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The BAG revisited


David Josephs
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There's the original bag, which according to WCR is both CE626 and CE142

There is a replica bag CE364

This is this testimony by Day that the bag he wrote on was the bag they found

edit: btw - there is NO MENTION of CE364 in Day's Q&A... He somehow reads his words from CE626 or CE142... I guess.

Mr. BELIN. I will now hand you what has been marked as Commission Exhibit 626 and ask you to state if you know what this is, and also appears to be marked as Commission Exhibit 142.

Mr. DAY. This is the sack found on the sixth floor in the southeast corner of the building on November 22, 1963.

Mr. BELIN. Do you have any identification on that to so indicate?

Mr. DAY. It has my name on it, and it also has other writing that I put on there for the information of the FBI.

Mr. BELIN. Could you read what you wrote on there?

Mr. DAY. "Found next to the sixth floor window gun fired from. May have been used to carry gun. Lieutenant J. C. Day."

Mr. BELIN. When did you write that?

Mr. DAY. I wrote that at the time the sack was found before it left our possession.

Mr. BELIN. All right, anything else that you wrote on there?

Mr. DAY. When the sack was released on November 22 to the FBI about 11:45 p.m., I put further information to the FBI reading as follows: "FBI: Has been dusted with metallic magnetic powder on outside only. Inside has not been processed. Lieut J. C. Day."

Mr. BELIN. Did you find anything, any print of any kind, in connection with the processing of this?

Mr. DAY. No legible prints were found with the powder, no.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether any legible prints were found by any other means or any other place?

Mr. DAY. There is a legible print on it now. They were on there when it was returned to me from the FBI on November 24.

Now I can allow that Day does not write this on the bag until back at the station seeing that there is no writing at all where it should be in photos of the bag leaving the TSBD. You can see that the tape at the right on CE364 and the tape at the top middle of the TSBD photo are similiar. We should see writing at the top left of that bag if Day wrote this before leaving. Okay, maybe he didn't.

Then again....

Mr. BELIN. What did you do with the bag after you found it and you put this writing on after you dusted it?

Mr. DAY. I released it to the FBI agent.

Mr. BELIN. Did you take it down to the station with you?

Mr. DAY. I didn't take it with me. I left it with the men when I left. I left Detectives Hicks and Studebaker to bring this in with them when they brought other equipment in.

So in reality... this bag should have at least some writing on it and it should be plainly seen... and if it was folded flat on the ground, why didn't they photograph it, and why did they obviously open it and stick something in it to keep it erect? :blink:

But how is it that CE364 is the "REPLICA bag" http://history-matters.com/archive/contents/wc/contents_wh16.htm

CE 364 - Replica of the paper bag found on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building shortly after ...

yet this is the one with the writing while the bag at NARA, the original bag supposedly, has no writing on it?

the paper samples taken that day match the "original" bag but not the "replica" bag since that paper was taken by the FBI in December from supposedly so different a batch of paper as to be NOT identical in characteristics to the "original" bag's paper. :huh:

If Oswald did not take the bag home thursday night with Frazier... when/how did he make it and get it home... and if paper is replaced as often as they said, he had to have made the bag that week... there is no evidence for that at all.

So which Commission Exhibit is which?

Edited by David Josephs
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There's the original bag, which according to WCR is both CE626 and CE142

There is a replica bag CE364

This is this testimony by Day that the bag he wrote on was the bag they found

edit: btw - there is NO MENTION of CE364 in Day's Q&A... He somehow reads his words from CE626 or CE142... I guess.

Mr. BELIN. I will now hand you what has been marked as Commission Exhibit 626 and ask you to state if you know what this is, and also appears to be marked as Commission Exhibit 142.

Mr. DAY. This is the sack found on the sixth floor in the southeast corner of the building on November 22, 1963.

Mr. BELIN. Do you have any identification on that to so indicate?

Mr. DAY. It has my name on it, and it also has other writing that I put on there for the information of the FBI.

Mr. BELIN. Could you read what you wrote on there?

Mr. DAY. "Found next to the sixth floor window gun fired from. May have been used to carry gun. Lieutenant J. C. Day."

Mr. BELIN. When did you write that?

Mr. DAY. I wrote that at the time the sack was found before it left our possession.

Mr. BELIN. All right, anything else that you wrote on there?

Mr. DAY. When the sack was released on November 22 to the FBI about 11:45 p.m., I put further information to the FBI reading as follows: "FBI: Has been dusted with metallic magnetic powder on outside only. Inside has not been processed. Lieut J. C. Day."

Mr. BELIN. Did you find anything, any print of any kind, in connection with the processing of this?

Mr. DAY. No legible prints were found with the powder, no.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether any legible prints were found by any other means or any other place?

Mr. DAY. There is a legible print on it now. They were on there when it was returned to me from the FBI on November 24.

Now I can allow that Day does not write this on the bag until back at the station seeing that there is no writing at all where it should be in photos of the bag leaving the TSBD. You can see that the tape at the right on CE364 and the tape at the top middle of the TSBD photo are similiar. We should see writing at the top left of that bag if Day wrote this before leaving. Okay, maybe he didn't.

Then again....

Mr. BELIN. What did you do with the bag after you found it and you put this writing on after you dusted it?

Mr. DAY. I released it to the FBI agent.

Mr. BELIN. Did you take it down to the station with you?

Mr. DAY. I didn't take it with me. I left it with the men when I left. I left Detectives Hicks and Studebaker to bring this in with them when they brought other equipment in.

So in reality... this bag should have at least some writing on it and it should be plainly seen... and if it was folded flat on the ground, why didn't they photograph it, and why did they obviously open it and stick something in it to keep it erect? :blink:

But how is it that CE364 is the "REPLICA bag" http://history-matters.com/archive/contents/wc/contents_wh16.htm

CE 364 - Replica of the paper bag found on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building shortly after ...

yet this is the one with the writing while the bag at NARA, the original bag supposedly, has no writing on it?

the paper samples taken that day match the "original" bag but not the "replica" bag since that paper was taken by the FBI in December from supposedly so different a batch of paper as to be NOT identical in characteristics to the "original" bag's paper. :huh:

If Oswald did not take the bag home thursday night with Frazier... when/how did he make it and get it home... and if paper is replaced as often as they said, he had to have made the bag that week... there is no evidence for that at all.

So which Commission Exhibit is which?

David, some of this is discussed in my chapter on the bag. While you can't see Day's writing on the non-taped side of the bag removed from the building, or either side of the bag in the FBI's first photos, it is visible on the taped side of the bag photographed in Dallas on the 26th. It may have been added later.

shiningalight2.jpg

It remains possible, however, that Day's writing is on the taped side of the bag in the FBI photos, but that we can't make it out due to the low-res of the photos online. I'm hoping John Hunt has a hi-res photo of the bag which will help us tell for sure.

As far as the re-enactment bag, when you blow it up you can read some of the writing, and it says that this is a replacement bag, etc... It's the writing of the FBI agents who made it and is not Day's writing.

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Thanks Pat.... wanted to hear from you on this, yet.....

Isn't this one of your slides?

You are saying in your reply to me that CE364 is the replica and that the FBI were the ones who wrote on it, not Day. "Replica bag"

yet in this slide the bag without writing is compared to CE364 and the claim is made that the writing is gone yet Day was able to read the words off the bag. If Day wrote on the original, why are you using the replica to make your point?

If Day was shown either CE626 or CE142... the pictures most likely, not the actual bag, there is no way he could read any words as there are obviously none as you can see on the front or back of the bag at NARA.

and finally, in every shot except out front of TSBD the bag is pressed flat, just as they say they found it... is there any documentation of what they did with it at the FBI and how did it get from being a 8"x24" folded flat bag to what it looks like in Montgomery's hands...

Finally, is there any real clear evidence that there is Day's writing on the "original" bag ?

thanks

DJ

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Thanks Pat.... wanted to hear from you on this, yet.....

Isn't this one of your slides?

You are saying in your reply to me that CE364 is the replica and that the FBI were the ones who wrote on it, not Day. "Replica bag"

yet in this slide the bag without writing is compared to CE364 and the claim is made that the writing is gone yet Day was able to read the words off the bag. If Day wrote on the original, why are you using the replica to make your point?

If Day was shown either CE626 or CE142... the pictures most likely, not the actual bag, there is no way he could read any words as there are obviously none as you can see on the front or back of the bag at NARA.

and finally, in every shot except out front of TSBD the bag is pressed flat, just as they say they found it... is there any documentation of what they did with it at the FBI and how did it get from being a 8"x24" folded flat bag to what it looks like in Montgomery's hands...

Finally, is there any real clear evidence that there is Day's writing on the "original" bag ?

thanks

DJ

I created that slide with the replica bag--and the writing on it--in order to show why I thought we should be able to see the writing on the bag. I then remembered that the Univ. of North Texas had put hi-res versions of the DPD's images online, and decided to check to see if any writing was visible on the bag on 11-26. And there was.

This made me re-think the slide. Knowing that the FBI's thick dark writing was readily visible on the re-enactment bag didn't help us when determining if the much thinner--apparently lighter--writing of Day on the bag would be visible in the FBI photos.

So I removed the re-enactment bag from the slide, and added the 11-26 DPD photo.

I'm hoping Hunt, or someone, anyone, has a hi-res shot of evidence photo 4 that will help us nail this down.

FWIW, I've already caught Day in several errors/lies. He testified that he'd signed the piece of cardboard pulled from the seat box on 11-22, even though the photos of this piece of cardboard taken on 11-25 prove he did not.

Edited by Pat Speer
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