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After Action Report confirms 6:05 casket arrival


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Reading Burkely's account he mentions the large Dallas casket as being METAL... which it appears to have been as it was also described as metal during the process of drilling holes in it to bury it at sea... I realize the embalmer's notes says "metal shipping casket" - I had wondered if they might have been referring to the Britannia that traveled from Dallas.... yet the big metal casket does not really look anything like a metal shipping casket.

This is turn led me into some research to discover if indeed the Dallas casket was metal...

and then this in turn led me to this After Action Report that recaps the entire weekend.

In all that I've read about the 3 casket entries I've only heard of Dennis David's account and Boyajian's report as substantiation...

These are excerpts from Paul C Miller's After Action Report... not only does this cast an interesting twist to the timeline, but it also shows how reluctant the Secret Service was in relinquishing control....

http://www.jfklibrary.org/Asset-Viewer/AvgHTcetGk2YnX9gizP7ng.aspx

The transferring of the "remains" off the airplane as orchestrated by the Secret Service needs much more... the front right door comes to mind.

In any case... I created this collage of the pertinent pieces of his report... according to this report the casket arrives at 6:05 at Andrews yet according to Boyajian they do not remove the casket until 6:35....

If this has been brought out before, please excuse me... not having remembered reading about this report in support of Lifton/Horne's conclusions about the casket entries - I thought it was worth posting.

DJ

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Reading Burkely's account he mentions the large Dallas casket as being METAL... which it appears to have been as it was also described as metal during the process of drilling holes in it to bury it at sea... I realize the embalmer's notes says "metal shipping casket" - I had wondered if they might have been referring to the Britannia that traveled from Dallas.... yet the big metal casket does not really look anything like a metal shipping casket.

This is turn led me into some research to discover if indeed the Dallas casket was metal...

and then this in turn led me to this After Action Report that recaps the entire weekend.

In all that I've read about the 3 casket entries I've only heard of Dennis David's account and Boyajian's report as substantiation...

These are excerpts from Paul C Miller's After Action Report... not only does this cast an interesting twist to the timeline, but it also shows how reluctant the Secret Service was in relinquishing control....

http://www.jfklibrary.org/Asset-Viewer/AvgHTcetGk2YnX9gizP7ng.aspx

The transferring of the "remains" off the airplane as orchestrated by the Secret Service needs much more... the front right door comes to mind.

In any case... I created this collage of the pertinent pieces of his report... according to this report the casket arrives at 6:05 at Andrews yet according to Boyajian they do not remove the casket until 6:35....

Where does Boyajian say that the casket was not removed from the plane at Andrews until 6:35 (1835)? In the document you posted, item #3 of the Boyajian document says the casket was *received* at the *morgue* at 1835.(Which, as I recall, is incorrect as the ambulance entered the grounds at Bethesda at 1855 (6:55pm). But, nonetheless, one report talks about the time the plane with the casket arrived at Andrews .... the other is talking about the time the casket arrived at the morgue at Bethesda.

Bests,

Barb :-)

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Reading Burkely's account he mentions the large Dallas casket as being METAL... which it appears to have been as it was also described as metal during the process of drilling holes in it to bury it at sea... I realize the embalmer's notes says "metal shipping casket" - I had wondered if they might have been referring to the Britannia that traveled from Dallas.... yet the big metal casket does not really look anything like a metal shipping casket.

This is turn led me into some research to discover if indeed the Dallas casket was metal...

and then this in turn led me to this After Action Report that recaps the entire weekend.

In all that I've read about the 3 casket entries I've only heard of Dennis David's account and Boyajian's report as substantiation...

These are excerpts from Paul C Miller's After Action Report... not only does this cast an interesting twist to the timeline, but it also shows how reluctant the Secret Service was in relinquishing control....

http://www.jfklibrary.org/Asset-Viewer/AvgHTcetGk2YnX9gizP7ng.aspx

The transferring of the "remains" off the airplane as orchestrated by the Secret Service needs much more... the front right door comes to mind.

In any case... I created this collage of the pertinent pieces of his report... according to this report the casket arrives at 6:05 at Andrews yet according to Boyajian they do not remove the casket until 6:35....

Where does Boyajian say that the casket was not removed from the plane at Andrews until 6:35 (1835)? In the document you posted, item #3 of the Boyajian document says the casket was *received* at the *morgue* at 1835.(Which, as I recall, is incorrect as the ambulance entered the grounds at Bethesda at 1855 (6:55pm). But, nonetheless, one report talks about the time the plane with the casket arrived at Andrews .... the other is talking about the time the casket arrived at the morgue at Bethesda.

Bests,

Barb :-)

Thanks Barb...

You are indeed correct... The plane lands at 6:05, Boyajian is at Bethesda with his group at 6:00 waiting for the casket... a casket arrives at 6:35 - he never says specifically his detail brings the casket inside, only that it was receieved and taken inside.

So who is the "joint service casket bearer and security detail" that met the remains at Andrews and then were flown to Bethesda to transfer the remains to the US Naval Med Center? Was this the detail that chases hearses around and ultimately takes a casket inside at 7:17?

Who was in this detail as opposed to Boyajian's?

I'll get back to the books and such to clarify my understanding... I guess the real questions are

- how long did this other detail sit at Andrews?

- when did the hearse leave Andrews?

- was anything else flown with this detail to Bethesda or elsewhere?

- how many helicopters took off from Andrews after the casket was off-loaded?

thanks for your input Barb

DJ

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Thanks Barb...

You are indeed correct... The plane lands at 6:05, Boyajian is at Bethesda with his group at 6:00 waiting for the casket... a casket arrives at 6:35 - he never says specifically his detail brings the casket inside, only that it was receieved and taken inside.

So who is the "joint service casket bearer and security detail" that met the remains at Andrews and then were flown to Bethesda to transfer the remains to the US Naval Med Center? Was this the detail that chases hearses around and ultimately takes a casket inside at 7:17?

Who was in this detail as opposed to Boyajian's?

I'll get back to the books and such to clarify my understanding... I guess the real questions are

- how long did this other detail sit at Andrews?

- when did the hearse leave Andrews?

- was anything else flown with this detail to Bethesda or elsewhere?

- how many helicopters took off from Andrews after the casket was off-loaded?

thanks for your input Barb

DJ

Hi David,

I think part of the confusion is that you have reports by different entities, with different jobs ... and they are each talking about *their* men .... and those are not the *same* men.

Miller was the Chief of Ceremonies & Special Events for the Army MDW (Military District of Washington). They were the ceremonial dudes who escorted caskets, for instance.

Boyajian was a Sargeant in the Marine Corp and his job was security at Bethesda.

Miller sent a ceremonial team to Bethesda to unload the casket from the plane with some degree of pomp & circumstance, and then to again, at Bethesda, unload the casket from the ambulance and escort it into the morgue. But the SS agents who had been with JFK in Dallas that day, weren't going to relinquish the president to anyone else for his arrival back in D.C> ... they told Miller's ceremonial people that they would take the casket off and into the ambulance. They tried, they struggled, as Miller notes in his report, but it was heavy and they weren't trained to do that and needed some assistance. So, the casket is in the ambulance and the motorcade to Bethesda begins. That ceremonial detail gets on their helicopter and heads to Bethesda where it is then their duty to unload the casket and see it into the morgue.

Boyajian's men were only at Bethesda. Their duties that evening, as Boyajian details in #2 of the report you posted, was to provide security ... cordon off entrances and exits, as well as provide a cordon around the casket as it was being offloaded and escorted in to keep it protected from prying news eyes and cameras.

Part of the MDW ceremonial team was security as well per the report. They would have had however many helicopters needed to transport them to Bethesda.

Boyajian's men at Bethesda had to wait until the casket arrived ... and per his report, there were changes in the expected times and what doors would be used, etc and they were seen double timing it around the hospital going from one place to the other.

The hearse did not leave Bethesda until the body was ready to go back to the White House in the wee hours of the morning, and Greer drove it, just as he had driven it from Andrews to Bethesda.

I hesitate to toss times out without the documents in front of me ... but off the top of my head, I recall the ambulance arrived at the entrance to Bethesda at 6:55pm .... proceeded to the front where Jackie and RFK got out, stayed there for a few minutes, then proceeded around back to the morgue dock where the casket was offloaded at 7:17 ... taken inside, and after set up and some preliminaries, which would include photos and x-rays, the first incision (according to Humes, for one,as I recall) was at 8:15pm.It's been a long time since I discussed this aspect or looked at those documents. I know there are some different times mentioned by some witnesses, but I believe the above are the best established times. So do check ... and I'll be interested to see what you find.

Hope this helps with the two *different* teams of men, at least.

Barb :-)

Edited by Barb Junkkarinen
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Thanks Barb...

You are indeed correct... The plane lands at 6:05, Boyajian is at Bethesda with his group at 6:00 waiting for the casket... a casket arrives at 6:35 - he never says specifically his detail brings the casket inside, only that it was receieved and taken inside.

So who is the "joint service casket bearer and security detail" that met the remains at Andrews and then were flown to Bethesda to transfer the remains to the US Naval Med Center? Was this the detail that chases hearses around and ultimately takes a casket inside at 7:17?

Who was in this detail as opposed to Boyajian's?

I'll get back to the books and such to clarify my understanding... I guess the real questions are

- how long did this other detail sit at Andrews?

- when did the hearse leave Andrews?

- was anything else flown with this detail to Bethesda or elsewhere?

- how many helicopters took off from Andrews after the casket was off-loaded?

thanks for your input Barb

DJ

Hi David,

I think part of the confusion is that you have reports by different entities, with different jobs ... and they are each talking about *their* men .... and those are not the *same* men.

Miller was the Chief of Ceremonies & Special Events for the Army MDW (Military District of Washington). They were the ceremonial dudes who escorted caskets, for instance.

Boyajian was a Sargeant in the Marine Corp and his job was security at Bethesda.

Miller sent a ceremonial team to Bethesda to unload the casket from the plane with some degree of pomp & circumstance, and then to again, at Bethesda, unload the casket from the ambulance and escort it into the morgue. But the SS agents who had been with JFK in Dallas that day, weren't going to relinquish the president to anyone else for his arrival back in D.C> ... they told Miller's ceremonial people that they would take the casket off and into the ambulance. They tried, they struggled, as Miller notes in his report, but it was heavy and they weren't trained to do that and needed some assistance. So, the casket is in the ambulance and the motorcade to Bethesda begins. That ceremonial detail gets on their helicopter and heads to Bethesda where it is then their duty to unload the casket and see it into the morgue.

Boyajian's men were only at Bethesda. Their duties that evening, as Boyajian details in #2 of the report you posted, was to provide security ... cordon off entrances and exits, as well as provide a cordon around the casket as it was being offloaded and escorted in to keep it protected from prying news eyes and cameras.

Part of the MDW ceremonial team was security as well per the report. They would have had however many helicopters needed to transport them to Bethesda.

Boyajian's men at Bethesda had to wait until the casket arrived ... and per his report, there were changes in the expected times and what doors would be used, etc and they were seen double timing it around the hospital going from one place to the other.

The hearse did not leave Bethesda until the body was ready to go back to the White House in the wee hours of the morning, and Greer drove it, just as he had driven it from Andrews to Bethesda.

I hesitate to toss times out without the documents in front of me ... but off the top of my head, I recall the ambulance arrived at the entrance to Bethesda at 6:55pm .... proceeded to the front where Jackie and RFK got out, stayed there for a few minutes, then proceeded around back to the morgue dock where the casket was offloaded at 7:17 ... taken inside, and after set up and some preliminaries, which would include photos and x-rays, the first incision (according to Humes, for one,as I recall) was at 8:15pm.It's been a long time since I discussed this aspect or looked at those documents. I know there are some different times mentioned by some witnesses, but I believe the above are the best established times. So do check ... and I'll be interested to see what you find.

Hope this helps with the two *different* teams of men, at least.

Barb :-)

Yes, it does Barb, thanks again...

Here is Lifton's casket timeline... A hearse with the big, bronze Dallas coffin in it arrives out front of Bethesda at around 6:55, but as we know from Boyajian's report, the casket arrived at 6:35, and from Dennis David a metal shipping casket was off loaded and JFK was removed from this casket wrapped in plastic or in a body bag....

The contents of the Dallas casket are not seen until after 8pm when the MDW team unloads it. The loss of the hearse with this Casket is well documented... it would have to be sometime between 7:17 and 8pm that JFK is placed back into the Dallas Casket for formal entry.

Paul's report also mentions the MDW sticking around to perform security for the Autopsy... if the Marines were there with Boyajian, and the MDW was NOT a security detail but a ceremonial detail... why have them stick around??

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Reading Burkely's account he mentions the large Dallas casket as being METAL... which it appears to have been as it was also described as metal during the process of drilling holes in it to bury it at sea... I realize the embalmer's notes says "metal shipping casket" - I had wondered if they might have been referring to the Britannia that traveled from Dallas.... yet the big metal casket does not really look anything like a metal shipping casket.

This is turn led me into some research to discover if indeed the Dallas casket was metal...

and then this in turn led me to this After Action Report that recaps the entire weekend.

In all that I've read about the 3 casket entries I've only heard of Dennis David's account and Boyajian's report as substantiation...

These are excerpts from Paul C Miller's After Action Report... not only does this cast an interesting twist to the timeline, but it also shows how reluctant the Secret Service was in relinquishing control....

http://www.jfklibrary.org/Asset-Viewer/AvgHTcetGk2YnX9gizP7ng.aspx

The transferring of the "remains" off the airplane as orchestrated by the Secret Service needs much more... the front right door comes to mind.

In any case... I created this collage of the pertinent pieces of his report... according to this report the casket arrives at 6:05 at Andrews yet according to Boyajian they do not remove the casket until 6:35....

If this has been brought out before, please excuse me... not having remembered reading about this report in support of Lifton/Horne's conclusions about the casket entries - I thought it was worth posting.

DJ

David:

Your post creates some confusion by not being specific; in addition, it contains a serious misstatement of fact.

First of all, the 6:05 PM “casket arrival” is not a good title. Because the “arrival” you are apparently intending to discuss is not at the hospital, but at Andrews Air Force Base—i.e., your post begins by talking about the arrival time of Air Force One which is best described as “approximately” 6 p.m. EST

At Andrews, and immediateley after the 6 PM "arrival," the Dallas casket was offloaded and carried to the naval ambulance---a scene broadcast on national TV—and the ambulance pulled away at 6:10 PM EST.

That casket, based on the rest of the data (as spelled out in Best Evidence) must have been empty.

To tell the rest of the story, one should cite the primary source materials, not the Miller (summary) report written days later.

The two key documents are the report of Lt. Sam Bird, of the Joint Casket Bearer Team (which is MD 236 in the Doug Horne document set at the ARRB); and the Boyajian report (MD-163), written by Sgt. Roger Boyajian, the NCOIC (non-commissioned officer in charge) of the Marine Security Detail.

The MDW casket team, which was prevented from doing its job properly at AF-1, then took a helicopter to Bethesda Naval Hospital. They landed at 6:45 PM.; and were there, located near the front of the hospital, when the naval ambulance arrived at 6:53 PM (per the SS reports) or 6:55 PM (per the wire service reports).

Note: the naval ambulance arrived some 20 minutes AFTER the shipping casket with the President's body was delivered, at 6:35 PM (per the Boyajian report, corroborated by Dennis David, and Paul O'Connor). So that is one single event--the delivery of the shipping casket at 6:35 PM, witnessed by Dennis David, outside the room, and Paul O'Connor, inside the room, with the time being documented by the Boyajian report.

If you now go to Chapter 16 of Best Evidence, you will find a complete account of what happened, with regards to that casket team, after the naval ambulance, with the Dallas casket, arrived at the Bethesda front entrance. That account is based on detailed interviews I conducted in 1967-68, and additional information ascertained around 1979. Of particular importance is the detailed written account of Coastguardsman George Barnum, written on November 29, 1963. This account, written just a week after the assassination, records the details of how they were deceived--and sent on one wild goose chase after another, looking for "the ambulance." The bottom line: those fellows –who witnessed the arrival of the naval ambulance at 6:55 PM—were decoy’d and did not bring the ceremonial casket into the hospital until 8 pm. (the time listed in the MDW casket team document).

Meanwhile, the report of Boyajian, providing security at the autopsy room area (at the rear of the hospital) received the body (in a shipping casket, according to D David and Paul O’Connor) at 6:35 PM.

A major mistake in your post occurs when you write: “The contents of the Dallas casket are not seen until after 8pm when the MDW team unloads it.”

That is completely incorrect, and results in all kinds of confusion to anyone attempting to follow your narration of events. Because, in effect, your "time zero" is wrong. Again, it is completely incorrect to state that the body wasn’t observed, or seen, etc., until 8 PM. In fact, it was "received" at 6:35 PM; and that is when the doctors first observed the body.

The first record of any recorded observation, however, occurs with the two FBI agents, Sibert and O'Neill, who escorted the empty casket to the room at 7:17 P.M. (The two agents, of course, did NOT know it was empty; but we can reliably infer that because the Boyajian report records the entry of the body at 6:35 PM, and, fyi, there is much other data establishing that the body arrived a good 20 minutes before the naval ambulance carrying the Dallas coffin).

The FBI agents, who did not “lose” the ceremonial casket (that is, they did not "lose" the naval ambulance which contained that casket) brought it the morgue area, were kept out for a few minutes (to prevent them from learning that the body was there, before they were), then entered the morgue, and then witnessed the body being put on the table.

That time—according to their interview with Specter—was 7:17 PM.

So that is when they first “see” the doctor dealing with the body: 7:17 pm. And that is when Dr. Humes stated, in front of the two agents, that it was "apparent" that there had been "surgery of the head area, namely, in the top of the skull."

Anyway, that occurred at just a few minutes past 7:17 PM. Not 8pm.

Then, within minutes of 7:17 pm, they were cleared out of the room, supposedly for X-rays. (This is all spelled out both in the Sibert and O'Neill report, and in their ARRB testimony. See Chapter 28, Best Evidence, for details.)

But during that period—i.e., after the room was cleared (supposedly for X-rays)-- the body (which had been there since around 6:35 PM) was then returned to the big Dallas casket, that casket was brought outside, and then the casket team, which had been running around looking for the ambulance with that casket (again, see my account quoting Barnum's report) suddenly “found” it, and brought it in at 8 pm. (Again, see their report, for the time: i.e., "8 P.M." is the official "morgue entry time," per the MDW report).

Thus, we are dealing here with “3 entries of 2 caskets”; and the whole purpose (apparently) of this absurd exercise was to return the body to the Dallas casket in which it began its journey, and conceal the fact --at least in the US Army reports that would emanate from the Joint Casket Team--that Air Force One was carrying an empty coffin and that an intercept had taken place earlier in the day.

Here, again, are the three key times, as documented in separate reports:

6:35 PM: The original arrival of the body, in a shipping casket--an event that occurred prior to the arrival of the naval ambulance, with the Dallas casket, which occurred at 6:55 pm (approx). The time 6:35 is cited in the Boyajian report.

7:17: PM The arrival (at the morgue) of the Dallas casket (which was empty); that time is provided by FBI Agents Sibert and O'Neill, when they were interviewed by WC atty Specter, in March, 1964.

8:00 PM The official “delivery” of the Dallas casket, now containing the body. That time is cited as the official morgue entry time in the report of the MDW tri-service casket team. (And yes, based on my interviews, one or more of them actually witnessed the body of JFK being taken out of the Dallas casket after that 8 P.M. entry).

See chapter 16 for the story of the casket team; and chapter 28 of Best evidence for how all this was worked out, so that those who were present at the "first entry" (at 6:35 PM) were prevented from seeing the second entry (7:17 PM); and, in some cases, the third entry, too. They were sequestered. Of course, all this was helped along by the fact that some dozen or more lower level people were put under a military order not to talk, subject to court martial if they violated the order. (And those who did become aware of a "second casket" were told it was a "security measure."

On this score, remember these words, which Commander Humes tucked into his WC testimony as protection (imho) against any future legal charges:

QUOTE:

Specter: tell us who else in a general ay was present at the time the autopsy was conducted in addition to you three doctors, please?

Humes: "I must preface by saying it will be somewhat incomplete. My particular interest was on the examination of the president and not of the security measures of the other people who were present." (Citation: 2 WCH 349)

UNQUOTE

Anyway, starting at 8 pm (and specifically, at 8:15 pm) the “official autopsy” was then underway.

I’ve interviewed the entire casket team, and they sure did stay at Bethesda, and at the morgue; and, fyi, they provided the ceremonial escort when JFK's body, now embalmed, left Bethesda and went to the White House, where the coffin was placed in the East Room.

Again, keep in mind the difference between the USMC security detail, headed by Sgt. Boyajian, and the Joint tri-service casket team, headed by Lt. Sam Bird. The former was there to provide morgue security; the latter, for ceremonial purposes.

In the ARRB Collection, the Joint Casket bearer Team report is MD 163; Sgt. Boyajian’s report is MD-236.

Put them together, along with the interviews I conducted for chapter 16 (the Decoy Ambulance) plus the accounts of Dennis David (Ch 25) and O’Connor (Ch 26) and you will have the full story (akin to a 'bird's eye' view) of what happened at Bethesda on the night of 11/22/63—i.e., the “3 entries of 2 caskets.”

I have no doubt that any of this was part of the original plan to assassinate Kennedy; but it did happen (i.e., it did unfold in this somewhat chaotic manner) because there was an imperfect execution of that plan. Viewed that way, the assassination was elegant in conception, but bungled in execution.

Viewed that way, Best Evidence was about the "bungled plan"; whereas the focus of Final Charade is much more on what was "supposed to have happened," but did not. (And why).

From whichever perspective it is viewed, the bottom line is that there was a major plot in the assassination of President Kennedy, whose purpose was not just to murder the President, but to alter the body prior to autopsy, so as to falsify the circumstances of his death.

DSL

3/11/11 6 pm

Los Angeles, Ca

Edited by David Lifton
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Put them together, along with the interviews I conducted for chapter 16 (the Decoy Ambulance) plus the accounts of Dennis David (Ch 25) and O’Connor (Ch 26) and you will have the story of what happened at Bethedsa—i.e., the “3 entries of 2 caskets.”

DSL

David: It is difficult for the human mind to absorb all of this. Most of us are just regular people who go through life assuming that those we meet are acting in good faith, and usually they are.

You have opened us up to the dark side of human nature, and I am not surprised that a naive and innocent guy like David Von Pein cannot imagine that what you say is true. It reminds me of the holocaust. The first holocaust deniers were American Jews who at first refused to believe that a civilized nation like Germany could conceivably have done what we now know was done.

But the fact is that human beings are murderers (look at Libya today), and there are THOUSANDS of murders that go unsolved IN AMERICA every year, and each and every one is a grisly deed. And it is a very rare thing indeed when someone comes forward to confess!

So it breaks my heart when I read BEST EVIDENCE, and I am sure it broke your heart to write it.

I hope I speak for a great many civilized people when I say THANK YOU for having the GUTS to deal with this.

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Reading Burkely's account he mentions the large Dallas casket as being METAL... which it appears to have been as it was also described as metal during the process of drilling holes in it to bury it at sea... I realize the embalmer's notes says "metal shipping casket" - I had wondered if they might have been referring to the Britannia that traveled from Dallas.... yet the big metal casket does not really look anything like a metal shipping casket.

This is turn led me into some research to discover if indeed the Dallas casket was metal...

and then this in turn led me to this After Action Report that recaps the entire weekend.

In all that I've read about the 3 casket entries I've only heard of Dennis David's account and Boyajian's report as substantiation...

These are excerpts from Paul C Miller's After Action Report... not only does this cast an interesting twist to the timeline, but it also shows how reluctant the Secret Service was in relinquishing control....

http://www.jfklibrary.org/Asset-Viewer/AvgHTcetGk2YnX9gizP7ng.aspx

The transferring of the "remains" off the airplane as orchestrated by the Secret Service needs much more... the front right door comes to mind.

In any case... I created this collage of the pertinent pieces of his report... according to this report the casket arrives at 6:05 at Andrews yet according to Boyajian they do not remove the casket until 6:35....

If this has been brought out before, please excuse me... not having remembered reading about this report in support of Lifton/Horne's conclusions about the casket entries - I thought it was worth posting.

DJ

David:

Your post creates some confusion by not being specific; in addition, it contains a serious misstatement of fact.

First of all, the 6:05 PM casket arrival is not a good title. Because the arrival you are apparently intending to discuss is not at the hospital, but at Andrews Air Force Basei.e., your post begins by talking about the arrival time of Air Force One which is best described as approximately 6 p.m. EST

At Andrews, and immediateley after the 6 PM "arrival," the Dallas casket was offloaded and carried to the naval ambulance---a scene broadcast on national TVand the ambulance pulled away at 6:10 PM EST.

That casket, based on the rest of the data (as spelled out in Best Evidence) must have been empty.

which means then that the body was already on its way, in the metal shipping casket, offloaded from the right front of the plane and either driven or flown to Bethesda...

I am not sure whether BE states that JFK was already on his way via AF-2 or some other earlier switch but I seem to remember your position was JFK was on AF-1 and in the metal casket elsewhere on the plane.

To tell the rest of the story, one should cite the primary source materials, not the Miller (summary) report written days later.

The two key documents are the report of Lt. Sam Bird, of the Joint Casket Bearer Team (which is MD 236 in the Doug Horne document set at the ARRB); and the Boyajian report (MD-163), written by Sgt. Roger Boyajian, the NCOIC (non-commissioned officer in charge) of the Marine Security Detail.

The MDW casket team, which was prevented from doing its job properly at AF-1, then took a helicopter to Bethesda Naval Hospital. They landed at 6:45 PM.; and were there, located near the front of the hospital, when the naval ambulance arrived at 6:53 PM (per the SS reports) or 6:55 PM (per the wire service reports).

Note: the naval ambulance arrived some 20 minutes AFTER the shipping casket with the President's body was delivered, at 6:35 PM (per the Boyajian report, corroborated by Dennis David, and Paul O'Connor). So that is one single event--the delivery of the shipping casket at 6:35 PM, witnessed by Dennis David, outside the room, and Paul O'Connor, inside the room, with the time being documented by the Boyajian report.

If you now go to Chapter 16 of Best Evidence, you will find a complete account of what happened, with regards to that casket team, after the naval ambulance, with the Dallas casket, arrived at the Bethesda front entrance. That account is based on detailed interviews I conducted in 1967-68, and additional information ascertained around 1979. Of particular importance is the detailed written account of Coastguardsman George Barnum, written on November 29, 1963. This account, written just a week after the assassination, records the details of how they were deceived--and sent on one wild goose chase after another, looking for "the ambulance." The bottom line: those fellows who witnessed the arrival of the naval ambulance at 6:55 PMwere decoyd and did not bring the ceremonial casket into the hospital until 8 pm. (the time listed in the MDW casket team document).

Meanwhile, the report of Boyajian, providing security at the autopsy room area (at the rear of the hospital) received the body (in a shipping casket, according to D David and Paul OConnor) at 6:35 PM.

David with Boyajians team handling security why does Paul Miller state that the MDW was retained for security?? They could double as a security detail as well as the casket detail?

A major mistake in your post occurs when you write: The contents of the Dallas casket are not seen until after 8pm when the MDW team unloads it.

That is completely incorrect, and results in all kinds of confusion to anyone attempting to follow your narration of events. Because, in effect, your "time zero" is wrong. Again, it is completely incorrect to state that the body wasnt observed, or seen, etc., until 8 PM. In fact, it was "received" at 6:35 PM; and that is when the doctors first observed the body.

David...

Thanks for the post... and please continue to correct me where I am wrong...

If the Dallas Casket arrives at the front at 6:55 (empty) and then at the morgue at 7:17 (again, empty) at some point the body is placed back into the Dallas Casket (after 7:17 and before 8pm) and is then finally off loaded by the MDW, then what is the mistake in stating that The contents of the Dallas casket are not seen until after 8pm when the MDW team unloads it ??

The SS, probably led by Kellerman/Greer, clears the ante-room while JFKs body is actually laying in the morgue, and transfers the body back to the Dallas Casket... and then somehow back out to the Hearse that originally took the casket from Andrews so the MDW can do their job.

For all intents and purposes the contents of the Dallas Casket (the fact it is empty) is NEVER discovered by anyone other than the SS... with Humes and Boswell and an amphitheater of spectators including Reed/Robinson prior to 7:17pm?... The FBI and anyone not involved with the 6:35 delivery never sees the contents of the Dallas Casket until after 8pm as well (all except the SS).

I never said the body wasnt observed or seen, until 8pm What I said and implied was the official opening of the Dallas Casket, after the MDW records the entrance into the morgue, was the first time anyone other than the SS see the inside of the Dallas Casket now with JFKs body in it.

The reality is that xrays and some sort of work is done on JFK from 6:35 till just before 8pm as confirmed by Finck later on.

The first record of any recorded observation, however, occurs with the two FBI agents, Sibert and O'Neill, who escorted the empty casket to the room at 7:17 P.M. (The two agents, of course, did NOT know it was empty; but we can reliably infer that because the Boyajian report records the entry of the body at 6:35 PM, and, fyi, there is much other data establishing that the body arrived a good 20 minutes before the naval ambulance carrying the Dallas coffin).

The FBI agents, who did not lose the ceremonial casket (that is, they did not "lose" the naval ambulance which contained that casket) brought it the morgue area, were kept out for a few minutes, then entered the morgue, and then witnessed the body being put on the table.

That timeaccording to their interview with Specterwas 7:17 PM.

So that is when they first see the doctor dealing with the body: 7:17 pm. And that is when Dr. Humes stated, in front of the two agents, that it was "apparent" that there had been "surgery of the head area, namely, in the top of the skull."

Anyway, that occurred at just a few minutes past 7:17 PM. Not 8pm.

If Sibert and ONeill (along with Greer / Kellerman ONLY) are aware of the 7:17 viewing of JFKs body how are they not up in arms over an 8pm re-entry of the Dallas Casket now with JFK in it?

From the Sibert/ONeill report:

The Presidents body was removed from the casket in which it had been transported and was placed on the autopsy table, at which time the complete body was wrapped in a sheet and the head area contained an additional wrapping which was saturated with blood. Following the removal of the wrapping, it was ascertained that the Presidents clothing had been removed and it was also apparent that a tracheotomy had been performed, as well as surgery of the head area, namely, in the top of the skull. All personnel with the exception of medical officers needed in the taking of photographs and X-Rays were requested to leave the autopsy room and remain in an adjacent room.

Upon completion of X-Rays and photographs, the first incision was made at 8:15 p.m.

David are you suggesting that Sibert and ONeill were also involved? There is no mention of what you claim MUST have happened... the bodys transfer from the morgue table to the Dallas Casket to the Hearse for an 8pm re-entry. As written and as you stated... starting at 7:17 thru 8:15 the body was being photographed and x-rayed how do these FBI men miss the re-entry and movement of the body that has to occur between 7:45 and 8pm or so??

Then, within minutes of 7:17 pm, they were cleared out of the room, supposedly for X-rays. (This is all spelled out both in the Sibert and O'Neill report, and in their ARRB testimony. See Chapter 28, Best Evidence, or details.)

But during that periodi.e., after the room was cleared (supposedly for X-rays)-- the body (which had been there since around 6:35 PM) was then returned to the big Dallas casket, that casket was brought outside, and then the casket team, which had been running around looking for the ambulance with that casket (again, see my account quoting Barnum's report) suddenly found it, and brought it in at 8 pm. (Again, see their report, for the time).

Again David.... what are Sibert and ONeill doing while this transfer is going on and what is their position regarding the 8pm re-entry of the Casket and body?? they knew JFK was already on the table just after 7:17, right?

Thus, we are dealing here with 3 entries of 2 caskets; and the whole purpose (apparently) of this absurd exercise was to return the body to the Dallas casket in which it began its journey, and conceal the fact --at least in the US Army reports that would emanate from the Joint Casket Team--that Air Force One was carrying an empty coffin and that an intercept had taken place earlier in the day.

Here, again, are the three key times, as documented in separate reports:

6:35 PM: The original arrival of the body, in a shipping casket--an event that occurred prior to the arrival of the naval ambulance, with the Dallas casket, which occurred at 6:55 pm (approx). The time 6:35 is cited in the Boyajian report.

7:17: PM The arrival (at the morgue) of the Dallas casket (which was empty); that time is provided by FBI Agents Sibert and O'Neill, when they were interviewed by WC atty Specter, in March, 1964.

8:00 PM The official delivery of the Dallas casket, now containing the body. That time is cited as the official morgue entry time in the report of the MDW tri-service casket team. (And yes, based on my interviews, one or more of them actually witnessed the body of JFK being taken out of the Dallas casket after that 8 P.M. entry).

See chapter 16 for the story of the casket team; and chapter 28 of Best evidence for how all this was worked out, so that those who were present at the "first entry" (at 6:35 PM) were prevented from seeing the second entry (7:17 PM); and, in some cases, the third entry, too. They were sequestered. Of course, all this was helped along by the fact that some dozen or more lower level people were put under a military order not to talk, subject to court martial if they violated the order. (And those who did become aware of a "second casket" were told it was a "security measure."

On this score, remember these words, which Commander Humes tucked into his WC testimony as protection (imho) against any future legal charges:

QUOTE:

Specter: tell us who else in a general ay was present at the time the autopsy was conducted in addition to you three doctors, please?

Humes: "I must preface by saying it will be somewhat incomplete. My particular interest was on the examination of the president and not of the security measures of the other people who were present." (Citation: 2 WCH 349)

UNQUOTE

Anyway, starting at 8 pm (and specifically, at 8:15 pm) the official autopsy was then underway.

Ive interviewed the entire casket team, and they sure did stay at Bethesda, and at the morgue; and, fyi, they provided the ceremonial escort when JFK's body, now embalmed, left Bethesda and went to the White House, where the coffin was placed in the East Room.

Again, keep in mind the difference between the USMC security detail, headed by Sgt. Boyajian, and the Joint tri-service casket team, headed by Lt. Sam Bird. The former was there to provide morgue security; the latter, for ceremonial purposes.

then why does Paul Miller state the MDW is retained for security when they more than likely do not even have weapons?

In the ARRB Collection, the Joint Casket bearer Team report is MD 163; Sgt. Boyajians report is MD-236.

Put them together, along with the interviews I conducted for chapter 16 (the Decoy Ambulance) plus the accounts of Dennis David (Ch 25) and OConnor (Ch 26) and you will have the full story (akin to a 'bird's eye' view) of what happened at Bethesda on the night of 11/22/63i.e., the 3 entries of 2 caskets.

I have no doubt that any of this was part of the original plan to assassinate Kennedy; but it did happen (i.e., it did unfold in this somewhat chaotic manner) because there was an imperfect execution of that plan. Viewed that way, the assassination was elegant in conception, but bungled in execution.

Viewed that way, Best Evidence was about the "bungled plan"; whereas the focus of Final Charade is much more on what was "supposed to have happened," but did not. (And why).

From whichever perspective it is viewed, the bottom line is that there was a major plot in the assassination of President Kennedy, whose purpose was not just to murder the President, but to alter the body prior to autopsy, so as to falsify the circumstances of his death.

DSL

3/11/11 6 pm

Los Angeles, Ca

I refer back to your book quite often David... what becomes evident to me is the level of duplication across the board... bags, rifles, Oswalds, ambulances, films, brains, autopsies, etc... Just enough reality from one set of circumstances to make the second (or even third) set of circumstances both more realistic and more confusing at the same time.

If you could clear up that FBI knowledge of the Casket re-entry between 7:17 and 8pm and why it was never reported, mentioned or acknowledged I sure would appreciate it...

Btw - Currently reading Pigs on a Leash and it is definitely helping with the right mindset for Zapruder... realizing a splice is an obstruction of justice is really quite the aha moment... add the MATH threads and then Altgens testimony about the relatively short movement of the limo from his photo to the headshot, which I posted, and it does all begin to add up.

My biggest problem comes from understanding how a second film was ever created from the same angle as the Z film so there was material to splice in, i.e. motorcade versus foreground versus background.... unless Z shot in slow motion and the film was then created afterward as you describe.

Thanks again for your input

Sincerely,

DJ

Edited by David Josephs
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I'd like to remain on the question of what the FBI agents experience between 7:17 and 8pm.

According to their info the body gets to the morgue at 7:17 WITH THEIR HELP yet they do not say anything about the body leaving and re-entering at 8pm, do they?

DSL:

6:35 PM: The original arrival of the body, in a shipping casket--an event that occurred prior to the arrival of the naval ambulance, with the Dallas casket, which occurred at 6:55 pm (approx). The time 6:35 is cited in the Boyajian report.

7:17: PM The arrival (at the morgue) of the Dallas casket (which was empty); that time is provided by FBI Agents Sibert and O'Neill, when they were interviewed by WC atty Specter, in March, 1964.

8:00 PM The official “delivery” of the Dallas casket, now containing the body. That time is cited as the official morgue entry time in the report of the MDW tri-service casket team. (And yes, based on my interviews, one or more of them actually witnessed the body of JFK being taken out of the Dallas casket after that 8 P.M. entry).

and

The FBI agents, who did not “lose” the ceremonial casket (that is, they did not "lose" the naval ambulance which contained that casket) brought it the morgue area, were kept out for a few minutes (to prevent them from learning that the body was there, before they were), then entered the morgue, and then witnessed the body being put on the table.

That time—according to their interview with Specter—was 7:17 PM.

So that is when they first “see” the doctor dealing with the body: 7:17 pm. And that is when Dr. Humes stated, in front of the two agents, that it was "apparent" that there had been "surgery of the head area, namely, in the top of the skull."

Anyway, that occurred at just a few minutes past 7:17 PM. Not 8pm.

Then, within minutes of 7:17 pm, they were cleared out of the room, supposedly for X-rays. (This is all spelled out both in the Sibert and O'Neill report, and in their ARRB testimony. See Chapter 28, Best Evidence, for details.)

But during that period—i.e., after the room was cleared (supposedly for X-rays)-- the body (which had been there since around 6:35 PM) was then returned to the big Dallas casket, that casket was brought outside, and then the casket team, which had been running around looking for the ambulance with that casket (again, see my account quoting Barnum's report) suddenly “found” it, and brought it in at 8 pm. (Again, see their report, for the time: i.e., "8 P.M." is the official "morgue entry time," per the MDW report).

So David... the FBI agents simply waited around outside the morgue and did not experience the "back out to the hearse and in with the MDW" around 8pm? and then were let back in to view the rest of the autopsy? How did they miss the ceremonial transfer by the MDW?

thanks

DJ

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