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the GARY MACK dilemna


David Josephs
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IMO, it is 2010 and the main sources of influence on the subjects, - JFK _ and the Kennedy Assassination do not revolve around Gary Mack. The results of a google search of the term, JFK, show the wikipedia.org article in the top spot and McAdams's url.: http://www.google.com/#hl=en&expIds=17259,18167,27084&sugexp=ldymls&xhr=t&q=jfk&cp=2&pf=p&sclient=psy&site=&source=hp&aq=0&aqi=&aql=&oq=jf&gs_rfai=&pbx=1&fp=83f87efc6f926f13 displayed above the link for the Sixth Floor Museum. This is quite a feat, considering that the url of the Sixth Floor Museum is JFK.org!

For all of the criticism directed at Gary Mack, and this is not intended to be a post supporting or defending him;

compared to the right wing extemist, catholic conservative activism plaguing the POV and the agenda of John McAdams, Gary Mack is not controversial. To my knowledge, unlike McAdams, Gary Mack has no alliance with an obsessed, wikipedia administrator who literally controls the content of wikipedia articles on LHO and on the Kennedy Assassination.

IMO, McAdams and his buddy at wikipedia are today and tomorrow's challenges, Gary Mack and the ongoing conflict with Robert Groden are challenges of the past. This is not my conclusion, it is what google serves up to the tens of millions who search these terms. Threats cannot be effectively confronted and weakened unless they are prioritized.

It doesn't take much time, reading McAdams's blog posts and his reaction to the appointment of Marquette's new president, to recognize that McAdams is nuts....incoherent compared to almost any serious researcher. The results of the edits of the wikipedia articles on LHO and the Kennedy Assassination by wiki admin gamaliel are extremist disinformation, compared to what Gary Mack brings to the table. I think too much attention is devoted to objecting to Gary Mack, and not enough to objecting to the much bigger problems of McAdams and gamaliel, and in determining the actual level of support for McAdams's "work" by the Marquette Univ. administration and the Jesuit organization it answers to.

Tom, I think that you've expressed the situation well. Gary Mack can be a very good person for helping a researcher find some of the more obscure material, if it remains out in the public domain to be found. While it irks me no end that Gary prefers to "hide" behind his "sock puppets" when he has something to post on these forums, that's a problem strictly between Gary and me. I don't believe that Gary Mack is dangerous to the truth, as the rabid McAdams followers [and their leader] apparently are. Gary Mack has a sometimes difficult job--I know that, were I in Gary Mack's shoes, I'd find his level of restraint difficult to maintain--and while I don't always agree with his judgement calls on when to speak and when to remain silent, I do hold a measure of respect for Gary Mack for being consistent in his reactions to the sometimes wild claims posted in forums such as this.

I agree, Gary Mack isn't the most important problem the JFK research community faces. And focusing on Gary Mack draws attention away from the ones who would intentionally [and maliciously] lead researchers astray.

Edited by Mark Knight
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You can always count on J. Raymond Carroll to chime in often to say US intelligence was not involved in the JFK assassination and that US intelligence agent Lee Harvey Oswald was not US intelligence.

And it seems you can count on Mr. Morrow to get his information all scrambled up. TO say that Lee Oswald was not an intelligence agent does not at all imply that persons from US intelligence were not involved in the assassination plot. I have previously praised John Newman's book, which should be renamed THe CIA vs. Lee Oswald. Newman demonstrates that Oz was the TARGET or VICTIM of operations instigated by Angleton. In my book, this makes ANgleton one of the prime suspects in the plot to murder JFK and frame an innocent man.

Is that too complicated for you, Mr. Morrow, or should I draw you a diagram?

And PS to Mr. Di Eugenio: Lee Oswald never denied that he acted alone. He only denied that he had committed any crime.

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Guest Robert Morrow

You can always count on J. Raymond Carroll to chime in often to say US intelligence was not involved in the JFK assassination and that US intelligence agent Lee Harvey Oswald was not US intelligence.

And it seems you can count on Mr. Morrow to get his information all scrambled up. TO say that Lee Oswald was not an intelligence agent does not at all imply that persons from US intelligence were not involved in the assassination plot. I have previously praised John Newman's book, which should be renamed THe CIA vs. Lee Oswald. Newman demonstrates that Oz was the TARGET or VICTIM of operations instigated by Angleton. In my book, this makes ANgleton one of the prime suspects in the plot to murder JFK and frame an innocent man.

Is that too complicated for you, Mr. Morrow, or should I draw you a diagram?

And PS to Mr. Di Eugenio: Lee Oswald never denied that he acted alone. He only denied that he had committed any crime.

Ok. I do think Oswald was US intelligence. And I (currently) do think Oswald shot NO ONE on 11/22/63. But I do think Oswald was involved in or knew about the plot to murder John Kennedy. I do think LBJ/FBI/CIA made him the patsy for the JFK assassination to take the fall for the elite murderers.

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Excellent... thanks all.

I don't see this as apologizing for him at all.

Obviously we are not going to look to the likes of McAdams, VB, Myers, et al to "see the light" even when it is shined in their collective eyes. I don't see that as the case with Gary... and in due time wouldn't the public cross-over of someone recognized as a staunch government story supporter/promoter help the spread of this word....

Do you see Myers geting on youtube to profess his new found understanding of the case? VB?

course not... Gary? maybe, but would it cause a ripple. Is he visible enough an "Oswald did it" mouthpiece to make waves as a CT supporter?

The CTer are a people without country... metaphorically. I ask again,

are Websites and essays, books and articles enough without a physical location, recognized and supported by the 85% of the world who sees the truth, soas people from all over the world can visit and see the nasty underbelly of the US during that time.

What would such a museum look like and could something like that ever come to pass inthe good old US of A?

The GM dilemna, imo, is the difficult position of those in the "Oswald did it crowd" who understand the mountains of evidence and the forces that keep that doubt from being recognized or expressed. There are few if any people we can identify who have changed their position on account of the evidence... especially in the media where it would do the most good.

Shouldn't it be one of the grand purpose of the CT crowd, now, to unify it's positions, accept that the 3-5 main theories may conflict in areas but the underlining thesis is the same.... and find ourselves a home to tell the world?

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Oh puhleaze...

All this apologizing for Gary Mack makes me want to vomit. He knows there was a conspiracy but he pushes the government line for money. I feel quite justified in questioning the moral principles of anyone who finds that acceptable.

What line is it that you say Mack pushes? He supports he and Jack's work on the Badge Man, I seem to think he believes in the acoustics test done on the police recordings, and he - unlike the government - seems interested in why there was someone in and around the RR yard who was using fake Secret Service credentials just to name a few. So I must ask what exactly it is that Mack is doing as a curator of a 'historical museum' that you see as pushing the government line?

Bill

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Guest Robert Morrow

Oh puhleaze...

All this apologizing for Gary Mack makes me want to vomit. He knows there was a conspiracy but he pushes the government line for money. I feel quite justified in questioning the moral principles of anyone who finds that acceptable.

What line is it that you say Mack pushes? He supports he and Jack's work on the Badge Man, I seem to think he believes in the acoustics test done on the police recordings, and he - unlike the government - seems interested in why there was someone in and around the RR yard who was using fake Secret Service credentials just to name a few. So I must ask what exactly it is that Mack is doing as a curator of a 'historical museum' that you see as pushing the government line?

Bill

Bill, take a floor of the 6th floor Museum. It is all 1960's LBJ/CIA/FBI lies and propaganda. It is basically a showcase for the murderers of John Kennedy. There is a little section about conspiracy theories in the JFK assassination - and it mentions the Russians, Fidel Castro and SPACE ALIENS.

I think a SPACE ALIEN would make a better, more unbiased, accurate curator than Gary Mack. He might send you emails talking about Badge Man, but you will never seem in on national tv agreeing with the notion that the JFK assassination was a coup d'etat or elite domestic conspiracy. And Gary Mack sure won't name names either. Nothing about Oswald as a US intelligence agent ... or Richard Helms or James Angleton or David Morales ...

There is the FBI mock up model of Dealey Plaza with all the "shots" drawn in a straight line from the phantom sniper's window. Then there is the recording "three shots fired in Dallas" "three shots fired in Dallas" which plays over and over and over again in the background. There is also the heavy emphasis on Oswald as a perp - none on Lyndon Johnson, Clint Murchison, Sr. or the CIA. Ok maybe one sentence on a possible CIA role.

There is also that ridiculous drawing of a Navy doctor that could not even look at the autopsy photos - the Warren Commission's attempt to promote the fantasy of a single kill shot to the head from behind.

Then there is Gary Mack's role in the MSM media and disinformation documentaries like Inside the Target Car, where Mack is always flacking for the Warren Commission farce.

CTKA review on Inside the Target Car: http://www.ctka.net/2009/target_car_jd3.html

http://www.ctka.net/2009/target_car_jd3.html

Edited by Robert Morrow
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I am certain that Bill has been up there at least once.

The museum also celebrates Kennedy's life. It is the only place in DP that does. For younger folk who were not here when he was, Kennedy becomes known to them. It personalizes him.

.. Gary Mack sure won't name names either. Nothing about Oswald as a US intelligence agent ... or Richard Helms or James Angleton or David Morales ...

I can barely find two CTs who agree on the same thing so what names, as you say, should the Sixth Floor include? While those may be important to you, as well as your LBJ stuff, there are other CTs who think differently than you, and would like to have something else presented. IMO, there is nothing that the Museum could present CT-wise that would appease everyone.

Kathy

Edited by Kathy Beckett
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As far as I'm aware, Bill, Mr. Mack has said nothing publicly on any of those points in quite some time. Everything he says and does publicly - like on Inside the Target Car - supports the official story that Oswald acted alone. He might talk about the acoustics or badgemen or the fake SS agent in private but not at the museum or on the Discovery Channel. Which proves my point doesn't it?

I've got nothing personal against Gary Mack but ever since he said the following ludicrous pile of garbage in an email to me a couple months back I've got absolutely zero respect for his opinions and (non-existent) expertise:

"Absent proof of anything else, then the SBT must have happened, which is what and why the WC concluded what it did. Until there is proof countering that finding, history has spoken." - Gary Mack 9/9/10

I am astonished that people are missing the point so badly ... Gary cannot push theories while at the Museum - only history! This was what I meant by people changing history with proof so the 6th Floor Museum will be citing to the public the newest historical findings. In as much as I believe in Gordon Arnold's story and the Badge Man work that Jack and Gary did - it is still nothing more than a theory. I wish a panel would study the impact moment the bullet hit Connally and the photographical evidence I have presented in the past for I feel dead certain about what my stabilization's have shown. If a recognized panel found that I am correct and then became a part of the historical record, then I imagine Gary's employers would have no problem with talking about it to visitors there.

The bottom line is that Gary is limited by history as far as what he can say so to remain impartial while representing a historical museum. I may not like it, but I can understand it.

Bill

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Bill, take a floor of the 6th floor Museum. It is all 1960's LBJ/CIA/FBI lies and propaganda. It is basically a showcase for the murderers of John Kennedy. There is a little section about conspiracy theories in the JFK assassination - and it mentions the Russians, Fidel Castro and SPACE ALIENS.

I think a SPACE ALIEN would make a better, more unbiased, accurate curator than Gary Mack. He might send you emails talking about Badge Man, but you will never seem in on national tv agreeing with the notion that the JFK assassination was a coup d'etat or elite domestic conspiracy. And Gary Mack sure won't name names either. Nothing about Oswald as a US intelligence agent ... or Richard Helms or James Angleton or David Morales ...

There is the FBI mock up model of Dealey Plaza with all the "shots" drawn in a straight line from the phantom sniper's window. Then there is the recording "three shots fired in Dallas" "three shots fired in Dallas" which plays over and over and over again in the background. There is also the heavy emphasis on Oswald as a perp - none on Lyndon Johnson, Clint Murchison, Sr. or the CIA. Ok maybe one sentence on a possible CIA role.

There is also that ridiculous drawing of a Navy doctor that could not even look at the autopsy photos - the Warren Commission's attempt to promote the fantasy of a single kill shot to the head from behind.

Then there is Gary Mack's role in the MSM media and disinformation documentaries like Inside the Target Car, where Mack is always flacking for the Warren Commission farce.

CTKA review on Inside the Target Car: http://www.ctka.net/...et_car_jd3.html

http://www.ctka.net/...et_car_jd3.html

Without even seeking more information .... I could tell from the response above that you seemingly have difficulty in separating theory from history. The FBI exhibit is part of the history of the official investigation into the assassination of JFK, as well as any medical drawings used in the investigations.

In the sense of fairness, I asked Gary to respond to the allegations you made and this is what he said to me ...

Mack wrote:

"Hi Bill,

1) There are NO references to "space aliens" in the exhibit. There is a separate panel addressing popular conspiracy theories and there are nine examples: Organized crime, U.S. agencies, Conservatives, Soviets/KGB, Cubans, Anti-Castro elements, New Orleans, Jack Ruby, Vietnam war withdrawal. But no space aliens.

2) The FBI model of Dealey Plaza is THEIR version of the assassination, as presented to the Warren Commission in January 1964. Anyone who read the text on the railing surrounding the exhibit would know that.

3) The "three shots" recording is the first bulletin most people heard; the announcer is an ABC newsman reading the report by Merriman Smith, the closest reporter to JFK actually IN the motorcade.

4) Yes, history says Oswald was the "perp" - he is the one named by every official investigation to have been the one who killed President Kennedy. History is what the Museum does, not Morrow's personal theory or mine either, for that matter.

5) Yes, Navy petty officer (not a doctor) Harold Rydberg's drawing is shown, for the Warren Commission relied upon it, as explained in the panel text.

6) JFK: Inside the Target Car is not mentioned in the Museum or store, though except for getting Jackie in the wrong position in a recreation that had nothing to do with the scientific test shots, I still maintain is an excellent documentary."

Bill Miller

Edited by Bill Miller
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+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

"Absent proof of anything else, then the SBT must have happened, which is what and why the WC concluded what it did. Until there is proof countering that finding, history has spoken." - Gary Mack 9/9/10

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Reckon maybe he now has the "proof" which factually counters the WC.

Tom

P.S. Yep Mark, he has it too!

P.S. Send me those documents which you want signed Gary.

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Bill, take a floor of the 6th floor Museum. It is all 1960's LBJ/CIA/FBI lies and propaganda. It is basically a showcase for the murderers of John Kennedy. There is a little section about conspiracy theories in the JFK assassination - and it mentions the Russians, Fidel Castro and SPACE ALIENS.

I think a SPACE ALIEN would make a better, more unbiased, accurate curator than Gary Mack. He might send you emails talking about Badge Man, but you will never seem in on national tv agreeing with the notion that the JFK assassination was a coup d'etat or elite domestic conspiracy. And Gary Mack sure won't name names either. Nothing about Oswald as a US intelligence agent ... or Richard Helms or James Angleton or David Morales ...

There is the FBI mock up model of Dealey Plaza with all the "shots" drawn in a straight line from the phantom sniper's window. Then there is the recording "three shots fired in Dallas" "three shots fired in Dallas" which plays over and over and over again in the background. There is also the heavy emphasis on Oswald as a perp - none on Lyndon Johnson, Clint Murchison, Sr. or the CIA. Ok maybe one sentence on a possible CIA role.

There is also that ridiculous drawing of a Navy doctor that could not even look at the autopsy photos - the Warren Commission's attempt to promote the fantasy of a single kill shot to the head from behind.

Then there is Gary Mack's role in the MSM media and disinformation documentaries like Inside the Target Car, where Mack is always flacking for the Warren Commission farce.

CTKA review on Inside the Target Car: http://www.ctka.net/...et_car_jd3.html

http://www.ctka.net/...et_car_jd3.html

Without even seeking more information .... I could tell from the response above that you seemingly have difficulty in separating theory from history. The FBI exhibit is part of the history of the official investigation into the assassination of JFK, as well as any medical drawings used in the investigations.

In the sense of fairness, I asked Gary to respond to the allegations you made and this is what he said to me ...

Mack wrote:

"Hi Bill,

1) There are NO references to "space aliens" in the exhibit. There is a separate panel addressing popular conspiracy theories and there are nine examples: Organized crime, U.S. agencies, Conservatives, Soviets/KGB, Cubans, Anti-Castro elements, New Orleans, Jack Ruby, Vietnam war withdrawal. But no space aliens.

2) The FBI model of Dealey Plaza is THEIR version of the assassination, as presented to the Warren Commission in January 1964. Anyone who read the text on the railing surrounding the exhibit would know that.

3) The "three shots" recording is the first bulletin most people heard; the announcer is an ABC newsman reading the report by Merriman Smith, the closest reporter to JFK actually IN the motorcade.

4) Yes, history says Oswald was the "perp" - he is the one named by every official investigation to have been the one who killed President Kennedy. History is what the Museum does, not Morrow's personal theory or mine either, for that matter.

5) Yes, Navy petty officer (not a doctor) Harold Rydberg's drawing is shown, for the Warren Commission relied upon it, as explained in the panel text.

6) JFK: Inside the Target Car is not mentioned in the Museum or store, though except for getting Jackie in the wrong position in a recreation that had nothing to do with the scientific test shots, I still maintain is an excellent documentary."

Bill Miller

As suspected, the 6th Floor Museum is a simple testament for the Warren Commission Report/SBT-THEORY

Seems foolish to hide behind historical FACT with PR stunts -- IMO

Edited by David G. Healy
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Martin,

He and the owners of the museum are also part of "We the People", just as the KKK, Nazi party, the president's cabinet and ACLU are.... each entitled to their opinions and freedom of expression within the law.

It was a theory that IRAQ/Saddam was behind 9/11. At one point over 75% polled believed it thanks to what we now know was a directed advertising campaign specific to that purpose.... they lied their asses off... and to the UN and world to boot. Was history corrected when it was found to be false? Kind of....

While a theory and not as believed as in the past... the SBT is still the historical explanation of what occured for those injuries...

what matters more is the head shot... and the historical reality that frontal shots and a likely conpsiracy was the result of the HSCA investigation.

The Museum of Natural History does not pay homage to the theologies challenging its conclusions regarding creation and evolution.

Should it? If the answer if "no" then we need a museum of our own.

With 85% of the world believing in a conspiracy... how hard would that be?

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The Single Bullet Theory is a theory too, right? One that's never actually been proven given that no path was proven to exist between the back and throat wounds. And no proof has ever been offered that CE399 was actually in contact with either man.

So I guess it's ok to push the government's unproven theories but not those of the American people - even if the vast majority of people reject the obviously flawed government hypothesis.

I cannot see how you can miss this point .... Mack may not even believe in the magic bullet, but as the Curator of the Museum, he is obliged to continue citing the official version as it is part of the history of the investigation.

Bill

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I don't know him personally.

He helped me one time great while measuring data in DP on the acoustic evidence,

months later he insulted me out of sudden because i've estimated the height of BDM in Willis

and he was plain wrong after reviewing. Strange.

When i got critique from him, it's always when it goes against a conspiracy theory, he is not supporting. (This means acoustic evidence and Badgeman is supported by him).

Edited by Martin Hinrichs
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