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Curious Question per Grassy Knoll


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An interesting question was posed on another JFK area about which alleged shooter was on the Grassy Knoll.

Was it Lucien Sarti aka Lucien Sabateur?

Or Was it James Files aka Frank Sutton?

Please comment which one you might think to be the real shooter.

Thanks

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An interesting question was posed on another JFK area about which alleged shooter was on the Grassy Knoll.

Was it Lucien Sarti aka Lucien Sabateur?

Or Was it James Files aka Frank Sutton?

Please comment which one you might think to be the real shooter.

Thanks

Roscoe White, E. Howard Hunt, Jack Lawrence...

Edited by Thomas Graves
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Interesting, Thanks. I know the Roscoe White theme, and E. Howard Hunt. I'll have to explore the third falla.

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Interesting, Thanks. I know the Roscoe White theme, and E. Howard Hunt. I'll have to explore the third falla.

My opinion: In the resized Bell film, you can see a man with a rifle shooting. Next and to the back of him you see a spark. So there were at least 2 people shooting at the President from the Grassy Knoll and behind the picket fence. There may also be someone on the side of the Pergola filming -- it's subjective.

I don't recall who brought the Bell film to our attention recently, but that's my view (no pun intended). I wonder if the conspirators filmed the Assassination from the South side also.

Kathy C

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Hi Kathy,

I tried to view the Bell Film again to look for that. No sucess so far here. Perhaps someone can do some frame grabs and illustrate this. If that is in there, it would be important to develop.

There is little doubt a shot or perhaps shots happened from that area. And there is an extra bullet hole on the grass along the curb in the middle grass area. The odd thing is no one ever mentions looking at the direction of this hole, as the trajectory might show.

The real question might be why Zapruder didn't mention that loud sound to his right side? I propose he knew, since he was part of the Dal-Tex and Ruby insiders. The girl stabilizing him was perhaps more for protection. Oddly, with all the bullets flying around, neither of the ducked for cover as almost everyone else did.

Edited by Jim Phelps
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I'll have to explore the third falla.

How did I just know you would have no clue who Jack Lawrence was?

Thats what happens when you think either James Files or Lucien Sarti was involved in the assassination

You lose sight of the real important suspicous people that could have been an assassin

Jack Lawrence in my opinion is about as suspicous as it gets

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Dean,

I don't think it was no clue. I'd read about Jack Lawrence some time back, more than a decade ago, and was overly rusty on what his story was about. I needed a refresher look.

I dismissed the James Files story, because it has too many errors. That faked up shell casing story was really bad--wrong date codes on shell. Who'd take the time to bite a shell case and put it on a fence with fingerprints. Files gets really close, but I think he is a mislead off the real shooters. The Sarti story fits politically, as I don't believe they'd use domestic shooters.

Mentioning Rosco White is about as opportunitic as it gets. He got knocked out of the race long time back. Jack Lawrence story is interesting, but he isn't a big enough player. I am not really excited by the I borrowed the dealership's car for a date, then ended up late due to parade, parked behind Dealey Plaza, and had to walk the rest of the way into work. Somehow, I think a real shooter would have a lot more aforethought applied.

I always keep in mind what the larger issues are. Castro's big complaint was "clan corporatism", as he hated the little guys getting little. Batista became as Impearlistic as they come and killed lot of people. The US corporate pay offs only made Batista worse.

Obviously, JFK and Castro got to talking and they found they had issue in common. JFK understood Cuba's Plight. JFK had the Mil/Ind networks corporatism problems and Castro's Cuba had a raging tyrant in control worse than Moussolini.

This mess was not just a Texas plot, nor a Mafia get even deal, it was because JFK located the systemic issues of corporatism gone out of control to the point of not being good for the people.

Corporatism's goals in the old days was to help the people, and some even religion ordained.

PERMINDEX's associations with lots of Fascists tells a story of what they liked. What they wanted to exploit was letting the American Public exist in the Slumber, not conscious enough to see that Freedom slipped away from them.

These issues stemmed from higher up than the Mafia. The Mafia was just a tool to exploit for those in power.

It took way more than just the Mafia to pull off this massive a cover up. Ike told us where to look: Clan Corporatism. JFK looked and found it in Cuba, against him in the White House, and at the heart of the Joint Chiefs urgings for war.

Clan Corporatism = Mil / Ind Network problem.

The real hitters won't be someone late for work, or even showing up for work. The real hitters are going to go underground really fast, forget going to work. Jack Lawrence is just too much a fly by night story, might make a patsy or backup plan thing.

Edited by Jim Phelps
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Dean,

I don't think it was no clue. I'd read about Jack Lawrence some time back, more than a decade ago, and was overly rusty on what his story was about. I needed a refresher look.

I dismissed the James Files story, because it has too many errors. That faked up shell casing story was really bad--wrong date codes on shell. Who'd take the time to bite a shell case and put it on a fence with fingerprints. Files gets really close, but I think he is a mislead off the real shooters. The Sarti story fits politically, as I don't believe they'd use domestic shooters.

Mentioning Rosco White is about as opportunitic as it gets. He got knocked out of the race long time back. Jack Lawrence story is interesting, but he isn't a big enough player. I am not really excited by the I borrowed the dealership's car for a date, then ended up late due to parade, parked behind Dealey Plaza, and had to walk the rest of the way into work. Somehow, I think a real shooter would have a lot more aforethought applied.

I always keep in mind what the larger issues are. Castro's big complaint was "clan corporatism", as he hated the little guys getting little. Batista became as Impearlistic as they come and killed lot of people. The US corporate pay offs only made Batista worse.

Obviously, JFK and Castro got to talking and they found they had issue in common. JFK understood Cuba's Plight. JFK had the Mil/Ind networks corporatism problems and Castro's Cuba had a raging tyrant in control worse than Moussolini.

This mess was not just a Texas plot, nor a Mafia get even deal, it was because JFK located the systemic issues of corporatism gone out of control to the point of not being good for the people.

Corporatism's goals in the old days was to help the people, and some even religion ordained.

PERMINDEX's associations with lots of Fascists tells a story of what they liked. What they wanted to exploit was letting the American Public exist in the Slumber, not conscious enough to see that Freedom slipped away from them.

These issues stemmed from higher up than the Mafia. The Mafia was just a tool to exploit for those in power.

It took way more than just the Mafia to pull off this massive a cover up. Ike told us where to look: Clan Corporatism. JFK looked and found it in Cuba, against him in the White House, and at the heart of the Joint Chiefs urgings for war.

Clan Corporatism = Mil / Ind Network problem.

The real hitters won't be someone late for work, or even showing up for work. The real hitters are going to go underground really fast, forget going to work. Jack Lawrence is just too much a fly by night story, might make a patsy or backup plan thing.

There was also a shooter named "Frenchy." Also Charles Rogers, who the following year killed his parents because they were suspicious over his part in the assassination. They'd seen the tramp photos. He murdered them and cut their bodies in such a way that they filled the entire refrigerator. It became "The Ice Box Murders." And he was never seen again. Was either a shooter? I don't know. These are just names I read over the years.

Kathy C

Edited by Kathleen Collins
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One obvious question is why Marylin Sitzman seems to have missed the noise of a shot to the right of her, as well as any shooters:

[from Josiah Thompsons Six seconds in Dallas, Interview from Nov. 1966]

Thompson: Could I ask you something about your gaze and actions immediately after the head shot? On the trailer of Mr. Zapruder's film, we noticed that he turned to his right and photographed the general area of the stockade fence, the trees and the stockade fence and that particular area. Did you turn in that direction after the head shot too?

Sitzman: In a way, I have a feeling this: He might have heard the kids throw down the coke bottles and heard that crash or else maybe it was just what he saw could have caused a reaction where he'd jump, but I don't think it was the sound of bullets, because I didn't jump.

Thompson: No.

Sitzman: Because the pop bottle crashing was much louder than the shots were.

Thompson: No, this is a slightly different thing. I remarked earlier that in the Zapruder film, around frame 318, 319, we see a very sudden jiggle in the film as if the photographer was startled by a noise or by seeing something, and earlier you suggested ... well, what did you suggest?

Sitzman: Well, seeing what we saw when the bullet hit Kennedy's head and it opening up like this, you don't stand there very calmly and do nothing. I'm sure ... it ... to me, it would be a normal reaction to kind of jump or something.

Thompson: In other words, one would be startled by what one saw there rather than necessarily by what one heard.

Sitzman: Sure, sure. If you're the type of person that would react that way. Some would just immediately freeze. Some people would ... Some women would've probably passed out, some ... rather bloody ....

Thompson: Darn right. I know. I've seen the films too. Now, to get to this area between the stockade fence and the cement abutment, or small mall: Did you turn after the shot to look in this general area?

Sitzman: Yes.

Thompson: And did you see anyone in this area?

Sitzman: No, just the two colored people running back.

Thompson: I see. They were already ... they'd gotten up from the bench and were now running around into the gap made between the stockade fence and the pergola.

Sitzman: Either in the gap there or back in the alcove. I don't recall which way they went. I saw ... I heard the bottles crash, and of course I looked that way, to my right, right away, and they were getting up and running towards the back. And I turned back to see if there was anything in the front street, because then they didn't affect me one way or another.

Thompson: To see if anything else was going on. Had you seen them sitting on the bench before you stood next to them?

Sitzman: Oh year, yes. Everybody is ... oh, ten or fifteen minutes before, everybody was milling around down there, trying to find a place to stand and everything, and I know when we went over to get up on the marble thing, they were already sitting there.

Thompson: Well, did you notice at any point whether either of these two moved up to the end of the, to the point of the wall?

Sitzman: No. They may have. I don't know.

Thompson: Of course, you were looking at the parade at that point, and you wouldn't have seen what they did.

Sitzman: Yeah. I always have the feeling that they were still sitting on the bench, because when I looked over there, they were getting up from the bench.

Thompson: Marilyn, I've showed you this picture, which is approximately Nix frame 24, the famous frame which shows what some people believe to be a vehicle with a man on top of it. We discussed this earlier, and I take it to be your definite and certain opinion that if there was a vehicle there it was not out in this plateau area.

Sitzman: That's correct. This is one thing that you couldn't miss.

----

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Thanks for the citation. Definitely interesting remarks.

Sounds like a mighty flakey story to me. Coke bottle making more noise than gunshots down the street or just to their right. Sounding like the alleged bottle thing was the gunshot to the head.

I'd suggest something more than a bottle dropped noise.

I wonder if Sitzman could tell the difference between a Corsican and a person of color.

I'll have to look up NIX 24.

Edited by Jim Phelps
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Interesting, Thanks. I know the Roscoe White theme, and E. Howard Hunt. I'll have to explore the third falla.

My opinion: In the resized Bell film, you can see a man with a rifle shooting. Next and to the back of him you see a spark. So there were at least 2 people shooting at the President from the Grassy Knoll and behind the picket fence. There may also be someone on the side of the Pergola filming -- it's subjective.

I don't recall who brought the Bell film to our attention recently, but that's my view (no pun intended). I wonder if the conspirators filmed the Assassination from the South side also.

Kathy C

Hi Kathleen..

I've looked and looked and have not seen a "resized" Bell... and the Bell I do have shows the limo speeding away just after the shots...

Do you have a link to this Bell study by any chance.. or frame grabs of what you are referring to?

thanks

DJ

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One obvious question is why Marylin Sitzman seems to have missed the noise of a shot to the right of her, as well as any shooters...

If there was a shooter to her right, maybe he (or she LOL) used a silencer?

--Thomas

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Perhaps this right side of Zapruder area is about as rigged as the 3 shells laying lined up under the 6 th floor TSBD window.

Everything looks far too rigged. Zapruder in perfect area to film. Zapruder Film preempts the LBJ story in Life Magazine. Zapruder family makes millions from film. Sure smells of a cover story.

It is rather odd that others seem to have heard the Grassy Knoll shot's report sound, and lots go running up the Knoll's sidewalk and steps to look for a shooter. And Sitzman doesn't hear a gunshot to her right. But she hears a bottle smash that is louder than the other gunshots.

Sounds like a real case of Dal-Tex cover stories due to the same Dal-Tex factor that had Zapruder in the perfect spot. They rigged the 6th floor, why not this area too.

Me thinks this bottle loud sound is the gunshot and perhaps the bottle issue is a cover story for a gunshot.

It does appear there were two persons of color in this area, even leaning on the Pergola's Wall area. That would be the perfect spot to fire a shot at JFK passing and not miss. Just lean on the wall and put the gun between them and no one sees the gun fire the shot.

These two persons are never found, yet they find nearly everyone else in the Plaza's names.

Still looking for the NIX Frame 24 to post. Doesn't show up on Google.

Edited by Jim Phelps
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Perhaps this right side of Zapruder area is about as rigged as the 3 shells laying lined up under the 6 th floor TSBD window.

Everything looks far too rigged. Zapruder in perfect area to film. Zapruder Film preempts the LBJ story in Life Magazine. Zapruder family makes millions from film. Sure smells of a cover story.

It is rather odd that others seem to have heard the Grassy Knoll shot's report sound, and lots go running up the Knoll's sidewalk and steps to look for a shooter. And Sitzman doesn't hear a gunshot to her right. But she hears a bottle smash that is louder than the other gunshots.

Sounds like a real case of Dal-Tex cover stories due to the same Dal-Tex factor that had Zapruder in the perfect spot. They rigged the 6th floor, why not this area too.

Me thinks this bottle loud sound is the gunshot and perhaps the bottle issue is a cover story for a gunshot.

It does appear there were two persons of color in this area, even leaning on the Pergola's Wall area. That would be the perfect spot to fire a shot at JFK passing and not miss. Just lean on the wall and put the gun between them and no one sees the gun fire the shot.

These two persons are never found, yet they find nearly everyone else in the Plaza's names.

Still looking for the NIX Frame 24 to post. Doesn't show up on Google.

I think that, in order to avoid confusion and mis-communication, we need to make it clear in our posts whether or not, when we say that something did (or did not) happen "to the right of Sitzman/Zapruder," we're talking about it from their perspective, i.e. "from/to their right," or from our perspective, i.e. "from/to our right" or "from/to our right." Tedious I know, but important I think so that we can be sure we're "on the same page."

--Thomas

Edited by Thomas Graves
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