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Jim F - if the bullet exploded after hitting the temple


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I would not expect it to take more than 10-minutes of explanation to Ayoob for him to fully grasp the rationale and reasoning as to why the headshot at Z312/313 created the physical damage to the skull/brain of JFK which it did, as well as correlate exactly why this shot/FMJ bullet to the skull fragmented in the manner in which it did.

No doubt after that 10-minute discussion Ayoob will publish an article completely reversing his opinion.

I suggest no one should hold their breath waiting for Ayoob's change of heart.

This month's publication (in local newspaper):-----------"Altered Evidence"

Next month's publication (February):-------------------- The myth of "THE SHOT THAT MISSED"

The month thereafter (March):---------------------------"Shot#2/aka Z313"*

*Since I have already been "invited" to send the forensic; ballistic; and pathological facts of the Z313 impact to a true expert in forensic sciences, I see no reason as to why not go ahead and send a copy of the publishing to Ayoob as well.

If one were that knowledgeable in regards to Ayoob, then they would also know that he considered the Carcano as being "junk".

That is until such time as he was offered the opportunity to test fire one for himself!

And, although I long ago presented Ayoob's complete article on shooting the Carcano rifle on this forum, would not waste time doing it again even if I could post attachments.

However, since Anthony Marsh (who copies about anything he can claim credit for) made full copies of this article, it can be found on his website.

Nice thing about Ayoob, when given the opportunity to evaluate "factual" evidence, he is fully willing to accept a change in ideas.

P.S. "The explosion of the President's head as seen in frame 313 of the Zapruder film is simply not characteristic of a full metal-jacket rifle bullet traveling at 2,200 fps or less. It is far more consistent with an explosive wound of entry with a small-bore, hyper-velocity rifle bullet traveling between 3,000 and 4,000 fps, and probably toward the higher end of that scale"

Being "not characteristic" does not imply not possible!

Hell! Anyone who has shot rabbits with a standard "gilded" .22 round and a "hollow-point" .22 round would know this.

One does not need Ayoob to recognize this simple fact.

The simple fact is, that for the most part, the head shot impact at Z313 is totally consistant with what a FMJ Carcano bullet can and will do when it strikes and penetrates the skull in the manner which IT DID!

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In all the years of exploding bullet theories, has anyone tested whether the front temple entrance wound could have been followed by a simultaneous rear and right-side blowout?

After all, there wasn't just cavitation at the right rear, but shattering and lifting of the cranium also.

Note also that Ayoob's findings (see bold text below) are not necessarily based on witnessing any rear cavitation and rear disjecta in the Z-film:

"The explosion of the President's head as seen in frame 313 of the Zapruder film is simply not characteristic of a full metal-jacket rifle bullet traveling at 2,200 fps or less. It is far more consistent with an explosive wound of entry with a small-bore, hyper-velocity rifle bullet traveling between 3,000 and 4,000 fps, and probably toward the higher end of that scale..."

Edited by David Andrews
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  • 2 weeks later...

I would not expect it to take more than 10-minutes of explanation to Ayoob for him to fully grasp the rationale and reasoning as to why the headshot at Z312/313 created the physical damage to the skull/brain of JFK which it did, as well as correlate exactly why this shot/FMJ bullet to the skull fragmented in the manner in which it did.

No doubt after that 10-minute discussion Ayoob will publish an article completely reversing his opinion.

I suggest no one should hold their breath waiting for Ayoob's change of heart.

This month's publication (in local newspaper):-----------"Altered Evidence"

Next month's publication (February):-------------------- The myth of "THE SHOT THAT MISSED"

The month thereafter (March):---------------------------"Shot#2/aka Z313"*

*Since I have already been "invited" to send the forensic; ballistic; and pathological facts of the Z313 impact to a true expert in forensic sciences, I see no reason as to why not go ahead and send a copy of the publishing to Ayoob as well.

If one were that knowledgeable in regards to Ayoob, then they would also know that he considered the Carcano as being "junk".

That is until such time as he was offered the opportunity to test fire one for himself!

And, although I long ago presented Ayoob's complete article on shooting the Carcano rifle on this forum, would not waste time doing it again even if I could post attachments.

However, since Anthony Marsh (who copies about anything he can claim credit for) made full copies of this article, it can be found on his website.

Nice thing about Ayoob, when given the opportunity to evaluate "factual" evidence, he is fully willing to accept a change in ideas.

P.S. "The explosion of the President's head as seen in frame 313 of the Zapruder film is simply not characteristic of a full metal-jacket rifle bullet traveling at 2,200 fps or less. It is far more consistent with an explosive wound of entry with a small-bore, hyper-velocity rifle bullet traveling between 3,000 and 4,000 fps, and probably toward the higher end of that scale"

Being "not characteristic" does not imply not possible!

Hell! Anyone who has shot rabbits with a standard "gilded" .22 round and a "hollow-point" .22 round would know this.

One does not need Ayoob to recognize this simple fact.

The simple fact is, that for the most part, the head shot impact at Z313 is totally consistant with what a FMJ Carcano bullet can and will do when it strikes and penetrates the skull in the manner which IT DID!

Well, I either lied or changed my mind!

The proposed schedule for publication within the local newspaper is as follows:

===================================================================================================================

January (complete & published):-----------"Altered Evidence"

This month's publication (last week in February):-------------------- The myth of "THE SHOT THAT MISSED"

Last week in March-------------------------------------The Survey Plats & Survey Data (to include Shot#3)*

The month thereafter (April):---------------------------"Shot#2/aka Z313"**

Notes:**

The "Altered Evidence" as well as "THE SHOT THAT MISSED" are each two-page publications.

The "Survey Plats & Survey Data" will be a four-page publication.

The "Shot#2/akaZ313" impact will most probably be a two-page insert with the second publishing being done in May.

For those who are already on the "distribution" list, your copies will arrive as usual.

Tom

P.S. In event that anyone has the mailing address for Tom Hanks, I would be glad to send him copies in order to assist him in avoidance of "foot-in-mouth" insertion syndrone.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I would not expect it to take more than 10-minutes of explanation to Ayoob for him to fully grasp the rationale and reasoning as to why the headshot at Z312/313 created the physical damage to the skull/brain of JFK which it did, as well as correlate exactly why this shot/FMJ bullet to the skull fragmented in the manner in which it did.

No doubt after that 10-minute discussion Ayoob will publish an article completely reversing his opinion.

I suggest no one should hold their breath waiting for Ayoob's change of heart.

This month's publication (in local newspaper):-----------"Altered Evidence"

Next month's publication (February):-------------------- The myth of "THE SHOT THAT MISSED"

The month thereafter (March):---------------------------"Shot#2/aka Z313"*

*Since I have already been "invited" to send the forensic; ballistic; and pathological facts of the Z313 impact to a true expert in forensic sciences, I see no reason as to why not go ahead and send a copy of the publishing to Ayoob as well.

If one were that knowledgeable in regards to Ayoob, then they would also know that he considered the Carcano as being "junk".

That is until such time as he was offered the opportunity to test fire one for himself!

And, although I long ago presented Ayoob's complete article on shooting the Carcano rifle on this forum, would not waste time doing it again even if I could post attachments.

However, since Anthony Marsh (who copies about anything he can claim credit for) made full copies of this article, it can be found on his website.

Nice thing about Ayoob, when given the opportunity to evaluate "factual" evidence, he is fully willing to accept a change in ideas.

P.S. "The explosion of the President's head as seen in frame 313 of the Zapruder film is simply not characteristic of a full metal-jacket rifle bullet traveling at 2,200 fps or less. It is far more consistent with an explosive wound of entry with a small-bore, hyper-velocity rifle bullet traveling between 3,000 and 4,000 fps, and probably toward the higher end of that scale"

Being "not characteristic" does not imply not possible!

Hell! Anyone who has shot rabbits with a standard "gilded" .22 round and a "hollow-point" .22 round would know this.

One does not need Ayoob to recognize this simple fact.

The simple fact is, that for the most part, the head shot impact at Z313 is totally consistant with what a FMJ Carcano bullet can and will do when it strikes and penetrates the skull in the manner which IT DID!

Well, I either lied or changed my mind!

The proposed schedule for publication within the local newspaper is as follows:

===================================================================================================================

January (complete & published):-----------"Altered Evidence"

This month's publication (last week in February):-------------------- The myth of "THE SHOT THAT MISSED"

Last week in March-------------------------------------The Survey Plats & Survey Data (to include Shot#3)*

The month thereafter (April):---------------------------"Shot#2/aka Z313"**

Notes:**

The "Altered Evidence" as well as "THE SHOT THAT MISSED" are each two-page publications.

The "Survey Plats & Survey Data" will be a four-page publication.

The "Shot#2/akaZ313" impact will most probably be a two-page insert with the second publishing being done in May.

For those who are already on the "distribution" list, your copies will arrive as usual.

Tom

P.S. In event that anyone has the mailing address for Tom Hanks, I would be glad to send him copies in order to assist him in avoidance of "foot-in-mouth" insertion syndrone.

Good to see ya still around Tom.

I wonder if, and when, these yokels will ever really understand wound ballistics. I also spent a bit of time with Ayoob. I took a PR-24 course he offered once.

Anyhow, Im back around and hope to catch up to ya soon.

Mike

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Hey there Mike... good to hear from you again.

Would enjoy your take on this.

When one goes and finds a recognized expert in the field who categorically states something:

P.S. "The explosion of the President's head as seen in frame 313 of the Zapruder film is simply not characteristic of a full metal-jacket rifle bullet traveling at 2,200 fps or less. It is far more consistent with an explosive wound of entry with a small-bore, hyper-velocity rifle bullet traveling between 3,000 and 4,000 fps, and probably toward the higher end of that scale"

Tom replies:

Being "not characteristic" does not imply not possible!

Hell! Anyone who has shot rabbits with a standard "gilded" .22 round and a "hollow-point" .22 round would know this.

One does not need Ayoob to recognize this simple fact.

The simple fact is, that for the most part, the head shot impact at Z313 is totally consistant with what a FMJ Carcano bullet can and will do when it strikes and penetrates the skull in the manner which IT DID!

You both know much more than I ever will about ballistics....

Why does Tom bring up "gilded" or "hollow-point" .22 rounds when we are talking about a FMJ 6.5mm round???

Does FMJ rounds completely disintegrate and leave vapor clouds along it path?

If the frontal shot exploded - what blows out the back of his head?

Does z313 +/- a few frames look like 2 simultaneous shots?

Since I truly don't understand how Ayoob can say one thing and then Tom simply shrug it off without any real response other than Ayoob being willing to accept a change in ideas - maybe you could clear it up for us?

DJ

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Hey there Mike... good to hear from you again.

Would enjoy your take on this.

When one goes and finds a recognized expert in the field who categorically states something:

P.S. "The explosion of the President's head as seen in frame 313 of the Zapruder film is simply not characteristic of a full metal-jacket rifle bullet traveling at 2,200 fps or less. It is far more consistent with an explosive wound of entry with a small-bore, hyper-velocity rifle bullet traveling between 3,000 and 4,000 fps, and probably toward the higher end of that scale"

Tom replies:

Being "not characteristic" does not imply not possible!

Hell! Anyone who has shot rabbits with a standard "gilded" .22 round and a "hollow-point" .22 round would know this.

One does not need Ayoob to recognize this simple fact.

The simple fact is, that for the most part, the head shot impact at Z313 is totally consistant with what a FMJ Carcano bullet can and will do when it strikes and penetrates the skull in the manner which IT DID!

You both know much more than I ever will about ballistics....

Why does Tom bring up "gilded" or "hollow-point" .22 rounds when we are talking about a FMJ 6.5mm round???

Does FMJ rounds completely disintegrate and leave vapor clouds along it path?

If the frontal shot exploded - what blows out the back of his head?

Does z313 +/- a few frames look like 2 simultaneous shots?

Since I truly don't understand how Ayoob can say one thing and then Tom simply shrug it off without any real response other than Ayoob being willing to accept a change in ideas - maybe you could clear it up for us?

DJ

David,

Man its good to hear from you again as well. Two horrid back surgeries later, and Im on the move, albeit slowly.

I can only guess that Tom is making a scale reference here. The head of a rabbit with a small bore .22, and likewise the larger head of a man, and the larger projectile.

I would have to disagree 100% with the author of the statement that the projectile were traveling 3000 to 4000 fps. Had this been the case, the secondary wound path would be huge.

If we think of the head as a vessel filled with a liquid, as blood, and cerebra fluid is a liquid, and brain matter, which is gelatinous, a semi liquid, we soon realize that the material in the head will not compress very much at all.

That pressure has to go somewhere.

With a small bore, and hyper velocity that pressure would be monumental. I dare say, head removing.

What I see in the z film is one shot from the rear. I can offer you my opinion on this.

There are two types of spatter forward, in the direction of the bullet, and back, which as it implies moves back towards the shooter.

Forward Spatter is higher in velocity, is much more diffuse, and generally far more prevalent. Back spatter is much lower in velocity, much less diffuse, and no where near as prevalent.

spat1-1.gif

WE can see that in the above example.

So the questions become two fold.

What do we see? What do we not see?

What we see is a slight movement of the head forward. Consistent with a rifle bullet strike.

We see a very diffuse cloud of matter exit the front of the head, forward spatter.

We do not see this replicated out of the back of the head, which we certainly would, had we witnessed a front striking rear exiting shot.

So why does the damage look so unusual?

Because by nature it is hard to categorize head wounds. The head being filled with fluid is going to crack open where ever it dang well pleases. It has to, that pressure just has to go someplace.

I have viewed a few head shots in my day, and one thing is certain, wounds created by exactly the same weapon, with exactly the same ammo, can look quite different.

I do not know if this helped at all David.

Mike

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Hey there Mike... good to hear from you again.

Would enjoy your take on this.

When one goes and finds a recognized expert in the field who categorically states something:

P.S. "The explosion of the President's head as seen in frame 313 of the Zapruder film is simply not characteristic of a full metal-jacket rifle bullet traveling at 2,200 fps or less. It is far more consistent with an explosive wound of entry with a small-bore, hyper-velocity rifle bullet traveling between 3,000 and 4,000 fps, and probably toward the higher end of that scale"

Tom replies:

Being "not characteristic" does not imply not possible!

Hell! Anyone who has shot rabbits with a standard "gilded" .22 round and a "hollow-point" .22 round would know this.

One does not need Ayoob to recognize this simple fact.

The simple fact is, that for the most part, the head shot impact at Z313 is totally consistant with what a FMJ Carcano bullet can and will do when it strikes and penetrates the skull in the manner which IT DID!

You both know much more than I ever will about ballistics....

Why does Tom bring up "gilded" or "hollow-point" .22 rounds when we are talking about a FMJ 6.5mm round???

Does FMJ rounds completely disintegrate and leave vapor clouds along it path?

If the frontal shot exploded - what blows out the back of his head?

Does z313 +/- a few frames look like 2 simultaneous shots?

Since I truly don't understand how Ayoob can say one thing and then Tom simply shrug it off without any real response other than Ayoob being willing to accept a change in ideas - maybe you could clear it up for us?

DJ

David,

Man its good to hear from you again as well. Two horrid back surgeries later, and Im on the move, albeit slowly.

I can only guess that Tom is making a scale reference here. The head of a rabbit with a small bore .22, and likewise the larger head of a man, and the larger projectile.

I would have to disagree 100% with the author of the statement that the projectile were traveling 3000 to 4000 fps. Had this been the case, the secondary wound path would be huge.

If we think of the head as a vessel filled with a liquid, as blood, and cerebra fluid is a liquid, and brain matter, which is gelatinous, a semi liquid, we soon realize that the material in the head will not compress very much at all.

That pressure has to go somewhere.

With a small bore, and hyper velocity that pressure would be monumental. I dare say, head removing.

What I see in the z film is one shot from the rear. I can offer you my opinion on this.

There are two types of spatter forward, in the direction of the bullet, and back, which as it implies moves back towards the shooter.

Forward Spatter is higher in velocity, is much more diffuse, and generally far more prevalent. Back spatter is much lower in velocity, much less diffuse, and no where near as prevalent.

spat1-1.gif

WE can see that in the above example.

So the questions become two fold.

What do we see? What do we not see?

What we see is a slight movement of the head forward. Consistent with a rifle bullet strike.

We see a very diffuse cloud of matter exit the front of the head, forward spatter.

We do not see this replicated out of the back of the head, which we certainly would, had we witnessed a front striking rear exiting shot.

So why does the damage look so unusual?

Because by nature it is hard to categorize head wounds. The head being filled with fluid is going to crack open where ever it dang well pleases. It has to, that pressure just has to go someplace.

I have viewed a few head shots in my day, and one thing is certain, wounds created by exactly the same weapon, with exactly the same ammo, can look quite different.

I do not know if this helped at all David.

Mike

"I can only guess that Tom is making a scale reference here. The head of a rabbit with a small bore .22, and likewise the larger head of a man, and the larger projectile."

Actually!

One can shoot a rabbit with a "guilded" .22 round.

If the round strikes no bone, then the small caliber and limited velocity will usually allow the relatively soft bullet to pass through the flesh of the rabbit with little damage to the projectile. Sames holds true for shooting a squirrell with the same bullet.

However, if the bullet strikes any bone, then the destructive force to the prey is considerable, along with the damage to the projectile.

Likewise, even though a hollow-point will slightly flatten and distort upon impact with soft flesh of the rabbit/squirrell, it still will not destruct to the extent as did the head-shot bullet of the Z313 impact to the head of JFK.

Lastly, in addition to the physical evidence of the forward "jet effect" of the cerebral tissue of JFK along with the forward momentum of the bullet fragments from this shot, if one reviews (& understands) the autopsy X-rays, then one can see exactly where this bullet began it's initial exit from within the skull of JFK.

Which, just so happens to be forward ot the skull penetration which was created by the bullet, and which lies in the rear of JFK's skull.

So! This certainly has a difficulty rating of approximately 2 on a scale of 10, in resolving from which direction the bullet struck, and from which direction it exited.

And, about the only item of any complexity is in determination of exactly why/how the bullet managed to fragment in the manner in which it did.

Which rates about 5 on the difficulty scale!

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Uh Tom...

Which faked and altered Xray are you refering to? The one which shows an intact back of the head and no skull bone on the left side forward of his ears? Or the other one that shows no skull bones at the right rear and a completely intact left front.

Maybe some other piece of thoroughly discredited medical evidence?

And I wonder what these professional Parkland Hospital employees are referring to?

It's cool that you have this whole thing figured out... just wish you would actually get to some point about how and why a bullet designed not to disintegrate, does, while leaving what has been recognized as a VAPOR TRAIL OF PARTICLES from a bullet designed to remain intact. How about the bullet or bullets that hit JFK were not FMJ 6.5 mm rounds.... rather than trying to squeeze the round peg of the bullet's characteristics into the square hole of what actually was witnessed.

Anything that we have with regards to the assassination's medical evidence after the body left Parkland is completely suspect... half truths at best. If the Xrays are faked/altered how can one say the "vapor trail of particles" was even there to begin with... because there is corroborating evidence. Please produce something that refutes this chart... the MC could only fire at most 2400 fps which corresponds to hardly any dmage at all - as designed... even at the top velocity the large nose piece and other large pieces are evident.... there is no mass of fine particles... again as designed.

But if you want to keep pushing that round peg at least produce a little support for your statements. More than willing to be wrong Tom, have re-evaluated my position in a number of areas... as the experts, if you and Mike could help us understand why/how you feel that JFK was hit with a FMJ 6.5mm round fired from ??? with a Carcano... It would be greatly appreciated.

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Hey there Mike... good to hear from you again.

Would enjoy your take on this.

When one goes and finds a recognized expert in the field who categorically states something:

P.S. "The explosion of the President's head as seen in frame 313 of the Zapruder film is simply not characteristic of a full metal-jacket rifle bullet traveling at 2,200 fps or less. It is far more consistent with an explosive wound of entry with a small-bore, hyper-velocity rifle bullet traveling between 3,000 and 4,000 fps, and probably toward the higher end of that scale"

Tom replies:

Being "not characteristic" does not imply not possible!

Hell! Anyone who has shot rabbits with a standard "gilded" .22 round and a "hollow-point" .22 round would know this.

One does not need Ayoob to recognize this simple fact.

The simple fact is, that for the most part, the head shot impact at Z313 is totally consistant with what a FMJ Carcano bullet can and will do when it strikes and penetrates the skull in the manner which IT DID!

You both know much more than I ever will about ballistics....

Why does Tom bring up "gilded" or "hollow-point" .22 rounds when we are talking about a FMJ 6.5mm round???

Does FMJ rounds completely disintegrate and leave vapor clouds along it path?

If the frontal shot exploded - what blows out the back of his head?

Does z313 +/- a few frames look like 2 simultaneous shots?

Since I truly don't understand how Ayoob can say one thing and then Tom simply shrug it off without any real response other than Ayoob being willing to accept a change in ideas - maybe you could clear it up for us?

DJ

David,

Man its good to hear from you again as well. Two horrid back surgeries later, and Im on the move, albeit slowly.

I can only guess that Tom is making a scale reference here. The head of a rabbit with a small bore .22, and likewise the larger head of a man, and the larger projectile.

I would have to disagree 100% with the author of the statement that the projectile were traveling 3000 to 4000 fps. Had this been the case, the secondary wound path would be huge.

If we think of the head as a vessel filled with a liquid, as blood, and cerebra fluid is a liquid, and brain matter, which is gelatinous, a semi liquid, we soon realize that the material in the head will not compress very much at all.

That pressure has to go somewhere.

With a small bore, and hyper velocity that pressure would be monumental. I dare say, head removing.

What I see in the z film is one shot from the rear. I can offer you my opinion on this.

There are two types of spatter forward, in the direction of the bullet, and back, which as it implies moves back towards the shooter.

Forward Spatter is higher in velocity, is much more diffuse, and generally far more prevalent. Back spatter is much lower in velocity, much less diffuse, and no where near as prevalent.

spat1-1.gif

WE can see that in the above example.

So the questions become two fold.

What do we see? What do we not see?

What we see is a slight movement of the head forward. Consistent with a rifle bullet strike.

We see a very diffuse cloud of matter exit the front of the head, forward spatter.

We do not see this replicated out of the back of the head, which we certainly would, had we witnessed a front striking rear exiting shot.

So why does the damage look so unusual?

Because by nature it is hard to categorize head wounds. The head being filled with fluid is going to crack open where ever it dang well pleases. It has to, that pressure just has to go someplace.

I have viewed a few head shots in my day, and one thing is certain, wounds created by exactly the same weapon, with exactly the same ammo, can look quite different.

I do not know if this helped at all David.

Mike

Hey there buddy,

Back surgery is horrible... had mine in '96... L4/5 herniation. Glad to hear/see your somewhat back in action.

With regards to blood splatter and your declaring the shot from the rear... makes sense that we see blood on the seat, in the limo, on John C, the agents, windshield, rearview mirror BUT

We can't forget Bobby Hargis being pelted with blood and debris and the multiple witnesses describing a halo of blood flying out the back of his head...

What are your thoughts on a rear shot and almost simultaneously a frontal shot - given what we've heard about Collins Radio and the likelihood that those involved were in contact with each other... "SHOOT" could have caused 1, 2 or even 3 simultaneous shots. Any indications in what we see on Zap supporting this (beyond the slight forward movement of his head and then the violent fall backward.

I suggest we don't see what we should see coming out of the back of the head for a very sinister reason. Almost 60 people standing right there - who were at least asked - also agree... this includes the SS, DPD, Senators, and civilians.

And I hear you about head shot damage... who knows. Would you at least agree that whatever was described BEFORE HE LEFT PARKLAND would naturally be more reliable than the chain of events that ultimately gets him to Bethesda... and the wounds seen there, in a military hospital, surrounded by military personnel... etc etc etc.

Of course it helped... thanks.

BTW - on an aside - know about that show Top Shot?

DJ

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...Likewise, even though a hollow-point will slightly flatten and distort upon impact with soft flesh of the rabbit/squirrell, it still will not destruct to the extent as did the head-shot bullet of the Z313 impact to the head of JFK... (emphasis added)

Hmmm...

33-3319t.gif

Greg...

unless you're just funning with us...

I tried to stay away from ce399 cause we'd all agree, well most of us, that that bullet passed thru no one - so to use it to compare to what happened to the bullet hitting JFK in the head - apples and oranges

Would have loved to hear an answer to the question, "So CE399 passed thru JFK, smashed JC's rib and wrist without so much as a scratch and the same type of bullet hit JFK on a boney substance and basically disintegrated..... what up? " and the beat goes on....

Arlen? where's Arlen to answer this one? :tomatoes

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...Likewise, even though a hollow-point will slightly flatten and distort upon impact with soft flesh of the rabbit/squirrell, it still will not destruct to the extent as did the head-shot bullet of the Z313 impact to the head of JFK... (emphasis added)

Hmmm...

33-3319t.gif

Greg...

unless you're just funning with us...

I tried to stay away from ce399 cause we'd all agree, well most of us, that that bullet passed thru no one - so to use it to compare to what happened to the bullet hitting JFK in the head - apples and oranges

Would have loved to hear an answer to the question, "So CE399 passed thru JFK, smashed JC's rib and wrist without so much as a scratch and the same type of bullet hit JFK on a boney substance and basically disintegrated..... what up? " and the beat goes on....

Arlen? where's Arlen to answer this one? :tomatoes

Good to see you, David. :P

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Hey there Mike... good to hear from you again.

Would enjoy your take on this.

When one goes and finds a recognized expert in the field who categorically states something:

P.S. "The explosion of the President's head as seen in frame 313 of the Zapruder film is simply not characteristic of a full metal-jacket rifle bullet traveling at 2,200 fps or less. It is far more consistent with an explosive wound of entry with a small-bore, hyper-velocity rifle bullet traveling between 3,000 and 4,000 fps, and probably toward the higher end of that scale"

Tom replies:

Being "not characteristic" does not imply not possible!

Hell! Anyone who has shot rabbits with a standard "gilded" .22 round and a "hollow-point" .22 round would know this.

One does not need Ayoob to recognize this simple fact.

The simple fact is, that for the most part, the head shot impact at Z313 is totally consistant with what a FMJ Carcano bullet can and will do when it strikes and penetrates the skull in the manner which IT DID!

You both know much more than I ever will about ballistics....

Why does Tom bring up "gilded" or "hollow-point" .22 rounds when we are talking about a FMJ 6.5mm round???

Does FMJ rounds completely disintegrate and leave vapor clouds along it path?

If the frontal shot exploded - what blows out the back of his head?

Does z313 +/- a few frames look like 2 simultaneous shots?

Since I truly don't understand how Ayoob can say one thing and then Tom simply shrug it off without any real response other than Ayoob being willing to accept a change in ideas - maybe you could clear it up for us?

DJ

David,

Man its good to hear from you again as well. Two horrid back surgeries later, and Im on the move, albeit slowly.

I can only guess that Tom is making a scale reference here. The head of a rabbit with a small bore .22, and likewise the larger head of a man, and the larger projectile.

I would have to disagree 100% with the author of the statement that the projectile were traveling 3000 to 4000 fps. Had this been the case, the secondary wound path would be huge.

If we think of the head as a vessel filled with a liquid, as blood, and cerebra fluid is a liquid, and brain matter, which is gelatinous, a semi liquid, we soon realize that the material in the head will not compress very much at all.

That pressure has to go somewhere.

With a small bore, and hyper velocity that pressure would be monumental. I dare say, head removing.

What I see in the z film is one shot from the rear. I can offer you my opinion on this.

There are two types of spatter forward, in the direction of the bullet, and back, which as it implies moves back towards the shooter.

Forward Spatter is higher in velocity, is much more diffuse, and generally far more prevalent. Back spatter is much lower in velocity, much less diffuse, and no where near as prevalent.

spat1-1.gif

WE can see that in the above example.

So the questions become two fold.

What do we see? What do we not see?

What we see is a slight movement of the head forward. Consistent with a rifle bullet strike.

We see a very diffuse cloud of matter exit the front of the head, forward spatter.

We do not see this replicated out of the back of the head, which we certainly would, had we witnessed a front striking rear exiting shot.

So why does the damage look so unusual?

Because by nature it is hard to categorize head wounds. The head being filled with fluid is going to crack open where ever it dang well pleases. It has to, that pressure just has to go someplace.

I have viewed a few head shots in my day, and one thing is certain, wounds created by exactly the same weapon, with exactly the same ammo, can look quite different.

I do not know if this helped at all David.

Mike

Hey there buddy,

Back surgery is horrible... had mine in '96... L4/5 herniation. Glad to hear/see your somewhat back in action.

With regards to blood splatter and your declaring the shot from the rear... makes sense that we see blood on the seat, in the limo, on John C, the agents, windshield, rearview mirror BUT

We can't forget Bobby Hargis being pelted with blood and debris and the multiple witnesses describing a halo of blood flying out the back of his head...

What are your thoughts on a rear shot and almost simultaneously a frontal shot - given what we've heard about Collins Radio and the likelihood that those involved were in contact with each other... "SHOOT" could have caused 1, 2 or even 3 simultaneous shots. Any indications in what we see on Zap supporting this (beyond the slight forward movement of his head and then the violent fall backward.

I suggest we don't see what we should see coming out of the back of the head for a very sinister reason. Almost 60 people standing right there - who were at least asked - also agree... this includes the SS, DPD, Senators, and civilians.

And I hear you about head shot damage... who knows. Would you at least agree that whatever was described BEFORE HE LEFT PARKLAND would naturally be more reliable than the chain of events that ultimately gets him to Bethesda... and the wounds seen there, in a military hospital, surrounded by military personnel... etc etc etc.

Of course it helped... thanks.

BTW - on an aside - know about that show Top Shot?

DJ

David,

I had a piece of metal lodged in my back, and a herniated disc shoved it into my sciatic nerve, it was cutting into it and well...most unpleasant.

The statement about the halo coming out of the back of the head is our biggest indication that this is back spatter, and in the direction of the shooter. We do not see this on the z film. I contend the reason we do not see it is because it is far less visible, and well, the z film is sure not in high definition.

Bobby Hargis did encounter debris, I have no doubt about that. The question here is, did something slam into Hargis, or did Hargis slam into something? I dare say it would be difficult to tell from the riders perspective. A .5 ounce of matter, which would be a pretty small piece, impacts at 2.5 ounces at just 5 miles an hour. (weight x speed)impact energy. So I have no doubt that Hargis would have felt matter hit him.

Multiple shots is something I look at heavily some years ago. The thoughts I have on this, is that it is very unlikely. My reasoning is pretty simple here. We just do not see multiple impacts. The backward motion we see, in my opinion, can not be contributed to a bullet. Bullets just do not transfer that much energy to the target. Further we really only see one spatter pattern from the front of the head. With multiple shots we would have seen this pattern repeated for each shot.

To address the medical evidence I must confess is a bit intimidating for a simple minded sob like myself. So very much of it relies on witness testimony. One thing I do acknowledge, is that all of the doctors seem to agree that what they see in the xrays, is representative of what they saw at Parkland. This is very disconcerting because we have different description of what was actually seen. So I ask myself, how can they agree on the xrays being accurate, and then disagree about what they saw? So it seems this whole mess goes right back to witness reliability.

I can say that what we see in the xrays, is perfectly represented by the Warren Commissions findings that one bullet entered the rear. Honestly to me the medical evidence is the most difficult.

Other issues I have with a front shot add to my belief that this never happened. Some of those other issues include:

1) The lack of a viable shooting position from the front left. This position has to accomplish a couple things. It has to leave a wound that does no left side damage to the Presidents head, which almost all the medical evidence agrees on, and it also has to leave Jackie unwounded. I have worked the map to death, and can still not find one location in the front of that limo that satisfies this.

2) The Xrays themselves show a back to front dispersal of particles. Meaning the bullet was intact upon entry and shattered moving forward. Further, we see no rear directing particle dispersal.

3) We simply have not one shred of evidence of any other shots being fired that day. Im looking for hard physical evidence, not unreliable witness testimony.

These are just a few of my issues with a front to back shot.

I'm sure you know me well enough to know that I do not believe in any evidence alteration. One of the main reasons I do not believe in this, is what we do have in evidence is to consistent with itself. Meaning the story we have been given, does fit the physical evidence. Perhaps I am naive, but I really believe if a mass alteration cover up occurred we could find it pretty readily with the technology we have in this day and age. To date, I have not read one credible account, nor witnessed one bonafide expert come forward to claim things have been altered.

Now on a side note. You know I am pretty firmly in the LN camp. You probably also know I have my own JFK website. If you should ever decide that you would like to write an article for that site, please let me know. Id love to post it for you. I do believe that there are questions left unanswered, and I think these questions hamper not only research, but history in general. In my opinion, for whatever that's worth, these unanswered questions by the CT community promote research for the whole community.

I have articles from both sides of the coin, and post them.

Im glad to hear you are well buddy.

Mike

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Great post Mike... thanks

and I would love to write for your site... just wish I was a better writer, period.

I'm finally getting out of work and will look at this post again at home and reply... You've said some interesting things.

I will leave you with this... Kellerman himself basically tells the WC that there were more than 3 shots

and Homer McMahon claims to have seen the Z film and it showed 6-8 shots from 3 different directions - but no one would hear of it.

One has to ask oneself why he would say such a thing.

DJ

ps PLEASE get "JFK and the Unspeakable" and read it. Amazing wealth of info and all in one place. Of course it's CT slanted... but once you read some of the things in there you may see the CTer in a different light. Then again, maybe not... :ph34r: LOL

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