but I would like to offer up some points of discussion.

Is it possible that some of the time discrepancies may have originated from the times coming from the Dallas teams, who's watches may have still been on central time? Considering what was going on, I'm guessing that resetting their watches to eastern time may have been a low priority and something that some of the team may have forgotten to do.

Also, is it possible that some of the casket deliveries may have been empty caskets being brought in?

The paper from the funeral home mentions that the body was removed (for embalming) from a shipping casket. Is it possible that Kennedy's body may have been placed into a shipping casket temporarily after the autopsy and before the funeral home took charge of it?

JWK

Edited by J. William King
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I don't know enough about the casket incidents to give an informed opinion, but I would like to offer up some points of discussion.

Is it possible that some of the time discrepancies may have originated from the times coming from the Dallas teams, who's watches may have still been on central time? Considering what was going on, I'm guessing that resetting their watches to eastern time may have been a low priority and something that some of the team may have forgotten to do.

Also, is it possible that some of the casket deliveries may have been empty caskets being brought in?

The paper from the funeral home mentions that the body was removed (for embalming) from a shipping casket. Is it possible that Kennedy's body may have been placed into a shipping casket temporarily after the autopsy and before the funeral home took charge of it?

JWK

quote''The paper from the funeral home mentions that the body was removed (for embalming) from a shipping casket. Is it possible that Kennedy's body may have been placed into a shipping casket temporarily after the autopsy and before the funeral home took charge of it? ''

JWK

Good question William, i wondered myself, but on checking i could not find where such was ever mentioned, amongst the information given by any of the witnesses. i would not have been surprised if they would have at parkland, because the body was still draining, but no, the statements there all refer to the coffin. if grey cells are working i believe he was interviewed, and may have been asked to decribe such, i am thinking of David LIFTON'S VIDEO INTERVIEWS...In Best Evidence.. if i recall correctly he asked each to describe such that they saw him in or placed in or taken out of, i think they are on the utube...thanks take care..b

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I don't know enough about the casket incidents to give an informed opinion, but I would like to offer up some points of discussion.

Is it possible that some of the time discrepancies may have originated from the times coming from the Dallas teams, who's watches may have still been on central time? Considering what was going on, I'm guessing that resetting their watches to eastern time may have been a low priority and something that some of the team may have forgotten to do.

Also, is it possible that some of the casket deliveries may have been empty caskets being brought in?

The paper from the funeral home mentions that the body was removed (for embalming) from a shipping casket. Is it possible that Kennedy's body may have been placed into a shipping casket temporarily after the autopsy and before the funeral home took charge of it?

JWK

quote''The paper from the funeral home mentions that the body was removed (for embalming) from a shipping casket. Is it possible that Kennedy's body may have been placed into a shipping casket temporarily after the autopsy and before the funeral home took charge of it? ''

JWK

Good question William, i wondered myself, but on checking i could not find where such was ever mentioned, amongst the information given by any of the witnesses. i would not have been surprised if they would have at parkland, because the body was still draining, but no, the statements there all refer to the coffin. if grey cells are working i believe he was interviewed, and may have been asked to decribe such, i am thinking of David LIFTON'S VIDEO INTERVIEWS...In Best Evidence.. if i recall correctly he asked each to describe such that they saw him in or placed in or taken out of, i think they are on the utube...thanks take care..b

this may help with the information; tom robinson; http://www.history-m...CA_Robinson.htm

b

Edited by Bernice Moore
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William here isTom's written descriptions of the wounds he saw fwit..b

Thank you, Bernice. Am I wrong in assuming that the other document you have in the previous post is from the funeral home? Or is that a government document that the hospital uses for a death? That is what made me think that maybe the President's body was placed in the shipping casket after the autopsy, then removed from it by the funeral home personnel for the preparation work.

I find it interesting that Mr. Robinson stated he "thinks skull full of plaster of paris". I'm assuming that he means that he didn't do it himself. I wonder who did?

As for the time discrepancies, my statements wouldn't explain the 6:35/6:55 differences, but might explain the 6:55/8:00 time problem.

I'm not trying to say that there isn't something funny going on. Especially since there are at least two bodies being delivered. However, I also realize that people's emotions and excitement were running very high at the time, and sometime as simple as resetting a watch might be causing lots of confusion with us, now. Just trying to rule out simple human error so we can concentrate on the real issues.

One other thing, however. Early on, there were reports from Dallas about a Secret Service agent being killed. One station even said it was a "confirmed report". I've always dismissed this as confused reporting at the time, but now I'm wondering if that may have been the other casket? It may also explain reports of other activity taking place on the opposite side of the plane when it landed at Andrews.

JWK

Edited by J. William King
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William here isTom's written descriptions of the wounds he saw fwit..b

Thank you, Bernice. Am I wrong in assuming that the other document you have in the previous post is from the funeral home? Or is that a government document that the hospital uses for a death? That is what made me think that maybe the President's body was placed in the shipping casket after the autopsy, then removed from it by the funeral home personnel for the preparation work.

I find it interesting that Mr. Robinson stated he "thinks skull full of plaster of paris". I'm assuming that he means that he didn't do it himself. I wonder who did?

As for the time discrepancies, my statements wouldn't explain the 6:35/6:55 differences, but might explain the 6:55/8:00 time problem.

I'm not trying to say that there isn't something funny going on. Especially since there are at least two bodies being delivered. However, I also realize that people's emotions and excitement were running very high at the time, and sometime as simple as resetting a watch might be causing lots of confusion with us, now. Just trying to rule out simple human error so we can concentrate on the real issues.

One other thing, however. Early on, there were reports from Dallas about a Secret Service agent being killed. One station even said it was a "confirmed report". I've always dismissed this as confused reporting at the time, but now I'm wondering if that may have been the other casket?

JWK

hi william i really do not know good question, i will ask d.l..he should be able to set me straight, i have enlarged it and i cannot, before see the very top,but at the bottom it simply has a number, also will have a look at mfs it probably was found there or the history achive in the first place, i understand, human emotions especially under any type of a sudden death situation,one can become completely at a loss of even recall for some time after, and those involved do go about their duties as robots, but not funtioning on all levels consciously, but doing what needs to be on a form of automatic drive,that sets in, the subconscious takes over,...the ss death report was also in the newspapers as well as telly and radio, before it was found to be incorrect but there are still some and articles out there as well as research that still put it forth, it is after all in the end up to the individual what they believe , question and discard...here below i enlarged it for you, it may help in seeing a closer look, thanks take care b..ps here also is the bill for the coffin...fyi..

Edited by Bernice Moore
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William here isTom's written descriptions of the wounds he saw fwit..b

Thank you, Bernice. Am I wrong in assuming that the other document you have in the previous post is from the funeral home? Or is that a government document that the hospital uses for a death? That is what made me think that maybe the President's body was placed in the shipping casket after the autopsy, then removed from it by the funeral home personnel for the preparation work.

I find it interesting that Mr. Robinson stated he "thinks skull full of plaster of paris". I'm assuming that he means that he didn't do it himself. I wonder who did?

As for the time discrepancies, my statements wouldn't explain the 6:35/6:55 differences, but might explain the 6:55/8:00 time problem.

I'm not trying to say that there isn't something funny going on. Especially since there are at least two bodies being delivered. However, I also realize that people's emotions and excitement were running very high at the time, and sometime as simple as resetting a watch might be causing lots of confusion with us, now. Just trying to rule out simple human error so we can concentrate on the real issues.

One other thing, however. Early on, there were reports from Dallas about a Secret Service agent being killed. One station even said it was a "confirmed report". I've always dismissed this as confused reporting at the time, but now I'm wondering if that may have been the other casket?

JWK

hi william i really do not know good question, i will ask d.l..he should be able to set me straight, i have enlarged it and i cannot, before see the very top,but at the bottom it simply has a number, also will have a look at mfs it probably was found there or the history achive in the first place, i understand, human emotions especially under any type of a sudden death situation,one can become completely at a loss of even recall for some time after, and those involved do go about their duties as robots, but not funtioning on all levels consciously, but doing what needs to be on a form of automatic drive,that sets in, the subconscious takes over,...the ss death report was also in the newspapers as well as telly and radio, before it was found to be incorrect but there are still some and articles out there as well as research that still put it forth, it is after all in the end up to the individual what they believe , question and discard...here below i enlarged it for you, it may help in seeing a closer look, thanks take care b..ps here also is the bill for the coffin...fyi..

Thanks Bernice,

I've seen the O'Neil bill for the bronze casket before, and that is from Dallas. The second document appears to be from the Washington funeral home detailing their items. It was also filled out afterward, as it mentions that the vault was delivered to Arlington.

From what I gather from the document, the funeral home did the preparations at Bethesda, starting around 11pm. They removed the body from a metal shipping casket, but this was after the autopsy, which is why I'm figuring that it was a temporary container. It doesn't imply that he arrived at Bethesda in the shipping casket. The mahogany casket arrived at 2am and I'm assuming that he was placed into it at that time.

JWK

Edited by J. William King
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William here isTom's written descriptions of the wounds he saw fwit..b

Thank you, Bernice. Am I wrong in assuming that the other document you have in the previous post is from the funeral home? Or is that a government document that the hospital uses for a death? That is what made me think that maybe the President's body was placed in the shipping casket after the autopsy, then removed from it by the funeral home personnel for the preparation work.

I find it interesting that Mr. Robinson stated he "thinks skull full of plaster of paris". I'm assuming that he means that he didn't do it himself. I wonder who did?

As for the time discrepancies, my statements wouldn't explain the 6:35/6:55 differences, but might explain the 6:55/8:00 time problem.

I'm not trying to say that there isn't something funny going on. Especially since there are at least two bodies being delivered. However, I also realize that people's emotions and excitement were running very high at the time, and sometime as simple as resetting a watch might be causing lots of confusion with us, now. Just trying to rule out simple human error so we can concentrate on the real issues.

One other thing, however. Early on, there were reports from Dallas about a Secret Service agent being killed. One station even said it was a "confirmed report". I've always dismissed this as confused reporting at the time, but now I'm wondering if that may have been the other casket?

JWK

hi william i really do not know, good question, i will ask d.l..he should be able to set me straight, i have enlarged it and i cannot, before nor now see the very top,but at the bottom it simply has a number, also will have a look at mfs it probably was found there or the history achive in the first place, i understand, human emotions especially under any type of a sudden death situation,one can become completely at a loss or even recall for some time after, and those involved do go about their duties as robots, but not functioning on all levels consciously, but doing what needs to be on a form of automatic drive,that sets in, the subconscious takes over,...the ss death report was also in the newspapers as well as telly and radio, before it was found to be incorrect but there are still some and articles out there as well as research that still put it forth, it is after all in the end up to the individual what they believe , question and discard...here below i enlarged it for you, it may help in seeing a closer look, thanks take care b..ps here also is the bill for the coffin...fyi..

Thanks Bernice,

I've seen the O'Neil bill for the bronze casket before, and that is from Dallas. The second document appears to be from the Washington funeral home detailing their items. It was also filled out afterward, as it mentions that the vault was delivered to Arlington.

From what I gather from the document, the funeral home did the preparations at Bethesda, starting around 11pm. They removed the body from a metal shipping casket, but this was after the autopsy, which is why I'm figuring that it was a temporary container. It doesn't imply that he arrived at Bethesda in the shipping casket. The mahogany casket arrived at 2am and I'm assuming that he was placed into it at that time.

JWK

hi i have contacted d.l am hoping he can clarify for me, us. there are , were witnesses to the fact he arrived in the metal shipping casket, so i cannot see why it would mean he was simply placed in one temporarily,but i cannot say for sure either, hopefully david will make all crystal clear, then again what in this is, crystal clear except that a president was murdered at high noon, in a city within the country that had elected him, hopefully David can do so...i found this bit of info posted by don thomas, thank you , at one time re the dead ss agent, fwiw, the dpd was not clear either.and perhaps this is where the confusion about the ss agent all began, possible....for now...b

http://www.history-m...Vol23_0484a.htm

At approximately 2:37pm, Sergeant R.E. Dugger (18) radios in on Channel 2:

"I have Judge Johnston here with (illegible) Parkland. Was there just one (illegible) from the shooting from the Presid… party?"

The following exchange takes place:

Dispatcher (illegible) I had on it 18

Dispatcher: 18, There were some more injured, but I don't know who they were, or how severe.

Dugger: I didn't read you. You know anything about an injured Secret Service Agent?

Dispatcher: No, I do not. There were some more injured, but I don't know who they were.

Patrolman J.W. Brooks (174): One of the Secret Service men on the field – Elm and Houston; said that it came over his teletype that one of the Secret Service men had been killed.

Dispatcher: Well, 10-4. I don't have that information.

Dugger: I believe this is going to be incorrect. He's not at Parkland. Can you have someone canvas the major hospitals please?

Garbled

Patrolman L.H. Marshall (139): I have a man out here that doesn't know anything about that.

I believe that Patrolman Marshall was at Love Field.

And in her report of activities 11/22-11/24/63 SEPARATE from JFK and

Connally, found in 21H pp. 213-215, Nurse Bertha Lozano would write:

"A technician came to the desk and asked me to expect a private patient

who was bleeding…Blood technicians came to ask me who "Mr. X" was who did not

have an E.R. number. Hematology also came with the same problem and was told the

same thing."

also the older thread on the dead ss agent..where dons information was posted.

thanks for now b.

Edited by Bernice Moore
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After doing some reading up on the subject, and being armed with just enough knowledge to be dangerous, I humbly submit an "Occam's razor" sequence of events.

Gawler Funeral home receives a call at 4:25pm EST (MD129) to go to Bethesda to handle the President's funeral preparations. This being a "first call" situation, they take a hearse and a shipping casket with them, assuming that the body will be taken back to the funeral home for preparation as would normally be the case. Four people (Mr. Van Heasen, Mr. Stroblz, Mr. Robinson, Mr. Hagen) are in the hearse. Being a funeral home and considering the circumstances, they were probably wearing suits and carrying the smocks to be put on over the suits during pickup and transportation procedures. These four men may be the "men in suits" witnessed getting out of the hearse, possibly accompanied by a couple of agents picked up when trying to pass through the hospital gates. This is most likely the 6:35pm sighting. The empty shipping casket is carried inside by the sailors.

The President's casket arrives by ambulance at 6:55pm and after dropping Mrs. Kennedy and Robert Kennedy off at the front door, is driven around back to unload the President's body in the bronze Dallas casket at 7:17pm (time, according to Lifton).

I have no idea why 45 minutes pass, as reported by Lt. Byrd (MD163). It's possible that preparations for the autopsy, and gathering of personnel were being conducted and the body was left in the casket until everything was ready. It's also possible that this is when the body alteration, if any, was done. Doing it at the hospital makes more sense than doing it on the airplane.

After the autopsy, the body was placed in the shipping casket to be transported back to Gawler Funeral Home, which would be standard procedure in a normal death, but it was decided to do the preparations at Bethesda. The four men from Gawler were brought in, and had to remove Kennedy's body from the shipping casket and start their work. I'm also guessing that some time had passed between the end of the autopsy and the beginning of the embalming and preparation.

MD129 mentions the mahogany casket being delivered at 2am, which may account for the third casket report. It's possible that it may have come earlier, but the Gawler team at Bethesda didn't actually see it untl 2am.

As I said, this is sort of an "Occam's Razor" approach to the timeline. Feel free to poke holes in it all you wish. I just have the feeling that the whole "body in the shipping casket" thing may have it's origins with the mention of it in MD129 and the accounts of the Gawler team. It's my feeling that the shipping casket was only used for a short time, between the end of the autopsy and the embalming.

JWK

Edited by J. William King
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After doing some reading up on the subject, and being armed with just enough knowledge to be dangerous, I humbly submit an "Occam's razor" sequence of events. ....

I've always been given to understand that the idea behind Occam's Razor is not, as some people tend to characterize it, that "the simplest explanation is usually the best" as in "it must be the way it happened," but rather "don't complicate things unnecessarily," as in "don't confuse people with every detail when a synopsis will do."

Without going back to compare and contrast, while I like the "simple" possibility of the white-smocked-and-suited casket arrival being folks from Grawlyer's, it strikes me as being inconsistent with some testimonies or statements as detailed by Hornberger's "Kennedy Casket Conspiracy" that opened this thread. Why (if I remember its contents correctly) would USSS agents go out to "escort" an obviously empty casket into the morgue before the Boss's body was even brought in, and then, if they had and recognized the error (or knew what they were doing at the onset: carrying in for the undertakers), carry on as if that empty casket was the Dallas casket?

Then there is the question of why, if the body was removed from a metal shipping casket (by others unseen by the mortician) prior to the body's funeral prep, was an "interim" casket used if the final one was already on-site? Why put it in anything ... in a morgue?

The article also details and provides links to statements of military teams who each stated that they had unloaded a casket from the back of the morgue and brought it in, one being at 1835 hrs (6:35 pm) and the other at or after 2000 hrs (8:00 pm), some 85 minutes apart. The latter makes detailed statements of their actions from Andrews to Arlington (including riding Army helicopters from Andrews to Bethesda), while in the former case, the NCOIC states that he didn't see the 6:35 shipping casket opened, he was led to believe it to be that containing the President's remains and got a somewhat-cryptic response from Boswell the next day ("you were there, you ought to know") when he'd asked the good doctor which of the caskets contained JFK's body: he was only there for one of them.

Dick Russell used an interview with Doug Horne as the final chapter in his recent compendium, On the Trail of the JFK Assassins. In it, Horne talks about the depositions of the autopsists, and characterizes Humes as "slippery" and "evasive" in his answers, and Finck as "scared" (not the "lion" he was characterized as by JAMA and in his Shaw testimony) and "covering his ass;" Boswell, he said, "gave up the store," almost a description of someone who knows there's something else to say, but who likes to share secrets on the sly (poke-poke, wink-wink), since he doesn't admit anything out of the ordinary overtly. The above quote seems consistent with such a description (tho' in truth, while I read all of the autopsists' ARRB testimonies, I didn't find it easy enough to follow/keep track of to form my own opinion one way or the other), and does not rule it out.

Horne's later synthesis of these events seems to make sense to me, even if he didn't(?) expound upon the whys and wherefores of such a subterfuge if it occurred.

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