Craig Lamson Posted March 20, 2011 Share Posted March 20, 2011 (edited) Just my opinion at this point yet Hill's ability to reach that limo so quickly suggests it was going much slower than it appears to be in Zapruder. DJ How do you judge speed of the limo in he Zapruder film visually? The best you have for a visual metric is the passing of the background. Problem is photo 101 tells us that the visual blurring of the background is effected more by the actual rate of camera pan than the limo speed. Interestingly, given the way the limo transverses the scene, the camera panning rate play visual tricks. As the limo is filmed near Houston and at the other end near the overpass the actual rate of camera pan is slowed, making the car appear to be going slower than actual speed. Starting from Houston for example the camera panning rare gradually increases until it hits its peak speed right about the 300 frame mark give or take. So even IF the limo were slowing rapidly at this point, the visual clues as to it actual speed...the amount of blur in the background, is being skewed to look faster than reality by the increased rate of camera pan. So in other words, just looking at the film and guessing a the limo speed is a fools errand. Of course please don't take my word for it, go out and try the panning for yourself..... Edited March 20, 2011 by Craig Lamson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted March 20, 2011 Author Share Posted March 20, 2011 (edited) Just my opinion at this point yet Hill's ability to reach that limo so quickly suggests it was going much slower than it appears to be in Zapruder. DJ How do you judge speed of the limo in he Zapruder film visually? The best you have for a visual metric is the passing of the background. Problem is photo 101 tells us that the visual blurring of the background is effected more by the actual rate of camera pan than the limo speed. I am "guessing" at the speed of the limo in relation to the distance Hill has to cover and the time it takes for him to overtake the limo in the 3 films in which we see him do so. The faster Hill runs, the greater the speed difference between him and the limo... conversely, the slower the limo - the faster he arrives... the supposition, the HYPOTHESIS is that frames were removed to hide a limo stop or severe slow down as well as the headshot being some 30 feet west. Makes sense to me that Hill moving from one vehicle to the other during this crucial time is important. Some have siad he had to leave as early as 285... we don't see him till well after that IN ANY FILM... is the slowdown from 285 thru 310 or so, when we finally see Hill? or during his run? Frame 337 is important as its those 24 frames the MATH threads keep coming back to... Is Hill jumping on a fairly stationary limo at 337? This is what I'm trying to prove... Interestingly, given the way the limo transverses the scene, the camera panning rate play visual tricks. As the limo is filmed near Houston and at the other end near the overpass the actual rate of camera pan is slowed, making the car appear to be going slower than actual speed. Starting from Houston for example the camera panning rare gradually increases until it hits its peak speed right about the 300 frame mark give or take. So even IF the limo were slowing rapidly at this point, the visual clues as to it actual speed...the amount of blur in the background, is being skewed to look faster than reality by the increased rate of camera pan. So in other words, just looking at the film and guessing a the limo speed is a fools errand. Guessing at the limo speed by plugging ANY REALISTIC speed into my calculations gives me the time needed for Hill to cover the distance... the number of frames per second equates to a distance at a certain mph regardless of pan rate or vehicle direction... if the limo was traveling 7.8 mph or 11.4feet per sec, in 24 frames or 1.35 seconds at 18.3 fps, we have a total of 15 feet... plus the 12-14 feet between Hill and the limo and hill must cover a total of 27-29 feet - to do this he must be running at 21+ mph DURING that period.... only the fastest sprinters in the world can do this, yet a SS agent in great shape and at his age... the time difference would not be much... Hill could easily sustain 16-18mph for those 2 seconds... Yet as we can see, if the limo slows to about 5mph the transition works almost perfectly in terms of times, frames and speed.. so either the limo slowed quickly to much less than already agreed upon, or some frames have been removed to make it appear the limo and QM were traveling faster than they were... 18.3 fps 5.1 mph - estimated limo speed 26928 feet per hour 448.8 fpminute 7.5 fpsecond 313 hill running full speed 337 hill touches back of limo 24 diff in frames 1.31 seconds for diff in frames 9.81 distance at 5.1 mph 13.00 distance from Hill to Limo at frame 313 22.81 Total distance to cover Hill's speed 17 11.9 mph differential 62832 feet per hour 89760 1047.2 fpminute 1496 17.5 fpsecond 24.9 1.31 seconds needed to overtake limo The thing about this Craig, is that it only takes very slight changes in these speeds to accound for frames to have been tampered with... I am not saying there is proof here... just that with your scrutiny, if there is something to be discovered during this crutial sequence of frames - you can either help explain it, or help us understand how it might have been accomplished. When so many witnesses experience an event - the limo stopping or slowing severely - and it's NOT on the films... "something" is up... can we at least agree there? and from what I've been reading, the sheer degredation of quality of the images you and I get to examine is beyond pitiful... that in itself is the cause of so much disagrement. Reading the accounts of those who have at least seen the original "forgeries" or original "realities" should be our BEST EVIDENCE until one can look for oneself... no? I would think you, above all others, YOU would be outraged at splices in the extant versions of the z film (157, 207 at least), and in the extant version of the Muchmore and Nix films. The unreality of the geometry we see in the full-flush left images in the Z film and the strageness of anomolies in the films just before these splices occur, in every case... see what occurs prior to each "splice" in the stabilized Zfilm... but just flush left, intersproket... Of course please don't take my word for it, go out and try the panning for yourself..... I take your word Craig... you got the whole panning thing down, I'm sure. So if you had to remove a limo stop knowing what you know about Oxberry printers etc... how would you do it, and how would that compare to what a Hollywood special effects technician of that era could do? Edited March 20, 2011 by David Josephs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Lamson Posted March 20, 2011 Share Posted March 20, 2011 (edited) Just my opinion at this point yet Hill's ability to reach that limo so quickly suggests it was going much slower than it appears to be in Zapruder. DJ How do you judge speed of the limo in he Zapruder film visually? The best you have for a visual metric is the passing of the background. Problem is photo 101 tells us that the visual blurring of the background is effected more by the actual rate of camera pan than the limo speed. I am "guessing" at the speed of the limo in relation to the distance Hill has to cover and the time it takes for him to overtake the limo in the 3 films in which we see him do so. The faster Hill runs, the greater the speed difference between him and the limo... conversely, the slower the limo - the faster he arrives... the supposition, the HYPOTHESIS is that frames were removed to hide a limo stop or severe slow down as well as the headshot being some 30 feet west. Makes sense to me that Hill moving from one vehicle to the other during this crucial time is important. Some have siad he had to leave as early as 285... we don't see him till well after that IN ANY FILM... is the slowdown from 285 thru 310 or so, when we finally see Hill? or during his run? Frame 337 is important as its those 24 frames the MATH threads keep coming back to... Is Hill jumping on a fairly stationary limo at 337? This is what I'm trying to prove... Interestingly, given the way the limo transverses the scene, the camera panning rate play visual tricks. As the limo is filmed near Houston and at the other end near the overpass the actual rate of camera pan is slowed, making the car appear to be going slower than actual speed. Starting from Houston for example the camera panning rare gradually increases until it hits its peak speed right about the 300 frame mark give or take. So even IF the limo were slowing rapidly at this point, the visual clues as to it actual speed...the amount of blur in the background, is being skewed to look faster than reality by the increased rate of camera pan. So in other words, just looking at the film and guessing a the limo speed is a fools errand. Guessing at the limo speed by plugging ANY REALISTIC speed into my calculations gives me the time needed for Hill to cover the distance... the number of frames per second equates to a distance at a certain mph regardless of pan rate or vehicle direction... if the limo was traveling 7.8 mph or 11.4feet per sec, in 24 frames or 1.35 seconds at 18.3 fps, we have a total of 15 feet... plus the 12-14 feet between Hill and the limo and hill must cover a total of 27-29 feet - to do this he must be running at 21+ mph DURING that period.... only the fastest sprinters in the world can do this, yet a SS agent in great shape and at his age... the time difference would not be much... Hill could easily sustain 16-18mph for those 2 seconds... Yet as we can see, if the limo slows to about 5mph the transition works almost perfectly in terms of times, frames and speed.. so either the limo slowed quickly to much less than already agreed upon, or some frames have been removed to make it appear the limo and QM were traveling faster than they were... 18.3 fps 5.1 mph - estimated limo speed 26928 feet per hour 448.8 fpminute 7.5 fpsecond 313 hill running full speed 337 hill touches back of limo 24 diff in frames 1.31 seconds for diff in frames 9.81 distance at 5.1 mph 13.00 distance from Hill to Limo at frame 313 22.81 Total distance to cover Hill's speed 17 11.9 mph differential 62832 feet per hour 89760 1047.2 fpminute 1496 17.5 fpsecond 24.9 1.31 seconds needed to overtake limo The thing about this Craig, is that it only takes very slight changes in these speeds to accound for frames to have been tampered with... I am not saying there is proof here... just that with your scrutiny, if there is something to be discovered during this crutial sequence of frames - you can either help explain it, or help us understand how it might have been accomplished. When so many witnesses experience an event - the limo stopping or slowing severely - and it's NOT on the films... "something" is up... can we at least agree there? and from what I've been reading, the sheer degredation of quality of the images you and I get to examine is beyond pitiful... that in itself is the cause of so much disagrement. Reading the accounts of those who have at least seen the original "forgeries" or original "realities" should be our BEST EVIDENCE until one can look for oneself... no? I would think you, above all others, YOU would be outraged at splices in the extant versions of the z film (157, 207 at least), and in the extant version of the Muchmore and Nix films. The unreality of the geometry we see in the full-flush left images in the Z film and the strageness of anomolies in the films just before these splices occur, in every case... see what occurs prior to each "splice" in the stabilized Zfilm... but just flush left, intersproket... Of course please don't take my word for it, go out and try the panning for yourself..... I take your word Craig... you got the whole panning thing down, I'm sure. So if you had to remove a limo stop knowing what you know about Oxberry printers etc... how would you do it, and how would that compare to what a Hollywood special effects technician of that era could do? When people tend to run off on a tangent in their posts it is mostly useless to attempt to listen to anything he might have to say. It renders this "information" such as it is nearly useless. So dave, you claim you love maths so much, instead of GUESSING about anything or just "plugging in" stuff, why don't you CALCULATE it. Full flush left? Sheesh that dog got killed long ago. Amomolies? Oh please. Splices? Amazing that happens at places where repeated playback might happen. Sorry dave like all the rest you are just one more who does not have a clue. BTW? There is a small problems with just "removing a few frames" ... ghost images. Chew on that one for awhile, and then join the rest of the ztoon crown dave. Edited March 21, 2011 by Craig Lamson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack White Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 I was merely pointing out that Hill wasn't stationary when he began his attempt to catch up with JFK's car. Correct. I was not criticizing...just pointing out the obvious. I was just pointing out that with both cars and Hill moving at the same speed, the movement of the QM does not make Hill move any faster. It is as if all three were standing still and he steps off. Their relative speeds remain ZERO. If all three are moving at 8 MPH when he steps off, their relative speeds remain the same...8 MPH. Hill DOES NOT SPEED UP IN RELATION TO THE CARS JUST BY STEPPING OFF. Only when he starts running does he gain speed faster than the cars. Get it? Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack White Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 (edited) Just my opinion at this point yet Hill's ability to reach that limo so quickly suggests it was going much slower than it appears to be in Zapruder. DJ How do you judge speed of the limo in he Zapruder film visually? The best you have for a visual metric is the passing of the background. Problem is photo 101 tells us that the visual blurring of the background is effected more by the actual rate of camera pan than the limo speed. Interestingly, given the way the limo transverses the scene, the camera panning rate play visual tricks. As the limo is filmed near Houston and at the other end near the overpass the actual rate of camera pan is slowed, making the car appear to be going slower than actual speed. Starting from Houston for example the camera panning rare gradually increases until it hits its peak speed right about the 300 frame mark give or take. So even IF the limo were slowing rapidly at this point, the visual clues as to it actual speed...the amount of blur in the background, is being skewed to look faster than reality by the increased rate of camera pan. So in other words, just looking at the film and guessing a the limo speed is a fools errand. Of course please don't take my word for it, go out and try the panning for yourself..... False. There are identifiable and measurable landmarks in many of the frames. Taking measurements and counting frames produces speeds. The most obvious landmarks are the series of painted YELLOW strips on the south curb. Jack Edited March 21, 2011 by Jack White Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Lamson Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 (edited) Just my opinion at this point yet Hill's ability to reach that limo so quickly suggests it was going much slower than it appears to be in Zapruder. DJ How do you judge speed of the limo in he Zapruder film visually? The best you have for a visual metric is the passing of the background. Problem is photo 101 tells us that the visual blurring of the background is effected more by the actual rate of camera pan than the limo speed. Interestingly, given the way the limo transverses the scene, the camera panning rate play visual tricks. As the limo is filmed near Houston and at the other end near the overpass the actual rate of camera pan is slowed, making the car appear to be going slower than actual speed. Starting from Houston for example the camera panning rare gradually increases until it hits its peak speed right about the 300 frame mark give or take. So even IF the limo were slowing rapidly at this point, the visual clues as to it actual speed...the amount of blur in the background, is being skewed to look faster than reality by the increased rate of camera pan. So in other words, just looking at the film and guessing a the limo speed is a fools errand. Of course please don't take my word for it, go out and try the panning for yourself..... False. There are identifiable and measurable landmarks in many of the frames. Taking measurements and counting frames produces speeds. The most obvious landmarks are the series of painted YELLOW strips on the south curb. Jack (bold and size above mine) You are correct that there are some landmarks available for calculations but were NOT discussing calculation but rather the simple viewing the film and looking for visual clues about the limo speed. Please play again some other time. Edited March 21, 2011 by Craig Lamson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack White Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 What a NON-RESPONSE! I point out visual clues as to the limo speed, and Mr. Light refuses to admit he is wrong. Incredible! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Lamson Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 What a NON-RESPONSE! I point out visual clues as to the limo speed, and Mr. Light refuses to admit he is wrong. Incredible! No, I was happy to admit are there are SOME lamdmarks. The ones you show are over 40 feet and 50 frames apart. Not very helpful for viewing the film and trying to make speed judgements. And of course that was the entire point of my post. You simply can't read. And maybe you might want to consider refraining for chastising anyone over admissions of error. Your posts over on the PC forum about the rover are a perfect example of your failure to do just that. And of course there is this CLASSIC Jack White blunder to which he has still not admitted error after all of these years... http://www.craiglamson.com/apollo.htm Thanks for the grins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Kingsbury Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 What a NON-RESPONSE! I point out visual clues as to the limo speed, and Mr. Light refuses to admit he is wrong. Incredible! No, I was happy to admit are there are SOME lamdmarks. The ones you show are over 40 feet and 50 frames apart. Not very helpful for viewing the film and trying to make speed judgements. And of course that was the entire point of my post. You simply can't read. And maybe you might want to consider refraining for chastising anyone over admissions of error. Your posts over on the PC forum about the rover are a perfect example of your failure to do just that. And of course there is this CLASSIC Jack White blunder to which he has still not admitted error after all of these years... http://www.craiglamson.com/apollo.htm Thanks for the grins. Brilliant Mr lamson I do believe you got it 40 foot 50 frames pukka dude!. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Lamson Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 [ Brilliant Mr lamson I do believe you got it 40 foot 50 frames pukka dude!. Care to refute it or are you just blowing the usual ct smoke? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted March 22, 2011 Author Share Posted March 22, 2011 (edited) Just my opinion at this point yet Hill's ability to reach that limo so quickly suggests it was going much slower than it appears to be in Zapruder. DJ How do you judge speed of the limo in he Zapruder film visually? The best you have for a visual metric is the passing of the background. Problem is photo 101 tells us that the visual blurring of the background is effected more by the actual rate of camera pan than the limo speed. I am "guessing" at the speed of the limo in relation to the distance Hill has to cover and the time it takes for him to overtake the limo in the 3 films in which we see him do so. The faster Hill runs, the greater the speed difference between him and the limo... conversely, the slower the limo - the faster he arrives... the supposition, the HYPOTHESIS is that frames were removed to hide a limo stop or severe slow down as well as the headshot being some 30 feet west. Makes sense to me that Hill moving from one vehicle to the other during this crucial time is important. Some have siad he had to leave as early as 285... we don't see him till well after that IN ANY FILM... is the slowdown from 285 thru 310 or so, when we finally see Hill? or during his run? Frame 337 is important as its those 24 frames the MATH threads keep coming back to... Is Hill jumping on a fairly stationary limo at 337? This is what I'm trying to prove... Interestingly, given the way the limo transverses the scene, the camera panning rate play visual tricks. As the limo is filmed near Houston and at the other end near the overpass the actual rate of camera pan is slowed, making the car appear to be going slower than actual speed. Starting from Houston for example the camera panning rare gradually increases until it hits its peak speed right about the 300 frame mark give or take. So even IF the limo were slowing rapidly at this point, the visual clues as to it actual speed...the amount of blur in the background, is being skewed to look faster than reality by the increased rate of camera pan. So in other words, just looking at the film and guessing a the limo speed is a fools errand. Guessing at the limo speed by plugging ANY REALISTIC speed into my calculations gives me the time needed for Hill to cover the distance... the number of frames per second equates to a distance at a certain mph regardless of pan rate or vehicle direction... if the limo was traveling 7.8 mph or 11.4feet per sec, in 24 frames or 1.35 seconds at 18.3 fps, we have a total of 15 feet... plus the 12-14 feet between Hill and the limo and hill must cover a total of 27-29 feet - to do this he must be running at 21+ mph DURING that period.... only the fastest sprinters in the world can do this, yet a SS agent in great shape and at his age... the time difference would not be much... Hill could easily sustain 16-18mph for those 2 seconds... Yet as we can see, if the limo slows to about 5mph the transition works almost perfectly in terms of times, frames and speed.. so either the limo slowed quickly to much less than already agreed upon, or some frames have been removed to make it appear the limo and QM were traveling faster than they were... 18.3 fps 5.1 mph - estimated limo speed 26928 feet per hour 448.8 fpminute 7.5 fpsecond 313 hill running full speed 337 hill touches back of limo 24 diff in frames 1.31 seconds for diff in frames 9.81 distance at 5.1 mph 13.00 distance from Hill to Limo at frame 313 22.81 Total distance to cover Hill's speed 17 11.9 mph differential 62832 feet per hour 89760 1047.2 fpminute 1496 17.5 fpsecond 24.9 1.31 seconds needed to overtake limo The thing about this Craig, is that it only takes very slight changes in these speeds to accound for frames to have been tampered with... I am not saying there is proof here... just that with your scrutiny, if there is something to be discovered during this crutial sequence of frames - you can either help explain it, or help us understand how it might have been accomplished. When so many witnesses experience an event - the limo stopping or slowing severely - and it's NOT on the films... "something" is up... can we at least agree there? and from what I've been reading, the sheer degredation of quality of the images you and I get to examine is beyond pitiful... that in itself is the cause of so much disagrement. Reading the accounts of those who have at least seen the original "forgeries" or original "realities" should be our BEST EVIDENCE until one can look for oneself... no? I would think you, above all others, YOU would be outraged at splices in the extant versions of the z film (157, 207 at least), and in the extant version of the Muchmore and Nix films. The unreality of the geometry we see in the full-flush left images in the Z film and the strageness of anomolies in the films just before these splices occur, in every case... see what occurs prior to each "splice" in the stabilized Zfilm... but just flush left, intersproket... Of course please don't take my word for it, go out and try the panning for yourself..... I take your word Craig... you got the whole panning thing down, I'm sure. So if you had to remove a limo stop knowing what you know about Oxberry printers etc... how would you do it, and how would that compare to what a Hollywood special effects technician of that era could do? When people tend to run off on a tangent in their posts it is mostly useless to attempt to listen to anything he might have to say. It renders this "information" such as it is nearly useless. So dave, you claim you love maths so much, instead of GUESSING about anything or just "plugging in" stuff, why don't you CALCULATE it. Full flush left? Sheesh that dog got killed long ago. Amomolies? Oh please. Splices? Amazing that happens at places where repeated playback might happen. Sorry dave like all the rest you are just one more who does not have a clue. BTW? There is a small problems with just "removing a few frames" ... ghost images. Chew on that one for awhile, and then join the rest of the ztoon crown dave. Then show us how you can CALCULATE the speed Craig... Frame 313 to 337 takes 24 frames at 18.3 fps or 1.311 seconds based on those # of frames and that agreed upon frame-rate... What is the DISTANCE in feet between 313 and 337 and how do you determine this? If you take the word of the WC related to the Zfilm, the limo was traveling at 11.2 mph while others claim it had slowed to less than 8mph in and around this time. At 11.2 mph for 1.311 seconds the limo travels 21.5 feet between 313 and 337 If, on the other hand, the limo was traveling at 8 mph, the distance between 313 and 337 is 15.4 feet... So Craig, is the distance from point A to point B: 21.5 or 15.4 feet? Please show us... CALCULATE the speed of the limo Edited March 22, 2011 by David Josephs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Lamson Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 [ Then show us how you can CALCULATE the speed Craig... Frame 313 to 337 takes 24 frames at 18.3 fps or 1.311 seconds based on those # of frames and that agreed upon frame-rate... What is the DISTANCE in feet between 313 and 337 and how do you determine this? If you take the word of the WC related to the Zfilm, the limo was traveling at 11.2 mph while others claim it had slowed to less than 8mph in and around this time. At 11.2 mph for 1.311 seconds the limo travels 21.5 feet between 313 and 337 If, on the other hand, the limo was traveling at 8 mph, the distance between 313 and 337 is 15.4 feet... So Craig, is the distance from point A to point B: 21.5 or 15.4 feet? Please show us... CALCULATE the speed of the limo Lets review shall we... dAVE waves his hands wildly, "plugging" away and then proclaims things don't add up BECAUSE he does not think he "sees" the speed of the limo in the Zapruder film. I point out the weakness of his visual references in the Z film and that the "appearance" of speed is skewed by the increasing and decreasing rates of pan as the lime transverses the z field of view. I also suggest that dAVE, might what to consider doing some calculations instead waving his hands since he claims math is one of his strengths. True to form dAVE says....NO...YOU! Is that your admission dAVE, that you CAN'T calculate the speed? Instead you now want ME to do the work YOU should be doing? WHY? I've no real interest in this handwaving exercise. I simply gave a photographic point of reference. Freaking amazing dAVE. Besides I suck at math.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas H. Purvis Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 How does Clint Hill catch the limo? At 9.8mph the limo travels 14.4 feet per sec Hill is off at 313 and reaches the limo at 337 = 24 frames 24 frames / 18.3 fps = 1.3 seconds for Hill to reach limo Limo travels 18.85 feet at 9.8 mph in 1.3 seconds Hill is approx 12 feet from limo at 313 which equates to 6 feet from the running board to the front of the Queen Mary plus the 6 feet or so from the QM to the limo... Total run of 30.85 (18.85 + 12) feet to be covered in 1.3 seconds requires Hill to sprint at over 25mph if limo travels at 9.8mph If Hill runs the expected average speed of 11.2 mph the limo must be going 2.5 mph for him to reach it in the 1.3 seconds we see. 18.3 fps 9.8 mph 51744 feet per hour 862.4 fpminute 14.4 fpsecond 313 hill off 337 hill on 24 diff 1.3 seconds for 24 frames 18.85 distance at 9.8 mph 12.00 distance from Hill to Limo at 313 30.85 Total distance to cover 25 Hill's speed 15.2 mph differential 80256 feet per hour 1337.6 fpminute 22.3 fpsecond 1.38 seconds needed to overtake limo If the limo was traveling at 5mph Hill need only run at 16mph to reach the limo... which for a short sprint is possible... it would also result in Hill running at 11mph FASTER than the limo In the Muchmore collage... from z323 to z333 – about 1/2 second – Hill gets from the front of the QM to the rear of the limo... IN WHAT APPEARS AS A SINGLE STEP – Step at 318 - left foot Step at 323 - right foot By 326 he is accelerating away from SS car and towards limo Step at 328 - left foot lands on street – by 329 left foot is planted and right foot is moving forward Between 326 and 329 it appears as if the entire scene in the street has moved west and between 326 and 337 Hill’s left foot has moved considerably down the street – it does not appear as if Muchmore changes her position other than panning left. Step at 333 SHOULD be right foot on the ground yet left foot still on street but seems to have moved from being in front of Jean Hill to being WEST of Moorman Step at 337 is right foot ONTO LIMO – notice how far to the west his left foot has moved... from landing in front of Jean to being noticeably west of Moorman If the limo stopped, then the QM and some of the closer following vehicles would also have had to stop... especially the QM or else it would have hit the limo. After this analysis I feel as if the limo slowed down severely right before 313. The jerkiness of the Nix film thru this sequence is almost absurd and there are definitely frames missing. With many of the other vehicles “stopping” due to the severe slowdown of the limo, the assumption could be easily made that the limo “stopped momentarily” when in reality it was simply inching along. By watching the stabilized Zfilm it is obvious the limo slows considerably just before 310 as we see the motorcycles ride up beside the limo... given the closeness of the QM and cycle escort, there is no reason to assume the QM or cycles would change speeds significantly during the motorcade... especially BOTH cycles as wee see in the Zfilm just before 313. So maybe one of our resident experts can explain how this happens and is accomplished on film as well as it jiving with Altgens testimony that from z255 to z313 the limo traveled from a max of 40 feet away to 15 feet away... or moving 25 feet in 58 frames... the limo either has to be going 5mph that entire time or the foreground and background do not match the street scene as we see it in Zapruder. Controversial Issues in History > JFK Assassination Debate > Clint Hill Dismounts From Limo Then! One just may come to understand the importance and significance of the testimony of the "Running/Jumping" man, and the correlation of this testimony with the Nix and the Zapruder film. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Kingsbury Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 [ Brilliant Mr lamson I do believe you got it 40 foot 50 frames pukka dude!. Care to refute it or are you just blowing the usual ct smoke? Not at all Mr Lamson sir I was merely pointing out that the difference between What we are looking at and when it occurred is about 40 feet 50 frames I thought you had some eureka moment .I was mistaken and will try to use up less of your valuable Oxygen in the future. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted March 22, 2011 Author Share Posted March 22, 2011 [ Then show us how you can CALCULATE the speed Craig... Frame 313 to 337 takes 24 frames at 18.3 fps or 1.311 seconds based on those # of frames and that agreed upon frame-rate... What is the DISTANCE in feet between 313 and 337 and how do you determine this? If you take the word of the WC related to the Zfilm, the limo was traveling at 11.2 mph while others claim it had slowed to less than 8mph in and around this time. At 11.2 mph for 1.311 seconds the limo travels 21.5 feet between 313 and 337 If, on the other hand, the limo was traveling at 8 mph, the distance between 313 and 337 is 15.4 feet... So Craig, is the distance from point A to point B: 21.5 or 15.4 feet? Please show us... CALCULATE the speed of the limo Lets review shall we... dAVE waves his hands wildly, "plugging" away and then proclaims things don't add up BECAUSE he does not think he "sees" the speed of the limo in the Zapruder film. I point out the weakness of his visual references in the Z film and that the "appearance" of speed is skewed by the increasing and decreasing rates of pan as the lime transverses the z field of view. I also suggest that dAVE, might what to consider doing some calculations instead waving his hands since he claims math is one of his strengths. True to form dAVE says....NO...YOU! Is that your admission dAVE, that you CAN'T calculate the speed? Instead you now want ME to do the work YOU should be doing? WHY? I've no real interest in this handwaving exercise. I simply gave a photographic point of reference. Freaking amazing dAVE. Besides I suck at math.... Craig, All your BS about panning and your “visual references” is just that - BS... the “appearance of speed”?? You’ve lost your mind. A car traveling at 10 mph will cover X amount of ground in X amount of time whether it's filmed or not, whether it is going at the camera, at an angle, or away from the camera... X number of frames at an agreed upon frame rate in X amount of time results in a speed... if the last car in the motorcade – which we cannot see – was going 10mph I can tell you the distance in the amount of time based on the number of frames being analyzed... from 313 to 337, 1.31 seconds at 10mph THAT car traveled 19.2 feet - even you should understand that. So you tell me Craig... from 300 to 337 is 37 frames at 18.3 fps equals 2.022 seconds. CALCULATE how fast is the limo going - show us how the great and might Lamson detemines DISTANCE How about an easier one... the limo leaves Love Field and travels for 11 seconds (or what would be 201 frames at 18.3fps) Please show us how you would CALCULATE the limo's speed Now a little tougher one - you up to it? From frame 100 to 200 is 100 frames at 18.3fps is 5.464 seconds There is a visible splice at 132 There is a visible splice at 154 How fast was the limo traveling from frame 100 to frame 200? I've already explained why it can't be done... but you know better - so show us. Put up or shut up already Craig... Use a calculator if you can't do the math... in fact don't even do the math - just explain how you would even begin to CALCULATE an answer given the available information... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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