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I've read that the HSCA's photographic experts concluded that, based on their analysis of the Dillard and Powell photos, there was an APPARENT rearranging of boxes (in the so-called sniper's nest) within two minutes after the last shot was fired at President Kennedy.

I do think that the conspirators put together the "sniper's next" and planted the three casings there to implicate Oswald, but that they did all this before the shooting started.

I can't see any advantages to the conspirators in moving the boxes right after the "hit". All I can see are disadvantages. What about you?

Thanks,

--Thomas

Edited by Thomas Graves
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I've read that the HSCA's photographic experts concluded that, based on their analysis of the Dillard and Powell photos, there was an APPARENT rearranging of boxes (in the so-called sniper's nest) within two minutes after the last shot was fired at President Kennedy.

I do think that the conspirators put together the "sniper's next" and planted the three casings there to implicate Oswald, but that they did all this before the shooting started.

I can't see any advantages to the conspirators in moving the boxes right after the "hit". All I can see are disadvantages. What about you?

Thanks,

--Thomas

I don't know why, but whoever was in that window moved the boxes around after the assassination, as depicted in the comparison of the Dillard/Powell photos and the statement by Ms. Moneyham, a court clerk who viewed the assassin's window from the courthouse across the street and saw the pants of a man in the window four to five minutes after the assassination. So whoever it was, it wasn't Oswald. And they weren't in any big hurry to get out of there.

BK

Edited by William Kelly
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Thomas,

Bonnie Ray Williams is on record as saying it was the workcrew who were laying the new floor that arranged the boxes in that manner and that configuration. WCH III, p.166. It was more than likely built as a smokers den for the likes of Charles Givens during breaks. Hence the cigarette package being found there and ignored because Oswald didn't smoke.

That being the case it becomes a big coincidence that it then just happened to become a "snipers nest" during the assassination.

I always come back to a intuitive stance on this matter; the assassination, IMO, could not have happened the way that it ultimately happened without some sort of coordinated effort and plan taking place inside the TSBD. There is something dodgy with a core group of the employees, including Roy Truly, Billy Lovelady, William Shelley and Jack Dougherty. And BWF.

Whoever it was that moved those boxes around had to have worked in the building if you want my opinion.

Lee

I have thought about the 3D chess game in the TSBD before and after the shooting and read and re-read testimonies and affadavits and I know there is something amiss Jack Dougherty for example no pictures,no history I even contacted his old Alumni for news of re-unions past but to no avail I cant get past his military time at an airbase in Indiana.

Perhaps others here have had more luck.Danny Arce any relative of Remigio Arce who was mixed up in Op 40?.

Givens double trip to the 6th and his APB at 1.45 ?.

Soo many questions so little time.

All the best

Ian

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Thomas,

Bonnie Ray Williams is on record as saying it was the workcrew who were laying the new floor that arranged the boxes in that manner and that configuration. WCH III, p.166. It was more than likely built as a smokers den for the likes of Charles Givens during breaks. Hence the cigarette package being found there and ignored because Oswald didn't smoke.

That being the case it becomes a big coincidence that it then just happened to become a "snipers nest" during the assassination.

I always come back to a intuitive stance on this matter; the assassination, IMO, could not have happened the way that it ultimately happened without some sort of coordinated effort and plan taking place inside the TSBD. There is something dodgy with a core group of the employees, including Roy Truly, Billy Lovelady, William Shelley and Jack Dougherty. And BWF.

Whoever it was that moved those boxes around had to have worked in the building if you want my opinion.

Lee

I have thought about the 3D chess game in the TSBD before and after the shooting and read and re-read testimonies and affadavits and I know there is something amiss Jack Dougherty for example no pictures,no history I even contacted his old Alumni for news of re-unions past but to no avail I cant get past his military time at an airbase in Indiana.

Perhaps others here have had more luck.Danny Arce any relative of Remigio Arce who was mixed up in Op 40?.

Givens double trip to the 6th and his APB at 1.45 ?.

Soo many questions so little time.

All the best

Ian

Hi Ian

There is one picture of Jack Dougherty from what I remember. I won't be on my PC for a few days so wonder of the likes of Bernice has access to it?

Not to derail Thomas' thread too much but the fact that the elevators are both locked down on the 5th floor when Truly and Baker are looking up from the 1st floor and when they get up to the 5th one of the elevators has descended leaving only one is curious enough. To have Williams, Jarman and Norman who were "hiding" for some reason on the 5th and not notice anyone get into it is even stranger. Add to this the fact that when Truly and Baker get to the 5th they jump in the elevator that is available and then conveniently bypass the 6th floor because they then go straight on up to the 7th is an eyebrow raiser for me.

Everything that happened seems to have had a degree of foresight built into it.

Lee

Lee

Bakers first report indicates a man in a tan jacket walking away from Him or the stairs somewhere on the fourth floor

If not staff then who?.Do we need to see if any of the workers had a tan jacket?.

Ian

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Guest Tom Scully

Thomas,

Bonnie Ray Williams is on record as saying it was the workcrew who were laying the new floor that arranged the boxes in that manner and that configuration. WCH III, p.166. It was more than likely built as a smokers den for the likes of Charles Givens during breaks. Hence the cigarette package being found there and ignored because Oswald didn't smoke.

That being the case it becomes a big coincidence that it then just happened to become a "snipers nest" during the assassination.

I always come back to a intuitive stance on this matter; the assassination, IMO, could not have happened the way that it ultimately happened without some sort of coordinated effort and plan taking place inside the TSBD. There is something dodgy with a core group of the employees, including Roy Truly, Billy Lovelady, William Shelley and Jack Dougherty. And BWF.

Whoever it was that moved those boxes around had to have worked in the building if you want my opinion.

Lee

I have thought about the 3D chess game in the TSBD before and after the shooting and read and re-read testimonies and affadavits and I know there is something amiss Jack Dougherty for example no pictures,no history I even contacted his old Alumni for news of re-unions past but to no avail I cant get past his military time at an airbase in Indiana.

Perhaps others here have had more luck.Danny Arce any relative of Remigio Arce who was mixed up in Op 40?.

Givens double trip to the 6th and his APB at 1.45 ?.

Soo many questions so little time.

All the best

Ian

IMO, the initial portion of Dougherty's recorded WC testimony is so riddled with inaccuracies and inconsistencies, it can be regarded as incoherent, and the WC questioning incompetent because of the lack of challenges to the contradictory/nonsensical details in the witness's responses.:

http://ssdi.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/ssdi.cgi

DOUGHERTY, JACK E 12 Aug 1923 29 Dec 1994 71 75232 (Dallas, Dallas, TX)

12 August, 1923, D.O.B. matches info in this Dougherty statement to the FBI.:

http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/html/WH_Vol19_0318b.htm

Does anyone have a photograph of Jack Edwin Dougherty?

Testimony Of Jack Edwin Dougherty

The testimony of Jack Edwin Dougherty was taken at 10:50 a.m., on April 8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL - Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before the Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God

Mr. DOUGHERTY - I do.

Mr. BALL - Will you state your name and address for the record?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Jack Edwin Dougherty.

Mr. BALL - And your address?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - 1827 South Marsalis.

Mr. BALL - How old are you?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Forty.

This witness had to be born between 9 April, 1923, and 8 April, 1924.

Mr. BALL - Where were you born?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Here in Dallas.

Mr. BALL - Where did you go to school?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Sunset High School.

Mr. BALL - You went through Sunset High School?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - What year did you get out of high school? About?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Oh, 1937.

Mr. BALL - 1937?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes.

This witness had to have gotten out of high school by the age of 14.

Mr. BALL - What kind of work did you do after that?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, of course, a year or so, you might say--just work in grocery stores until I was 19 and volunteered for the Armed Services in October--October 24, 1942.

This witness accounts for only one year of his time, between 1937 and 1942, but he was 19 years old in 1942, if he was 40 years of age in April, 1964. Again, he seems to have gotten out of high school at age 14.

Mr. BALL - How long were you in the service?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - 2 years, 1 month, 17 days, to be exact.

Mr. BALL - And you were discharged from the Service, then, after the War, was it?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes, sir.

This witness claims to have been discharged from military service about December, 1944. This seems odd, as war was still raging in Europe, the Battle of the Bulge was impending, and the ground war against Japan was just ramping up.

Mr. BALL - What did you do during the service---during your period in the service?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, you might say just about a little bit of everything, from guard duty to---

Mr. BALL - Did you have any active service?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, no--I volunteered for active service, but they said you couldn't very well volunteer--you have to be drafted, so they said, they told me at the time.

Huh? It was not permitted to volunteer for active duty in the military, in the fall of 1942?

Mr. BALL - Did you ever leave the United States during the War?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Oh, yes.

This witness proceeds to directly contradict his affirmative answer.

Mr. BALL - Where did you go?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I was stationed, oh, for about a year up in Indiana up there---Seymour, Ind.

Mr. BALL - Then where did you go from there in the service?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I stayed there until I got discharged.

Mr. BALL - You didn't ever go outside the country to Europe?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Oh, no.

Mr. BALL - Or to the South Seas?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - No.

Mr. BALL - You stayed in this country all the time?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes.

Mr. BALL - Now, did you ever have any difficulty with your speech?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - No.

Mr. BALL - You never had any?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - No.

Mr. BALL - Did you ever have any difficulty in the Army with any medical treatment or anything of that sort?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - No.

Mr. BALL - None at all?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - No.

Mr. BALL - What did you do after you got out of the Army?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, jobs were pretty scarce about the time I got out of the service, so I just went from place to place and applied and put my application in, so I started over here at the Texas School Book Depository and put my application in there and I got it through the Suburban Employment Agency, and I been working there ever since.

Mr. BALL - And that was when--in 1940, was it, you started to work at the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - September 17, 1940.

This witness appears to have declared a specific date of employment at TSBD, but almost immediately provides another date, 12 years in the future.

Mr. BALL - 1940 what?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Let's see, I have been with them 11 years--that would be---

Mr. BALL - That would be 1952, wouldn't it?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes--that's 1952.

Mr. BALL - 1952?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes; that's right, to be exact.

This witness is answering a question put to him in April, 1964. How could any date in the year 1952, be "exactly" 11 years later?

Mr. BALL - What did you do between the time you got out of the service and 1952?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I didn't do anything to be frank with you.

Mr. BALL - You didn't?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - No.

Mr. BALL - You didn't work?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Oh, no.

Mr. BALL - You stayed at home?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - No, sir.

This witness did not work, did not stay home, but admitted to not working for a period of nearly 8 years while continuing to live with his parents. However, the witness denied that he stayed home. The WC attorney did not ask the witness where he went or what he did for nearly 8 years, even after the witness denied that he stayed at home.

Mr. BALL - Did you live with your father and mother?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes.

Mr. BALL - Have you ever been married?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - No.

Mr. BALL - And you still live with your father and mother?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes.

Mr. BALL - Now, what kind of work have you been doing at the Texas School Book Depository in the last few years?...

Is this Sunset High School member of the 1941 sophomore class, our Jack Dougherty? Did he actually enter the school in Sept., 1937 and fall two class years behind, by the spring of 1941?

5548347890_301dba258e_b.jpg

Edit: Jack Dougherty is listed in the 1939 Sunset High School yearbook as a member of the class of 1942, the freshman class. His name does not appear in the 1938 yearbook freshman class.

Dougherty appears to be an incompetent, unreliable witness, questioned by an incompetent or disinterested WC staff.

Edited by Tom Scully
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Thanks, Tom- great post!

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Thomas,

Bonnie Ray Williams is on record as saying it was the workcrew who were laying the new floor that arranged the boxes in that manner and that configuration. WCH III, p.166. It was more than likely built as a smokers den for the likes of Charles Givens during breaks. Hence the cigarette package being found there and ignored because Oswald didn't smoke.

That being the case it becomes a big coincidence that it then just happened to become a "snipers nest" during the assassination.

I always come back to a intuitive stance on this matter; the assassination, IMO, could not have happened the way that it ultimately happened without some sort of coordinated effort and plan taking place inside the TSBD. There is something dodgy with a core group of the employees, including Roy Truly, Billy Lovelady, William Shelley and Jack Dougherty. And BWF.

Whoever it was that moved those boxes around had to have worked in the building if you want my opinion.

Lee

I have thought about the 3D chess game in the TSBD before and after the shooting and read and re-read testimonies and affadavits and I know there is something amiss Jack Dougherty for example no pictures,no history I even contacted his old Alumni for news of re-unions past but to no avail I cant get past his military time at an airbase in Indiana.

Perhaps others here have had more luck.Danny Arce any relative of Remigio Arce who was mixed up in Op 40?.

Givens double trip to the 6th and his APB at 1.45 ?.

Soo many questions so little time.

All the best

Ian

IMO, the initial portion of Dougherty's recorded WC testimony is so riddled with inaccuracies and inconsistencies, it can be regarded as incoherent, and the WC questioning incompetent because of the lack of challenges to the contradictory/nonsensical details in the witness's responses.:

http://ssdi.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/ssdi.cgi

DOUGHERTY, JACK E 12 Aug 1923 29 Dec 1994 71 75232 (Dallas, Dallas, TX)

12 August, 1923, D.O.B. matches info in this Dougherty statement to the FBI.:

http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/html/WH_Vol19_0318b.htm

Does anyone have a photograph of Jack Edwin Dougherty?

Testimony Of Jack Edwin Dougherty

The testimony of Jack Edwin Dougherty was taken at 10:50 a.m., on April 8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL - Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before the Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God

Mr. DOUGHERTY - I do.

Mr. BALL - Will you state your name and address for the record?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Jack Edwin Dougherty.

Mr. BALL - And your address?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - 1827 South Marsalis.

Mr. BALL - How old are you?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Forty.

This witness had to be born between 9 April, 1923, and 8 April, 1924.

Mr. BALL - Where were you born?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Here in Dallas.

Mr. BALL - Where did you go to school?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Sunset High School.

Mr. BALL - You went through Sunset High School?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - What year did you get out of high school? About?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Oh, 1937.

Mr. BALL - 1937?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes.

This witness had to have gotten out of high school by the age of 14.

Mr. BALL - What kind of work did you do after that?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, of course, a year or so, you might say--just work in grocery stores until I was 19 and volunteered for the Armed Services in October--October 24, 1942.

This witness accounts for only one year of his time, between 1937 and 1942, but he was 19 years old in 1942, if he was 40 years of age in April, 1964. Again, he seems to have gotten out of high school at age 14.

Mr. BALL - How long were you in the service?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - 2 years, 1 month, 17 days, to be exact.

Mr. BALL - And you were discharged from the Service, then, after the War, was it?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes, sir.

This witness claims to have been discharged from military service about December, 1944. This seems odd, as war was still raging in Europe, the Battle of the Bulge was impending, and the ground war against Japan was just ramping up.

Mr. BALL - What did you do during the service---during your period in the service?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, you might say just about a little bit of everything, from guard duty to---

Mr. BALL - Did you have any active service?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, no--I volunteered for active service, but they said you couldn't very well volunteer--you have to be drafted, so they said, they told me at the time.

Huh? It was not permitted to volunteer for active duty in the military, in the fall of 1942?

Mr. BALL - Did you ever leave the United States during the War?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Oh, yes.

This witness proceeds to directly contradict his affirmative answer.

Mr. BALL - Where did you go?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I was stationed, oh, for about a year up in Indiana up there---Seymour, Ind.

Mr. BALL - Then where did you go from there in the service?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I stayed there until I got discharged.

Mr. BALL - You didn't ever go outside the country to Europe?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Oh, no.

Mr. BALL - Or to the South Seas?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - No.

Mr. BALL - You stayed in this country all the time?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes.

Mr. BALL - Now, did you ever have any difficulty with your speech?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - No.

Mr. BALL - You never had any?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - No.

Mr. BALL - Did you ever have any difficulty in the Army with any medical treatment or anything of that sort?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - No.

Mr. BALL - None at all?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - No.

Mr. BALL - What did you do after you got out of the Army?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, jobs were pretty scarce about the time I got out of the service, so I just went from place to place and applied and put my application in, so I started over here at the Texas School Book Depository and put my application in there and I got it through the Suburban Employment Agency, and I been working there ever since.

Mr. BALL - And that was when--in 1940, was it, you started to work at the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - September 17, 1940.

This witness appears to have declared a specific date of employment at TSBD, but almost immediately provides another date, 12 years in the future.

Mr. BALL - 1940 what?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Let's see, I have been with them 11 years--that would be---

Mr. BALL - That would be 1952, wouldn't it?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes--that's 1952.

Mr. BALL - 1952?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes; that's right, to be exact.

This witness is answering a question put to him in April, 1964. How could any date in the year 1952, be "exactly" 11 years later?

Mr. BALL - What did you do between the time you got out of the service and 1952?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I didn't do anything to be frank with you.

Mr. BALL - You didn't?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - No.

Mr. BALL - You didn't work?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Oh, no.

Mr. BALL - You stayed at home?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - No, sir.

This witness did not work, did not stay home, but admitted to not working for a period of nearly 8 years while continuing to live with his parents. However, the witness denied that he stayed home. The WC attorney did not ask the witness where he went or what he did for nearly 8 years, even after the witness denied that he stayed at home.

Mr. BALL - Did you live with your father and mother?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes.

Mr. BALL - Have you ever been married?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - No.

Mr. BALL - And you still live with your father and mother?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes.

Mr. BALL - Now, what kind of work have you been doing at the Texas School Book Depository in the last few years?...

Is this Sunset High School member of the 1941 sophomore class, our Jack Dougherty? Did he actually enter the school in Sept., 1937 and fall two class years behind, by the spring of 1941?

5548347890_301dba258e_b.jpg

Edit: Jack Dougherty is listed in the 1939 Sunset High School yearbook as a member of the class of 1942, the freshman class. His name does not appear in the 1938 yearbook freshman class.

Dougherty appears to be an incompetent, unreliable witness, questioned by an incompetent or disinterested WC staff.

Truly explained in his interviews and testimony that Dougherty was essentially retarded, and easily confused. Everything backs this up. I've often wondered, however, if this wasn't by design. If Dougherty were to have been part of the conspiracy, or to have been coerced by a family member or someone he trusted into helping someone shoot Kennedy and escape, no one would have been the wiser, as he was below suspicion.

Edited by Pat Speer
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  • 9 months later...

[...]

IMO, the initial portion of Dougherty's recorded WC testimony is so riddled with inaccuracies and inconsistencies, it can be regarded as incoherent, and the WC questioning incompetent because of the lack of challenges to the contradictory/nonsensical details in the witness's responses.:

http://ssdi.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/ssdi.cgi

DOUGHERTY, JACK E 12 Aug 1923 29 Dec 1994 71 75232 (Dallas, Dallas, TX)

12 August, 1923, D.O.B. matches info in this Dougherty statement to the FBI.:

http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/html/WH_Vol19_0318b.htm

Does anyone have a photograph of Jack Edwin Dougherty?

Testimony Of Jack Edwin Dougherty

The testimony of Jack Edwin Dougherty was taken at 10:50 a.m., on April 8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL - Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before the Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God

Mr. DOUGHERTY - I do.

Mr. BALL - Will you state your name and address for the record?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Jack Edwin Dougherty.

Mr. BALL - And your address?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - 1827 South Marsalis.

Mr. BALL - How old are you?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Forty.

This witness had to be born between 9 April, 1923, and 8 April, 1924.

Mr. BALL - Where were you born?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Here in Dallas.

Mr. BALL - Where did you go to school?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Sunset High School.

Mr. BALL - You went through Sunset High School?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - What year did you get out of high school? About?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Oh, 1937.

Mr. BALL - 1937?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes.

This witness had to have gotten out of high school by the age of 14.

Mr. BALL - What kind of work did you do after that?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, of course, a year or so, you might say--just work in grocery stores until I was 19 and volunteered for the Armed Services in October--October 24, 1942.

This witness accounts for only one year of his time, between 1937 and 1942, but he was 19 years old in 1942, if he was 40 years of age in April, 1964. Again, he seems to have gotten out of high school at age 14.

Mr. BALL - How long were you in the service?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - 2 years, 1 month, 17 days, to be exact.

Mr. BALL - And you were discharged from the Service, then, after the War, was it?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes, sir.

This witness claims to have been discharged from military service about December, 1944. This seems odd, as war was still raging in Europe, the Battle of the Bulge was impending, and the ground war against Japan was just ramping up.

Mr. BALL - What did you do during the service---during your period in the service?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, you might say just about a little bit of everything, from guard duty to---

Mr. BALL - Did you have any active service?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, no--I volunteered for active service, but they said you couldn't very well volunteer--you have to be drafted, so they said, they told me at the time.

Huh? It was not permitted to volunteer for active duty in the military, in the fall of 1942?

Mr. BALL - Did you ever leave the United States during the War?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Oh, yes.

This witness proceeds to directly contradict his affirmative answer.

Mr. BALL - Where did you go?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I was stationed, oh, for about a year up in Indiana up there---Seymour, Ind.

Mr. BALL - Then where did you go from there in the service?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I stayed there until I got discharged.

Mr. BALL - You didn't ever go outside the country to Europe?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Oh, no.

Mr. BALL - Or to the South Seas?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - No.

Mr. BALL - You stayed in this country all the time?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes.

Mr. BALL - Now, did you ever have any difficulty with your speech?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - No.

Mr. BALL - You never had any?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - No.

Mr. BALL - Did you ever have any difficulty in the Army with any medical treatment or anything of that sort?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - No.

Mr. BALL - None at all?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - No.

Mr. BALL - What did you do after you got out of the Army?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, jobs were pretty scarce about the time I got out of the service, so I just went from place to place and applied and put my application in, so I started over here at the Texas School Book Depository and put my application in there and I got it through the Suburban Employment Agency, and I been working there ever since.

Mr. BALL - And that was when--in 1940, was it, you started to work at the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - September 17, 1940.

This witness appears to have declared a specific date of employment at TSBD, but almost immediately provides another date, 12 years in the future.

Mr. BALL - 1940 what?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Let's see, I have been with them 11 years--that would be---

Mr. BALL - That would be 1952, wouldn't it?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes--that's 1952.

Mr. BALL - 1952?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes; that's right, to be exact.

This witness is answering a question put to him in April, 1964. How could any date in the year 1952, be "exactly" 11 years later?

Mr. BALL - What did you do between the time you got out of the service and 1952?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I didn't do anything to be frank with you.

Mr. BALL - You didn't?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - No.

Mr. BALL - You didn't work?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Oh, no.

Mr. BALL - You stayed at home?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - No, sir.

This witness did not work, did not stay home, but admitted to not working for a period of nearly 8 years while continuing to live with his parents. However, the witness denied that he stayed home. The WC attorney did not ask the witness where he went or what he did for nearly 8 years, even after the witness denied that he stayed at home.

Mr. BALL - Did you live with your father and mother?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes.

Mr. BALL - Have you ever been married?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - No.

Mr. BALL - And you still live with your father and mother?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes.

Mr. BALL - Now, what kind of work have you been doing at the Texas School Book Depository in the last few years?...

Is this Sunset High School member of the 1941 sophomore class, our Jack Dougherty? Did he actually enter the school in Sept., 1937 and fall two class years behind, by the spring of 1941?

5548347890_301dba258e_b.jpg

Edit: Jack Dougherty is listed in the 1939 Sunset High School yearbook as a member of the class of 1942, the freshman class. His name does not appear in the 1938 yearbook freshman class.

Dougherty appears to be an incompetent, unreliable witness, questioned by an incompetent or disinterested WC staff.

Truly explained in his interviews and testimony that Dougherty was essentially retarded, and easily confused. Everything backs this up. I've often wondered, however, if this wasn't by design. If Dougherty were to have been part of the conspiracy, or to have been coerced by a family member or someone he trusted into helping someone shoot Kennedy and escape, no one would have been the wiser, as he was below suspicion.

Nice find, Tom.

Assuming that Jack isn't mentioned in the 1942 yearbook, he dropped out or was asked to leave during the 1940-1941 school year. So he lied or really "spaced out" when he told the Warren Commission that he'd left school in 1937. He was two years older than his sophomore classmates in 1940. Maybe he had been "held back" twice?

--Tommy :)

Edited by Thomas Graves
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[...]

IMO, the initial portion of Dougherty's recorded WC testimony is so riddled with inaccuracies and inconsistencies, it can be regarded as incoherent, and the WC questioning incompetent because of the lack of challenges to the contradictory/nonsensical details in the witness's responses.:

http://ssdi.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/ssdi.cgi

DOUGHERTY, JACK E 12 Aug 1923 29 Dec 1994 71 75232 (Dallas, Dallas, TX)

12 August, 1923, D.O.B. matches info in this Dougherty statement to the FBI.:

http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/html/WH_Vol19_0318b.htm

Does anyone have a photograph of Jack Edwin Dougherty?

Testimony Of Jack Edwin Dougherty

The testimony of Jack Edwin Dougherty was taken at 10:50 a.m., on April 8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL - Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before the Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God

Mr. DOUGHERTY - I do.

Mr. BALL - Will you state your name and address for the record?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Jack Edwin Dougherty.

Mr. BALL - And your address?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - 1827 South Marsalis.

Mr. BALL - How old are you?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Forty.

This witness had to be born between 9 April, 1923, and 8 April, 1924.

Mr. BALL - Where were you born?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Here in Dallas.

Mr. BALL - Where did you go to school?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Sunset High School.

Mr. BALL - You went through Sunset High School?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - What year did you get out of high school? About?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Oh, 1937.

Mr. BALL - 1937?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes.

This witness had to have gotten out of high school by the age of 14.

Mr. BALL - What kind of work did you do after that?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, of course, a year or so, you might say--just work in grocery stores until I was 19 and volunteered for the Armed Services in October--October 24, 1942.

This witness accounts for only one year of his time, between 1937 and 1942, but he was 19 years old in 1942, if he was 40 years of age in April, 1964. Again, he seems to have gotten out of high school at age 14.

Mr. BALL - How long were you in the service?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - 2 years, 1 month, 17 days, to be exact.

Mr. BALL - And you were discharged from the Service, then, after the War, was it?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes, sir.

This witness claims to have been discharged from military service about December, 1944. This seems odd, as war was still raging in Europe, the Battle of the Bulge was impending, and the ground war against Japan was just ramping up.

Mr. BALL - What did you do during the service---during your period in the service?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, you might say just about a little bit of everything, from guard duty to---

Mr. BALL - Did you have any active service?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, no--I volunteered for active service, but they said you couldn't very well volunteer--you have to be drafted, so they said, they told me at the time.

Huh? It was not permitted to volunteer for active duty in the military, in the fall of 1942?

Mr. BALL - Did you ever leave the United States during the War?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Oh, yes.

This witness proceeds to directly contradict his affirmative answer.

Mr. BALL - Where did you go?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I was stationed, oh, for about a year up in Indiana up there---Seymour, Ind.

Mr. BALL - Then where did you go from there in the service?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I stayed there until I got discharged.

Mr. BALL - You didn't ever go outside the country to Europe?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Oh, no.

Mr. BALL - Or to the South Seas?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - No.

Mr. BALL - You stayed in this country all the time?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes.

Mr. BALL - Now, did you ever have any difficulty with your speech?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - No.

Mr. BALL - You never had any?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - No.

Mr. BALL - Did you ever have any difficulty in the Army with any medical treatment or anything of that sort?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - No.

Mr. BALL - None at all?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - No.

Mr. BALL - What did you do after you got out of the Army?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, jobs were pretty scarce about the time I got out of the service, so I just went from place to place and applied and put my application in, so I started over here at the Texas School Book Depository and put my application in there and I got it through the Suburban Employment Agency, and I been working there ever since.

Mr. BALL - And that was when--in 1940, was it, you started to work at the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - September 17, 1940.

This witness appears to have declared a specific date of employment at TSBD, but almost immediately provides another date, 12 years in the future.

Mr. BALL - 1940 what?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Let's see, I have been with them 11 years--that would be---

Mr. BALL - That would be 1952, wouldn't it?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes--that's 1952.

Mr. BALL - 1952?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes; that's right, to be exact.

This witness is answering a question put to him in April, 1964. How could any date in the year 1952, be "exactly" 11 years later?

Mr. BALL - What did you do between the time you got out of the service and 1952?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I didn't do anything to be frank with you.

Mr. BALL - You didn't?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - No.

Mr. BALL - You didn't work?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Oh, no.

Mr. BALL - You stayed at home?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - No, sir.

This witness did not work, did not stay home, but admitted to not working for a period of nearly 8 years while continuing to live with his parents. However, the witness denied that he stayed home. The WC attorney did not ask the witness where he went or what he did for nearly 8 years, even after the witness denied that he stayed at home.

Mr. BALL - Did you live with your father and mother?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes.

Mr. BALL - Have you ever been married?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - No.

Mr. BALL - And you still live with your father and mother?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes.

Mr. BALL - Now, what kind of work have you been doing at the Texas School Book Depository in the last few years?...

Is this Sunset High School member of the 1941 sophomore class, our Jack Dougherty? Did he actually enter the school in Sept., 1937 and fall two class years behind, by the spring of 1941?

5548347890_301dba258e_b.jpg

Edit: Jack Dougherty is listed in the 1939 Sunset High School yearbook as a member of the class of 1942, the freshman class. His name does not appear in the 1938 yearbook freshman class.

Dougherty appears to be an incompetent, unreliable witness, questioned by an incompetent or disinterested WC staff.

Truly explained in his interviews and testimony that Dougherty was essentially retarded, and easily confused. Everything backs this up. I've often wondered, however, if this wasn't by design. If Dougherty were to have been part of the conspiracy, or to have been coerced by a family member or someone he trusted into helping someone shoot Kennedy and escape, no one would have been the wiser, as he was below suspicion.

Nice find, Tom.

Assuming that Dougherty isn't mentioned in the 1942 yearbook, he dropped out or was asked to leave during the 1940-1941 school year. So he lied or really "spaced out" when he told the Warren Commission that he'd left school in 1937. He was two years older than his sophomore classmates in 1940. Maybe he had been "held back" twice?

--Tommy :)

bump

Edited by Thomas Graves
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Truly explained in his interviews and testimony that Dougherty was essentially retarded, and easily confused. Everything backs this up. I've often wondered, however, if this wasn't by design. If Dougherty were to have been part of the conspiracy, or to have been coerced by a family member or someone he trusted into helping someone shoot Kennedy and escape, no one would have been the wiser, as he was below suspicion.

Hi Pat.... OTTOMH, it also reminded me about the invented "slow" museum janitor character that thief EDWARD NORTON portrayed in the film "The Score" (2001), with ROBERT De NIRO Jr.

Best Regards in Research,

++Don

Donald Roberdeau

U.S.S. John F. Kennedy, CV-67, plank walker

Sooner, or later, The Truth emerges Clearly

For your considerations....

Homepage : President KENNEDY "Men of Courage" speech, and Assassination Evidence,

Witnesses, Suspects + Outstanding Researchers Discoveries and Considerations.... http://droberdeau.bl...ination_09.html

Dealey Plaza Map : Detailing 11-22-63 Victims precise locations, Witnesses, Films & Photos,

Evidence, Suspected bullet trajectories, Important information & Key Considerations, in One Convenient Resource.... http://img831.images...dated110110.gif

Visual Report : "The First Bullet Impact Into President Kennedy: while JFK was Still Hidden

Under the 'magic-limbed-ricochet-tree' ".... http://img504.images...k1102308ms8.gif

Visual Report : Reality versus C.A.D. : the Real World, versus, Garbage-In, Garbage-Out.... http://img248.images...ealityvscad.gif

Discovery : "Very Close JFK Assassination Witness ROSEMARY WILLIS Zapruder Film

Documented 2nd Headsnap:

West, Ultrafast, and Directly Towards the Grassy Knoll".... http://educationforu...?showtopic=2394

T ogether

E veryone

A chieves

M ore

For the United States:

advisory7regional.gif

http://www.dhs.gov/dhspublic/

Edited by Don Roberdeau
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What was the name of the work crew that did the flooring etc?

Bill Shelley

Billy Lovelady

Jack Dougherty

Danny Arce

Charles Givens

and by some accounts, Bonnie Ray Williams and/or Hank Norman may have helped out.

According to the statements of all the employees, the only account of a stranger or unknown person in the TSBD on the morning of 11/22/63 was an 80 year old man that talked to Danny Arce.

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[...]

According to the statements of all the employees, the only account of a stranger or unknown person in the TSBD on the morning of 11/22/63 was an 80 year old man that talked to Danny Arce.

Lets say that he looked like an 80 year old man. He asked Arce where the restroom was, and then went in the building to find it. Must have been in pretty good shape to walk up the front stairs!

The "Geezer Bandit" bank robber here in San Diego looks like an old man, but was caught by a surveillance camera running like an Olympic Champ across the parking lot when a dye pack exploded on him. LOL He probably wears a special mask to make him look a lot older than he is.

The "old man" who talked with Danny Arce was probably E. Howard Hunt in one of his many disguises. Or Dave Phillips. He had an acting background, you know.

--Tommy :)

Edited by Thomas Graves
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Not sure here...

but are we trying to say that because the proceedings and his mental state were mixing him up a bit... this testimony is unreliable?

and we're supposed to believe Buell's story about the mystery bag?

Mr. BALL - Did he come in with anybody?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - No.

Mr. BALL - He was alone?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes; he was alone.

Mr. BALL - Do you recall him having anything in his hand?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I didn't see anything, if he did.

Mr. BALL - Did you pay enough attention to him, you think, that you would remember whether he did or didn't?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I believe I can---yes, sir---I'll put it this way; I didn't see anything in his hands at the time.

Mr. BALL - In other words, your memory is definite on that is it?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - In other words, you would say positively he had nothing in his hands?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - I would say that---yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - Or, are you guessing?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - I don't think so.

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, then, I went back to work.

Mr. BALL - And where did you go to work?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Let me see---oh, up to the sixth floor.

Mr. BALL - Did you go to the sixth floor?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - About what time?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - At about 12:40---it was about 12:40.

Couldn't the man moving the boxes be Dougherty?

and then therE is more confusion about who saw that bag in Oswald's hands... I can find nothing that suggests Shelley sees Oswald with the bag...

Mr. BALL - Did you ever see Lee Oswald carry any sort of large package?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I didn't, but some of the fellows said they did.

Mr. BALL - Who said that?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, Bill Shelley, he told me that he thought he saw him carrying a fairly good-sized package.

Mr. BALL - When did Shelley tell you that?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, it was--the day after it happened.

Mr. BALL - On the 22d of November 1963, did you see him come to work that morning?

Mr. SHELLEY - No, he was at work when I got there already filling orders.

Edited by David Josephs
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