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How did Ruth Paine know the date the rifle shipped ?


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Waldman Exhibit 7 appears to show that the rifle was shipped to "A. Hidell, P.O.Box 2915 in Dallas on March 20, 1963.

Commission Exhibit 401 is a calendar owned by Ruth Paine. On the month of March for the year 1963, there is a star on the date of the 20th, with a notation at the top of the page noting that the star denotes "LHO purchase of rifle".

Ruth Paine testified that all of the handwriting on her calendar was hers.

Mr. JENNER. This will be the Commission Exhibit No. 401. Gentlemen for the purpose of identification of the exhibit, it is Mrs. Paine's calendar which she used in part as a diary and part to record prospective appointments and she surrendered it to the FBI. This is not merely a photostat, it is a picture taken with a camera of that calendar.

(Commission Exhibit No. 401 was marked for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. May I ask you a question or two about it Mrs. Paine. Did you not go through each of the pages of that calendar with me this morning?

Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I did.

Mr. JENNER. And I asked you, did I not, whether it was all in your handwriting?

Mrs. PAINE. You did.

Mr. JENNER. Except for the identification on the front, the officer who received it from you--he made a notation of the date of receipt--it is all in your handwriting?

Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.

( 2 H 434 )

So one needs to ask the question, how could Ruth Paine possibly know the date on which Klein's shipped the rifle ?

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IIRC she said she added that after LHO was arrested and the shipment became public knowledge. I think it was in her WC testimony.

The notation is marked "Oct. 23rd". I doubt she could have made that notation on November 23rd and been off by a month. Besides, Oswald "purchased" the rifle on the 12th, didn't he ?

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http://www.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back_issues/06th_Issue/misc.html

Michael Paine was a descendant of the Cabots on both sides. His cousin Thomas Dudley Cabot, former president of United Fruit, had offered their Gibraltar Steamship as a cover for the CIA during the Bay of Pigs. Another cousin was Alexander Cochrane Forbes, a director of United Fruit and trustee of Cabot, Cabot, and Forbes.

Both Allen Dulles and John J. McCloy were part of the United Fruit team. The Paine family had links with circles of the OSS and the CIA. Ruth Hyde Paine maintained close ties with the Forbes families. Peter Dale Scott investigated the Paines, ''the patrician Paine and Forbes families." A far cry from anybody's neighbor.

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I mean could she really screw up October and November, and then go back and backdate March 20th? For what reason would she do that?

Jim, this is what I'm saying. How could she write down the wrong month THE DAY AFTER THE ASSASSINATION ?

How does she get the right day and the wrong MONTH ?

ROFLMAO

Here's something else to consider:

Ruth Paine testified that she didn't know Oswald's middle name an hence his middle initial, until she had to fill out papers for Marina at Parkland Hopsital.

Mrs. PAINE. I might point out that I didn't know Lee had a middle name until I had occasion to fill out forms for Marina in Parkland Hospital.

( 9 H 359 )

Mrs. PAINE. I knew he had a middle name but only because I filled out forms in Parkland Hospital.

( 3 H 44 )

I assume that those forms were for the birth of the Oswalds' second daughter, Rachel, who was born on October 20, 1963.

So by her own testimony, Ruth Paine knew Oswald's middle initial by October 20th, meaning she COULD have made that entry on October 23rd.

Edited by Gil Jesus
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I mean could she really screw up October and November, and then go back and backdate March 20th? For what reason would she do that?

Jim, this is what I'm saying. How could she write down the wrong month THE DAY AFTER THE ASSASSINATION ?

How does she get the right day and the wrong MONTH ? [...]

I agree, guys. Looks like a feeble attempt on Ruth Paine's part to explain away her March 20th, 1963 calendar entry(s) which indicated that she knew that that was when LHO ordered (or had ordered?) the rifle. Very "fishy"....

--Thomas

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I mean could she really screw up October and November, and then go back and backdate March 20th? For what reason would she do that?

Jim, this is what I'm saying. How could she write down the wrong month THE DAY AFTER THE ASSASSINATION ?

How does she get the right day and the wrong MONTH ? [...]

I agree, guys. Looks like a feeble attempt on Ruth Paine's part to explain away her March 20th, 1963 calendar entry(s) which indicated that she knew that that was when LHO ordered (or had ordered?) the rifle. Very "fishy"....

--Thomas

I mean (to use a Jim DiEuginio phrase), why would it be so important to her as to when "LHO ordered the rifle" that she would go to the trouble to put the date on her calendar either at the time (March 20, 1963) or after the fact (in late November, 1963)? Why would she care, either way?

--Thomas

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Tom:

I think she is supposed to be saying that she backdated the calendar for the March date and made a mistake for the October one.

These are both hard to buy.

Jim,

That's exactly my point-- "They are both hard to buy." Also, why would LHO's supposed date of purchasing the rifle be important to her anyway???

--Thomas

Edited by Thomas Graves
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Tom:

I think she is supposed to be saying that she backdated the calendar for the March date and made a mistake for the October one.

These are both hard to buy.

Jim,

That's exactly my point-- "They are both hard to buy." Also, why would LHO's supposed date of purchasing the rifle be important to her anyway???

--Thomas

And it really was the SHIPPING date that she has... for both weapons... one ordered in Jan...one in March...

Ordered 3/12... rec'd 3/18, shipped 3/20.....

how could she possible know the SHIPPED date... unless she was the one who had gone to get the rifle from the PO... lol

DJ

EDIT:

Mr. JENNER - Now, I turn to March, and I direct your attention to the upper left-hand corner of that card, and it appears to me that in the upper left-hand corner are October 23, then a star, then "LHO" followed by the words "purchase of rifle." Would you explain those entries?

Mrs. PAINE - Yes. This was written after.

Mr. JENNER - After?

Mrs. PAINE - This was written indeed after the assassination.

Mr. JENNER - All right.

Mrs. PAINE - I heard on the television that he had purchased a rifle.

Mr. JENNER - When?

Mrs. PAINE - I heard it on November 23.

Mr. JENNER - Yes.

Mrs. PAINE - And went back to the page for March, put a little star on March 20 as being a small square, I couldn't fit in all I wanted to say. I just put in a star and then referring it to the corner of the calendar.

Mr. JENNER - That is to the entry I have read?

Mrs. PAINE - Put the star saying "LHO purchase of rifle." Then I thought someone is going to wonder about that, I had better put down the date, and did, but it was a busy day, one of the most in my life and I was off by a month as to what day it was.

Mr. JENNER - That is you made the entry October?

Mrs. PAINE - October 23 instead of November.

Mr. JENNER - It should have been November 23?

Mrs. PAINE - It should have been November 23.

Mr. JENNER - And the entry of October 23, which should have been November 23, was an entry on your part indicating the date you wrote on the calendar the star followed by "LHO purchase of rifle" and likewise the date you made an entry?

Mrs. PAINE - On the 20th.

Mr. JENNER - This is the square having the date March 20?

Mrs. PAINE - Yes.

Mr. JENNER - Is that correct?

Mrs. PAINE - I might point out that I didn't know Lee had a middle name until I had occasion to fill out forms for Marina in Parkland Hospital.

Mr. JENNER - That is when you learned that his middle name was Harvey and his initial was H?

Mrs. PAINE - Right.

Edited by David Josephs
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I mean could she really screw up October and November, and then go back and backdate March 20th? For what reason would she do that?

Jim, this is what I'm saying. How could she write down the wrong month THE DAY AFTER THE ASSASSINATION ?

How does she get the right day and the wrong MONTH ? [...]

I agree, guys. Looks like a feeble attempt on Ruth Paine's part to explain away her March 20th, 1963 calendar entry(s) which indicated that she knew that that was when LHO ordered (or had ordered?) the rifle. Very "fishy"....

--Thomas

Speaking of fishy, here's the FBI report on the matter, dated February 11, 1964:

First, Mrs. Paine seems to explain the matter, that she wrote it on the calendar after she heard it on TV.

Then she says that she wrote it "to determine where it fitted in her acquaintenceship with Lee and Marina Oswald".

WHAT THE HELL DOES THAT MEAN ?

Then she says that "she cannot recall the significance of the entry Oct 23".

She assumes that it's an error and she meant "November 23rd ", but that's "provided that November 23 is the night that the information concerning the date Oswald purchased the rifle was released on news telecasts".

THEN SHE SAYS THAT SHE BELIEVES THAT THE INFORMATION WAS BROADCAST AFTER NOVEMBER 23 !!!

This woman is all over the place and I find her story incredible.

Edited by Gil Jesus
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I just find it incredible that she could have gotten the day right and the month wrong. If we were talking about any other period in history, I might concede that it was an honest error, but this is the most important event of the 20th century and the accused assassin spent the night sleeping at your house and you CAN'T REMEMBER THE MONTH ?

Edited by Gil Jesus
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Playing Devil's Advocate here.

RP told the FBI she could not recall the significance of the "Oct 23" notation.

The calendar does indicate that she saw Marina on the 20th. Is it at all possible that the Oct 23 date has nothing to do with the rifle purchase - that it perhaps relates to Marina's "due date"? The baby was born after all, just 3 days prior to that.

Now that leaves the notation about the rifle purchase to deal with. Is it not possible that she did in fact hear about the rifle purchase just as she said post assassination (not necessarily on Nov 23 if we accept the above) , but did not know the specific date in March so just put the note at the top?

As I side issue, we may ponder why she wanted to make the note at all: My guess is she was gathering as much data as she could because she foresaw herself as being a hub of media interest.

I'm satisfied the above is a logical explanation for things that otherwise don't make much sense. RP just genuinely got confused about what note pertained to what incident.

Warning: It would be a grave error to assume that I now see her as totally innocent because of the above. I am absolutely certain she aided in setting Oswald up pre and post assassination. Whether or not she knew exactly what she was setting him up for prior to the assassination is the only uncertainty I have.

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The calendar does indicate that she saw Marina on the 20th. Is it at all possible that the Oct 23 date has nothing to do with the rifle purchase - that it perhaps relates to Marina's "due date"? The baby was born after all, just 3 days prior to that.

One would think that a notation for a date that significant ( a baby due date ) would have remained in her memory. Also, Mrs. Paine makes no mention of a specific "due date" in her testimony, only that the baby was due in mid-October. ( 2 H 458 )

Mrs. Paine was pretty clear in her testimony as to what the date was about:

Mrs. PAINE. I heard on the television that he had purchased a rifle.

Mr. JENNER. When?

Mrs. PAINE. I heard it on November 23.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PAINE. And went back to the page for March, put a little star on March 20 as being a small square, I couldn't fit in all I wanted to say. I just put in a star and then referring it to the corner of the calendar.

Mr. JENNER. That is to the entry I have read?

Mrs. PAINE. Put the star saying "LHO purchase of rifle." Then I thought someone is going to wonder about that, I had better put down the date, and did, but it was a busy day, one of the most in my life and I was off by a month as to what day it was.

Mr. JENNER. That is you made the entry October?

Mrs. PAINE. October 23 instead of November.

Mr. JENNER. It should have been November 23?

Mrs. PAINE. It should have been November 23.

( 9 H 458 )

Ruth Paine kept quite a diary on the Oswalds using her calendar. I find that odd. I also find it odd that a woman who kept such a meticulous record and corrected other mistakes on her calendar would have let this one slide by.

Some people might by her story. I don't.

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Playing Devil's Advocate here.

RP told the FBI she could not recall the significance of the "Oct 23" notation.

The calendar does indicate that she saw Marina on the 20th. Is it at all possible that the Oct 23 date has nothing to do with the rifle purchase - that it perhaps relates to Marina's "due date"? The baby was born after all, just 3 days prior to that.

Now that leaves the notation about the rifle purchase to deal with. Is it not possible that she did in fact hear about the rifle purchase just as she said post assassination (not necessarily on Nov 23 if we accept the above) , but did not know the specific date in March so just put the note at the top?

As I side issue, we may ponder why she wanted to make the note at all: My guess is she was gathering as much data as she could because she foresaw herself as being a hub of media interest.

I'm satisfied the above is a logical explanation for things that otherwise don't make much sense. RP just genuinely got confused about what note pertained to what incident.

Warning: It would be a grave error to assume that I now see her as totally innocent because of the above. I am absolutely certain she aided in setting Oswald up pre and post assassination. Whether or not she knew exactly what she was setting him up for prior to the assassination is the only uncertainty I have.

Great post, Greg. I sincerely admire any researcher who has the mental flexibility to take a devil's advocate approach in his or her attempt to "think through" any problem. :up

--Thomas

Edited by Thomas Graves
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