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Jim F - if the bullet exploded after hitting the temple


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Early on in this thread, there was some incorrect information given out about hollow point bullets by Tom Purvis and Mike Williams. I am not saying we were deliberately misled; it is very possible these two simply do not have as much experience as they believe.

The most glaring error is the statement that hollow point bullets travelling through semi-liquid flesh (ie. brain or abdominal matter) will not expand, and will simply travel through and exit the other side, fully intact. As an example, they use shooting a rabbit with a low velocity .22 long rifle mushroom (hollow point) bullet.

Growing up in the farmland of SW Saskatchewan, I spent a good part of my youth attempting to rid the planet of the Richardson's Ground Squirrel (urocitellus richardsonii) or just plain "gopher" as we called them. As kids, we would trap them, snare them, drown them out of their burrows with water or do anything we could dream up to annihilate them. As we got older, we acquired .22 rifles. I had a Cooey single shot and was always jealous of a friend of mine whose father bought him a Gevelot semi-auto .22 equipped with a scope. My jealousy only grew when he showed up one day and his dad had bought him a silencer for this rifle. It was so cool! The only sound to be heard was the bolt of the semi-auto going back and forth with each shot. Of course, we really didn't need a silenced weapon to shoot gophers out in the middle of the prairie but, to a 13 year old, it was still ultimately cool.

Anyways, it wasn't very far into our gopher shooting expeditions that some older person suggested we buy .22 LR mushroom (hollow point) bullets instead of the regular .22 Long Rifle bullets we had been using. These worked very well, and some of the most effective shots, contrary to what Messrs. Williams and Purvis told you, were abdominal shots that did not touch any bone at all. Time after time, we would see a gopher with a tiny .22 calibre entrance wound in his stomach, and most of his abdominal contents eviscerated out his back through a much larger exit hole.

Sound impossible? Listen closely then.

As I have stated on this forum many times, hollow point and fragmenting bullets are more than capable of penetrating human or deer skull without "blowing up", fragmenting or even suffering any great degree of deformation. As I have stated, it is not uncommon to shoot a deer in the head with a high velocity hollow point and see a wound of entrance the same diameter as an intact bullet, and a massive exit wound.

To understand this, you have to understand what makes a hollow point bullet open up. When the HP bullet is travelling through flesh or liquid, the hollow (cavity) of the HP bullet actually fills with this liquid material. As it continues travelling through, additional liquid encountered applies pressure to the liquid already in the cavity and, with the bullet being made of soft lead, it succumbs to this pressure and begins opening outward. The more it opens, the more liquid is applying pressure to the internal cavity of the hollow point and the faster it opens; eventually opening completely outwards and, in some cases, depending on bullet construction, completely breaking apart into tiny fragments. Of course, this effect is magnified as the speed of the bullet is increased.

And that is how you can eviscerate a gopher by shooting him in the stomach with a hollow point .22 bullet.

And that is also why JFK was not shot in the head with a full metal jacket bullet travelling 2200 fps.

Edited by Robert Prudhomme
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Hi John

It may have done that, ploughing its way around and then exiting, but I seriously doubt it.

What do you think of this idea? One bullet entered the back of the head, in the vicinity of the EOP (lower part of the back of the head) and God only knows what became of it, or what type of bullet it was. Entering the skull, it made a neat 1/4" hole going in but weakened the skull at that point.

A fraction of a second later, a second bullet enters at the right temple. It is either a hollow point, fragmenting, frangible or even a mercury tipped bullet. Whatever it is, it is travelling in a path that should make it exit the left side of JFK's head. But, because of the type of bullet it is, it breaks apart into tiny fragments and never does exit. However, all of this energy being absorbed by this bullet coming to a complete stop creates a tremendous wave of hydraulic pressure. This pressure was more than the water tight structure of the skull could contain, and there was a blowout at the weakest point, the tiny hole made by the first bullet.

Humes and Boswell, in interviews, both describe a wound in the rear with half of a bullet hole in it.

P.S. About that first bullet. There may very well have been shooters behind JFK shooting FMJ ammo, thinking they could accomplish the task with these. The shooter on the Knoll may have been the only one with fragmenting ammo, and he may also have had orders to shoot ONLY if it looked like the other shooters had failed.

Edited by Robert Prudhomme
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The following is the description of the head wounds WITHIN the skull and brain as told by HUMES

Below that are anatomical illustrations of these locations with lines dissecting the location of the wounds... (numbered the same as Humes' testimony)

A Trail of particles exists ABOVE the uppermost wound line while there is an absence of evidence and brain matter which would have led from the front right temple to the back right rear blow-out..

NOT the 5+inch hole in Bethesda, but the 2-3 inch hole as seen by everyone in Dallas...

Without a brain there... and poorly taken x-rays.. the path which created the right rear blow-out is gone, which was Humes' primary mission... obliterate evidence of a shot from the right out the back of the head...

If anyone can address WHICH ENTRY ON THE BACK OF THE HEAD lines up with the particles as seen in these xrays - it could explain alot...

I am claiming that the bullet hitting JFK in the front was NOT a FMJ bullet and the largest fragment of which created the hole ar the right rear, while the rest of the particles rise to the back left of JFK's head..

Bottom line question - how can what was described in Bethesda be related to multiple bullet wounds if HUMES destroyes the evidence prior to x-rays and photos which are seen by the public?

DJ

HUMES:

(1)There was a longitudinal laceration of the right hemisphere which was parasagittal in position. By the saggital plane, as you may know, is a plane in the midline which would divide the brain into right and left halves. This laceration was parasagittal. It was situated approximately 2.5 cm. to the right of the midline, and extended from the tip of occipital lobe, which is the posterior portion of the brain, to the tip of the frontal lobe which is the most anterior portion of the brain, and it extended from the top down to the substance of the brain a distance of approximately 5 or 6 cm.

The base of the laceration was situated approximately 4.5 cm. below the vertex in the white matter. By the vertex we mean--the highest point on the skull is referred to as the vertex.

(DJ: Now Pat - Humes here is saying that this laceration - which runs the entire length of JFK's Brain - extends 5-6cms into the brain...yet he follows with the BASE of the same laceration, as measured from a point HIGHER than the brain, the VERTEX of the skull, and yet the depth is LESS than is seen within the brain itself.... what do you think "it extended from the top down to the substance of the brain a distance of approximately 5 or 6 cm" means?)

The area in which the (2) greatest loss of brain substance was particularly in the parietal lobe,

In addition, there was (3) a laceration of the corpus callosum Exposed in this laceration were portions of the ventricular system in which the spinal fluid normally is disposed within the brain

When the brain was turned over and (4) viewed from its basular or inferior aspect, there was found a longitudinal laceration of the mid-brain through the floor of the third ventricle, just behind the optic chiasma and the mammillary bodies.This laceration partially communicates with an oblique (4) 1.5 cm. tear through the left cerebral peduncle. This is a portion of the brain which connects the higher centers of the brain with the spinal cord which is more concerned with reflex actions.

Brainandskulldetail-Illustratedwoundsacc

xraycomparison_zps595e3cdd.jpg

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simple-Glaser Safety Slug-invented by Jack Cannon with a really interesting background. Add Mitch Werbell's suppressors and it explains a lot. Knew them both and they were hard folks.

Glaser Safety Slug, Inc. developed the first frangible bullet in 1974 to provide reduced ricochet and over-penetration danger with improved stopping power over conventional bullets...

Now we have bullets traveling back in time as well.... ??

I realize that hand-made bullets and suppressors could have been used... and probably were.... if larger pieces are used in the filling of these bullets I imagine the damage would be as devastating and could account for the large "fragment" blowing the back of the head out while leaving smaller and smaller particles elsewhere in the skull/brain...

Thanks Evan

DJ

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The Glaser was around for a long time before it became commercially available. jack showed some early samples long before 1974.

Jack's background ought to examined carefully as he and Werbell had deep ties to the old China hands in OSS. Red Applegate knew a lot of stuff but he kept his mouth shut and died of old age.

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David

There did not have to be an exiting fragment to make the large wound in the rear of JFK's head.

When you inflate a balloon to the point it ruptures, is there a fragment that makes the hole or is it just air pressure?

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As for my ability to read, I can tell you that Frazier states that the 15 yard targets were fired for speed, not accuracy, a

Your claim that Frazier stated that the goal of the 15-yard tests was to assess speed alone is false.

Mr. EISENBERG - This test was performed at 15 yards, did you say, Mr. Frazier?

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir. And this series of shots we fired to determine actually the speed at which the rifle could be fired, not being overly familiar with this particular firearm, and also to determine the accuracy of the weapon under those conditions.

al·so

[awl-soh]

adverb 1. in addition; too; besides; as well:

Source:Dictionary.com

Edited by Andric Perez
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Interesting, Andric. I see that Mr. Williams makes the claim that test shots were fired at 15 yards, and the scope adjusted before any other shots were fired. This, too, is false and, of course, Mr. Williams does not back this false claim up with testimony from Mr. Frazier, simply because there is none to support this.

Mr. Williams also parrots Frazier's outrageous claim that the scope needed "some shots to settle" after adjustments were made to it. Luckily for Messrs. Williams and Frazier, the majority of the public does not know much about rifle scopes.

From the WC testimony of SA Robert Frazier:

"And, therefore, we left the rifle as soon as it became stabilized and fired all of our shots with the point of impact actually high and to the right."

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David

There did not have to be an exiting fragment to make the large wound in the rear of JFK's head.

When you inflate a balloon to the point it ruptures, is there a fragment that makes the hole or is it just air pressure?

Makes sense Robert... yes... yet wouldn't the escaping pressure move toward the opening in the skull, the bullet hole... before the pressure breaks open another area of the head that does not have any openings? Or do the fracture lines allow for any area of the "balloon" to burst open...

My real point is we do not have ANY fragment trail toward the lower rear due to the work Humes did removing brain and other tissue, not cause there should have been one there, necessarily.

In the thread with PAT... the argument is that the autopsy results suggest multiple shots hitting JFK... when we ask PAT to differentiate the evidence of shots with the evidence of what HUMES did and the resulting autopsy descriptions... he cannot.

The evidence we have only shows the massive extension and disruption of the skull wounds which were performed between 6:30 and 8pm...

I ask again, can anyone imagine the Parkland ER trying to save a man's life with the Bethesda xrays offered as his "condition" at the time he was shot....

A single bullet tho the head from front to back becomes 3 separate lines of damage which obliterate the skull so much so the scalp and skull fall apart when moved

and the man's brain basically falls out... the spinal cord and other AUTOPSY PROCEDURES having already been done to the cranial vault prior to 8pm.

But we agree that a FMJ bullet does not disintegrate at those speeds nor does it leave clouds of micro particles.... so whatever hit him was NOT a 6.5mm FMJ bullet from the rear.

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