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WA student murdered by Gaddafi marksman

EXCLUSIVE Joseph Catanzaro, The West AustralianJune26, 2011, 9:30 am

http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/wa/9710024/wa-student-murdered-by-gaddafi-marksman/

A Perth student has been murdered bysoldiers loyal to dictator Muammar Gaddafi's regime after returning home to Libya because he was worried abouthis family's welfare.

Thedeath of the 27-year-old University of WA English language student Omar Swyeb inApril has raised fears among the several hundred Libyans studying in WA. Manysay they and their children will be imprisoned or killed when their visasexpire and they are forced to return home.

Aninvestigation by _The Weekend West _also uncovered claims that a smallcontingent of students loyal to Gaddafi were spies for the regime in Perth andwere taking names and photographs of rebel sympathisers to add to a Libyansecret police blacklist, which earmarked dissidents for death or prison.

Inthe wake of the reports, the Greens will announce today that the party hasmoved in the Senate to have student visas for Libyans extended until the crisisin the war-torn country has been resolved.

OnCurtin University campus yesterday, outside asmall building set aside as a Muslim prayer room, many Libyan students saidthey were too afraid to be seen talking.

One26-year-old who did not want to be named, said his brother had telephoned andwarned him not to go back to Libya, because secret police hadarrived at the family home after footage was posted on YouTube of him in a Perth protest.

Oneman who wasn't afraid to speak out was Hamza Eldenferiq, Mr Swyeb's bestfriend. They were both from the rebel-held western city of Misrata and Mr Eldenferiq is convincedhe would be killed in Libya simply because of where he grewup.

Strugglingto hold back tears, he spoke about the death of his friend, who had been"like a brother".

Describedas a happy young man who had enjoyed taking road trips around WA since arrivingabout a year ago, Mr Swyeb returned to his besieged home town of Misrata in March.

"Hewas always smiling, he had a sense of humour," Mr Eldenferiq, 26, said."He was worried about his family, because they are in trouble; that is whyhe went back."

BiancaPanizza, director of UWA Centre for English Language Teaching, said staff hadpleaded with the "very bright" student not to go.

ButMr Swyeb would not be deterred, dodging checkpoints by hitching a ride in Benghazi on a small boat smuggling gunsinto Misrata.

OnApril 24, he was among a group of rebels that clashed with soldiers invadingthe town.

"Hewas trying to push the soldiers to get out of Misrata because they wereshooting civilians," Mr Eldenferiq said.

"Oneof the snipers shot him in the heart." Another friend, 41-year-old Curtinstudent Jalal Srar, said Mr Swyeb's death proved how dangerous it was forLibyans to return home.

Hisstudent visa about to expire, he feared what would happen to his wife and threeyoung children when they returned to Libya.

Otherstudents were growing desperate because the study allowance from the LibyanGovernment they relied on had been cut off. Murdoch student, Wesa, 56, said ithad been three months since he had received any money.

EveryLibyan interviewed independently said that even in WA, they were not beyond thereach of the Gaddafi regime. Mr Eldenferiq had been warned by students who haddefected from the pro-Gaddafi faction that there were spies working for theregime in Perth.

WAGreens Senator Scott Ludlam said his party's motion came after the precedentset by former Labor prime minister Bob Hawke, who in 1989 granted about 19,000Chinese nationals visas to stay in Australia after the Tiananmen Square massacre.

Upfor a vote on July 4, the motion proposes students from war-torn countries,including Libya, Syria and Bahrain, be allowed to stay in Australia until it issafe to return to their homes and that work restrictions be lifted in cases offinancial hardship.

A spokeswoman for Immigration Minister Chris Bowen said anyof the 1446 Libyan students in Australia who believed it was unsafe toreturn home - where rebels claim the conflict has now claimed more than 10,000lives since it began in February - could make an application for a further visain Australia.

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We go to Tripolito rejoin the continuing American Revolution.

By William E. Kelly, Jr.

I see the parallel at once - both uprisings were a disaster for black people:

Ethnic Cleansing of Black Libyans

Rebels, with the help of NATO bombs and missiles, drove out Misrata's Black population

Global Research, June 26, 2011

Black Star News - 2011-06-21

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=25400

The "rebels" in Misrata in Libya have driven out the entire Black population of the city, according to a chilling story in The Wall Street Journal today under the headline Libya City Torn by Tribal Feud."

The "rebels" now eye the city of Tawergha, 25 miles away, and vow to cleanse it of all Black people once they seize the city. Isn't this the perfect definition of the term "genocide"?

According to The Journal's article, the "rebels" refer to themselves as "the brigade for purging slaves, black skin." The Journal quotes a rebel commander Ibrahim al-Halbous saying, of Black Libyans, "They should pack up," and that "Tawergha no longer exists, only Mistrata."

You won't read this kind of article in The New York Times, which has become as journalistically corrupt and as compromised as the old PRAVDA, during the Soviet era. This editorial page has been insisting since the beginning of the Libya conflict that the "rebels" embraced racism and used the allegation that Muammar al-Quathafi had employed mercenaries from other African countries as a pretext to massacre Black Libyans.

The evidence of public lynching of Black people are readily available online through simple Google or YouTube searches, even though The New York Times has completely ignored this major story. Does anyone believe that if people of African descent controlled the editorials in The New York Times or even the news pages that such a huge and damning story would be ignored?

If the case were reversed and Black Libyans were committing ethnic cleansing against non-Black Libyans, does anyone believe that the people who now control the editorials or the news pages at The New York Times would ignore such a story? Evidently, it doesn't much bother the sages at The Times that Black Libyans and specifically being targeted for liquidation because of their skin color.

Instead The New York Times is busy, as in a recent editorial boasting of its support for NATO's bombing campaign, which this week alone is reported to have killed 20 civilians. The Times has also ignored Rep. Dennis Kucinich’s call that the International Criminal Court (ICC) investigate NATO commanders on possible war crimes in connection to Libyan civilians killed.

The Times can't write about the ethnic cleansing of Black Libyans and migrants from other African countries because it would diminish the reputation of the "rebels" who the Times have fully embraced, even after the ICC also reported that they too have committed war crimes. Instead, The Times is comfortable with the simplistic narrative: "al-Quathafi bad," and "rebels good," regardless of the fact that The Wall Street Journal also reported that the rebels are being trained by former al-Qaeda leaders who were released from U.S. custody on Guantanamo Bay.

The Times also has totally ignored the African Union (AU) peace plan, which actually calls for a ceasefire, negotiations for a constitution, and democratic elections, all to be monitored by the International community.

So what can one say about the Times for ignoring the ethnic cleansing of Black Libyans by the "rebels" in Mistrata, with the help of NATO? Does this make The New York Times culpable of the ethnic cleansing, since the newspaper not only deliberately ignores the story, but also falsely depicts the "rebels" as Libya's saviors?

Call The New York Times at (212) 556-1234 and ask for the Foreign Desk editor--ask him why his newspaper is not reporting on the ethnic cleansing of Black Libyans.

"Speaking Truth To Empower."

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We go to Tripolito rejoin the continuing American Revolution.

By William E. Kelly, Jr.

I see the parallel at once - both uprisings were a disaster for black people:

Ethnic Cleansing of Black Libyans

Rebels, with the help of NATO bombs and missiles, drove out Misrata's Black population

Global Research, June 26, 2011

Black Star News - 2011-06-21

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=25400

The "rebels" in Misrata in Libya have driven out the entire Black population of the city, according to a chilling story in The Wall Street Journal today under the headline Libya City Torn by Tribal Feud."

The "rebels" now eye the city of Tawergha, 25 miles away, and vow to cleanse it of all Black people once they seize the city. Isn't this the perfect definition of the term "genocide"?

Racial exterminism - as American as apple pie:

North Carolina's reparation for the dark past of American eugenics

North Carolina's compensation to victims of forced sterilisation is a chance to illuminate a gruesome US tradition of racial 'science'

By Edwin Black, 28 June 2011

Oil magnate John D Rockefeller, in 1930. Millions of dollars from the Rockefeller Foundation, as well as from steel magnate Andrew Carnegie and the railroad fortune of the Harrimans, funded racial 'science' eugenics programmes in the US and Nazi Germany.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2011/jun/28/north-carolina-forced-sterilization

Hitler's race hate debt to America

The Nazis' extermination programme was carried out in the name of eugenics. Edwin Black in an extract from his new book describes how Adolf Hitler's ideas were shaped by American eugenicists

http://www.guardian.co.uk/theguardian/2004/feb/12/guardianweekly.guardianweekly11

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Ah, yes,

Paul Rigby says: "Racial exterminism - as American as apple pie."

Now that's "exterminism" - not extremism - as exterminating an entire race of people, as Gadhafi has tired to do with the Berbers in the Narut mountains, who are now only 50 miles from Tripoli and enroute there.

What race have Americans tried to exterminate again?

My friend Cynthia McKinney recently came home from Tripoli, and reports that everyone she encountered loves their leader Gadhafi, and the only thing that keeps things from running normally is the NATO bombing.

Like you, she also claims that the revolution is racist, while in fact, the rebels include many blacks who defected from Gadhafi's army, including some mercenaries from sub-sahara.

McKinney makes a few mistakes, like taking the NATO attacks out of the context of the revolution, and implying, as you do, that the revolution is racist.

She repeatedly brings up the fact that Americans and European slave traders took thousands of Africans and imported them to America, but fails to note the real history of Libya and US relations that date to when the Barbary Pirates of Tripoli captured American and European merchant ships and enslaved their crews - estimated conservatively as around 600 Americans and Europeans.

In my Open Letter to Cynthia, I call attention to this fact, as it is one of the reasons the USA went to war with Tripoli in the first place, and include a painting of the slave market at Tripoli where the black slave traders check out the teeth of a young white women before she is bartered for.

Revolutionary Program: Open Letter to Cynthia McKinney

Ah, Misrata, you want to talk about Misrata?

While Cynthia didn't visit there, the city was pretty much totally destroyed by a three month seige that has now been broken. During that time, over 200 women have reported they were raped by Gadhafi forces, some in front of their parents, some in events found on the cell phone cameras of the Gadhafi soldiers who were later killed or captured. Gadhafi forces left military documents behind that prove that Gadhafi himself ordered the extermination of the city - and that's your word as well as Gadhafi's, so I suggest you talk to some people from Libya's third largest city before you make any allegations of racism and extermination of races. The documents and testimony from witnesses from Misrata served as the basis for the world court's indictment of Gadhafi this week.

Here's a video report from Misrata after the indictments were announced.

YouTube - LIBYA WAR:Misrata celebrates among the ruins-17.05.2011

Where were you and Cythia McKinney when Misrata was being besieged and bombed for two months, and thousands killed indiscriminately, including many women and children?

If you can stomach the video, look at the graves of those civilians who have died, and you wonder why they hate and kill black mercenaries?

And they'e not Americans, by the way.

If Misrata had not held out, and had NATO not stopped Gadhafi's tanks from destroying Benghazi, Gadhafi would have maintained his dictatorship and police state for another generation of Gadhafis.

When the revolution is over, the people of Misrata will be celebrated as martyrs and heroes, as they already are in poems and songs.

Bill Kelly

Revolutionary Program

Remember the Intrepid

Edited by William Kelly
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Ah, Misrata, you want to talk about Misrata?

While Cynthia didn't visit there, the city was pretty much totally destroyed by a three month seige that has now been broken. During that time, over 200 women have reported they were raped by Gadhafi forces, some in front of their parents, some in events found on the cell phone cameras of the Gadhafi soldiers who were later killed or captured. Gadhafi forces left military documents behind that prove that Gadhafi himself ordered the extermination of the city - and that's your word as well as Gadhafi's, so I suggest you talk to some people from Libya's third largest city before you make any allegations of racism and extermination of races. The documents and testimony from witnesses from Misrata served as the basis for the world court's indictment of Gadhafi this week.

And what about the Belgian nuns, Bill? Really, this is just a compendium of State Department nonsense attempting to justify an oil grab and regime change.

Libya: Unending American Hostility

By William Blum

July 02, 2011 "Information Clearing House" -- If I could publicly ask our beloved president one question, it would be this: "Mr. President, in your short time in office you've waged war against six countries — Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Somalia, Yemen and Libya. This makes me wonder something. With all due respect: What is wrong with you?"

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article28453.htm

The American media has done its best to dismiss or ignore Libyan charges that NATO/US missiles have been killing civilians (the people they're supposedly protecting), at least up until the recent bombing "error" that was too blatant to be covered up. But who in the mainstream media has questioned the NATO/US charges that Libya was targeting and "massacring" Libyan civilians a few months ago, which, we've been told, is the reason for the Western powers attacks? Don't look to Al Jazeera for such questioning. The government of Qatar, which owns the station, has a deep-seated animosity toward Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi and was itself a leading purveyor of the Libyan "massacre" stories, as well as playing a military role in the war against Tripoli. Al Jazeera's reporting on the subject has been so disgraceful I've stopped looking at the station.

Alain Juppé, Foreign Minister of France, which has been the leading force behind the attacks on Libya, spoke at the Brookings Institution in Washington on June 7. After his talk he was asked a question from the audience by local activist Ken Meyercord:

"An American observer of events in Libya has commented: 'The evidence was not persuasive that a large-scale massacre or genocide was either likely or imminent.' That comment was made by Richard Haass, President of our Council on Foreign Relations. If Mr. Haass is right, and he's a fairly knowledgeable fellow, then what NATO has done in Libya is attack a country that wasn't threatening anyone; in other words, aggression. Are you at all concerned that as NATO deals more and more death and destruction on the people of Libya that the International Criminal Court may decide that you and your friends in the Naked Aggression Treaty Organization should be prosecuted rather than Mr. Gaddafi?"

Monsieur Juppé then stated, without attribution, somebody's estimate that 15,000 Libyan civilians had been killed by pro-Gaddafi forces. To which Mr. Meyercord replied: "So where are the 15,000 bodies?" M. Juppé failed to respond to this, although in the tumult caused by the first question, it was not certain that he had heard the second one. (For a counter-view of the Libyan "massacre" stories, see this video.)

It should be noted that, as of June 30, NATO had flown 13,184 air missions (sorties) over Libya, 4,963 of which are described as strike sorties. You can find the latest figures on the Allied Command Operations website.

If any foreign power fired missiles at the United States would Barack Obama regard that as an act of war? If the US firing hundreds of missiles at Libya is not an act of war, as Obama insists (to avoid having to declare war as required by US law), then the deaths resulting from the missile attacks are murder. That's it. It's either war or murder. To the extent there's a difference between the two.

It should be further noted that since Gaddafi came to power in 1969 there has virtually never been a sustained period when the United States has been prepared to treat him and the many positive changes he's instituted in Libya and Africa with any respect. For a history of this hostility, including the continual lies and scare campaigns, see my Libya chapter in Killing Hope.

America and its perpetual quest for love

Why can't we "get some of the people in these downtrodden countries to like us instead of hating us."

– President Dwight D.Eisenhower, in a March,1953 National Security Council Meeting 1

The United States is still wondering, and is no closer to an understanding than Good Ol' Ike was almost 60 years ago. American leaders still believe what Frances Fitzgerald observed in her study of American history textbooks: "According to these books, the United States had been a kind of Salvation Army to the rest of the world: throughout history, it had done little but dispense benefits to poor, ignorant, and diseased countries. ... the United States always acted in a disinterested fashion, always from the highest of motives; it gave, never took." 2

In 2007 I wrote in this report about the US military in Iraq:

I almost feel sorry for them. They're "can-do" Americans, accustomed to getting their way, accustomed to thinking of themselves as the best, and they're frustrated as hell, unable to figure out "why they hate us", why we can't win them over, why we can't at least wipe them out. Don't they want freedom and democracy? ... They're can-do Americans, using good ol' American know-how and Madison Avenue savvy, sales campaigns, public relations, advertising, selling the US brand, just like they do it back home; employing psychologists and anthropologists ... and nothing helps. And how can it if the product you're selling is toxic, inherently, from birth, if you're totally ruining your customers' lives, with no regard for any kind of law or morality, health or environment. They're can-do Americans, accustomed to playing by the rules — theirs; and they're frustrated as hell.

Here now the Google Cavalry rides up on its silver horse. Through its think tank, Google Ideas (or "think/do tank"), the company paid for 80 former Muslim extremists, neo-Nazis, U.S. gang members and other former radicals to gather in Dublin June 26-28 ("Summit Against Violent Extremism", or SAVE) to explore how technology can play a role in "de-radicalization" efforts around the globe. Now is that not Can-do ambitious?

The "formers," as they have been dubbed by Google, will be surrounded by 120 thinkers, activists, philanthropists and business leaders. The goal is to dissect the question of what draws some people, particularly young people, to extremist movements and why some of them leave.

The person in charge of this project is Jared Cohen, who spent four years on the State Department's Policy Planning staff, and is soon to be an adjunct fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations (CFR), focusing on counter-radicalization, innovation, technology, and statecraft. 3

So ... it's "violent extremism" that's the big mystery, the target for all these intellectuals to figure out. ... Why does violent extremism attract so many young people all over the world? Or, of more importance probably to the State Department and CFR types: Why do violent extremists single out the United States as their target of choice?

Readers of this report do not need to be enlightened as to the latter question. There is simply an abundance of terrible things US foreign policy has done in every corner of the world. As to what attracts young people to violent extremism, consider this: What makes a million young Americans willing to travel to places like Afghanistan and Iraq to risk their life and limbs to kill other young people, who have never done them any harm, and to commit unspeakable atrocities and tortures?

Is this not extreme behavior? Can these young Americans not be called "extremists" or "radicals"? Are they not violent? Do the Google experts understand their behavior? If not, how will they ever understand the foreign Muslim extremists? Are the experts prepared to examine the underlying phenomenon — the deep-seated belief in "American exceptionalism" drilled into every cell and nerve ganglion of American consciousness from pre-kindergarten on? Do the esteemed experts then have to wonder about those who believe in "Muslim exceptionalism"?

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Paul asks,

"And what about the Belgian nuns, Bill? Really, this is just a compendium of State Department nonsense attempting to justify an oil grab and regime change."

Yes, Paul, I take orders from the Minister of Dizinformation at the State Department, and just can't wait until that Libyan oil hits the market and reduces gas prices back to a dollar a gallon, probably the best reason to get rid of Gadhafi's regime.

And then -

Monsieur Juppé then stated, without attribution, somebody's estimate that 15,000 Libyan civilians had been killed by pro-Gaddafi forces. To which Mr. Meyercord replied: "So where are the 15,000 bodies?"

Here they are Monsier Meyercord, and they aren't hard to find:

Revolutionary Program

Edited by William Kelly
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"Bipartisan foreign policy" makes a mockery of our absurd two-party system, which in reality is one party- the war party, the globalist party. We have absolutely no business in Libya, much as we have no business in Iraq, Afghanistan or Yemen. We have become the Great Satan, bombing and occupying foreign countries, and killing untold number of civilians in the process.

Obama the great "peace" candidate is now at war with four harmless, tiny nations. The last president to reject war was JFK, who did it multiple times during his administration. In fact, JFK may be the ONLY sitting president who rejected the call to war. That's one of the main reasons I still admire him so much.

With the worst economy in our nation's history, a disastrous inequity between the haves and have nots, abysmal lack of jobs, and a crumbling infrastructure, the last thing we should be doing is enforcing our idea of "freedom" on other countries at the point of a gun. We have huge problems to address at home.

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Btw, why can't we spell the new (and formerly old) boogeyman's name correctly? In the old days, when he was public enemy number one, there were two basic variations; Quaddafi and Khaddafy. Now, for some reason, we put a "G" in front. Why is there such confusion about how such a famous man's name is spelled?

Or is this just related to the American tendency to just be stupid about these things. You know, like mispronoucing Iraq (E-Rock) as Eye-Rack?

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Yes, Paul, I take orders from the Minister of Dizinformation at the State Department...

Explains quite a bit, all things considered, Bill, not least your standards of "proof" and "evidence":

Mohammed told AFP why he is certain 30-year-old's Ahmed's fate was sealed while green flags were waving on the other side of the capital and as Kadhafi dished out threats against Europe, NATO and Libyan "traitors" on Friday...

Ahmed went missing in Tripoli a few days after the uprising against Kadhafi began in February...

http://revolutionaryprogram.blogspot.com/

Goodness, that's compelling.

I wonder what the excuse was when the CIA helped the Guatemalan military and its death squads eradicate several hundred Mayan villages - and many of their occupants - in Guatemala?

http://www1.american.edu/ted/ice/peten.htm

The human rights of the land owners had been violated, perhaps?

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"Bipartisan foreign policy" makes a mockery of our absurd two-party system, which in reality is one party- the war party, the globalist party. We have absolutely no business in Libya, much as we have no business in Iraq, Afghanistan or Yemen. We have become the Great Satan, bombing and occupying foreign countries, and killing untold number of civilians in the process.

Obama the great "peace" candidate is now at war with four harmless, tiny nations. The last president to reject war was JFK, who did it multiple times during his administration. In fact, JFK may be the ONLY sitting president who rejected the call to war. That's one of the main reasons I still admire him so much.

With the worst economy in our nation's history, a disastrous inequity between the haves and have nots, abysmal lack of jobs, and a crumbling infrastructure, the last thing we should be doing is enforcing our idea of "freedom" on other countries at the point of a gun. We have huge problems to address at home.

That's so sensible you'll never get anywhere in US politics, Don.

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"Bipartisan foreign policy" makes a mockery of our absurd two-party system, which in reality is one party- the war party, the globalist party. We have absolutely no business in Libya, much as we have no business in Iraq, Afghanistan or Yemen. We have become the Great Satan, bombing and occupying foreign countries, and killing untold number of civilians in the process.

Obama the great "peace" candidate is now at war with four harmless, tiny nations. The last president to reject war was JFK, who did it multiple times during his administration. In fact, JFK may be the ONLY sitting president who rejected the call to war. That's one of the main reasons I still admire him so much.

With the worst economy in our nation's history, a disastrous inequity between the haves and have nots, abysmal lack of jobs, and a crumbling infrastructure, the last thing we should be doing is enforcing our idea of "freedom" on other countries at the point of a gun. We have huge problems to address at home.

Hey Don, first off, there is no proper English spelling of the Gaddafi name, as it is Arabic, and you can spell it as it is pronounced, or spell it as I do, as Saif Gaddafi spelled it to establish his charities foundation, though I also spell it as it is being used in order to keep things consistent.

Gaddafi International Foundation for Charity Associations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Being American, we can spell it any way we want to, especially since we won the American Revolution against the British, and as I like to say, if we had lost, we'd all be speaking English.

If not an Amiercan, what nationality are you? And is it true that you are really a moderator?

I ask because twice in the past few posts you have called Americans "stupid," and wonder if that's the only word you can use to describe an entire nation of people or is it you just can't think of another word?

Yet, you ask a stupid question that can be easily answered if you try, but since you didn't even try, I take it you are the stupid one, or just trying to be American.

As your question as to the proper spelling of Gaddafi's name is one of the first that people ask when they first start learning about Gaddafi and Libyan history, I take it you are ignorant about it so, welcome to the revolution, as it is a very fascinating subject, especially as it is playing out in Libya.

To answer some of your questions about American democracy, you are right about the futility of the two-party system, and I hope the Libyans don't adopt the American model, as every country is different and requires different answers.

Nor do I perceive Gaddafi as a "boggyman," as that is Bin Laden and Al Qada, and like OBL Gaddai will soon be gone and a new "Boggyman" will have to be found.

Like all of those who argue against the UN/NATO bombing or US military involvement in Libya, you take these efforts out of the context of the current democratic revolution sweeping two major regions of the world - North Africa and the Middle East, sparked by the self-immolation of Mohamid Bouazizi in Tunisia in December, 2010. The relatively peaceful and non-violent revolution in Tunisia lasted only 18 days before they affected the removal of their resident dictator, and that success sparked the non-violent revolt in Egypt that took 28 days to oust their tyrant. 300 people were killed by state security forces in each country.

By February, the revolution sparked by Bouazizi quickly spread to Bahrain, Yeman and Syria and I suspected it would hit Libya, where I have been engaged in direct negotiations with the Libyan government and the Gaddafi family for nearly a decade now.

When I recognized that the revolutions were going to have a major impact on politics and history, I started a thread on this forum, and began a blog, Revolutionary Program, the purpose of which was to try to identify the dictators in each country, their resources and order of battle, and the opposition lined up against them, using a sports game program as a model. You can't follow the game without knowing who the players are and their position, uniform numbers, strengths, weaknesses, tactics and strategies.

Revolutionary Program

Once things got going in Libya however, I realized I couldn't keep up with all the scores from around the league, as there were too many battles going on at the same time, so I have sort of just focused on the situation in Libya, which I know best.

Remember the Intrepid

While you are right that Americans should not be in Iraq or Afghanistan, and I opposed those invasions, you are wrong that America has no interests in Tunisia or Libya, as there is a major American military cemetery in Tunisia and Americans have been fighting tyrants in Tripoli since 1800, and will continue to fight them as long as they kill innocent people who try to exercise their basic rights.

Americans can't do that in countries like Syira, we do have a stake at what happens in Tunisia and Libya, as Americans have fought and died there for centuries.

Now you might have had a change in opinion on President Obama, he has stated that the US has no strategic interests in Libya, does not use and has not imported any Libyan oil since the 60s, and will not have "boots on the ground" troops there, while at the same time doing what is necessary to support the rebels who claim to be fighting for the same things that they fought the American Revolution for - personal liberty, economic freedom, justice and democracy.

Whether or not these ideals are worth fighting for is a matter taken up by the young men and women of Libya today, and the President, like Hillary, McCain, myself and others who believe that certain ideals are worth fighting for, support the revolutionaries in every country, as they are clearly the good guys.

Bill Kelly - Another stupid Yank.

Edited by William Kelly
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Bill,

No one called you, or anyone else, stupid. I referred to the American people collectively that way. I'm sorry- in a time of desperate economic crisis, movies like Hangover 2 make 200 million dollars. That's just one of many examples. We have become an idiocracy.

Yes, I am a moderator. Again, no secret. I don't get involved a lot, because I don't believe in restricting debate unless it gets really, really bad.

I wasn't critiquing you specifically about this boogeyman's name. Everyone in the msm now calls him Ghaddafi with a hard "G," whereas before they always called him Quaddafi with a "K" sound. I just made an observation which I think has some relevance.

Btw, did you know that Al-Queda is now on the side of truth and justice? According to the msm, they are fighting against Quaddafi. How does that work? Isn't this "war on terror" supposed to be against them? I can't believe anyone can defend what we're doing in Libya, or anywhere else. Our own country is falling apart completely, and all we can do is kill people on the other side of the world, who have done absolutely nothing to us. You don't advise your neighbors on how to take care of their house, when the roof is falling in on your own home.

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Bill,

No one called you, or anyone else, stupid. I referred to the American people collectively that way. I'm sorry- in a time of desperate economic crisis, movies like Hangover 2 make 200 million dollars. That's just one of many examples. We have become an idiocracy.

Yes, I am a moderator. Again, no secret. I don't get involved a lot, because I don't believe in restricting debate unless it gets really, really bad.

I wasn't critiquing you specifically about this boogeyman's name. Everyone in the msm now calls him Ghaddafi with a hard "G," whereas before they always called him Quaddafi with a "K" sound. I just made an observation which I think has some relevance.

Btw, did you know that Al-Queda is now on the side of truth and justice? According to the msm, they are fighting against Quaddafi. How does that work? Isn't this "war on terror" supposed to be against them? I can't believe anyone can defend what we're doing in Libya, or anywhere else. Our own country is falling apart completely, and all we can do is kill people on the other side of the world, who have done absolutely nothing to us. You don't advise your neighbors on how to take care of their house, when the roof is falling in on your own home.

See, you are right about Americans being stupid.

If you knew anything about Libya or Gaddafi, or al -Queda for that matter, you would know that Gaddafi and Bin Laden hated each other and tried to kill each other, and Libya put a warrant out for Bin Laden before most Americans even knew he existed.

What are "We" doing in Libya? Giving them $25 mill in non-lethal aid?

NATO, at the request of USA and the citizens of Libya themselves, requested help in stopping the massacre of Libyans by Gaddafi's troops. The USA isn't doing anything in Libya at the moment, though I believe that is one fight that we should be in on, as the bullies and tyrants must be stopped by an equal or greater force, and the Libyan people can't to it themselves, any more than Americans, after seven years of fighting the Brits, couldn't beat their army at Yorktown without the help of the French navy.

How is it that Gaddafi hasn't done anything to us? You don't count the bombing of the German disco to kill Americans, or the bombing of the plane over Lockerbie?

When he was against Bin Laden and gave up WMD, he suddenly became the friend of the American government, he was Bush's guy, but now that he has violently suppressed those who dissented, as he has always done, the USA policy of support for the rebels is the correct one, and we should do everything possible to support them, including putting small units of special forces on the ground if necessary and to achieve specific missions.

The Libyans can build any kind of house they want to, and the President said that it is up to the Libyan people to get rid of Gaddafi and create a new government, and if they choose democracy and open economy and freedom over tyranny and Islamic republic, then we will help them, as we should.

And if we don't then al-Queda will help them and they could become worse than they were under Gaddafi.

You are the perfect example of the typical American you talk about, with strong opinions on subjects about which you know nothing.

We are indeed allowed to believe anything and know nothing.

The current revolution in North Africa and Middle East is the most significant event to occur since 9/11, and how we respond to it differently in each country will determine what the world will be like for the next two or three decades, maybe even the next century, so what happens next will be extremely important.

Bill Kelly

Edited by William Kelly
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Bill,

I do know that we have no national interest in Libya. I do know that we bombed Libya under Reagan, killing his small daughter, and then the guy kind of disappeared for a few decades. If another country bombed our White House, and killed Obama's daughter, how would we feel about that? Who would best be descibed as a "bully" in that case? I guess he stopped killing and torturing or something. All of a sudden, now he is the #1 boogeyman again. Well, with Bin Laden gone, someone has to be.

Our foreign interventionism has done nothing but make us even more enemies around the world. We've done nothing but intervene in small countries for decades now. Again, the last president to buck that trend was JFK, who was not going to go along with the plan for Viet Nam. If we're so worried about standing up against tyranny, and helping revolutions around the world, why haven't we ever stood up to a really powerful, totalitarian nation like China? Why didn't we ever try and invade the Soviet Union? Surely they did more bad things than Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan and Yemen have combined. Maybe because the Chinese and Soviets were capable of fighting back?

We are not the world's policeman- we are the world's bully. Always ready to bomb and occupy small countries who cannot possibly fight back. Hey, maybe Grenada is piling up "stockpiles" of weapons or something. Maybe Kosovo needs our "assistance" again. I don't know how you can justify our reprehensible actions around the world.

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The far-right extremists of NATO at work:

The Sorman Massacre

For once, Thierry Meyssan is not offering us a clinical analysis of geo-political developments. He is reporting on facts that he witnessed firsthand: the story of his friend, Engineer Khaled K. Al-Hamedi. A story of horror and blood where NATO embodies the comeback of barbarism.

Voltaire Network, Tripoli (Libye), 3 July 2011

http://www.voltairenet.org/The-Sorman-massacre

It was a family celebration, the Libyan way. Everyone had gathered to celebrate the third birthday of little Al-Khweldy. The grand-parents, the brothers and sisters and cousins were crowding inside the family house located in Sorman, 70 Kms West of the capital: a big garden where small houses had been built for the various members of the family, plain, one-floor houses.

No big luxury, just the simplicity of desert people. A quiet and harmonious atmosphere. The grand-father, Marshall Al-Khweldy Al-Hamedi, used to raise birds here. - He is a hero of the Revolution who took part in the overthrow of the monarchy and in his country’s liberation from colonial exploitation. All are very proud of him. - The son, Khaled Al-Hamedi, President of IOPCR, one of the most important Arab humaitarian associations, used to raise does. About thirty children were running around among the animals.

They were also preparing the wedding of his brother Mohammed, gone to the front lines to fight against NATO-trained foreign mercenaries. The ceremony was to take place here in a few days’ time. His fiancee was already beaming.

Nobody noticed that, among the guests, a spy had sneaked in. He was pretending to twitter his friends. In reality, he had just marked the targets and was relaying them through the social network at NATO Headquarters.

The next day, during the night of 19 to 20 June 2011, at around 2.30 am, Khaled went back home after having visited and assisted compatriots who had fled the Alliance’s bombings. He was close enough to his house to hear the hissing of missiles and their explosions.

NATO fired eight of them, of 900 kilos each. The spy had placed markers in each house, including the children’s bedrooms. The missiles were dropped a few seconds apart. The grand-parents had time to get out of their house before it was destroyed. It was already too late to rescue the children and grand-children. When the last missile hit their house, the Marshall had the instinctive reaction to shield his wife with his body. They had just stepped out of the door when they were flung fifteen meters away by an explosion. But they survived.

When Khaled arrived, there was only devastation. His wife, whom he loved so much, and the child she was bearing were gone. His children, for whom he would have given anything, were crushed by the explosions and collapsing ceilings.

The houses were left in ruins. Twelve mutilated bodies were lying under the rubble. The does, hit by fragments, were agonising in their pen.

The neighbours who rushed to their rescue silently searched through the debris for any sign of life. Unfortunately, there was no hope. The children didn’t stand a chance of escaping the missiles. The corpse of a beheaded child is extracted. The grand-father is reciting verses of the Coran. His voice is firm, he does not cry. His pain is too strong.

Meanwhile, in Brussels, NATO spokespersons declared to have bombed the headquarters of pro-Ghaddafi militia in order to protect the civilian population from the tyrant who is repressing it.

It is not known how the whole thing was planned by the targets committee, nor how the chiefs of NATO’s general staff followed the unfolding of the operation. What is clear is that the Atlantic Alliance, with its spruced-up generals and right-thinking diplomats, has decided to murder the chidren of Libyan leaders to break their psychological resistance.

Since the XIIIth century, European theologists and jurists have prohibited the assassination of families. Only the mafia has broken this absolute taboo. The mafia and now NATO.

On 1st July, when 1.7 million people were demonstrating in Tripoli to defend their country against foreign aggression, Khaled went to the front to bring relief to refugees and the injured. Snipers were waiting for him. They tried to kill him. He was seriously injured; however, according to the doctors, his life is no longer in danger.

NATO’s dirty work is not yet finished.

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