Did the limo stop? Really?

[Pat Speer]

A bullet may travel beyond the capacity of a camera to capure it in flight, but bones, blood and brains are a different story, and not seeing them exiting the back of Kennedy's head really bothers me-- bigtime.

The bone frags seen 7 to 9 feet in the air above the limo were the slower moving pieces and had the camera's shutter of operated a fraction of a frame later - they may not have been seen at all. Keep in mind that frame Z313 is only a picture of a moment in time.

As far as how fast the speed of brain matter and other debris travels along the bullets path ... you might have to consult an expert like did. That debris traveled fast enough that when Hargis was hit with it - he thought he had been shot.

Bill, I agree with you about Hargis. Now you might be better able to inform me, but I read somewhere that ITEK concluded that no debris exists exiting the back of Kennedy's head is in evidence in 313. Of course this has been my point from the beginning: that the absence of any evidence of blowout to the back in that frame is an impossibility. It doesn't take an expert to know that some material would blast out quickly, but not all, and not invisibly. Some might be missed by the camera, but if we take McClelland's estimate that a third or so of the right posterior cerebral and some cerebellar tissue had been blased out, your would have to say it was all gone from the camera's view-- all trace of it--in a very small fraction of a second--certainly a small fraction of the 1/18 of a second the shutter is open. This would have made Toni Foster's remark: "The spray went behind him" an impossibility. Before she could even comprehend what had happened, the spray would be gone, and all she would see is back splatter.

I am given to understand that the brain traumatized by the bullet becomes soft and jelly-like (Jenkins in ITYOH p. 81). I can't imagine supersonic soft and jelly-like brains being missed by the camera. I think your expert either believes there was no ejecta out of the back of the head, or is just plain mistaken. That there would be no lingering evidence of such a blowout is incomprehensible to me, and defies all common sense. Not all of the brain is in the path of the bullet; the brain further removed from the path would presumably leave the head in time to be captured by the camera.

I don't know how it was done, but the blood and brains exiting the back of the head was removed from the extant film. This makes infinitely more sense to this reader. Ask your expert about my comments, and her (if it is Sherry) response. Thanks in advance, Daniel

I looked around for Sherry's more recent essays, in which she proposed the bullet was fired from the south knoll. As I recalled she'd proposed that the bullet clipped off the top right side of the head, and did not explode from the middle of the back of the head. But I couldn't find it.

I did find, however, Sherry's much earlier essay on the blood evidence, archived, strangely enough, on Ken Rahn's LN site. So what's up with that, Bill? Did Deb and Sherry have a falling-out? Or am I being lame? I mean, Sherry's stuff used to be all over Lancer, and now I can't find it.

Here is how Sherry dealt with the forward spatter issue in that original essay. It is as Bill said. She claimed the blood droplets traveled too fast.

Why isn't all the forward and back spatter pattern shown on the Zapruder film?

The Zapruder film was recording action 18 frames per second. A regular video tape records at 30 frames per second. The patterns are created, from the first action to the last, in 5 frames. This means the blood droplets are moving faster than they can be captured on the Zapruder film. Two of the Zapruder frames do display high velocity impact spatter which seems to be appropriate when you consider the ratio of the pattern movement and the frame speed of each of the videos.

Remember to consider what was found on the scene, and do not become locked in on the evidence on the Zapruder film as the only bloodstain evidence available for consideration.

This neglects, of course, that virtually all conspiracy theorists proposing the back of the head exploded propose that BONE and brain matter exploded back toward Hargis, as well as blood.

Speaking of Hargis... While one of his early statements has been used ad nauseum to suggest the back of JFK's head exploded, HE made clear on numerous occasions that HE saw no such thing.

From patspeer.com, chapter 5b:

Bobby W. Hargis rode to the right of Martin and to the left of Mrs. Kennedy. (11-22-63 article in Dallas Times-Herald) “About halfway down between Houston and the underpass I heard the first shot. It sounded like a real loud firecracker. When I heard the sound, the first thing I thought about was a gunshot. I looked around and about then Governor Connally turned around and looked at the President with a real surprised look on his face…The President bent over to hear what the Governor had to say. When he raised back up was when the President got shot…I felt blood hit me in the face…I racked (parked) my motorcycle and jumped off. I ran to the North side of Elm to see if I could find where the bullets were coming from. I don’t think the President was hit with the first shot….I felt that the Governor was shot first. (11-23-63 UPI article found in the Fresno Bee) “I saw flesh flying after the shot, and the president’s hair flew up,” Hargis said, “I knew he was dead.” (11-24-63 article in the New York Sunday News) "We turned left onto Elm St. off Houston, about a half block from where it happened. I was right alongside the rear fender on the left side of the President's car, near Mrs. Kennedy. When I heard the first explosion, I knew it was a shot. I thought that Gov. Connally had been hit when I saw him turn toward the President with a real surprised look. The President then looked like he was bent over or that he was leaning toward the Governor, talking to him. As the President straightened back up, Mrs. Kennedy turned toward him, and that was when he got hit in the side of his head, spinning it around. I was splattered with blood. Then I felt something hit me. It could have been concrete or something, but I thought at first I might have been hit. Then I saw the limousine stop, and I parked my motorcycle at the side of the road, got off and drew my gun. Then this Secret Service agent (in the President's car) got his wits about him and they took off. The motorcycle officer on the right side of the car was Jim Chaney. He immediately went forward and announced to the chief that the President had been shot." (4-3-64 testimony before the Warren Commission, 6H293-296): “I was next to Mrs. Kennedy when I heard the first shot, and at that time the President bent over, and Governor Connally turned around. He was sitting directly in front of him, and (had) a real shocked and surprised expression on his face…I thought Governor Connally had been shot first, but it looked like the President was bending over to hear what he had to say, and I thought to myself then that Governor Connally, the Governor had been hit, and then as the President raised back up like that the shot that killed him hit him.” (When asked about the blood) "when President Kennedy straightened back up in the car the bullet him in the head, the one that killed him and it seemed like his head exploded, and I was splattered with blood and brain, and kind of bloody water, It wasn't really blood. And at that time the Presidential car slowed down..." (When asked about the source of the shots) "Well, at the time it sounded like the shots were right next to me. There wasn't any way in the world I could tell where they were coming from, but at the time there was something in my head that said that they probably could have been coming from the railroad overpass, because I thought since I had got splattered, with blood--I was just a little back and left of--just a little bit back and left of Mrs. Kennedy, but I didn't know. I had a feeling that it might have been from the Texas Book Depository, and these two places was the primary place that could have been shot from."

(8-7-68 interview with Tom Bethel and Al Oser, NARA #180-10096-10005) (When discussing how he could have been sprayed with blood, if the shot came from behind) "Well, that right there is what I've wondered about all along, but see there's ah -- you've got to take into consideration we were moving at the time, and when he got hit all that stuff went like this, and of course I run through it." (When discussing his interpretation of the direction of the shots) "Well, like I say, being that we know that the shot came from the School Book Depository, right then it was kind of hard to say what run through your mind. You know you pick up these little things. You don't know why you do it. You don't know why you do 'em, you just do 'em. It's just kind of instinct. But I had in my mind the shots you couldn't tell where they was coming, but it seemed like the motion of the President's head or his body and the splatter had hit me, it seemed like both the locations needed investigating, and that's why I investigated them. But you couldn't tell, there was -- it looked like a million windows on the Book Depository.You couldn't tell exactly if there was anyone in there with a gun." (When asked if the shots could have come from anywhere) "Uh huh. That's correct." (When asked if he saw the President's head jerk as a response to a bullet's impact) "Yes. Uh huh...To the left forward. Kind of that way...I couldn't see what part of it got hit...If he'd got hit in the rear, I'd have been able to see it. All I saw was just a splash come out on the other side." (Interview with NBC broadcast on the 1988 program That Day In November) "It sounded like a firecracker to me and I thought 'Oh Lord, let it be a firecracker. And it looked like the President was bending over, forward. And then when he raised back up is when that second shot hit him in the head." (1995 interview with Clint Bradford, reported online) "When [JFK] was shot in the head, it splashed up, and I ran into all that brain matter and all that. It came up and down, all over my uniform." (6-26-95 interview, posted on Youtube by Gil Jesus) "There was not three shots; there was only two. I only heard two...The facts was there was two shots--one that hit him in the back and one that hit him in the head. And the one that hit him in the head just busted his head wide open." (November 1998 interview with Texas Monthly) “About ten seconds after we made that left-hand turn, that first shot rang out…I remember Kennedy leaned forward to listen to what he had to say. And then when he raised back up, that second shot hit him in the head. But we figured out that he had got shot—that first bullet had gone through the upper part of his back, well through the seat, and hit Connally’s wrist and glanced off and went into his thigh.” (Interview from an 11-22-03 WBAP radio program found on Youtube) "Yeah I looked toward the President and I thought maybe John Connally was hit because he turned around to look at the President. He had a real surprised look on his face. Kennedy was bending over like he was listening to what Connally had to say. When he raised back up, that second shot hit him in the head. That's what killed him, There was only two shots fired." (11-22-03 article in the Dallas Morning News) “Hargis differs with the Warren Commission and most eyewitnesses, insisting that only two shots were fired. With the first, “a thousand million things went through my mind,” he says. After the last, “there was a plume of blood and brains and plasma. It was just like a fog, and I ran right through it.”

Edited June 10, 2011 by Pat Speer

[Daniel Gallup]

I looked around for Sherry's more recent essays, in which she proposed the bullet was fired from the south knoll. As I recalled she'd proposed that the bullet clipped off the top right side of the head, and did not explode from the middle of the back of the head. But I couldn't find it.

I did find, however, Sherry's much earlier essay on the blood evidence, archived, strangely enough, on Ken Rahn's LN site. So what's up with that, Bill? Did Deb and Sherry have a falling-out? Or am I being lame? I mean, Sherry's stuff used to be all over Lancer, and now I can't find it.

Here is how Sherry dealt with the forward spatter issue in that original essay. It is as Bill said. She claimed the blood droplets traveled too fast.

Why isn't all the forward and back spatter pattern shown on the Zapruder film?

The Zapruder film was recording action 18 frames per second. A regular video tape records at 30 frames per second. The patterns are created, from the first action to the last, in 5 frames. This means the blood droplets are moving faster than they can be captured on the Zapruder film. Two of the Zapruder frames do display high velocity impact spatter which seems to be appropriate when you consider the ratio of the pattern movement and the frame speed of each of the videos.

Remember to consider what was found on the scene, and do not become locked in on the evidence on the Zapruder film as the only bloodstain evidence available for consideration.

This neglects, of course, that virtually all conspiracy theorists proposing the back of the head exploded propose that BONE and brain matter exploded back toward Hargis, as well as blood.

Speaking of Hargis... While one of his early statements has been used ad nauseum to suggest the back of JFK's head exploded, HE made clear on numerous occasions that HE saw no such thing.

From patspeer.com, chapter 5b:

Bobby W. Hargis rode to the right of Martin and to the left of Mrs. Kennedy. (11-22-63 article in Dallas Times-Herald) “About halfway down between Houston and the underpass I heard the first shot. It sounded like a real loud firecracker. When I heard the sound, the first thing I thought about was a gunshot. I looked around and about then Governor Connally turned around and looked at the President with a real surprised look on his face…The President bent over to hear what the Governor had to say. When he raised back up was when the President got shot…I felt blood hit me in the face…I racked (parked) my motorcycle and jumped off. I ran to the North side of Elm to see if I could find where the bullets were coming from. I don’t think the President was hit with the first shot….I felt that the Governor was shot first. (11-23-63 UPI article found in the Fresno Bee) “I saw flesh flying after the shot, and the president’s hair flew up,” Hargis said, “I knew he was dead.” (11-24-63 article in the New York Sunday News) "We turned left onto Elm St. off Houston, about a half block from where it happened. I was right alongside the rear fender on the left side of the President's car, near Mrs. Kennedy. When I heard the first explosion, I knew it was a shot. I thought that Gov. Connally had been hit when I saw him turn toward the President with a real surprised look. The President then looked like he was bent over or that he was leaning toward the Governor, talking to him. As the President straightened back up, Mrs. Kennedy turned toward him, and that was when he got hit in the side of his head, spinning it around. I was splattered with blood. Then I felt something hit me. It could have been concrete or something, but I thought at first I might have been hit. Then I saw the limousine stop, and I parked my motorcycle at the side of the road, got off and drew my gun. Then this Secret Service agent (in the President's car) got his wits about him and they took off. The motorcycle officer on the right side of the car was Jim Chaney. He immediately went forward and announced to the chief that the President had been shot." (4-3-64 testimony before the Warren Commission, 6H293-296): “I was next to Mrs. Kennedy when I heard the first shot, and at that time the President bent over, and Governor Connally turned around. He was sitting directly in front of him, and (had) a real shocked and surprised expression on his face…I thought Governor Connally had been shot first, but it looked like the President was bending over to hear what he had to say, and I thought to myself then that Governor Connally, the Governor had been hit, and then as the President raised back up like that the shot that killed him hit him.” (When asked about the blood) "when President Kennedy straightened back up in the car the bullet him in the head, the one that killed him and it seemed like his head exploded, and I was splattered with blood and brain, and kind of bloody water, It wasn't really blood. And at that time the Presidential car slowed down..." (When asked about the source of the shots) "Well, at the time it sounded like the shots were right next to me. There wasn't any way in the world I could tell where they were coming from, but at the time there was something in my head that said that they probably could have been coming from the railroad overpass, because I thought since I had got splattered, with blood--I was just a little back and left of--just a little bit back and left of Mrs. Kennedy, but I didn't know. I had a feeling that it might have been from the Texas Book Depository, and these two places was the primary place that could have been shot from."

(8-7-68 interview with Tom Bethel and Al Oser, NARA #180-10096-10005) (When discussing how he could have been sprayed with blood, if the shot came from behind) "Well, that right there is what I've wondered about all along, but see there's ah -- you've got to take into consideration we were moving at the time, and when he got hit all that stuff went like this, and of course I run through it." (When discussing his interpretation of the direction of the shots) "Well, like I say, being that we know that the shot came from the School Book Depository, right then it was kind of hard to say what run through your mind. You know you pick up these little things. You don't know why you do it. You don't know why you do 'em, you just do 'em. It's just kind of instinct. But I had in my mind the shots you couldn't tell where they was coming, but it seemed like the motion of the President's head or his body and the splatter had hit me, it seemed like both the locations needed investigating, and that's why I investigated them. But you couldn't tell, there was -- it looked like a million windows on the Book Depository.You couldn't tell exactly if there was anyone in there with a gun." (When asked if the shots could have come from anywhere) "Uh huh. That's correct." (When asked if he saw the President's head jerk as a response to a bullet's impact) "Yes. Uh huh...To the left forward. Kind of that way...I couldn't see what part of it got hit...If he'd got hit in the rear, I'd have been able to see it. All I saw was just a splash come out on the other side." (Interview with NBC broadcast on the 1988 program That Day In November) "It sounded like a firecracker to me and I thought 'Oh Lord, let it be a firecracker. And it looked like the President was bending over, forward. And then when he raised back up is when that second shot hit him in the head." (1995 interview with Clint Bradford, reported online) "When [JFK] was shot in the head, it splashed up, and I ran into all that brain matter and all that. It came up and down, all over my uniform." (6-26-95 interview, posted on Youtube by Gil Jesus) "There was not three shots; there was only two. I only heard two...The facts was there was two shots--one that hit him in the back and one that hit him in the head. And the one that hit him in the head just busted his head wide open." (November 1998 interview with Texas Monthly) “About ten seconds after we made that left-hand turn, that first shot rang out…I remember Kennedy leaned forward to listen to what he had to say. And then when he raised back up, that second shot hit him in the head. But we figured out that he had got shot—that first bullet had gone through the upper part of his back, well through the seat, and hit Connally’s wrist and glanced off and went into his thigh.” (Interview from an 11-22-03 WBAP radio program found on Youtube) "Yeah I looked toward the President and I thought maybe John Connally was hit because he turned around to look at the President. He had a real surprised look on his face. Kennedy was bending over like he was listening to what Connally had to say. When he raised back up, that second shot hit him in the head. That's what killed him, There was only two shots fired." (11-22-03 article in the Dallas Morning News) “Hargis differs with the Warren Commission and most eyewitnesses, insisting that only two shots were fired. With the first, “a thousand million things went through my mind,” he says. After the last, “there was a plume of blood and brains and plasma. It was just like a fog, and I ran right through it.”

Thanks for the posting, Pat. Much food for thought. Best, Daniel

[Robin Unger]

Hargis seems to be contradicting himself on two points.

First he says the Limo Stopped

Then he says the Limo Slowed Down

He thought the head shot had come from the railway overpass

and at the same time he says he thinks the shot came from the TSBD

Quote:

Bobby W. Hargis rode to the right of Martin and to the left of Mrs. Kennedy. (11-22-63 article in Dallas Times-Herald) “About halfway down between Houston and the underpass I heard the first shot. It sounded like a real loud firecracker. When I heard the sound, the first thing I thought about was a gunshot. I looked around and about then Governor Connally turned around and looked at the President with a real surprised look on his face…The President bent over to hear what the Governor had to say. When he raised back up was when the President got shot…I felt blood hit me in the face…I racked (parked) my motorcycle and jumped off. I ran to the North side of Elm to see if I could find where the bullets were coming from. I don’t think the President was hit with the first shot….I felt that the Governor was shot first. (11-23-63 UPI article found in the Fresno Bee) “I saw flesh flying after the shot, and the president’s hair flew up,” Hargis said, “I knew he was dead.” (11-24-63 article in the New York Sunday News) "We turned left onto Elm St. off Houston, about a half block from where it happened. I was right alongside the rear fender on the left side of the President's car, near Mrs. Kennedy. When I heard the first explosion, I knew it was a shot. I thought that Gov. Connally had been hit when I saw him turn toward the President with a real surprised look. The President then looked like he was bent over or that he was leaning toward the Governor, talking to him. As the President straightened back up, Mrs. Kennedy turned toward him, and that was when he got hit in the side of his head, spinning it around. I was splattered with blood. Then I felt something hit me. It could have been concrete or something, but I thought at first I might have been hit.

Then I saw the limousine stop, and I parked my motorcycle at the side of the road, got off and drew my gun. Then this Secret Service agent (in the President's car) got his wits about him and they took off.

The motorcycle officer on the right side of the car was Jim Chaney. He immediately went forward and announced to the chief that the President had been shot." (4-3-64 testimony before the Warren Commission, 6H293-296): “I was next to Mrs. Kennedy when I heard the first shot, and at that time the President bent over, and Governor Connally turned around. He was sitting directly in front of him, and (had) a real shocked and surprised expression on his face…I thought Governor Connally had been shot first, but it looked like the President was bending over to hear what he had to say, and I thought to myself then that Governor Connally, the Governor had been hit, and then as the President raised back up like that the shot that killed him hit him.” (When asked about the blood) "when President Kennedy straightened back up in the car the bullet him in the head, the one that killed him and it seemed like his head exploded, and I was splattered with blood and brain, and kind of bloody water, It wasn't really blood.

And at that time the Presidential car slowed down..." (When asked about the source of the shots) "Well, at the time it sounded like the shots were right next to me. There wasn't any way in the world I could tell where they were coming from, but at the time there was something in my head that said that they probably could have been coming from the railroad overpass, because I thought since I had got splattered, with blood--I was just a little back and left of--just a little bit back and left of Mrs. Kennedy, but I didn't know. I had a feeling that it might have been from the Texas Book Depository, and these two places was the primary place that could have been shot from."

Hargis also said.

Jim Chaney. He immediately went forward and announced to the chief that the President had been shot

And yet in McIntire 1

The Limo is in the process of overtaking the lead car driven by Curry ( CHIEF )

and we see Chaney's motorcycle is only just coming out from under the Overpass.

Eventually Chaney may have caught up with Chief Curry in the lead car, but by then Curry would have already seen the limo go passed him on his right.

[Robin Unger]

McLain, Hargis, Courson in Bond 4

McLain, Courson in Cancellare 1

[Daniel Gallup]

Hargis seems to be contradicting himself on two points.

First he says the Limo Stopped

Then he says the Limo Slowed Down

He thought the head shot had come from the railway overpass

and at the same time he says he thinks the shot came from the TSBD

Quote:

Bobby W. Hargis rode to the right of Martin and to the left of Mrs. Kennedy. (11-22-63 article in Dallas Times-Herald) “About halfway down between Houston and the underpass I heard the first shot. It sounded like a real loud firecracker. When I heard the sound, the first thing I thought about was a gunshot. I looked around and about then Governor Connally turned around and looked at the President with a real surprised look on his face…The President bent over to hear what the Governor had to say. When he raised back up was when the President got shot…I felt blood hit me in the face…I racked (parked) my motorcycle and jumped off. I ran to the North side of Elm to see if I could find where the bullets were coming from. I don’t think the President was hit with the first shot….I felt that the Governor was shot first. (11-23-63 UPI article found in the Fresno Bee) “I saw flesh flying after the shot, and the president’s hair flew up,” Hargis said, “I knew he was dead.” (11-24-63 article in the New York Sunday News) "We turned left onto Elm St. off Houston, about a half block from where it happened. I was right alongside the rear fender on the left side of the President's car, near Mrs. Kennedy. When I heard the first explosion, I knew it was a shot. I thought that Gov. Connally had been hit when I saw him turn toward the President with a real surprised look. The President then looked like he was bent over or that he was leaning toward the Governor, talking to him. As the President straightened back up, Mrs. Kennedy turned toward him, and that was when he got hit in the side of his head, spinning it around. I was splattered with blood. Then I felt something hit me. It could have been concrete or something, but I thought at first I might have been hit.

Then I saw the limousine stop, and I parked my motorcycle at the side of the road, got off and drew my gun. Then this Secret Service agent (in the President's car) got his wits about him and they took off.

The motorcycle officer on the right side of the car was Jim Chaney. He immediately went forward and announced to the chief that the President had been shot." (4-3-64 testimony before the Warren Commission, 6H293-296): “I was next to Mrs. Kennedy when I heard the first shot, and at that time the President bent over, and Governor Connally turned around. He was sitting directly in front of him, and (had) a real shocked and surprised expression on his face…I thought Governor Connally had been shot first, but it looked like the President was bending over to hear what he had to say, and I thought to myself then that Governor Connally, the Governor had been hit, and then as the President raised back up like that the shot that killed him hit him.” (When asked about the blood) "when President Kennedy straightened back up in the car the bullet him in the head, the one that killed him and it seemed like his head exploded, and I was splattered with blood and brain, and kind of bloody water, It wasn't really blood.

And at that time the Presidential car slowed down..." (When asked about the source of the shots) "Well, at the time it sounded like the shots were right next to me. There wasn't any way in the world I could tell where they were coming from, but at the time there was something in my head that said that they probably could have been coming from the railroad overpass, because I thought since I had got splattered, with blood--I was just a little back and left of--just a little bit back and left of Mrs. Kennedy, but I didn't know. I had a feeling that it might have been from the Texas Book Depository, and these two places was the primary place that could have been shot from."

Hargis also said.

Jim Chaney. He immediately went forward and announced to the chief that the President had been shot

And yet in McIntire 1

The Limo is in the process of overtaking the lead car driven by Curry ( CHIEF )

and we see Chaney's motorcycle is only just coming out from under the Overpass.

Eventually Chaney may have caught up with Chief Curry in the lead car, but by then Curry would have already seen the limo go passed him on his right.

Robin, just for the sake of argument: Chaney rides ahead, tells Curry of the shooting as the Limo then speeds up and with Curry they hightail it out of there with Chaney behind since the three other motorcycle officers are already ahead with Curry. This would explain Hargis' claim of Chaney riding forward, the limo stop, and the McIntire picture. Posssible? Best, Daniel

[Robin Unger]

Hargis seems to be contradicting himself on two points.

First he says the Limo Stopped

Then he says the Limo Slowed Down

He thought the head shot had come from the railway overpass

and at the same time he says he thinks the shot came from the TSBD

Quote:

Bobby W. Hargis rode to the right of Martin and to the left of Mrs. Kennedy. (11-22-63 article in Dallas Times-Herald) "About halfway down between Houston and the underpass I heard the first shot. It sounded like a real loud firecracker. When I heard the sound, the first thing I thought about was a gunshot. I looked around and about then Governor Connally turned around and looked at the President with a real surprised look on his face…The President bent over to hear what the Governor had to say. When he raised back up was when the President got shot…I felt blood hit me in the face…I racked (parked) my motorcycle and jumped off. I ran to the North side of Elm to see if I could find where the bullets were coming from. I don't think the President was hit with the first shot….I felt that the Governor was shot first. (11-23-63 UPI article found in the Fresno Bee) "I saw flesh flying after the shot, and the president's hair flew up," Hargis said, "I knew he was dead." (11-24-63 article in the New York Sunday News) "We turned left onto Elm St. off Houston, about a half block from where it happened. I was right alongside the rear fender on the left side of the President's car, near Mrs. Kennedy. When I heard the first explosion, I knew it was a shot. I thought that Gov. Connally had been hit when I saw him turn toward the President with a real surprised look. The President then looked like he was bent over or that he was leaning toward the Governor, talking to him. As the President straightened back up, Mrs. Kennedy turned toward him, and that was when he got hit in the side of his head, spinning it around. I was splattered with blood. Then I felt something hit me. It could have been concrete or something, but I thought at first I might have been hit.

Then I saw the limousine stop, and I parked my motorcycle at the side of the road, got off and drew my gun. Then this Secret Service agent (in the President's car) got his wits about him and they took off.

The motorcycle officer on the right side of the car was Jim Chaney. He immediately went forward and announced to the chief that the President had been shot." (4-3-64 testimony before the Warren Commission, 6H293-296): "I was next to Mrs. Kennedy when I heard the first shot, and at that time the President bent over, and Governor Connally turned around. He was sitting directly in front of him, and (had) a real shocked and surprised expression on his face…I thought Governor Connally had been shot first, but it looked like the President was bending over to hear what he had to say, and I thought to myself then that Governor Connally, the Governor had been hit, and then as the President raised back up like that the shot that killed him hit him." (When asked about the blood) "when President Kennedy straightened back up in the car the bullet him in the head, the one that killed him and it seemed like his head exploded, and I was splattered with blood and brain, and kind of bloody water, It wasn't really blood.

And at that time the Presidential car slowed down..." (When asked about the source of the shots) "Well, at the time it sounded like the shots were right next to me. There wasn't any way in the world I could tell where they were coming from, but at the time there was something in my head that said that they probably could have been coming from the railroad overpass, because I thought since I had got splattered, with blood--I was just a little back and left of--just a little bit back and left of Mrs. Kennedy, but I didn't know. I had a feeling that it might have been from the Texas Book Depository, and these two places was the primary place that could have been shot from."

Hargis also said.

Jim Chaney. He immediately went forward and announced to the chief that the President had been shot

And yet in McIntire 1

The Limo is in the process of overtaking the lead car driven by Curry ( CHIEF )

and we see Chaney's motorcycle is only just coming out from under the Overpass.

Eventually Chaney may have caught up with Chief Curry in the lead car, but by then Curry would have already seen the limo go passed him on his right.

Robin, just for the sake of argument: Chaney rides ahead, tells Curry of the shooting as the Limo then speeds up and with Curry they hightail it out of there with Chaney behind since the three other motorcycle officers are already ahead with Curry. This would explain Hargis' claim of Chaney riding forward, the limo stop, and the McIntire picture. Posssible? Best, Daniel

The Bell film shows the lead car, the limo, and the follow up car going underneath the overpass.

No Chaney

The Daneil film shows the lead car, the limo, and the follow up car coming out from underneath the overpass.

No Chaney

Edited June 11, 2011 by Robin Unger

[Daniel Gallup]

Hargis seems to be contradicting himself on two points.

First he says the Limo Stopped

Then he says the Limo Slowed Down

He thought the head shot had come from the railway overpass

and at the same time he says he thinks the shot came from the TSBD

Quote:

Bobby W. Hargis rode to the right of Martin and to the left of Mrs. Kennedy. (11-22-63 article in Dallas Times-Herald) "About halfway down between Houston and the underpass I heard the first shot. It sounded like a real loud firecracker. When I heard the sound, the first thing I thought about was a gunshot. I looked around and about then Governor Connally turned around and looked at the President with a real surprised look on his face…The President bent over to hear what the Governor had to say. When he raised back up was when the President got shot…I felt blood hit me in the face…I racked (parked) my motorcycle and jumped off. I ran to the North side of Elm to see if I could find where the bullets were coming from. I don't think the President was hit with the first shot….I felt that the Governor was shot first. (11-23-63 UPI article found in the Fresno Bee) "I saw flesh flying after the shot, and the president's hair flew up," Hargis said, "I knew he was dead." (11-24-63 article in the New York Sunday News) "We turned left onto Elm St. off Houston, about a half block from where it happened. I was right alongside the rear fender on the left side of the President's car, near Mrs. Kennedy. When I heard the first explosion, I knew it was a shot. I thought that Gov. Connally had been hit when I saw him turn toward the President with a real surprised look. The President then looked like he was bent over or that he was leaning toward the Governor, talking to him. As the President straightened back up, Mrs. Kennedy turned toward him, and that was when he got hit in the side of his head, spinning it around. I was splattered with blood. Then I felt something hit me. It could have been concrete or something, but I thought at first I might have been hit.

Then I saw the limousine stop, and I parked my motorcycle at the side of the road, got off and drew my gun. Then this Secret Service agent (in the President's car) got his wits about him and they took off.

The motorcycle officer on the right side of the car was Jim Chaney. He immediately went forward and announced to the chief that the President had been shot." (4-3-64 testimony before the Warren Commission, 6H293-296): "I was next to Mrs. Kennedy when I heard the first shot, and at that time the President bent over, and Governor Connally turned around. He was sitting directly in front of him, and (had) a real shocked and surprised expression on his face…I thought Governor Connally had been shot first, but it looked like the President was bending over to hear what he had to say, and I thought to myself then that Governor Connally, the Governor had been hit, and then as the President raised back up like that the shot that killed him hit him." (When asked about the blood) "when President Kennedy straightened back up in the car the bullet him in the head, the one that killed him and it seemed like his head exploded, and I was splattered with blood and brain, and kind of bloody water, It wasn't really blood.

And at that time the Presidential car slowed down..." (When asked about the source of the shots) "Well, at the time it sounded like the shots were right next to me. There wasn't any way in the world I could tell where they were coming from, but at the time there was something in my head that said that they probably could have been coming from the railroad overpass, because I thought since I had got splattered, with blood--I was just a little back and left of--just a little bit back and left of Mrs. Kennedy, but I didn't know. I had a feeling that it might have been from the Texas Book Depository, and these two places was the primary place that could have been shot from."

Hargis also said.

Jim Chaney. He immediately went forward and announced to the chief that the President had been shot

And yet in McIntire 1

The Limo is in the process of overtaking the lead car driven by Curry ( CHIEF )

and we see Chaney's motorcycle is only just coming out from under the Overpass.

Eventually Chaney may have caught up with Chief Curry in the lead car, but by then Curry would have already seen the limo go passed him on his right.

Robin, just for the sake of argument: Chaney rides ahead, tells Curry of the shooting as the Limo then speeds up and with Curry they hightail it out of there with Chaney behind since the three other motorcycle officers are already ahead with Curry. This would explain Hargis' claim of Chaney riding forward, the limo stop, and the McIntire picture. Posssible? Best, Daniel

The Bell film shows the lead car, the limo, and the follow up car going underneath the overpass.

No Chaney

The Daneil film shows the lead car, the limo, and the follow up car coming out from underneath the overpass.

No Chaney

Is that Chaney in the Bell film, or Martin, or neither?-- Daniel

[Bernice Moore]

Daniel, will this gif that bill miller did for all, some time back showing debris out the back of JFK'S head help, there is another re nix when i can find it, i will post it for you..you must click it on to work, for some reason, ..b

Edited June 11, 2011 by Bernice Moore

[Robin Unger]

Hargis seems to be contradicting himself on two points.

First he says the Limo Stopped

Then he says the Limo Slowed Down

He thought the head shot had come from the railway overpass

and at the same time he says he thinks the shot came from the TSBD

Quote:

Bobby W. Hargis rode to the right of Martin and to the left of Mrs. Kennedy. (11-22-63 article in Dallas Times-Herald) "About halfway down between Houston and the underpass I heard the first shot. It sounded like a real loud firecracker. When I heard the sound, the first thing I thought about was a gunshot. I looked around and about then Governor Connally turned around and looked at the President with a real surprised look on his face…The President bent over to hear what the Governor had to say. When he raised back up was when the President got shot…I felt blood hit me in the face…I racked (parked) my motorcycle and jumped off. I ran to the North side of Elm to see if I could find where the bullets were coming from. I don't think the President was hit with the first shot….I felt that the Governor was shot first. (11-23-63 UPI article found in the Fresno Bee) "I saw flesh flying after the shot, and the president's hair flew up," Hargis said, "I knew he was dead." (11-24-63 article in the New York Sunday News) "We turned left onto Elm St. off Houston, about a half block from where it happened. I was right alongside the rear fender on the left side of the President's car, near Mrs. Kennedy. When I heard the first explosion, I knew it was a shot. I thought that Gov. Connally had been hit when I saw him turn toward the President with a real surprised look. The President then looked like he was bent over or that he was leaning toward the Governor, talking to him. As the President straightened back up, Mrs. Kennedy turned toward him, and that was when he got hit in the side of his head, spinning it around. I was splattered with blood. Then I felt something hit me. It could have been concrete or something, but I thought at first I might have been hit.

Then I saw the limousine stop, and I parked my motorcycle at the side of the road, got off and drew my gun. Then this Secret Service agent (in the President's car) got his wits about him and they took off.

The motorcycle officer on the right side of the car was Jim Chaney. He immediately went forward and announced to the chief that the President had been shot." (4-3-64 testimony before the Warren Commission, 6H293-296): "I was next to Mrs. Kennedy when I heard the first shot, and at that time the President bent over, and Governor Connally turned around. He was sitting directly in front of him, and (had) a real shocked and surprised expression on his face…I thought Governor Connally had been shot first, but it looked like the President was bending over to hear what he had to say, and I thought to myself then that Governor Connally, the Governor had been hit, and then as the President raised back up like that the shot that killed him hit him." (When asked about the blood) "when President Kennedy straightened back up in the car the bullet him in the head, the one that killed him and it seemed like his head exploded, and I was splattered with blood and brain, and kind of bloody water, It wasn't really blood.

And at that time the Presidential car slowed down..." (When asked about the source of the shots) "Well, at the time it sounded like the shots were right next to me. There wasn't any way in the world I could tell where they were coming from, but at the time there was something in my head that said that they probably could have been coming from the railroad overpass, because I thought since I had got splattered, with blood--I was just a little back and left of--just a little bit back and left of Mrs. Kennedy, but I didn't know. I had a feeling that it might have been from the Texas Book Depository, and these two places was the primary place that could have been shot from."

Hargis also said.

Jim Chaney. He immediately went forward and announced to the chief that the President had been shot

And yet in McIntire 1

The Limo is in the process of overtaking the lead car driven by Curry ( CHIEF )

and we see Chaney's motorcycle is only just coming out from under the Overpass.

Eventually Chaney may have caught up with Chief Curry in the lead car, but by then Curry would have already seen the limo go passed him on his right.

Robin, just for the sake of argument: Chaney rides ahead, tells Curry of the shooting as the Limo then speeds up and with Curry they hightail it out of there with Chaney behind since the three other motorcycle officers are already ahead with Curry. This would explain Hargis' claim of Chaney riding forward, the limo stop, and the McIntire picture. Posssible? Best, Daniel

The Bell film shows the lead car, the limo, and the follow up car going underneath the overpass.

No Chaney

The Daniel film shows the lead car, the limo, and the follow up car coming out from underneath the overpass.

No Chaney

Is that Chaney in the Bell film, or Martin, or neither?-- Daniel

That is Martin seen in the Bell and Daniel films

[Bernice Moore]

Hargis seems to be contradicting himself on two points.

First he says the Limo Stopped

Then he says the Limo Slowed Down

He thought the head shot had come from the railway overpass

and at the same time he says he thinks the shot came from the TSBD

Quote:

Bobby W. Hargis rode to the right of Martin and to the left of Mrs. Kennedy. (11-22-63 article in Dallas Times-Herald) "About halfway down between Houston and the underpass I heard the first shot. It sounded like a real loud firecracker. When I heard the sound, the first thing I thought about was a gunshot. I looked around and about then Governor Connally turned around and looked at the President with a real surprised look on his face…The President bent over to hear what the Governor had to say. When he raised back up was when the President got shot…I felt blood hit me in the face…I racked (parked) my motorcycle and jumped off. I ran to the North side of Elm to see if I could find where the bullets were coming from. I don't think the President was hit with the first shot….I felt that the Governor was shot first. (11-23-63 UPI article found in the Fresno Bee) "I saw flesh flying after the shot, and the president's hair flew up," Hargis said, "I knew he was dead." (11-24-63 article in the New York Sunday News) "We turned left onto Elm St. off Houston, about a half block from where it happened. I was right alongside the rear fender on the left side of the President's car, near Mrs. Kennedy. When I heard the first explosion, I knew it was a shot. I thought that Gov. Connally had been hit when I saw him turn toward the President with a real surprised look. The President then looked like he was bent over or that he was leaning toward the Governor, talking to him. As the President straightened back up, Mrs. Kennedy turned toward him, and that was when he got hit in the side of his head, spinning it around. I was splattered with blood. Then I felt something hit me. It could have been concrete or something, but I thought at first I might have been hit.

Then I saw the limousine stop, and I parked my motorcycle at the side of the road, got off and drew my gun. Then this Secret Service agent (in the President's car) got his wits about him and they took off.

The motorcycle officer on the right side of the car was Jim Chaney. He immediately went forward and announced to the chief that the President had been shot." (4-3-64 testimony before the Warren Commission, 6H293-296): "I was next to Mrs. Kennedy when I heard the first shot, and at that time the President bent over, and Governor Connally turned around. He was sitting directly in front of him, and (had) a real shocked and surprised expression on his face…I thought Governor Connally had been shot first, but it looked like the President was bending over to hear what he had to say, and I thought to myself then that Governor Connally, the Governor had been hit, and then as the President raised back up like that the shot that killed him hit him." (When asked about the blood) "when President Kennedy straightened back up in the car the bullet him in the head, the one that killed him and it seemed like his head exploded, and I was splattered with blood and brain, and kind of bloody water, It wasn't really blood.

And at that time the Presidential car slowed down..." (When asked about the source of the shots) "Well, at the time it sounded like the shots were right next to me. There wasn't any way in the world I could tell where they were coming from, but at the time there was something in my head that said that they probably could have been coming from the railroad overpass, because I thought since I had got splattered, with blood--I was just a little back and left of--just a little bit back and left of Mrs. Kennedy, but I didn't know. I had a feeling that it might have been from the Texas Book Depository, and these two places was the primary place that could have been shot from."

Hargis also said.

Jim Chaney. He immediately went forward and announced to the chief that the President had been shot

And yet in McIntire 1

The Limo is in the process of overtaking the lead car driven by Curry ( CHIEF )

and we see Chaney's motorcycle is only just coming out from under the Overpass.

Eventually Chaney may have caught up with Chief Curry in the lead car, but by then Curry would have already seen the limo go passed him on his right.

Robin, just for the sake of argument: Chaney rides ahead, tells Curry of the shooting as the Limo then speeds up and with Curry they hightail it out of there with Chaney behind since the three other motorcycle officers are already ahead with Curry. This would explain Hargis' claim of Chaney riding forward, the limo stop, and the McIntire picture. Posssible? Best, Daniel

The Bell film shows the lead car, the limo, and the follow up car going underneath the overpass.

No Chaney

The Daniel film shows the lead car, the limo, and the follow up car coming out from underneath the overpass.

No Chaney

Is that Chaney in the Bell film, or Martin, or neither?-- Daniel

That is Martin seen in the Bell and Daniel films

Robin did you notice on the penn jones print out, info, in the other thread on the official w/c pages info, there is no Chaney listed......???

Names of the motorcycle officers ( and apparently their numbers )

are given in Vol.XX, page 489, the three out front were Sgt.S.C. Bellah 190, J.B.Garrick 132, and G.C McBride 133, the five only half a block ahead of the President were, L.E Grey 156 E.D.Brewer 137 W.G.Lumpkin 152, and H.R.Freeman 135.Five of the Officers were instructed to fall to the rear at the underpass and cover the motorcade from the rear onto the Trade Mart . the burden for the trapping of the President falls , most likely on one of these five officers.

We have only talked to three policemen , but we always get the same answer,'' We have been instructed not to talk about it at all''...Simmons said he believed it was the motorcycle cop at the left front of the automobile who got in the way . and who made it appear''

this is from the other zap faked thread.no chaney.....b

Edited June 11, 2011 by Bernice Moore

[Robin Unger]

Martin is seen in the same position as he was in during the motorcade.

Riding to the rear of the Limo, near the curb with Hargis on his right next to the Limo.

Click on the image to read full size:

[Robin Unger]

Quote:

Robin did you notice on the penn jones print out, info, in the other thread on the official w/c pages info, there is no Chaney listed......???

I will have a look Bernice

Going by Trask's schematic above the mage below would show Chaney closest to the Limo, and Jackson on his right.

Edited June 13, 2011 by Robin Unger

[Bernice Moore]

Quote:

Robin did you notice on the penn jones print out, info, in the other thread on the official w/c pages info, there is no Chaney listed......???

I will have a look Bernice

Going by Trask's schematic above the mage below would show Chaney closest to the Limo, and Jackson on his right.

Jackson was the motorcycle rider who we see going wide during the turn from Houston to Elm in the zapruder film

great snap of hill, thanks..i found chaney...http://www.history-m...Vol20_0255a.htm chaney...page 489 w/c b

Edited June 12, 2011 by Bernice Moore

[Daniel Gallup]

Robin, just for the sake of argument: Chaney rides ahead, tells Curry of the shooting as the Limo then speeds up and with Curry they hightail it out of there with Chaney behind since the three other motorcycle officers are already ahead with Curry. This would explain Hargis' claim of Chaney riding forward, the limo stop, and the McIntire picture. Posssible? Best, Daniel

The Bell film shows the lead car, the limo, and the follow up car going underneath the overpass.

No Chaney

The Daneil film shows the lead car, the limo, and the follow up car coming out from underneath the overpass.

No Chaney

If Hargis is correct about Chaney, could Chaney be with Curry under the underpass in the shadows, and that is why he is not seen in the Bell film? It seems odd to me that except for that black and white you posted where the limo is well beyond the underpass and Curry underneath it, that we have no film showing Chaney's position in the way we have of Hargis and Martin. One might argue he was in the shadows under the underpass just as Hargis said. Would a lightening of the underpass area reveal anything? Just wondering, Daniel

[Bernice Moore]

Daniel, found the wee other nix gif, that shows matter being seen,flying out of his head.towards the back.....b

Edited June 11, 2011 by Bernice Moore