Thomas H. Purvis Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 I'll now introduce this WC exhibit. This would indicate a final shot at station number 4+96 or approx 30ft farther down Elm than the 313 head shot. chris That is the SS statement! What was actually surveyed in (for the SS re-enactment of 12/5/63) as well as the FBI re-enactment of 2/7/64---which happens to be CE585), was survey stationing 4+95. http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol17_0144b.htm And, since there are now those who are in possession of legible copies of this information (to include the street elevation at the point of impact for the third/last/final shot) one could effectively state that the "cat is out of the bag". Even if no one believes it is in fact a cat! Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas H. Purvis Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 It looks like the original Station C was at an elevation of 428.80. I believe Spector would later use 428.94, the Horizontal Control Point as his calculation guide. (Revised chart coming) Of course, I do not utilize the Bullsh!! correction factor formula he used in the recreation process. chris 1. Those survey notes are from the SS Survey in which vertical (elevation) control was first carried into Dealey Plaza. 2. The "C" is in fact "C""L", meaning Center Line. 3. I would have to go back to all of the survey notes to firmly establish "Station C". Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Davidson Posted January 4, 2011 Author Share Posted January 4, 2011 If I move 30ft farther up Elm than my 428.94 elevation point, I land approx at the corner of the TSBD. Each vertical blue line(1 inch apart) represents 10ft increments. chris How did you get your 1 inch equals 10 foot scale? Craig, It's on the Drommer plat. Here is a snapshot of it. chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Lamson Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 (edited) If I move 30ft farther up Elm than my 428.94 elevation point, I land approx at the corner of the TSBD. Each vertical blue line(1 inch apart) represents 10ft increments. chris How did you get your 1 inch equals 10 foot scale? Craig, It's on the Drommer plat. Here is a snapshot of it. chris I know it's there, but are you sure it's correct and that the file size has not been changed from the original? Edited January 5, 2011 by Craig Lamson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Davidson Posted January 4, 2011 Author Share Posted January 4, 2011 Now take a look at frame 161 . The recreation numbers say it is 94.7 ft to station C. When added to the real station C distance this equals 3+69. If you look at the chart, Spector has frame 161 at 3+29. That is a difference of 40ft approx. Limo's in the same spot, distances are incorrect. Beginning to get the picture. chris http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=4272&relPageId=29 What was actually surveyed in was Z168. CE884 was changed to make it appear as if Z161 was what was surveyed in. I will get back to you on "Station C" as soon as I dig out the survey notes & the full sized copy of the WC Survey Plat. Which, by the way, clearly shows "Station "A"" marked on it. http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol17_0464a.htm That "first line" as drawn from the sixth floor window of the TSDB to Elm St., goes to "STATION A", which portion of the WC Survey Plat I long ago posted here. Thanks Tom, The 40ft difference threw me off for a while, as the original distance from Station C to Position A was stated as 44ft. But on CE884, between frame 161 and 166 there is a distance of approx 1ft traveled. (An adjustment no where close to a steady 11 mph). Since Spector was keeping the speed consistent, I looked for a distance traveled among 2 other sets of frames 5 apart. The difference between frame 235 and 240 is 5.5ft. A difference of 4.5ft. Added back to the 40ft =44.5ft, which gets us back closely to the original 44ft mark. chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Davidson Posted January 4, 2011 Author Share Posted January 4, 2011 When I did the original speed calculation for 11mph and 15 mph, I transposed the tenth's and hundreth's places. By doing that it left a difference of 6.1 ft per sec. Which, when plugged back into the equation gave me a 44ft distance. The correct difference was 5.88ft per sec , and when plugged back in gave me a 42.4 ft distance. The difference from elevation 428.94 to the end of the Drommer plat is : Well, here's a picture of it. chris P.S. Tom, as you stated before, whoever created Drommer was told exactly what to do. Nothing independent about it. chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Davidson Posted January 5, 2011 Author Share Posted January 5, 2011 (edited) It always helps to break down those compound ideas. See document below!!! For instance: 1. Based on these films. I was under the impression there was only 1 Zfilm. 1. The limo was traveling 11.2 mph 2.The limo traveled 186 feet in 152 frames. 2.152/18.3=8.3 sec. 2.186ft/8.3sec=22.4ft per sec 2.22.4ft per sec=15.2 mph 3.Yes, 136ft/8.3 sec =11.2mph. Now, referring back to #2: If you add the 4+ft. that was shorted from frame 161-166 to the listed 186 ft, this =190ft. 190 ft is the distance between frame100 which is (station no. 2+75) and frame 313(station no. 4+65). But now the total frame span for distance traveled increases from 152 to 213 creating a limo speed of 11.11 mph. Two scenarios (11+15mph) integrated into 1 result. chris Edited January 5, 2011 by Chris Davidson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas H. Purvis Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 It looks like the original Station C was at an elevation of 428.80. I believe Spector would later use 428.94, the Horizontal Control Point as his calculation guide. (Revised chart coming) Of course, I do not utilize the Bullsh!! correction factor formula he used in the recreation process. chris 1. Those survey notes are from the SS Survey in which vertical (elevation) control was first carried into Dealey Plaza. 2. The "C" is in fact "C""L", meaning Center Line. 3. I would have to go back to all of the survey notes to firmly establish "Station C". Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas H. Purvis Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 It looks like the original Station C was at an elevation of 428.80. I believe Spector would later use 428.94, the Horizontal Control Point as his calculation guide. (Revised chart coming) Of course, I do not utilize the Bullsh!! correction factor formula he used in the recreation process. chris 1. Those survey notes are from the SS Survey in which vertical (elevation) control was first carried into Dealey Plaza. 2. The "C" is in fact "C""L", meaning Center Line. 3. I would have to go back to all of the survey notes to firmly establish "Station C". Tom 1. There was no "Station C" surveyed in by Mr. West. 2. The purpose of "Station A" appears to have been an attempt to stay away from the established survey stationing number which Mr. West had established during the SS Survey and re-enactment of December 1963. 3. Positions farther down Elm St. were established first, and since he had no other means of reference, Mr. West utilized the survey stationing of the Secret Service as his "reference point" for this work. He thereafter continuted to do so when he established "Position/Frame A", which is located at street elevation 428.70 4. Survey centerline stationing 2+75 is located at street elevation 428.80, which is in the approximate center of the street, whereas "Position/Frame A" is located off to the right lane of Elm St. 5. The survey elevation 428.94 (secret service)/99.5 (drommer) is the same location, and represents the TOP of the concrete street curb in that location. 6. This location is defined by extending a straight line off the building wall on the east side of Houston St. (at the point marked on the drommer plat with an elevation of 100.5), down Elm St. At the point at which this line intersects a 90-degree line running to the center of the south curb at the distance of 14.6 feet, is the location for the elevation 428.4(SS)/99.5 (drommer). 7. Straight out into Elm St. from this location is survey stationing 2+77 on the SS/FBI/as well as WC Survey Plats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dolva Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 Tom, access to Wests survey notes like that one are essential to many. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas H. Purvis Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 Tom, access to Wests survey notes like that one are essential to many. The "partial" that Chris is posting is from the "whole" that was long ago posted/provided here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dolva Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 Ok, unfortunately for me the full set of survey notes from stepoff to final station was posted before my time. I've never seen them in toto, only snippets that in my case makes any attempt at independently verify pointless. I'm supposed to take stuff at blind faith. I switch off then.. I'd like to draft my own plat, in toto. Could the FULL set of survey NOTES AND SKETCHES, all readings, taken on the day by West be republished. Please. (a zip file will do) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Davidson Posted January 7, 2011 Author Share Posted January 7, 2011 It looks like the original Station C was at an elevation of 428.80. I believe Spector would later use 428.94, the Horizontal Control Point as his calculation guide. (Revised chart coming) Of course, I do not utilize the Bullsh!! correction factor formula he used in the recreation process. chris 1. Those survey notes are from the SS Survey in which vertical (elevation) control was first carried into Dealey Plaza. 2. The "C" is in fact "C""L", meaning Center Line. 3. I would have to go back to all of the survey notes to firmly establish "Station C". Tom 1. There was no "Station C" surveyed in by Mr. West. 2. The purpose of "Station A" appears to have been an attempt to stay away from the established survey stationing number which Mr. West had established during the SS Survey and re-enactment of December 1963. 3. Positions farther down Elm St. were established first, and since he had no other means of reference, Mr. West utilized the survey stationing of the Secret Service as his "reference point" for this work. He thereafter continuted to do so when he established "Position/Frame A", which is located at street elevation 428.70 4. Survey centerline stationing 2+75 is located at street elevation 428.80, which is in the approximate center of the street, whereas "Position/Frame A" is located off to the right lane of Elm St. 5. The survey elevation 428.94 (secret service)/99.5 (drommer) is the same location, and represents the TOP of the concrete street curb in that location. 6. This location is defined by extending a straight line off the building wall on the east side of Houston St. (at the point marked on the drommer plat with an elevation of 100.5), down Elm St. At the point at which this line intersects a 90-degree line running to the center of the south curb at the distance of 14.6 feet, is the location for the elevation 428.4(SS)/99.5 (drommer). 7. Straight out into Elm St. from this location is survey stationing 2+77 on the SS/FBI/as well as WC Survey Plats. Tom, Make's perfect sense. Looks like the WC killed multiple birds with 1 stone, around the Elm St. turn. Once again, a headshot 30ft farther down Elm than the 313 headshot. How do they hide it in distance? Move that particular starting point back 30ft to the corner of the TSBD. Align JFK with the TSBD corner in Towner by film splice for syncing, and bingo, the Altgens adjustment has been made. Incorporate two headshots, both made to arrive at 4+65(2 scenarios), but the audience knows of the film version only. chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Davidson Posted January 9, 2011 Author Share Posted January 9, 2011 Math2 topic should clinch it. chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Roberdeau Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 (edited) If I move 30ft farther up Elm than my 428.94 elevation point, I land approx at the corner of the TSBD. Each vertical blue line(1 inch apart) represents 10ft increments. chris .... Good Day Chris .... I will be reading the balance of this thread after your Jan. 4th post, so, hopefully, my following has already been addressed and corrected in one of two ways.... With Elm Street actually being nearly 40' wide, the red-colored double-arrowed line length labeled "Approx 30ft." as shown in relative-to-Elm size on the same HSCA's map blue-colored section provided above, should be labeled approximately 22' in length. (or, the red-colored double-arrowed line length should be longer to reflect an accurate 30') Best Regards in Research, Don Donald Roberdeau U.S.S. John F. Kennedy, CV-67, "Big John," Plank Walker Sooner, or later, The Truth emerges Clearly For your considerations.... Homepage: President KENNEDY "Men of Courage" speech, and Assassination Evidence, Witnesses, Suspects + Outstanding Researchers Discoveries and Considerations Dealey Plaza Map Detailing 11-22-63 Victims precise locations, Witnesses, Films & Photos, Evidence, Suspected bullet trajectories,Important information & Considerations, Gathered in One Convenient Resource Visual Report: "The First Bullet Impact Into President Kennedy: While JFK was Hidden Under the 'magic-limbed-ricochet-tree' " Visual Report: Reality versus C.A.D. : the Real World, versus, Garbage-In, Garbage-Out Discovery: "Very Close JFK Assassination Witness ROSEMARY WILLIS Zapruder Film Documented 2nd Headsnap: West, Ultrafast, and Directly Towards the Grassy Knoll" File: President KENNEDY Assassination Research, Maps, & Discoveries for Your Considerations T ogether E veryone A chieves M ore National Terror Alert for the United States: http://www.dhs.gov/dhspublic/ Edited January 9, 2011 by Don Roberdeau Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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